The Overwhelming, Overweening Therapeutic Avalanche In Modern Consciousness (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

Just watching an HP ad for printers. Printed out something about couples therapy. Every commercial on the internet seems like it's about therapy.

I'm not the only one who has noticed. Mozilla Firefox was just promoting an article about everything is mental health nowadays.

Seriously. Even watching the bits and pieces of Ted Lasso, a supposed "white male guy" show, I was struck by how much therapy was involved.

Do we need all this therapeutic speak in our language that's cropped up recently? Do we need therapy? What is the origin of this monstrosity and from where did it come?

You tell me.

 

[TLEF316]

Don't disagree. Seems like the idea that everyone "needs therapy" is becoming more and more prevalent.

I see women on dating aps stating that they won't even date someone who isn't seeing a therapist. Talk about a red flag....

 

[rockaction]

Talk about a red flag...

Red flag, huh? Sounds like something you should be discussing with your therapist, you judgmental thing, you.

 

[rockaction]

To be clear, I've been in therapy several times. Don't mind it or have anything against it. But as it encroaches ordinary disturbances and hardship in our everyday lives, it becomes something different and overarching.

 

[Nugget]

Normalizing therapy seems like a good thing to me.

 

[rockaction]

Normalizing therapy seems like a good thing to me.

Of course it sounds good to you, Nugget.

 

[rockaction]

Edited for clarity.

 

[foxco]

"I'll take the rapists for $200,"

"That's Therapists, not "the rapists."

 

[AAABatteries]

I have to admit I used to have a stigma about therapy but then heard somebody explain it simply. We have doctors or specialists for our eyes, ears, nose, knees, teeth, reproductive organs, brains, spines and I could go on. Why not for our mental health?

 

[rockaction]

Why not for our mental health?

Because it medicalizes hardship. That’s a serious thing. As if we had conditions that needed to be “treated” and hygienic washing.

Now, some people with human-induced stressors might need therapy. War, for example. But the hardships we are medicalizing are so soft at times that an examination of the soul is more important than a cleansing of our self.

Or so I’ve heard.

 

[AAABatteries]

Why not for our mental health?

Because it medicalizes hardship. That’s a serious thing. As if we had conditions that needed to be “treated” and hygienic washing.

Now, some people with human-induced stressors might need therapy. War, for example. But the hardships we are medicalizing are so soft at times that an examination of the soul is more important than a cleansing of our self.

Or so I’ve heard.

I see it as no different than having a checkup with the dentist. I think it’s much more complex and the biggest thing is having a qualified therapist who works on you as an individual.

 

[AAABatteries]

I will say that it’s such a complex thing that you have to find someone qualified - it’s not as simple to diagnose and treat in many instances.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Big Therapy and their lobbyists really have their claws in us.

In all seriousness, when the answer to our bi-weekly mass murder events is "the real problem in this country is mental health" it seems the least we could do is not push back when acknowledging and trying to better mental health actually starts becoming a trend.

 

[rockaction]

the least we could do is not push back when acknowledging and trying to better mental health actually starts becoming a trend.

That's awesome. Here's some straw for your straw man and some ice for your slippery slope.

Not to mention hyperbole and a half.

Keep winning.

 

[rockaction]

I love that.

You're criticizing the therapeutic state! Don't you know there are mass murders with gun use where the standard reply is "he was mentally challenged"?!

That's brilliant. Assume that someone who notes that the therapeutic impulse is out of control gives stupid answers about gun violence.

That's mis-attribution, too.

How many logical fallacies can you commit in one paragraph or fell-swooped thought?

 

[AAABatteries]

One thing we should probably do is acknowledge there’s different levels of mental disease and different types of mental health needed. Rock, I assume you are just talking about your run of the mill therapist with the couch and person laying down on a pillow type therapy.

 

[rockaction]

Rock, I assume you are just talking about your run of the mill therapist with the couch and person laying down on a pillow type therapy.

I am, but my influence Thomas Szasz wasn't. He thought schizophrenia was treatable without medication.

That left him in the dustbin of history as far as medical practice goes, but not about his observations of the therapeutization of everything and every problem. To medicalize or to posit a solution for mental hygiene is a dangerous path to go down.

That's what I'm against. The therapeutization of everything.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Why not for our mental health?

