The OTHER RBs (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

depending on how you slice & dice 'em, above two are often put in same group as bush & deangelo williams among "big four" RB prospects from 2006 draft class that are likely to go in first round...

while there is a clear & obvious consensus by many scouts that bush is #1... deangelo williams seems to be cited as the #2 & next best RB by many scouts (though admittedly quite a few may like lendale white in #2 slot... where they ultimately go in draft could easily be a function of a particular team's system & scheme... williams may be best "pure" runner with more complete skills & well rounded ability... no doubt white is the stronger north/south, bruising-type power runner)...

another reason i wanted to focus on white & maroney is that i already felt like i have a pretty good handle on bush & williams, but had more questions about white & maroney...

i do still have some questions about williams... at 5'8" 207, is he a westbrook clone with questions about his ability to run tough inside in the NFL... also, if he is catastrophically overmatched in pass protection, will this limit his touches & prevent him from being three-down back?

nonetheless, for whatever reasons, i felt like i had even less of a handle on white & maroney... anyway, i saw some more extended highlights on nfl network, where resident draft expert mayock & guest corey chavous dissected the top four (they had different order, but not surprisingly same RBs... mayock actually has maroney #2 & williams #4 which is ultra-contrarian & against the grain ((he also has cutler #1, ahead of leinert & young))... i haven't seen any other high profile scouts/commentators have maroney that high or williams that low)...

i came away extremely impressed with white & maroney... i have actually seen white a lot in game action past three seasons (much less of maroney)... but there is nothing like having the opportunity to see a more detailed breakdown & film analysis...

chavous showed one film where white flashed the feet, balance, movement skills, shiftiness in the hole, elusiveness in the open field, burst & explosiveness of a much smaller RB... maybe because i saw him used in third & short & goal line situations a lot, i hadn't noticed he was much more well rounded than i thought...

this was one of my more extended looks at maroney...

to be cont.

 

[beto]

I really need to get the nfl network.

I was super impressed with Maroney in '04 and thru the 1st half of '05. I even had him rated above Bush. Since then I have moved Bush and White above him after I had a chance ot watch them play.

 

[MLBrandow]

In your synopsis, you skipped over what left you so impressed with Maroney? I'd really like to hear it (not being sarcastic, I just don't get the program, and would like to hear some good support of him).

I am definitely a large supporter of the Anti-Maroney Fan Club. I see him falling very far, and don't believe he will make any real impact in the NFL beyond maybe a 3rd down or change of pace back.

First off, people talk about how he would be such a match-made in heaven for the Colts or the Vikings.

Well, both love to pass to their RBs. Maroney is not a pass-catching RB. If he was, he'd have more than 21 career receptions over three seasons.

By contrast, take a look at Edge. He averages about 50 a season.

Also, take a look at the recent guys that have come out of this system and their college numbers:

2005 - Laurence Maroney (ju.) 281 / 1464 / 5.2ypc / 10TD

2005 - Gary Russell (so.) 186 / 1130 / 6.1ypc / 18TD

2004 - Laurence Maroney (so.) 217 / 1348 / 6.2ypc / 12TD

2004 - Marion Barber III (ju.) 231 / 1269 / 5.5ypc / 11TD

2003 - Marion Barber III (so.) 207 / 1196 / 5.8ypc / 17TD

2003 - Laurence Maroney (fr.) 162 / 1121 / 6.9ypc / 10TD

2002 - Terry Jackson II (so.) 238 / 1318 / 5.5ypc / 6TD

2002 - Thomas Tapeh (sn.) 182 / 905 / 5.0ypc / 8TD

See a trend here?

You know where any of these guys are currently?

Thomas Tapeh - 5th round pick by Eagles in 2004, buried under depth chart. 12 / 42 / 3.5ypc / 0TD career (none in 2005)

Terry Jackson II - undrafted, not on an NFL team

Marion Barber III - really the only "success" story here. 2005 4th round pick by Dallas, wasn't expected to make the team, worked his way onto depth chart. Rookie stats - 138 / 538 / 3.9ypc / 5TD

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

 

[Bojang0301]

i do still have some questions about williams... at 5'8" 207, is he a westbrook clone with questions about his ability to run tough inside in the NFL... also, if he is catastrophically overmatched in pass protection, will this limit his touches & prevent him from being three-down back?

