The scapegoating of illegal immigrants (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I have always proudly stood up for illegal immigrants, and over the past several years this has been the minority opinion. Now I'm afraid there's going to be a tidal wave of anti-illegal bias, like nothing that's been expressed before, as a result of the worsening economy. The undocumented are easy targets for those who are looking for someone to pin our economic woes. The truth, however, is not nearly as clear. From OhMyGov.com, a non profit website:

The cost of illegal immigrants

Everything seems to always boil down to money. The heated debate over illegal immigration is certainly no exception. One of the most contentious issues in the whole debacle is whether illegal immigrants are a drain or a boon to government revenues.

To answer the question, one needs to know how much illegal immigrants contribute to the government through income, sales, property and other taxes, and how much they cost the government by using public services such as education, health care and law enforcement.

Of course, getting this information is not easy, nor is the data is 100 percent reliable. Those who sit on both sides of the debate have done their research, and both have come out with different answers.

An example: a 2006 report by the Texas Office of the Comptroller found that the state's estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants contributed more in state revenues than they cost in state services during fiscal year 2005. According to the report, the net gain for the state was $424.7 million. At the same time, the study showed that in 2005, local governments and hospitals in Texas lost money due to undocumented immigrants, with an estimated net loss of $928.9 million.

To further thicken the plot, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a non-profit group dedicated to stopping illegal immigration came out with their own study. Their results contradicted the Texas comptroller's, concluding that illegal immigrants in Texas created an annual fiscal burden of $3.7 billion.

So who is right and who is wrong?

The Congressional Budget Office, which provides Congress with nonpartisan research on budget issues, reviewed 29 such reports published by different organizations over the past 15 years. In 2007, they concluded that all of the studies are basically off base, saying that they "were not a suitable basis for developing an aggregate national effect across all states," due to a lack of reliable and consistent data and other factors.

Dr. Steven A. Camarota, the director of research at the Center for Immigration studies in Washington, D.C. says that the economic influence illegal immigrants have on a town or state can ebb and flow depending on what public services researchers choose to include in their study.

Some researchers choose only to include direct services such as health care, education, and incarceration. When this happens, the net fiscal impact "tends to come out more positive," Dr. Camarota said. But if researchers decided to focus more on the U.S.-citizen children of illegal immigrants and population-based services such as repairs to roads, bridges and other infrastructure, "it turns very negative, very fast," he said.

What is important to note is that, contrary to popular belief, illegal immigrants do give back to the community by paying taxes. They pay sales and excise taxes for goods and services and property taxes on real estate, whether they rent or own a home. Those who work legal jobs contribute to the Social Security trust fund by paying payroll taxes.

In addition, the Internal Revenue Service and state officials report than an increasing number of undocumented workers are paying federal and state income taxes using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, rather than a Social Security Number. An ITIN is a tax-processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service, regardless of a person's immigration status.

"ITINs are used for tax purposed only, and are not intended to serve any other purpose," according to the agency. "IRS issues ITINs to help individuals comply with U.S. tex laws, and to provide a means to efficiently process and account for tax returns and payments for those not eligible for Social Security Numbers."

While illegal immigrants don't technically have to pay these taxes, more are choosing to do so because they want to be up to date and squared away with the IRS in the event that immigration policy changes and they can safely apply for legal status.

Calculating how much illegal immigrants cost states and municipalities is just as tough as calculating how much they contribute. Many illegal immigrants take advantage of free public services, from health care to police to schooling for their children. At the same time, there are likely just as many illegal immigrants out there that don't call the police, go to the hospital, or use other services because they are afraid of being caught and deported.

XXXXXXXXXX

Personally, I believe that illegal immigration tends to be an overall boon for the United States, and not a detriment. But as the article points out, there are reasonable conflicting views on this. What I fear is that reasonable views on both sides are going to be washed away in the torrent of anger that has been building for years, and we are headed for some ugly rhetoric and action on this issue.

I fully expect to be ripped for starting this thread and presenting this topic with the perspective that I have. I realize that I am in the extreme minority in the FFA on this issue, and my only allies are probably a few progressives here who I have very few othere viewpoints in common with. As for the rest of you that disagree with me, bring it on.