Because it medicalizes hardship. That’s a serious thing. As if we had conditions that needed to be “treated” and hygienic washing.

Now, some people with human-induced stressors might need therapy. War, for example. But the hardships we are medicalizing are so soft at times that an examination of the soul is more important than a cleansing of our self.

Or so I’ve heard.

I think you are underestimating the stress and trauma that can occur in everyday life. And also the fact that different people can experience the same events in very different ways.

I think that part of your point may be that therapy can be patronizing and potentially prevent people from developing by not allowing them to accept and acknowledge difficulties and become stronger from them, sort of like working out causes tears in muscles which are then rebuilt stronger. I think there is probably something to that sometimes. But it can also be challenging to know what situations are best to do that for when it comes to mental health, so perhaps it is better to err on the side of support, rather than letting the muscle tear and tear and develop in a potentially destructive fashion. I do think that it is important to maintain a balance, but I don’t think that therapy is necessarily making people soft, but hopefully helping them to put things in perspective and not be overly impacted by negative situations. Ultimately the goal of therapy should largely be to give the patient more tools to cope with things on their own, which I don’t think runs counter to the idea of getting stronger from hardships.

 

[AAABatteries]

That's what I'm against. The therapeutization of everything.

I think we don’t treat our mental health or to use your term, mental hygiene (which I like) with the respect it deserves and we are much more concerned with our personal hygiene, dental, etc. We definitely should be more focused on it but I still don’t see working with someone qualified as a bad thing.

Every situation is different and I do think talking through things with others can happen outside therapy - with a priest, SO, friend - so in that regard it doesn’t have to just be therapy - but I think the act of doing that is important for almost everyone.

 

[rockaction]

And like I said, I've been to therapy a bunch (I mean a bunch) of times. I don't find it has any stigma or any sort of baggage attached.

I'm talking about normalizing hardship as a mental health problem.

Like unrequited love. Things like that.

I think you are underestimating the stress and trauma that can occur in everyday life. And also the fact that different people can experience the same events in very different ways.

No, I'm really not. Nor am I taking a non-relativist position that people have differing constitutions.

There are things that cause stress and trauma in everyday life that are the proper subject of therapy. There are other things that are not. It seems like we're creeping into new and unchartered waters about what needs special attention and what doesn't.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

And like I said, I've been to therapy a bunch (I mean a bunch) of times. I don't find it has any stigma or any sort of baggage attached.

I'm talking about normalizing hardship as a mental health problem.

Like unrequited love. Things like that.

I think you are underestimating the stress and trauma that can occur in everyday life. And also the fact that different people can experience the same events in very different ways.

No, I'm really not. Nor am I taking a non-relativist position that people have differing constitutions.

There are things that cause stress and trauma in everyday life that are the proper subject of therapy. There are other things that are not. It seems like we're creeping into new and uncharted waters about what needs special attention and what doesn't.

Can you give a more specific example of something that is not a proper subject of therapy?

 

[rockaction]

Every situation is different and I do think talking through things with others can happen outside therapy - with a priest, SO, friend - so in that regard it doesn’t have to just be therapy - but I think the act of doing that is important for almost everyone.

I don't disagree with this at all. In fact, if we all had better social connections, we'd be all better off. It's when people feel lonely and like they don't have anybody adequate or knowledgeable enough to turn to that they turn to therapy.

As LBL says, sometimes professionals can give us tools to help deal with prior and upcoming traumas. But I think we're taking a class of things that were ordinarily discussed between adults and medicalizing them.

Almost because we're too lazy or unequipped emotionally to listen to one another.

 

[-OZ-]

depression runs in my family. My dad and mom have seen a psychologist for years, mom is currently on meds (she’s also blind and deaf so that definitely doesn’t help). I saw the same psychologist for most of my teenage years and self treat my depression through physical means. When I was young there was a stigma so I made up some BS to my friends about having to see my table tennis coach (we played many games, it was his way to get me to talk).
My middle son saw a therapist for a while last year.

For one, I’m glad it’s more normalized.
But when I tried to get in this past year, there was a 3 month wait to make an appointment. That’s a problem. The VA says they would see me, but everyone I’ve heard from about their care have only negative things to say - take that as you will.

 

[rockaction]

Can you give a more specific example of something that is not a proper subject of therapy?