Dude his strength is running between the tackles and he has great vision to do so. His weakness may be his hands. Time will tell but he looks more like an LT clone than a Westbrook clone.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Maroney reminds me a lot of Shaun Alexander the way he runs.

 

[Bojang0301]

In your synopsis, you skipped over what left you so impressed with Maroney? I'd really like to hear it (not being sarcastic, I just don't get the program, and would like to hear some good support of him).

I am definitely a large supporter of the Anti-Maroney Fan Club. I see him falling very far, and don't believe he will make any real impact in the NFL beyond maybe a 3rd down or change of pace back.

First off, people talk about how he would be such a match-made in heaven for the Colts or the Vikings.

Well, both love to pass to their RBs. Maroney is not a pass-catching RB. If he was, he'd have more than 21 career receptions over three seasons.

By contrast, take a look at Edge. He averages about 50 a season.

Also, take a look at the recent guys that have come out of this system and their college numbers:

2005 - Laurence Maroney (ju.) 281 / 1464 / 5.2ypc / 10TD

2005 - Gary Russell (so.) 186 / 1130 / 6.1ypc / 18TD

2004 - Laurence Maroney (so.) 217 / 1348 / 6.2ypc / 12TD

2004 - Marion Barber III (ju.) 231 / 1269 / 5.5ypc / 11TD

2003 - Marion Barber III (so.) 207 / 1196 / 5.8ypc / 17TD

2003 - Laurence Maroney (fr.) 162 / 1121 / 6.9ypc / 10TD

2002 - Terry Jackson II (so.) 238 / 1318 / 5.5ypc / 6TD

2002 - Thomas Tapeh (sn.) 182 / 905 / 5.0ypc / 8TD

See a trend here?

You know where any of these guys are currently?

Thomas Tapeh - 5th round pick by Eagles in 2004, buried under depth chart. 12 / 42 / 3.5ypc / 0TD career (none in 2005)

Terry Jackson II - undrafted, not on an NFL team

Marion Barber III - really the only "success" story here. 2005 4th round pick by Dallas, wasn't expected to make the team, worked his way onto depth chart. Rookie stats - 138 / 538 / 3.9ypc / 5TD

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

OSU, Penn State, Michigan, Iowa not to mention all non conference games. He has shouldered a full load every year even when splitting carries and has most definitly faced top competition.

 

[MLBrandow]

i do still have some questions about williams... at 5'8" 207, is he a westbrook clone with questions about his ability to run tough inside in the NFL... also, if he is catastrophically overmatched in pass protection, will this limit his touches & prevent him from being three-down back?

Dude his strength is running between the tackles and he has great vision to do so. His weakness may be his hands. Time will tell but he looks more like an LT clone than a Westbrook clone.

I have to agree here. He's the most complete back in this draft, and his skill sets should pretty solidly translate to the NFL.

 

[jgb95]

MLB i imagine the reason he didn't have that many rec is becuase they run the ball 90% of the time and he still gets the yards.

just my 2 cents.

 

[MLBrandow]

OSU, Penn State, Michigan, Iowa not to mention all non conference games. He has shouldered a full load every year even when splitting carries and has most definitly faced top competition.

Like I said, those numbers are VERY skewed. This backfield averaged 565 carries a year for those last four years. (424 per 12 games, adjusted to 16 games per NFL regular season).http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/OFF-..._1=3&_1:col_1=4

See those stats? Over half of the top teams all have backs that split time. That's all that Maroney is. He's going to split time in the NFL, and that's not worth a first round pick at all to me. If I'm drafting a RB in the first round, he'd better be able to be a feature back.

And if he isn't going to be, he damn well better be completely amazing every time he touches the ball (cough Reggie Bush). Maroney is not that either.

MLB i imagine the reason he didn't have that many rec is becuase they run the ball 90% of the time and he still gets the yards.

just my 2 cents.