 

[Ozymandias]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

 

[snogger]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

They are just trying to provide for their family.. why the hate .. I say release all the bank/ store robbers in jails/prisons who didn't use weapon to steal as long as they can prove it was to provide for their family.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Actually, I thought that the recession would sweep all that under the rug. With a lack of jobs, especially in construction they are leaving back for Mexico. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Rayderr]

Don't many of the illegal immigrants, by their own admission, send some of the money they make here out of the country to their families? I can't imagine that money is helping our economy.

 

[joffer]

While illegal immigrants don't technically have to pay these taxes, more are choosing to do so because they want to be up to date and squared away with the IRS in the event that immigration policy changes and they can safely apply for legal status.

not buying this

 

[timschochet]

The Benefits of Illegal Immigration

Although illegal immigration is essential to the dynamics of the U.S. economy and for sustaining its pace in the creation of jobs, many American citizens believe that illegal immigrants can become a black hole on social services and public charges upon the major areas in the United States that receives these vastnesses of immigrants. Because there is a shortage of unskilled labor in many segments of the U.S. economy, numerous low-skilled positions are being filled by illegal immigrant workers. Without these workers, the productivity and economic growth of the economy would be slower and there would be fewer jobs for skilled labor. Also, by filling these unskilled labor openings, illegal immigration contributes to keeping the U.S. economy prosperous and affluent. The U.S. economy indeed benefits from illegal immigrants in who supply foreign workforce that complements rather than competes with the local workforce in the United States.

At issue is whether illegal immigrants in the country fuel the economy and the labor market or whether they cost American tax-payers their money. Since the local government is the first to provide public services such as health care and education to the community, many local government officials have expressed their concerns that illegal immigrants are a burden on their budgets and do not contribute tax revenues in what they cost in public services and those includes incarceration and medical care. One legislative director even went as far as saying, "it costs us millions per year" (Preston). While these public services are important to the American public, it is also very important to illegal immigrants as they establish a permanent living space in the U.S. where they can call home.

It can be hard to imagine that illegal immigrants participate in a positive effect on the U.S. economy, but in fact they do. Immigrants after all, are not just workers, but consumers and demand for products and services which expand employment. Many illegal immigrants are willing to pay their taxes because they want to make a contribution to the place in which they live in. Since living in this country, they know their money goes to improving local schools for their children and provide for a healthier community. Even if it is true that some unauthorized immigrants are motivated to migrate to the U.S. to tap into public resources, many have proven to benefit the U.S. economy. However, it is generally recognized that most enter to build a better life for themselves and their family by securing a higher paying job.

According to the National Council of La Raza, a Washington-based Latino Civil Rights and Advocacy Organization, reported that "the majority of undocumented immigrants pay income taxes using individual taxpayer identification numbers or false social security numbers" (Meredith). In comparison, a corporate law firm called the Washington-based American Immigration Lawyers Association, states that "immigrant households paid an estimated $133 billion in taxes to federal, state, and local governments in 1997" (Preston). This shows that a large portion of the money made by most illegal immigrants goes back to their local government to help improve local schools and the economy as a whole.

Illegal immigration is persistent because it has a strong economic foundation. In addition to immigrant households contributing $133 billion dollars to the government, the American Immigration Lawyers Association also reports that immigrants "may add as much as $10 billion dollars to the economy each year" (Preston). This is a vast amount of wealth that may hurt the U.S. economy if illegal immigrants did not contribute this much money. Clearly, illegal immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy as much as their income allows them to because they want to help make this country thriving.

Some who favor immigration reform argues that illegal workers will work for lower wages and that in-turn will hurt the job market for American workers by taking away jobs and lowering wages. While this holds some truth, in the long term, there will be little to no pressure on wages and American workers will eventually be moving onto higher paying jobs. Thomas Donohue, president and chief executive office of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, reports in a study showing that "less-skilled workers experience very little downward pressure on their wages from competition with illegal immigrants" (Meredith). He moves on to say that "American workers are moving into higher paying jobs, and immigrants have filled the gap by taking manual labor jobs that American workers are unwilling to take" (Meredith). Noticeably, considering that many illegal immigrants cannot speak English and have a relatively low skill-set, they will be able to only take the low skill jobs that have been disregarded by Native American workers who are constantly improving themselves in higher education.