Unrequited love, attention not garnered or unwanted attention at school, etc.

Therapy, for a time, became about embracing your inner child and rolling around on the floor and crying (I'm dead serious about this). **** like that.

 

[rockaction]

But when I tried to get in this past year, there was a 3 month wait to make an appointment. That’s a problem. The VA says they would see me, but everyone I’ve heard from about their care have only negative things to say - take that as you will.

Thank you.

As someone who also depends on mental health professionals, I have limits on critiquing therapy. Stuff like this is a good start.

Perhaps a data-driven exercise would lessen any claims against the messenger.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

"I'll take the rapists for $200,"

"That's Therapists, not "the rapists."

LOL

Reminds me of the comic strip where a doctor is angry at the man who is painting his name on his office door.

"It's psychotherapist, NOT psycho the rapist!"

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Do we need all this therapeutic speak in our language that's cropped up recently? Do we need therapy? What is the origin of this monstrosity and from where did it come?

You tell me.

This observation aligns with the general heightened neuroticism (in the "big five" sense) that has taken over our workplaces and other institutions. You have a bunch of high-neuroticism people getting each other worked up, and nitpicking one another's "well-being" is just another manifestation of that.

We should definitely destigmatize actual mental illness, and I'd argue that we've already done so. But it's not really helpful to constantly tell people that they are mentally weak. That's not how you build a healthy population, and it's like we're having to re-learn that lesson for some reason.

And like I said, I've been to therapy a bunch (I mean a bunch) of times. I don't find it has any stigma or any sort of baggage attached.

I'm talking about normalizing hardship as a mental health problem.

Like unrequited love. Things like that.

This is what I'm talking about, too. If you have suicidal thoughts or can't get out of bed in the morning, please, see somebody! But we're going to start scheduling "mental health days" for our students starting a couple of years from now, on the grounds that it's just too much to expect them to go through a whole semester with only the normal academic holidays. That sort of thing causes mental health problems.

 

[Ilov80s]

It’s probably partly because it’s another thing that can be monetized and so capitalism says if it can make money then it’s a good thing. And I guess tying right back into that, our culture is very unhealthy. Violent, lack of meaningful open loving relationships, dependent on drugs, etc.

 

[Ilov80s]

I think you can approach therapy and the ideas of it from 2 places. One place is the woe is me I am broken and nothing is my fault. That’s bad. The other approach is that you are looking to add tools to improve yourself and are treating this like the mental version of your regular exercise routine. That’s probably extremely healthy and should be encouraged.

 

[beer 30]

My

With the increase in screen time, Zoom, Teams, ways for people to isolate, etc. we lose the human interaction of talking to someone face to face. Growing up we all had a circle of trusted friends that we had experiences with, good or bad and that bonded us to those individuals. Those friends today I can go to and pick up like it was 40 years ago. I don't see kids today having that same interaction. We're quickly losing our ability to function in public. So people turn to therapy because they can actually talk to someone to relieve some of the built up pressure day-to-day life dumps on you.

 

[Jayrod]

Read this thread late last night and wanted to chime in then but feel it is too serious/complex to type on my phone at 1am.

I have been to counseling, both marriage and individual, as well as been on anti-depressant medication and even saw a life coach for a while and went on a weekend retreat for "getting unstuck". I would say the marriage counseling was good and the medication helped get me to a place I could climb out, but the rest wasn't that beneficial.

At this point, I believe the data is clear that our extreme focus on mental health has become a net negative. Nearly all mental health statistics have been worsening on a per capita basis, not improving. Depression, anxiety, and suicide were all increasing prior to COVID and we all know the havoc that the pandemic wreaked on the overall mental health of our society.

I believe there are 2 problems with our current approach to mental health services:

1. I think there is a law of diminishing returns to counseling and psychotherapy and that people get stuck hoping for someone else to fix things for them. It gets to the point that without the person moving themselves forward they will never get better. Therapists, counselors, psychiatrists, etc. have no incentive to actually get people fully recovered. Not saying most of them aren't trying, but I'd imagine a handful are content to just keep billing their clients week after week.
2. Having mental health problems is now an "in" thing. I believe this causes two problems in that people are actively looking for it in themselves so much that it causes conditions that weren't actually there before and people are embracing the victim mentality to generate excuses for lazy or selfish behavior. I've personally seen in myself that there is a fine line between laziness and depression and no one on the outside can probably tell the difference.