Yes, but that was part of my point. How can you tout him as a great receiver if he has never even proven that he can? I have great hands, but that doesn't mean it would translate to the NFL.You'd like your first-round pick to not have more than one question mark at the most, and probably none (durability? raw? motor? etc etc). When you combine all of these factors up, it raises three or four.

Does he have the hands? Can he handle a full load? What makes him different from the four other runners who cloned his numbers in college and are fighting for roster spots in the NFL? How will he do against a top defense when he doesn't have another back force-feeding the defense an extra 20 carries a game?

Way too many question marks for me if I'm a GM.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Maroney had 281 carries last year. How many carries do you think they should have gave him? Bush and White only had 200 a piece.

 

[AB in DC]

Way too many question marks for me if I'm a GM.

All draft picks have way too many question marks. Why is Maroney any more questionable than other late first round possibilities?

 

[TheRegulator]

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

Are you serious? Minny's NC schedule is a bunch of cupcakes every year, but Maroney has performed well against the best teams in the Big Ten. He isn't on a Div 1-AA team, so the bolded comment is just laughable. I also think your critisism of shouldering a full load is bunk as well since he still was carrying as much a normal starter would since all that the Gophers do on offense is run. Plus, I bet if he was Calhoun and getting 40 carries a game, you would argue he was overworked. Minny never throws to their RB's--that is why he doesn't have the catches. Yes, he is unproven to some extent in that area, but I am sure scouts have a handle on that. The lack of catches is NOT from dropping balls--Its from the design of their offense. Go back the last 5+ years and you will see very few catches by any RB.My biggest questions regarding Maroney would be his durability and what caused his drop off the 2H of last year. Also, how much of an impact does his stellar offensive line have on his stats. Maroney was an absolute stud in 2004--if he could have come out he probably would've been the #1 RB taken. He was a much better NFL prospect than Barber. He has a remarkable mix of both raw speed and power--but what happened the last half of 2005. He was knicked up a bunch of games--was there an underlying injury or was he just trying not jeopordize his draft status?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

My opinion:

White - Very underrated. I agree with what you said Bob; he has the feet/quickness of a smaller back, but the bulk to run through tackles. I think he'll be fantastic in the NFL. Maybe....maybe....the best of the bunch

Maroney - I agree with whomever said that they liked him more last year. I think he's slowed down some. I'm not sure that I could say that he's already peaked, or anything. But I think he needs to show a little more desire to be great. I have him 4th and wouldn't be that surprised if someone else in the RB class (Norwood, Harrison, Addai) passed him within a year or two.

 

[EBF]

I agree about White. My gut says he'll lead all of these rookie backs in rushing yards and TDs, and that it might not even be that close. I still think Bush is the more dynamic talent, but White better fits the mold of guys like Shaun Alexander and Larry Johnson.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

Are you serious? Minny's NC schedule is a bunch of cupcakes every year, but Maroney has performed well against the best teams in the Big Ten. He isn't on a Div 1-AA team, so the bolded comment is just laughable. I also think your critisism of shouldering a full load is bunk as well since he still was carrying as much a normal starter would since all that the Gophers do on offense is run. Plus, I bet if he was Calhoun and getting 40 carries a game, you would argue he was overworked. Minny never throws to their RB's--that is why he doesn't have the catches. Yes, he is unproven to some extent in that area, but I am sure scouts have a handle on that. The lack of catches is NOT from dropping balls--Its from the design of their offense. Go back the last 5+ years and you will see very few catches by any RB.My biggest questions regarding Maroney would be his durability and what caused his drop off the 2H of last year. Also, how much of an impact does his stellar offensive line have on his stats. Maroney was an absolute stud in 2004--if he could have come out he probably would've been the #1 RB taken. He was a much better NFL prospect than Barber. He has a remarkable mix of both raw speed and power--but what happened the last half of 2005. He was knicked up a bunch of games--was there an underlying injury or was he just trying not jeopordize his draft status?

Word is that he had an ankle injury and wasn't right for most of the second half of the season.

 

[BigJim®]

It's a great topic but to me these guys are impossible to rank predraft. Either guy could land in a situation that pushes him over the other. Maroney in Indianapolis? He competes with both Bush and D.Williams in my estimation. Maroney to SF and L.White to Green Bay? You have to go 3.) L.White, 4.) Maroney.