Mexicans, who make up one third of recent immigrant arrivals in the U.S., tend to be less skilled compared to native-born-Americans. A recent study shows that "one half of all immigrants, and over two thirds of Mexicans, never completed high school, compared to only 16% of native-born Americans". (Lewis). This recent study done by Lewis provides evidence for reason why illegal immigrants fill relatively undesirable jobs, and that is because they have a low education. However, they fill these undesirable jobs only after more socially integrated groups of workers migrate into more desirable occupations. There is no question that native workers will be, on average, more educated each year and therefore less likely to accept these unskilled jobs.

Like many labor markets, illegal immigrants are inexplicably low-skilled; however, this allows Americans to benefit from illegal immigration. The reason for this is immigration makes inputs into production such as skilled labor and land. Skilled labor and land are two things that are reasonably scarce in the U.S. and will therefore raise their market value in real world markets. For example, if there are more low-skilled workers willing to work per acre of land, this allows farmers to be able to utilize their labor set and harvest more crops per acre in which ultimately makes their land more expensive. This analogy implies that U.S. consumers benefits from illegal immigrants to the extent in which immigrants drive down the cost of goods and services that uses a great deal of low-skilled labor. In a recent study, Cortes (2005) studied the impact of immigration on prices in twenty-five large U.S. metropolitan areas. She found that a "10% increase in immigration lowered the price of low-skilled intensive goods and services by 1%" (Lewis). Another study by the National Research Council reported that "in the mid-1990s, Americans gained between $1 and $10 billion per year from immigration's labor market impacts alone" (Lewis). Without a doubt, these two recent studies show that the U.S. economy is economically better off as a result of the contribution of illegal immigrants.

Those who oppose to immigration argue that not everyone benefits from immigration. Admittedly, besides immigration producing only positive effects on the U.S. economy, it also produces negative effects as well. However, those positive effects far outweigh the negative. Just as with international trade, the net benefit is encouraging, but there are both champions and rabbles. In this case, immigration initiates the reducing a small percentage of wages in the less-skilled jobs that immigrants take. The reason for this small force of reduction in wage is that immigrants and native-born workers, who are in the low-skill set groups, tend to work in different kinds of jobs.

Illegal immigration contributes to keeping the U.S. economy productive and prosperous by filling the unskilled labor gap in the U.S. economy. Filling such jobs, however, is central to the U.S. economy's functioning and growth. While it is true that those who oppose to immigration feel that immigrants fill jobs natives won't do, most Americans citizens benefit from immigration since labor markets are adequately elastic to take in immigrants without greatly depressing low-skilled Americans' earnings. Since there is a shortage of unskilled labor in many areas of the U.S. economy, those low-skilled gaps are being filled by illegal immigrant workers and will therefore lower the price of goods and services. This allows workers, consumers, and businesses to benefit from immigration. Overall, the foreign workforce complements rather than competes with the native workforce.

 

[Ozymandias]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

They are just trying to provide for their family.. why the hate .. I say release all the bank/ store robbers in jails/prisons who didn't use weapon to steal as long as they can prove it was to provide for their family.

You're overlooking the fact that the use of a weapon tends to create more demands for weapons. That increases employment at gun making factories, increases sales of ammunition, increases the amount of guns held by security guards, increases the amount of employment for security guards, etc. It's all a plus.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

They are just trying to provide for their family.. why the hate .. I say release all the bank/ store robbers in jails/prisons who didn't use weapon to steal as long as they can prove it was to provide for their family.

I don't think we should be equating illegal immigration with violent crime.

 

[Da Guru]

There are all heading to China.

 

[Gordo]

While illegal immigrants don't technically have to pay these taxes, more are choosing to do so because they want to be up to date and squared away with the IRS in the event that immigration policy changes and they can safely apply for legal status.

not buying this

I do not have an opinion on their reasoning for paying state or federal taxes, but I can say with certainty that a percentage of illegal aliens do pay those taxes.