Stigmatizing mental health (especially severe depression and PTSD) was a bad problem in our society, but the pendulum has swung back too far, IMO.

 

[Ilov80s]

What I think is actually more beneficial than seeing a mental health professional is people being aware of the tools/strategies/approaches for dealing with trauma, stress, etc. Not even just for yourself but so that you are in position to help the people in your sphere. I actually think emotional intelligence and intra/interpersonal communication should be required courses for kids in school over several years. A therapist can help but I think a good friend or loved one who is able to apply therapeutic strategies can be a more effective and helpful. experience.

That said, there are people who have been through some real serious stuff and there’s no doubt professional help is required.

 

[bigbottom]

After Chance died, I went to a couple therapy sessions with a grief counselor. It did not help me at all, and in fact made me feel worse. So I stopped and haven’t been back. Now, over ten years later, my wife still goes. It has helped her. I guess I offer this just to say that people suffering similar life challenges can experience different outcomes from therapy, and that we should be careful to avoid broad generalizations about this experience or that experience not requiring or benefiting from therapy. I’m not saying this to criticize the general premise of the thread, and must admit to harboring my own less than empathetic reactions to folks who have so many advantages and blessings when I see them complain about struggling mentally. But I do try my level best not to judge someone who is seeking help, as I lack the insight into their situation or clinical expertise to reach anything even close to an informed conclusion.

 

[bigbottom]

I’ve posted this before, but I feel like this Ted Talk about false positivity might play a role in the topic at hand. About how we try to prevent or eliminate “bad feelings” such as sadness or grief, when these feelings are part of our contract for a life well lived. I’ll post both the two minute version and the extended version, both of which are worth watching.

https://youtu.be/S45YDJZLjW8?si=2-oetzDZIpzdKlE3 (two minute version)

https://youtu.be/NDQ1Mi5I4rg?si=T2eq1Xmv_hCnHjXV (full version)

 

[Gally]

I think that part of your point may be that therapy can be patronizing and potentially prevent people from developing by not allowing them to accept and acknowledge difficulties and become stronger from them, sort of like working out causes tears in muscles which are then rebuilt stronger. I think there is probably something to that sometimes. But it can also be challenging to know what situations are best to do that for when it comes to mental health, so perhaps it is better to err on the side of support, rather than letting the muscle tear and tear and develop in a potentially destructive fashion.

Taking the exercise comparison a step further.......are people treating therapy as if the trainer is actually doing all the exercises for the person like they are paralyzed? So they aren't doing the good tear down (learning how to cope so they are stronger in the future) but are actually being treated like a quadriplegic where someone else is actually moving their limbs for them and they don't do anything for themselves and just want someone else to fix it.

I think many people go in with this approach and might be what @rockaction is getting at. Get some tools and figure out what works for you to get stronger and able to handle a little adversity. I know I saw it a lot in youth sports when I coached. Too many kids would just give up when they got hit with a little adversity. Whether it was their fault (just bad) or a bad call (ump is against me) or playing against someone that is good (they are better so why even try). It was very disheartening.

 

[AAABatteries]

I think you can approach therapy and the ideas of it from 2 places. One place is the woe is me I am broken and nothing is my fault. That’s bad. The other approach is that you are looking to add tools to improve yourself and are treating this like the mental version of your regular exercise routine. That’s probably extremely healthy and should be encouraged.

Totally agree - and that's why it's super important to find the right therapist for the right person/situation.

 

[AAABatteries]

What I think is actually more beneficial than seeing a mental health professional is people being aware of the tools/strategies/approaches for dealing with trauma, stress, etc. Not even just for yourself but so that you are in position to help the people in your sphere. I actually think emotional intelligence and infra/interpersonal communication should be required courses for kids in school over several years. A therapist can help but I think a good friend or loved one who is able to apply therapeutic strategies can be a more effective and helpful. experience.

That said, there are people who have been through some real serious stuff and there’s no doubt professional help is required.