All things being equal (as they won't be) I'd go with Maroney. I've been very harsh on Maroney due to his 2005 college season, but I do think he's extremely talented. My guess is most people will say LenDale White is #3. It's close. I would feel perfectly confident picking 1-4 this year.

 

[Chaos Commish]

to be cont.

 

[loxoscel]

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

Are you serious? Minny's NC schedule is a bunch of cupcakes every year, but Maroney has performed well against the best teams in the Big Ten. He isn't on a Div 1-AA team, so the bolded comment is just laughable. I also think your critisism of shouldering a full load is bunk as well since he still was carrying as much a normal starter would since all that the Gophers do on offense is run. Plus, I bet if he was Calhoun and getting 40 carries a game, you would argue he was overworked. Minny never throws to their RB's--that is why he doesn't have the catches. Yes, he is unproven to some extent in that area, but I am sure scouts have a handle on that. The lack of catches is NOT from dropping balls--Its from the design of their offense. Go back the last 5+ years and you will see very few catches by any RB.My biggest questions regarding Maroney would be his durability and what caused his drop off the 2H of last year. Also, how much of an impact does his stellar offensive line have on his stats. Maroney was an absolute stud in 2004--if he could have come out he probably would've been the #1 RB taken. He was a much better NFL prospect than Barber. He has a remarkable mix of both raw speed and power--but what happened the last half of 2005. He was knicked up a bunch of games--was there an underlying injury or was he just trying not jeopordize his draft status?

Taking the highlighted portion here...I believe Maroney had 16 carries for 48 yards against the PSU defense this past season...not real sure about you...but that's downright pitiful in my book.

 

[MLBrandow]

Maybe you guys see something different than I do, and i know the whole "college stats don't tell you anything, Ryan Leaf this".... but I can't understand justifying a first or even a second round pick on a guy you think is an "all-around player" who hasn't faced top competition, shouldered a full load, been a receiver out of the backfield, and comes from a traditionally rusher-friendly offense.

Are you serious? Minny's NC schedule is a bunch of cupcakes every year, but Maroney has performed well against the best teams in the Big Ten. He isn't on a Div 1-AA team, so the bolded comment is just laughable. I also think your critisism of shouldering a full load is bunk as well since he still was carrying as much a normal starter would since all that the Gophers do on offense is run. Plus, I bet if he was Calhoun and getting 40 carries a game, you would argue he was overworked. Minny never throws to their RB's--that is why he doesn't have the catches. Yes, he is unproven to some extent in that area, but I am sure scouts have a handle on that. The lack of catches is NOT from dropping balls--Its from the design of their offense. Go back the last 5+ years and you will see very few catches by any RB.My biggest questions regarding Maroney would be his durability and what caused his drop off the 2H of last year. Also, how much of an impact does his stellar offensive line have on his stats. Maroney was an absolute stud in 2004--if he could have come out he probably would've been the #1 RB taken. He was a much better NFL prospect than Barber. He has a remarkable mix of both raw speed and power--but what happened the last half of 2005. He was knicked up a bunch of games--was there an underlying injury or was he just trying not jeopordize his draft status?

Taking the highlighted portion here...I believe Maroney had 16 carries for 48 yards against the PSU defense this past season...not real sure about you...but that's downright pitiful in my book.

For the purposes of this debate, I will conclude that the "best teams in the Big Ten" refer to any team with a positive conference record (5-3 or better). That includes Penn State (7-1), Ohio State (7-1), Wisconsin (5-3), Northwestern (5-3), Michigan (5-3), and Iowa (5-3).@Penn State 16 / 48 / 3.0ypc / 0TD

Ohio State 25 / 127 / 5.1ypc / 1TD

Wisconsin 43 / 258 / 6.0ypc / 1TD

DNP Northwestern

@Michigan 36 / 129 / 3.6ypc / 1TD

Iowa 7 / 10 / 1.4ypc / 0TD

Total: 127 / 572 / 4.45ypc / 3TD

Avg: 25.4 / 114.4 / 4.45ypc / .6TD

I would add Gary Russell, but he has not gone to the NFL yet, and would serve no purpose for this analysis. I suppose you can construe the data any way you like, but to put it into perspective and show you where I'm coming from:

2004: Marion Barber III / Laurence Maroney v. "top conference opponents": Iowa (7-1), Michigan (7-1), Wisconsin (6-2), Northwestern (5-3)

Iowa: Barber - 29 / 167 / 5.8ypc / 0TD; Maroney - 19 / 156 / 8.2ypc / 3TD

@Michigan: Barber - 13 / 40 / 3.1ypc / 1TD; Maroney - 19 / 145 / 7.6ypc / 1TD

@Wisconsin: Barber - 7 / 34 / 4.9ypc / 0TD; Maroney - 8 / 57 / 7.1ypc / 1TD

Northwestern: Barber - 22 / 86 / 3.9ypc / 0TD; Maroney - 24 / 145 / 6.0ypc / 1TD

Total: Barber - 71 / 327 / 4.6ypc / 1TD; Maroney - 70 / 503 / 7.2ypc / 6TD

Avg: Barber - 17.75 / 81.75 / 4.6ypc / .25TD; Maroney - 17.5 / 125.75 / 7.2ypc / 1.5TD

You know, I need to get some sleep and this certainly looks to support your argument a lot. I concede defeat on the part regarding his not having faced top competition.

Per the original questions I posed:

Does he have the hands? Can he handle a full load? What makes him different from the four other runners who cloned his numbers in college and are fighting for roster spots in the NFL? How will he do against a top defense when he doesn't have another back force-feeding the defense an extra 20 carries a game?

1) his questionable hands (we don't know how good of a receiver he is, if at all? Like you said and someone before you, and I said, they just don't pass to him).

2) his ability to carry a full load as the only person in a backfield? Carrying the ball 20 times on a defense that takes 40 carries is a lot different than running 20 times on a defense that only has to stop you 20 times. There's a lot more wear and tear on the defense with this rushing offense. (I suppose that would definitely support the claim on the top defense numbers, but I will still give you that, because I am a statistician first and foremost).

3) his standing out versus Barber, Tapeh, and others? The reality is still apparent that these guys, despite their impressive numbers, have been met with none to minimal success in the NFL. Perhaps, in being the slightly most prolific of these runners from this system, Maroney will be slightly more than a servicable backup.

4) his durability against a fresher defense? I concede that point to you, because we have argued this point left and right for the past half dozen posts, and I think you won.

But how about the other three? This is still way too much to garner a 1st round pick in my book.

 

[Bob Magaw]

thanx for all the input & feedback so far...

before proceeding to the contentious & divisive maroney conundrum (sounds like a lecarre title )...

a deangelo williams fun fact from his memphis team bio...

"...holds the state (arkansas) 4A record in the 100 meters with an electronically-timed 10.81..."

the funny thing is, after looking at the mayock/chavous breakdown segment again on the DVR, i was reminded of a comp player i have seen come up a few times before, if not commonly... emmitt smith.

smith was about 5'9" 210... williams an inch shorter & similar weight... they seem to have similar, low slung builds with huge thighs... but i am sure smith is nowhere close to the FL state record in the 100 m...

this freakish, mutant juxtaposition of emmitt's squat, powerful physique with sprinter speed (at least formerly... some of these guys slow down in the interval between prep & NFL career as they bulk up in college) seems like it could be a nasty combination...

count me in the group that thinks white could very possibly emerge as the top NFL RB & fantasy force from the very good looking class of '06... like EBF, i find bush more dynamic & explosive... but i could see a situation where dom davis gets a third of the carries... goal line carries are divided in some ways... if white ends up in a fortuitous situation (BAL, MIN, JAX & CAR could be great situations... maybe even ARI)... look out...

