The Last Kickoff By The Patriots... (1 Viewer)

[dpbuddha]

Of course the Ravens would decline, but for a moment I thought I was a genius during the game.

 

[eom]

why does this thread exist?

 

[David Yudkin]

I mentioned this in the game thread. The option would have been take the ball where it went out of bounds or 30 yards from the spot of the kick (which would mean at the 5 yards line).

 

[moleculo]

Of course the Ravens would decline, but for a moment I thought I was a genius during the game.

huh?

 

[General Tso]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

 

[ThePhillyKid]

what is this?

 

[ThePhillyKid]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

An onside kick, that would have been a good move. Yep, even if they don't recover, Ravens get the ball between the 20 - 30 instead of the 20.

 

[encaitar]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

 

[ThePhillyKid]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

 

[dpbuddha]

I mentioned this in the game thread. The option would have been take the ball where it went out of bounds or 30 yards from the spot of the kick (which would mean at the 5 yards line).

So you try to coffin corner the kick and if it goes OB then you give Balt terrible field position...if it goes through the endzone then they get it on the 20.Hey eom...if you don't like the thread, don't open it.

 

[David Yudkin]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Since you asked . . .First play of the game:

DAL/PHI 2003

First Quarter

Dal--R.Williams 37 kickoff return (B.Cundiff kick), 0:03.

LINK

 

[Dt's Mules]

coffin corner would be the appropriate play

 

[Spartans Rule]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Casey Fitzsimmons of the Lions returned an onside kick for a TD against the Bears earlier this season.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Teams usually flop on it because all they're trying to do is gain possession and run out the clock. They're already up by 14 or whatever.But if the receiving team happens to be down by 3, they will not necessarily just try to flop on it.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

coffin corner would be the appropriate play

I'm kind of surprised Belichick didn't think of that.

 

[fflnut]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Counter question would be, how often do teams return the ball for a TD when the kick off is sent out of the endzone. Less risk.

 

[snorlax]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Counter question would be, how often do teams return the ball for a TD when the kick off is sent out of the endzone. Less risk.

This is a bad argument. How often do teams score touchdowns when the other team is taking a knee to run out the clock?

 

[encaitar]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Counter question would be, how often do teams return the ball for a TD when the kick off is sent out of the endzone. Less risk.

This is a bad argument. How often do teams score touchdowns when the other team is taking a knee to run out the clock?

I think that's the point. You onside kick it an you've made yourself vunerable for return, even if it is a slight chance. You kick it out of the endzone and you KNOW they don't return it.

 

[eagles2007]

the correct answer is to bring out your punter and have him pooch it as high as he can.

why it was just blasted through the end zone is beyond me.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

One more thing is kicking it out of the end zone doesn't start the clock.

 

[porkins]

Wouldn't kicking it OB give the ravens the ball at the 40?

What is this coffin corner you guys mentioned?

 

[David Yudkin]

Wouldn't kicking it OB give the ravens the ball at the 40?What is this coffin corner you guys mentioned?

The official rule is that a ball kicked out of bounds will result in either:1) The receiving team taking possession at the spot the ball went out of bounds2) The receiving team taking possession 30 yards from the spot of the kickoffThe reason everyone always thinks it's the 40 yard line is that the ball is almost always kicked from the 30 yard line. So 30+ 30 = 60 (which translats to the 40 yard line).In this case, the Pats were kicking from the Ravens 35 yard line. If the Pats angled the kickoff just outside the corner of the endzone pylon, the Ravens would have to pick between the 5 yard line or the 1 yard line if the kick worked out perfectly.

 

[johnny_q]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...

1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.

4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return.

Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...

1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.

2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

 

[David Yudkin]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...

1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.

4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return.

Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...

1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.

2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

If your kicker can't get the ball out of bounds kicking from the opponent's 35 yard line you must have an 8 year old kicker. If you angle the kick for the end zone, worst case scenario you kick it through the end zone and it is a touchback anyway.

 

[Statler & Waldorf]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Counter question would be, how often do teams return the ball for a TD when the kick off is sent out of the endzone. Less risk.

If the Ravens got the recovery of the onside kick, then they would have gained 5 more yards and started at the 25 instead of teh 20. That last hail mary at the end of the game missed by 1 or 2 yards, so it was a good thing for the Pats that they didn't go for the onsides. Granted, this is all assuming that the same chain of events followed the kickoff that we did have that got them in position to toss it up like that to end the game.

 

[johnny_q]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...

1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.

4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return.

Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...

1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.

2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

If your kicker can't get the ball out of bounds kicking from the opponent's 35 yard line you must have an 8 year old kicker. If you angle the kick for the end zone, worst case scenario you kick it through the end zone and it is a touchback anyway.

Sounds easy enough. But, I think BB had that 15 yard punt in his head and with the wind & the Kyle Boller combo, I think he decided to just take all of the risk out of it.