As I mentioned upthread - I was one who fell in to the stigma about therapy and went the first 49 years of my life feeling like I could (and did) solve all my own problems. Had some things happen last year which led me to decide to go - after consulting with the wife and having several "therapy sessions" with her. You are spot on about tools/strategies/approaches - that and the idea that therapy isn't something they want people to have to do all the time were the 2 big things that sold me on the person I saw. They quickly recognized me going through a season of life and gave me several things to do and try. Additionally, as @beer 30 points out - just having someone to talk to about things that you need to get off your chest was great - not having to worry about saying the right things or offending the person and without judgement. I have no parental or sibling relationship to discuss these things with and a good portion of what I talked about was those missing/broken relationships. Highly recommend it if it's something someone thinks can help but those two things I mentioned: 1. finding the right therapist and 2. having the right gameplan is key to getting the most out of it.

 

[rockaction]

I'd like to chime in and say that this thread has the danger of being one of those where we judge therapy as a monolithic construct and not how it is currently being used by the population writ large. That's an important distinction to make.

I am not criticizing those who go to therapy writ large. That is not the intention of the thread. The thread is about the explosion of therapeutic speak and therapeutic solutions being integrated into our daily lives as universal maxims or as solutions to problems that have other answers.

That's what this is about.

Not whether or not therapy is right for the appropriate individual.

 

[rockaction]

Just like religion, this has the danger of turning a macro question like "Do you think the loss of religion is good or bad for society?" which is a macro question, into "Why do you believe in God?"

The premise laid out is on a macro level. The conversation devolving into the micro can be useful, but it's also useful to keep your eye on the premise (on the prize, as it were).

 

[pecorino]

In my wildly oversimplistic world view, this ties in with the ‘death of religion’ thread. If folks don’t have a God to believe in or the moorings of an established religion to provide a foundation of meaning in their lives, then they may feel lonely, unmotivated, fatalistic, you name it. Therapy and the attention on mental health is playing an important role in the shift away from religion. I’m doing my best to remain non-judgmental here. Please accept my comments as one man’s humble observations / claims.

 

[rockaction]

In my wildly oversimplistic world view, this ties in with the ‘death of religion’ thread.

People struggling to find meaning in life with the loss of religion isn't wildly simplistic at all.

No less than Nietzsche and then the German and French existentialists attempted the reconstruction of meaning in a Godless state.

It wound up with psychotherapy, I think. And in the Germanic case, something much worse than that. So you're not being too simplistic. You're being somewhat historical, actually.

 

[northern exposure]

"I'll take the rapists for $200,"

"That's Therapists, not "the rapists."

Tobias Finke had it right. He was a combination analyst/therapist. An analrapist if you will.

 

[dkp993]

This is what I'm talking about, too. If you have suicidal thoughts or can't get out of bed in the morning, please, see somebody! But we're going to start scheduling "mental health days" for our students starting a couple of years from now, on the grounds that it's just too much to expect them to go through a whole semester with only the normal academic holidays. That sort of thing causes mental health problems.

Yeah I’m very middled on this subject ( as I’m interpreting @rockaction is too). Therapy can be a fantastic thing and certainly has a place in our society, it certainly shouldn’t be stigmatized. But the general wussifacation (not the ideal word I want to use but will have to do due the censors) of our society as whole has weakened us to a point where we need “mental health days” from our jobs (or school apparently). That’s problematic.

I’m really not sure where our society has decided life should be easy or free from strife. Life has never been this way, nor will it ever be. A certain amount of thickening of the skin is required to make it through multiple revolutions of the sun. Therapy isn’t always the cure for this, resilience is.

 

[belljr]

Therapy helped my kid so I won't downplay it's usefulness

Ymmv

 

[massraider]

In my wildly oversimplistic world view, this ties in with the ‘death of religion’ thread.

People struggling to find meaning in life with the loss of religion isn't wildly simplistic at all.

No less than Nietzsche and then the German and French existentialists attempted the reconstruction of meaning in a Godless state.

It wound up with psychotherapy, I think. So you're not being too simplistic. You're being somewhat historical, actually.

Mental health issues are increasing because people strayed from religion?

 

[pecorino]

In my wildly oversimplistic world view, this ties in with the ‘death of religion’ thread.

People struggling to find meaning in life with the loss of religion isn't wildly simplistic at all.

No less than Nietzsche and then the German and French existentialists attempted the reconstruction of meaning in a Godless state.

It wound up with psychotherapy, I think. So you're not being too simplistic. You're being somewhat historical, actually.

Mental health issues are increasing because people strayed from religion?

