Thomas Pynchon (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

I had Gravity's Rainbow in the past, but don't recall beginning it. Just started reading Inherent Vice because of the movie (which so far, about a quarter of the way into it the novel, I'd have to say was extremely faithful to it, though of course there is a ton of descriptive detail and characterization that the movie couldn't begin to capture). I like it a lot. His latest novel is on deck, Bleeding Edge. Based on descriptions of and examples from The Crying of Lot 49 and Mason & Dixon*, my interest has been piqued with them, as well.

Any thoughts on his body of work in general, or specific recommendations? Which post-modernist American from the last half century would be more likely to win a Nobel Literature prize, Cormac McCarthy (who I'm more familiar with) or Pynchon - and would the legendarily, Salinger-esque reclusive author accept it if he did?

* For instance, the below excerpted quote:

“Does Britannia, when she sleeps, dream? Is America her dream?-- in which all that cannot pass in the metropolitan Wakefulness is allow'd Expression away in the restless Slumber of these Provinces, and on West-ward, wherever 'tis not yet mapp'd, nor written down, nor ever, by the majority of Mankind, seen,-- serving as a very Rubbish-Tip for subjunctive Hopes, for all that may yet be true,-- Earthly Paradise, Fountain of Youth, Realms of Prester John, Christ's Kingdom, ever behind the sunset, safe til the next Territory to the West be seen and recorded, measur'd and tied in, back into the Net-Work of Points already known, that slowly triangulates its Way into the Continent, changing all from subjunctive to declarative, reducing Possibilities to Simplicities that serve the ends of Governments,-- winning away from the realm of the Sacred, its Borderlands one by one, and assuming them unto the bare mortal World that is our home, and our Despair.”

** Wiki bio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon

 

[flysack]

Start with Crying of Lot 49 first.

Then Bleeding Edge is pretty good second choice - it's one of his better ones, and definitely his best post 2000.

However, I personally like V. the best (his first novel). It's like beginner's version of Gravity's Rainbow, which means more focused on hilarity, character, and story without the dense marijuana-induced encyclopedic rambling that turn so many off from GR.

That said, GR is one of the greatest novels of the 20th century. Ulysses and In Search of Lost Time may be better, but no work I've read captures the essence of that century like GR.

"A screaming comes across the sky. It has happened before but there is nothing to compare it to now."

Best opening line, evah.

 

[flysack]

Also, if you feel a bit lost in the breadth of his references, I recommend picking up a copy of The Gravity's Rainbow Companion and the Companion to V.

http://www.amazon.com/Companion-V-J-Kerry-Grant/dp/0820322512/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427452125&sr=1-1&keywords=The+V.+Companion

http://www.amazon.com/Gravitys-Rainbow-Companion-Contexts-Pynchons/dp/0820328073/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427452096&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Gravity%27s+Rainbow+Companion

The GR companion in particular is great at explaining all the scientific references and ideas, which are pretty heady. Pynchon did part of his work at Cornell in engineering (before he switched to English) and his first job out of college was a tech writer for Bell Aerospace (while he wrote V.).

 

[Bob Magaw]

Thanks, I have a feeling I'll be "gravitating" to GR (sorry for the brutal pun).

* Joyce and Flaubert are two more literary giants for which I have their work, but haven't gotten around to exploring. I have read some 20th century "literature" from the likes of Hesse (Narcissus and Goldmund, Glass Bead Game) and Camus (The Plague), and among the classics, loved the timelessness and wit of Don Quixote by Cervantes. Pynchon's wit stands out so far. I haven't been put off by the inhuman, hallucinogenic level of period detail, and in fact, that is also one of the qualities I've enjoyed most. I gather a novel like Inherent Vice is a training wheels version of some of the labyrinthian, intricately plotted magnum opuses such as GR that he is perhaps best (and most deservedly?) known for.

I have read a lot of popular science non-fiction, and enjoy those kind of back stories and references (if some of the digressions in Cryptonomicaon by Neal Stephenson are a pale, remote semblance), so would welcome and look forward to the challenge and intellectual stimulation. Good to know the skeleton keys could come in handy if needed, appreciate the suggestions.

 

[flysack]

Just keep in mind that while Inherent Vice is fun, it's really Pynchon Lite. Real lite.

 

[facook]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

 

[Ilov80s]

Once I finish the books I am reading, I will have to check him out as he deserves a spot on my must read list.

 

[pecorino]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

 

[flysack]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

X

 

[cstu]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

X

I'm not smart enough to enjoy his writing.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Never heard of him.