 

[mbuehner]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

How often does the team about to lose the game recover an onsides kick as opposed to the team trying to ice a victory? A quick scoop lateral and its off to the races- particularly when half the Patriots are scrounging in the mud.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return. Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

What about a squib kick? Rolls down the middle, very little chance any sort of blocking pattern can be set up because of how close the Pats were. It pretty much makes the Ravens have to pick up the ball and start the clock. Or worst case, it goes into the end zone for a touchback. I thought getting the Ravens to run some time off the clock would've been a better move.

 

[mad sweeney]

I thought for sure they were going to try an on-sides kick. The ball only has to go ten yards, which is the 25 yard line. You have a 30% chance of recovering the ball. And if you don't, the opponent only gains 5 yards (versus kicking the ball out of the end zone). I was very surprised Belichek didn't recognize this.

The only problem is that the receiving team CAN advance the ball on an onsides kick and the right bounce could've resulted in a return for a TD by Baltimore. I thought about it too, but Belichick did the right thing by kicking it through the endzone.

But how often do recovering teams advance the ball more than a few yards?Usually have to just flop on it!

Counter question would be, how often do teams return the ball for a TD when the kick off is sent out of the endzone. Less risk.

If the Ravens got the recovery of the onside kick, then they would have gained 5 more yards and started at the 25 instead of teh 20. That last hail mary at the end of the game missed by 1 or 2 yards, so it was a good thing for the Pats that they didn't go for the onsides. Granted, this is all assuming that the same chain of events followed the kickoff that we did have that got them in position to toss it up like that to end the game.

Some time would've ticked off the clock too. I don't remember how much time was left at the last play, but if 3-5 seconds run off the clock maybe that last HM doesn't even happen.

 

[David Yudkin]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return. Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

What about a squib kick? Rolls down the middle, very little chance any sort of blocking pattern can be set up because of how close the Pats were. It pretty much makes the Ravens have to pick up the ball and start the clock. Or worst case, it goes into the end zone for a touchback. I thought getting the Ravens to run some time off the clock would've been a better move.

The clock would not start until the Ravens fielded and moved the ball. If it rolled all the way to the end zone and they recovered and kneeled down, it would not have run off any clock.

 

[dgreen]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return. Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

What about a squib kick? Rolls down the middle, very little chance any sort of blocking pattern can be set up because of how close the Pats were. It pretty much makes the Ravens have to pick up the ball and start the clock. Or worst case, it goes into the end zone for a touchback. I thought getting the Ravens to run some time off the clock would've been a better move.

My thoughts were either a light squib kick to around the 10 or a pop up in the middle of the field to around the 10.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think Belichik made the right call. You have to take all of the risks/rewards into consideration...

1) Kick out of bounds. The risk here is that you're asking your kicker to do something that he usually doesn't do. While it sounds like an easy task, it can easily be botched (such as the 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter). The reward is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

2) Coffin corner. Again, we saw the Patriot's punter's attempt on one of the previous possessions that ended up as a 15 yard punt earlier in the 4th quarter. Also, if your kicker doesn't get the ball out of bounds for some reason, you are allowing for the possibility of a return. The reward again is that you can pin the Ravens deep in their end zone.

3) Onside kick. Obvious risk/reward...risk is the Ravens can return the kick, reward is that the Patriots can recover or tacklet the Ravens returner around the 25 yard line.

4) Kick through the end zone. There is basically no risk here. You are asking your kicker to do something that he does every day. You also aren't allowing for any return.

Also, there are two other factors that I'm sure BB took into account...

1) The wind. Asking your kicker to do something that takes some skill is a lot harder to do with an outside force working against you.

2) The Raven's offense. Force Kyle Boller to march his team 50 yards with 45 seconds to go and only one timeout. From what happened, you can see that they looked out of sync and only got two real plays off (not counting the two deep balls...not sure why they didn't try a 20-yard out and go for the FG)

What about a squib kick? Rolls down the middle, very little chance any sort of blocking pattern can be set up because of how close the Pats were. It pretty much makes the Ravens have to pick up the ball and start the clock. Or worst case, it goes into the end zone for a touchback. I thought getting the Ravens to run some time off the clock would've been a better move.

The clock would not start until the Ravens fielded and moved the ball. If it rolled all the way to the end zone and they recovered and kneeled down, it would not have run off any clock.

Correct, that's why I put in the bolded part. But with as close as the Pats were it would be a very risky gamble for the Ravens to not pick up the live ball as it's rolling towards the endzone. I think the chances that it would have to be picked up by the Ravens are way higher than the chances it rolls freely into the endzone. And like I said, that's pretty much the worst that would happen to the Pats is a touchback. And it's the only option that actually would take up any game time and it would still pin the Ravins inside the 20.

 

[Pat Patriot]

The receiving team actually has the option to take the ball 30 yards from the spot of the kick or have the kicking team backed up 5 yards and have them rekick. Baltimore would have obviously chosen the rekick rather than take it at their 5.