RBs that are thick, powerful & have the kind of contact balance that make them hard to knock off their pins, who ALSO have the agility, athleticism, coordination & change-of-direction skills of a smaller player are extremely rare... for somebody with similar size to steven jackson, he appears on film to have far greater explosiveness, burst, suddenness & acceleration... as well as the more instictive runner... with superior patience, vision & cutting ability in the open field...

back to maroney...

some of the things that jumped off the screen & got my attention include some attributes mentioned above regarding white (though he is about 20-30 lbs smaller... making white all the more impressive to me)... patience, vision cutting ability... he has a somewhat upright, but very smooth & gliding running style (which may have prompted & elicited SA comparison above)...

what blew me away was how fast he looked... on one play he split a few players that were ahead of him & further downfield... at least one of which looked like they had an angle... he just exploded right past them, turned on the afterburners & took it to the house... this jibes with whispers that his recent workouts have been phenomenal... if he clocks a blistering 4.4, it could vault him closeR to top half of the first round (depending on how fast the other two RBs after bush go off the board, he may not slide past MIN, who must have seen a lot of him as a local product)...

last year yahoo had some nice several minute video highlight packages of most of the top prospects (at all positions) immediately after the draft... i would highly recommend taking a look at white & maroney... especially if, like me, you have seen more highlights of bush & williams...

i could try & address some of the criticism of maroney...

like others have touched on... few prospects except for maybe top 3-5 come completely devoid of questions... for instance, some scouts have different questions about how williams skills will translate to the NFL, that they may not have had when they thought he was 2" taller & 10 lbs heavier (just for the record, i will be extremely happy to get any of these guys in my dynasty league/s)... also, mayock raised concerns about his ability to pass protect against a dangerous blitzing team... he didn't say it would definitely be a huge problem... but he did say it could be an issue & possible red flag...

on the debate between stats & scouting instincts... imo, we are remiss if we don't carefully examine & try & understand the implications of many strands of information... both those & many more included, like triangle numbers & other measurables, prep & collegiate pedigree (i like to find out what i can about character, work ethic & intangibles... not that all these RBs don't score high, but bush & williams are reportedly off the charts)...

stats & history are like a probability & constraint space... & they can help to ground our projections & make them more realistic...

OTOH, looking exclusively at the stats can similarly lead to tunnell vision & shortsightedness...

one thing i like to do is to look at a lot of different scouting reports... while still cultivating some especially trusted scouting resources (i like coyle, kiper, PFW, SN, mayock, usa today, nfl draft countdown, GBN... among staffers bob henry, jason, aaron, etc... among non-staffers, bloom & tenacious D to name a few)... by looking at a lot of resources, i feel like i have a greater perspective to see when a consensus is emerging, when you are dealing with idiosyncratic, anomalous, outlier opinions that may not be as relevant... if things are especially murky due to non-descript reports or conflicting info... that is when i really enjoy looking at highlights... it really enables one to have a sense of how to weigh the positives & negatives you read about in scouting reports...

on one level, you may get a sense of a kind of convergence... consensus-like & near universal agreement on a particular players attributes & skills sets at times... or in which players are well aligned with team needs in certain sections of mock drafts (NO needs a QB, etc)... i also get this sense if i find myself frequently in agreement with scouts & draft analysts... and especially if in some cases they/we have been "right" before... even then, i still like to gather contrarian views to help me think outside the box & recognize & identify exceptions & mistakes...

in scouting, imo, it is really important to not fall in love with a player... keep grinding & look for a weaknesses... if the player still withstands that kind of continued vetting, this should in some cases inexorably lead to a more bullett proof prospect.

back to maroney... i wouldn't judge him too harshly for dividing carries with barber his first two seasons... by that criteria, ronnie brown & cadillac should have been heavily penalized by scouts & dropped much further in 2005 draft... & as was already pointed out elsewhere above... ditto for bush & white in 2006...

maybe because from what i saw of barber in DAL i left being very impressed, i am even higher on maroney... imo, barber could start for a few NFL teams... he is a nice combo of speed & power (though not as fast, explosive or elusive as his ex-teammate, but bigger & maybe stronger... his biggest flaw is putting ball on ground at times & inexperience-related mistakes)...