Yes. That is what I’m claiming.

 

[Ilov80s]

In my wildly oversimplistic world view, this ties in with the ‘death of religion’ thread.

People struggling to find meaning in life with the loss of religion isn't wildly simplistic at all.

No less than Nietzsche and then the German and French existentialists attempted the reconstruction of meaning in a Godless state.

It wound up with psychotherapy, I think. So you're not being too simplistic. You're being somewhat historical, actually.

Mental health issues are increasing because people strayed from religion?

Yes. That is what I’m claiming.

Was it the religion or that sense of shared community?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Was it the religion or that sense of shared community?

This is armchair sociology (really though, is there any other kind of sociology?), but I would argue that it's two things, neither of which have anything to do with "morality" or whether any particular religion is true or false:

1) Shared community, as you mentioned. For lots of people, church used to serve as something sort of like an Elks Club. The decline of church attendance would tend to weaken community bonds. Not for everyone of course. We're talking at the 30,000-ft "community" level here, not the individual level. Many people don't need strong social bonds -- I know that because I'm one of those people. But I think we all can agree that communities are less cohesive than they were a few decades ago. It's not like I'm the first person to make that observation.

2) Sense of purpose. One thing that religion definitely does, explicitly so, is give people structure and purpose to their life. Again, on an individual level, lots of people don't need that. This forum in particular is filled to the brim with people who can provide self-direction -- I am one of those people, and I can point to a whole bunch of kindred spirits here, by name if pressed. But most people aren't like that. Take away religion, and they'll either find themselves directionless, or they'll glom onto a political cult, materialism, or some other unfulfilling alternative.

Notice that this argument would be the same if the US were mainly an Islamic country instead of being mostly Christian. This is sociology-of-religion, not really religion per se. I think it's basically the same argument I was making in that thread. My experience of living in the US since the early-70s and watching how things have gone has led to think that probably societies function better if there's somewhat more shared community/purpose-making than what we have right now. As an ardent individualist, this is not the conclusion that I ever saw myself drawing, but I can't deny what's in front of my own two eyes.

Edit: Also, I know it's not just religion. Stuff like this is almost never monocausal. I used to think that it was great that we have a million different streaming services so that each of us can watch what we want and tune out the stuff we don't want, and I still feel that way, but that's another area where we just don't have a shared culture anymore. We're never going to have another "Who Shot JR?" moment, and we'll never have another Cronkite. On net that's almost surely a good thing, but it has a downside in atomizing society that much more. We could go on and on about this topic. It deserves a book-length treatment.

 

[rockaction]

As an ardent individualist, this is not the conclusion that I ever saw myself drawing, but I can't deny what's in front of my own two eyes.

This is going to sound really stupid, but my law school entrance essay was about autonomy and individuality vs. community and shared being. Given who I'd worked for and the record I'd left, I sort of had to explicitly state that I'd found the sort of radical individualism assumed proper in my previous circles was lacking something very serious, and that as radically individualist as I might seem from my record, there was a communitarian streak developing in me as I got older and watched things going the way they were both on a macro level and in my own life.

It could be a function of aging, IK. We are more vulnerable as we age and we're closer to death. We depend more on the status quo than those starting out. That might have something to do with it, too.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As an ardent individualist, this is not the conclusion that I ever saw myself drawing, but I can't deny what's in front of my own two eyes.

This is going to sound really stupid, but my law school entrance essay was about autonomy and individuality vs. community and shared being. Given who I'd worked for and the record I'd left, I sort of had to explicitly state that I'd found the sort of radical individualism assumed proper in my previous circles was lacking something very serious, and that as radically individualist as I might seem from my record, there was a communitarian streak developing in me as I got older and watched things going the way they were both on a macro level and in my own life.

It could be a function of aging, IK. We are more vulnerable as we age and we're closer to death. We depend more on the status quo than those starting out. That might have something to do with it, too.

That's certainly possible, and we also have to keep in mind that people always tend to look back on their youth as the golden age of society.

But the thing is, society is working very well for me and people like me. I have more freedom (in the non-political sense of "having a bunch of live options") than I ever expected to have, and it's great! It just seems like others are wilting in this environment. Obviously I'd rather be able to argue that all the social changes that I've enjoyed have also been great for society writ large -- I just don't think I can make that argument honestly.