 

[Parrothead]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

They are just trying to provide for their family.. why the hate .. I say release all the bank/ store robbers in jails/prisons who didn't use weapon to steal as long as they can prove it was to provide for their family.

I don't think we should be equating illegal immigration with violent crime.

morticians and grave diggers need jobs too..

 

[RoarinSonoran]

"Plus, they do all the jobs that Americans won't do!"

 

[snogger]

Crime, prostitution and drugs are all a boost to the economy. When thieves break a store front and steal stuff, they are helping redistribute income from rich merchants to the poor and dispossesed. Additionally, by breaking the store window they are providing employment for glaziers and glass making companies. It's all a plus.

They are just trying to provide for their family.. why the hate .. I say release all the bank/ store robbers in jails/prisons who didn't use weapon to steal as long as they can prove it was to provide for their family.

I don't think we should be equating illegal immigration with violent crime.

Like I said.. No Weapon involved.. OK.. How about this.. We release those that broke into an unoccupied house/business, or many.. never harmed anyone or threatened anyone and did no damage other than steal a few items to sell to put food on the table

 

[Rayderr]

While illegal immigrants don't technically have to pay these taxes, more are choosing to do so because they want to be up to date and squared away with the IRS in the event that immigration policy changes and they can safely apply for legal status.

not buying this

I do not have an opinion on their reasoning for paying state or federal taxes, but I can say with certainty that a percentage of illegal aliens do pay those taxes.

Zero is a percentage.

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are not willing to tolerate.

Build a fence or wall on our southern border

This would severly hamper open trade between the United States and Latin America. It would radicalize Mexico and put in place a Hugo Chavez type, anti-American leader. Our economy would be worsened greatly not improved.

Penalize employers who hire illegals

Beyond the corruption issue (which would be enormous) and the incredibly high cost of attempting to enforce this, any savings to taxes (which are doubtful in the first place) would be immediately offset by the inflation in prices that would take place immediately.

Deprive illegals of social services- schools, hospitals, etc.

First, this would create an underclass of millions of young gangsters with no hope and no opportunities, and nothing to do with their days except to terrorize your community (when they could be in school learning.) Second, this would create a wave of public health issues, like tuberculosis and the spread of other diseases.

So you see, even if you believe that illegal immigration is a huge problem, it's one where all of the "solutions" proposed are even worse.

 

[Rayderr]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

 

[Socrates11]

OPEN THE BORDERS!! LET EVERYONE IN!! PARADISE CAN BE OURS!!

 

[Parrothead]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are not willing to tolerate.

Build a fence or wall on our southern border

This would severly hamper open trade between the United States and Latin America. It would radicalize Mexico and put in place a Hugo Chavez type, anti-American leader. Our economy would be worsened greatly not improved.

Penalize employers who hire illegals

Beyond the corruption issue (which would be enormous) and the incredibly high cost of attempting to enforce this, any savings to taxes (which are doubtful in the first place) would be immediately offset by the inflation in prices that would take place immediately.

Deprive illegals of social services- schools, hospitals, etc.

First, this would create an underclass of millions of young gangsters with no hope and no opportunities, and nothing to do with their days except to terrorize your community (when they could be in school learning.) Second, this would create a wave of public health issues, like tuberculosis and the spread of other diseases.

So you see, even if you believe that illegal immigration is a huge problem, it's one where all of the "solutions" proposed are even worse.

wat?

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

 

[Ozymandias]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

You can't argue with stupid "progressives". Anybody in the world has a right to come and live in the USA, and they can't be sent home because it would violate their rights.

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are not willing to tolerate.

Build a fence or wall on our southern border

This would severly hamper open trade between the United States and Latin America. It would radicalize Mexico and put in place a Hugo Chavez type, anti-American leader. Our economy would be worsened greatly not improved.

Penalize employers who hire illegals

Beyond the corruption issue (which would be enormous) and the incredibly high cost of attempting to enforce this, any savings to taxes (which are doubtful in the first place) would be immediately offset by the inflation in prices that would take place immediately.

Deprive illegals of social services- schools, hospitals, etc.

First, this would create an underclass of millions of young gangsters with no hope and no opportunities, and nothing to do with their days except to terrorize your community (when they could be in school learning.) Second, this would create a wave of public health issues, like tuberculosis and the spread of other diseases.