as to his hands, if i think a guy is a good athlete, i tend to give them the benefit of the doubt & think they are innocent until proven guilty... as was noted several times, the system he played in was not conducive to featuring & highlighting those skills... when keith jackson (? TE for GB & MIA) came out of oklahoma, he was thought by some scouts a risk as they rarely passed (at that time, long before stoops)... others looked at his athleticism, used their imagination to project how he could do in a scheme that better utilized & tapped into his strengths & talents... the latter group of scouts were rewarded for their imagination...

one thing about the list of recent MIN RBs... i don't recall at any time guys like by tapeh being touted by multiple national scouting resources as one of the top RBs in the nation... this was even the case with a clearly more talented back like barber...

if i see multiple scouting resources (trusted for me) like coyle, kiper, mayock, etc stating tha he is a borderline top 15 overall talent... that gets my attention... their impratur in & of itself doesn't constitute a CULMINATION or TERMINAL POINT of my thinking (let alone a substitute for it)... it is instead a POINT OF DEPARTURE for further thinking...

sometimes circling back... but from a higher perspective... less like going in circles... than an upward spiral...

 

[Biabreakable]

I still have not seen any link of fact to Deangelo Williams being shorter than 5'10" although I have read posters stating that he is. I would like to see this substaintiated before I would consider it as a negative.

I have noticed a trend of posters on this board touting White as under-rated and then following this statement by saying they prefer White over Deangelo Williams which gives me the impression that Williams is being considered similar to a goliath by comparison to White (in terms of talent). I'm not sure where this attitude stems from. This is just an observation I have made.

This is reminding me of the rb class that spawned Willie Green TJ Duckett DeShawn Foster and Clinton Portis where many scouts considered Portis to be too small and not a good inside the tackles rb. While conversly TJ Duckett was considered a phenominal combination of size power speed and agility.

If this comparison holds any weight when talking about White vs. Williams I think most if not all would agree that Portis was the better player. As I believe Williams will be. And I cannot help but wonder if some of the opinions I have read here have more behind them than a subtle smoke screen clouding the issue.

ETA I see that was his measurment at the senior bowl so never mind.

 

[MLBrandow]

I won't disagree at all that the Vikings may take Maroney at 17. But I guarantee you if he goes to a team that doesn't run a zone-blocking system, he's going to fall flat on his face.

As such, Minnesota is his only first-round hope.

Think about how good Denver always makes its RBs look. Now, would that justify spending a first round pick on Olandis Gary or Tatum Bell? Ehh.... I don't think so. I think this guy is probably the 4th or 5th best RB in the draft just like all of these guys say. But the top 3 are far and away better, and he's clinging onto that "upper echelon" by the skin of his nose.

It seems to me the way that RBs always tend to fall farther than we originally anticipate, that projecting Maroney well into the 2nd round is not far-fetched at all, especially since he may well still be the 4th or 5th RB off the board when he's picked there.

So, in essence, I think part of this debate is a lost cause. The questions I believe derail his first-round value are moot because if Minnesota doesn't jump all over him, there's a very good chance he a falls by the wayside.

 

[Otis]

Maroney reminds me a lot of Shaun Alexander the way he runs.

Unimpressively behind a great offensive line?

 

[Bri]

Taurean Henderson any good? 3rd down back?

 

[The Mechanic]

Just a THANKS to all that are fueling ths topic.

Great Job!

 

[beto]

Taurean Henderson any good? 3rd down back?

Tough to say. You aren't going to see many programs breaking down film on him to get an idea. He had a very solid Shrine Bowl game, so he's a player I'm keeping an eye on.edit to add that he looked like more than a 3rd down back at the Shrine game. He'slisted at 5'10" 205 so he fits into the same ht. wt. combo as several of this years prospects. That may work against him.

 

[Bri]

Taurean Henderson any good? 3rd down back?

Tough to say. You aren't going to see many programs breaking down film on him to get an idea. He had a very solid Shrine Bowl game, so he's a player I'm keeping an eye on.edit to add that he looked like more than a 3rd down back at the Shrine game. He'slisted at 5'10" 205 so he fits into the same ht. wt. combo as several of this years prospects. That may work against him.

I'd think it's possible Romeo(and maybe Mangini I guess) is looking for a Meggett Faulk type back. I heard this on the radio and thought it was a good draft guess/prediction. (I mentioned in browns thread)