So you see, even if you believe that illegal immigration is a huge problem, it's one where all of the "solutions" proposed are even worse.

wat?

What I wrote is hardly confusing.

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

You can't argue with stupid "progressives". Anybody in the world has a right to come and live in the USA, and they can't be sent home because it would violate their rights.

I can take being called stupid, but please leave the progressive part out of it.

 

[PatsWillWin]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

Right, this is the only way you can deport illegal immigrants.

 

[Gordo]

"Plus, they do all the jobs that Americans won't do!"

It may be cliche, but there is some truth that saying. I have witnessed it myself.This is where you say that Americans would take those jobs if they paid more.The market has dictated what those jobs pay, and it is appropriate. Many of those businesses would not be profitable with significantly higher wages.

 

[PatsWillWin]

"Plus, they do all the jobs that Americans won't do!"

It may be cliche, but there is some truth that saying. I have witnessed it myself.This is where you say that Americans would take those jobs if they paid more.The market has dictated what those jobs pay, and it is appropriate. Many of those businesses would not be profitable with significantly higher wages.

Do you support the abolition of minimum wage?

 

[Socrates11]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

You can't argue with stupid "progressives". Anybody in the world has a right to come and live in the USA, and they can't be sent home because it would violate their rights.

Don't forget they also deserve free healthcare, education, and other services your average working American doesn't qualify for...

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

Right, this is the only way you can deport illegal immigrants.

OK. Please tell me how you would go about deporting illegal immigrants?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

I believe he's referring to the civil liberties entitled to all human beings as opposed to the literal civil liberties only entitled to citizens.To accept his point (which I wholeheartedly do) you have to be willing to say that those that aided and abeted the illegals (read: US companies and/or individuals looking to make a buck) are at least partially culpable for the reality that exists today, and therefore to expel these illegals is a moral hypocracy.

 

[timschochet]

"Plus, they do all the jobs that Americans won't do!"

It may be cliche, but there is some truth that saying. I have witnessed it myself.This is where you say that Americans would take those jobs if they paid more.The market has dictated what those jobs pay, and it is appropriate. Many of those businesses would not be profitable with significantly higher wages.

Do you support the abolition of minimum wage?

I don't know about him, but I certainly do. The government should have no right to arbitrarily set wages; these should be by private agreement between employer and worker. Minimum wage has never worked; it only creates inflation.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I don't know the answers.

That said in a time of skyrocketing unemployment the jobs the illegals are doing would in many cases be jobs citizens would do. At least that is my premise. If true the substantial incidental taxes they pay would be paid by citizens and the drain they impose would be lessened with them gone for a net gain. What I am surmizing is that while some argument can be made that illegals are good for the economy in a growth cycle, and I don't necessarily concede the point as I do not know, I seriously doubt that is the case in a retracting economy and job market.

In the end the issue of illegal immigration does not, for me, come down to an economic arguement. Rather it remains a rule of law arguement or a simple natural justice one. They are jumping the immigration line. I don't like line jumpers.

 

[Trey]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

You can't argue with stupid "progressives". Anybody in the world has a right to come and live in the USA, and they can't be sent home because it would violate their rights.

Some people take the immigration argument way too far. I agree that our immigration process needs to be simplified. I am even in favor of granting amnesty to those people that are already in this country just out of convenience. But if it was deemed necessary to deport illegals I don't see how it could be considered a violation of their civil liberties. As far as I'm concerned, living wherever you want to live while ignoring the legal process which millions other must face is not a civil liberty.

 

[Gordo]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

Right, this is the only way you can deport illegal immigrants.

No where did he say that this was the only way. But if the U.S. were to make a concerted effort to deport all illegal immigrants, they would have to resort to this for some of them, not to mention the doors of the legal citizens/immigrnats that they would be knocking on.

 

[snogger]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

 

[PatsWillWin]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

Right, this is the only way you can deport illegal immigrants.

OK. Please tell me how you would go about deporting illegal immigrants?

You're being dramatic and stupid.

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

Right, this is the only way you can deport illegal immigrants.

OK. Please tell me how you would go about deporting illegal immigrants?

You're being dramatic and stupid.

Thank you. Now that we're past the insults, do you want to answer the question? I think it's a reasonable question. You see, I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Rayderr]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously on this board.

 

[Ozymandias]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

You can't argue with stupid "progressives". Anybody in the world has a right to come and live in the USA, and they can't be sent home because it would violate their rights.

I can take being called stupid, but please leave the progressive part out of it.

Agreed. It was redundant.

 

[timschochet]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously on this board.

Raydarr, since Jetswillwin refuses to answer my question, perhaps you will. How would you go about deporting illegal immigrants?

 

[Gordo]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

That would take care of some of them, but not even close to all of them. How do you get rid of the rest?

 

[timschochet]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

All right, go to these work sites, and ask to see people's papers. If they're not in order, arrest them, and send them over the border. Do I have this right?

 

[PatsWillWin]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

All right, go to these work sites, and ask to see people's papers. If they're not in order, arrest them, and send them over the border. Do I have this right?

No, you forgot the Illegal Immigrant Death Squads.

 

[Moe Green]

FAIL

 

[Ozymandias]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

All right, go to these work sites, and ask to see people's papers. If they're not in order, arrest them, and send them over the border. Do I have this right?

No, you forgot the Illegal Immigrant Death Squads.

But before we do that, we have to waterboard them and attach electrodes to their genitals.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

All right, go to these work sites, and ask to see people's papers. If they're not in order, arrest them, and send them over the border. Do I have this right?

No, you forgot the Illegal Immigrant Death Squads.

But before we do that, we have to waterboard them and attach electrodes to their genitals.

Have to assume they know where other cells of undocumented construction workers and housecleaners are.

 

[Ozymandias]

I don't believe there is anyway to deport illegal immigrants in this country without dramatic action that would sicken the stomachs of every civilized person that witnesses it. But if you have a way to do this without the draconian methods I have described, I'd love to hear it.

Just go to work sites that are known to employ illegals. I have to show ID when I go to my job, this isn't really much past that.

All right, go to these work sites, and ask to see people's papers. If they're not in order, arrest them, and send them over the border. Do I have this right?

If they are in the country illegally, this is standard practice in most countries. Try living in Canada without proper papers.

Actually, surprisingly enough, in every country in the world, people who do illegal things can be arrested. I know this is a violation of their basic human rights, but there it is.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

For me the way to address the illegals is not to seek them out, but to intercept them when they interface with the system. The number of contacts with then everyday by law enforcement and at government offices is staggering. Take them into custody when they interface voluntarily or otherwise. Give them a very speedy hearing on their status. If they are shown to be illegal beyond a reasonable doubt deport them.

 

[timschochet]

You guys can joke all you want about torture and illegal death squads, but going to employers or people's homes and arresting undocumented workers is bad enough. It does not represent my ideal of what America should be about. Let other countries ask for peoples' papers and send them away. We're supposed to be different here.

Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry...

I visited the Statue of Liberty last year, and when I read that Emma Lazerus poem, I cried. That's my vision of what America should be about. I'm sorry some of you don't believe this.

 

[Rayderr]

And as always in this issue, we have to look at the so-called "solutions" of those who complain about it:

Deport illegal immigrants

Would cost millions of dollars. Worse, it would be a violation of civil liberties which I believe (and hope) most Americans are

wat?

Do you really want American officials knocking on people's doors, demanding to see citizenship papers, and if these can't be produced, forcing them by gunpoint onto trains headed for the southern border? Remind you of any history?

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously on this board.

Raydarr, since Jetswillwin refuses to answer my question, perhaps you will. How would you go about deporting illegal immigrants?

I think the system we got in my area is great. When the cops arrest you for another offense (or even pull you over for speeding) quick check of the database. If they're not a citizen, back they go. To say we have to resort to Nazi Germany to enforce immigration is utterly stupid, insane, and really shows you don't have a valid argument against it.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry...

I visited the Statue of Liberty last year, and when I read that Emma Lazerus poem, I cried. That's my vision of what America should be about. I'm sorry some of you don't believe this.

My grandparents believed in that too. That's why they went through all the trouble of coming to America through legal channels.