 

[Ilov80s]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

Cormac has a a way with words, but I always find something slightly lacking in his books. A level of warmth maybe? Everything is just very cold, brutal and as he points out once or twice in The Road, gray. Vonnegut has a wonderful balance of humor, intelligence, and the absurd while keeping his plot interesting. Slaughterhouse 5 is a must read just because of it's place in the modern literary cannon and it's fascinating to hear a writer of his wit and skill write about such a historic event after having lived through it. I am not much for sci-fi, but Sirens of Titan was excellent. you are interested in philosophical topics like free will, destiny, chance and enjoy having organized religion parodied at every turn, it is a must read.

 

[flysack]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

Delillo - Americana, his first novel, is his most inspired and amazing. But his most accessible, mature, and structurally sound novel is the National Book Award winning White Noise.

Underworld is also phenomenal, but it's lengthy. Mao II is another great read, about terrorism and novelists. If you like American history, Libra is a tour de force take on Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK murder.

The Body Artist is short and creepy and worth a read, but it's the beginning of Delillo's decline. Word is nothing after it was that good. I read part of Falling Man and didn't even finish it, and this is coming from a guy who worships Delillo.

 

[flysack]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

X

I'm not smart enough to enjoy his writing.

Sure you are. I'm not all that smart and I enjoy his work. You just have to know which books to read and how to step into his work. Give V. a try. If you don't come away cackling like a goofball at Benny Profane and Pig Bodeine, there's something wrong with you.

 

[flysack]

As for DFW, I suggest starting at the essays. Everyone gushes about Infinite Jest, but truth be told DFW was an A class essayist first, a very good short story writer second, then a decent novelist.

I'd start with "The Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again," his first collection of essays. "Consider the Lobster" is also a good collection, especially the essay "Big Red Son," which is when some magazine paid DFW to attend the AVN awards in Vegas (the porn industry's Oscars). It's hilarious.

After that, check out the short story collection "Brief Interviews With Hideous Men," which in my opinion is his best fictional work.

Then dive into Infinite Jest.

 

[flysack]

Holla back in 10 years and let me know how it went.

 

[Clifford]

Start with Crying of Lot 49 first.

Then Bleeding Edge is pretty good second choice - it's one of his better ones, and definitely his best post 2000.

However, I personally like V. the best (his first novel). It's like beginner's version of Gravity's Rainbow, which means more focused on hilarity, character, and story without the dense marijuana-induced encyclopedic rambling that turn so many off from GR.

That said, GR is one of the greatest novels of the 20th century. Ulysses and In Search of Lost Time may be better, but no work I've read captures the essence of that century like GR.

"A screaming comes across the sky. It has happened before but there is nothing to compare it to now."

Best opening line, evah.

Agree with this on Lot. Very accessible. I got 650+ pages through Gravitys Rainbow and have up. Started Vineland after reading Vice but got turned off by all the west-coast psychedelia ####.

Based on this post I might pick up Rainbow again. Definitely an author any serious lit hound should know.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Maybe sooner, with progress reports.

I'll focus on Pynchon first, because his style is resonating with my sensibility and I'm finding it compelling.

 

[Clifford]

Just keep in mind that while Inherent Vice is fun, it's really Pynchon Lite. Real lite.

His take on Noire detective. Very enjoyable but yeah, little depth. Great ending though.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

Cormac has a a way with words, but I always find something slightly lacking in his books. A level of warmth maybe? Everything is just very cold, brutal and as he points out once or twice in The Road, gray. Vonnegut has a wonderful balance of humor, intelligence, and the absurd while keeping his plot interesting. Slaughterhouse 5 is a must read just because of it's place in the modern literary cannon and it's fascinating to hear a writer of his wit and skill write about such a historic event after having lived through it. I am not much for sci-fi, but Sirens of Titan was excellent. you are interested in philosophical topics like free will, destiny, chance and enjoy having organized religion parodied at every turn, it is a must read.

Thanks for the recs. good point about S5 by Vonnegut, I may have actually read it as assigned reading, possibly as far back as grade school, so basically a LONG time ago, if so. I like to revisit favorite novels, but even if I did read it, can't remember if I liked it or not. I did like the concept of the protagonist becoming "unstuck in time", and kaleidoscopically careening through his past and future as a kind of passive observer, with no control over the process.

 

[flysack]

I read Slaughterhouse in high school. Always meant to come back to it now, post-education, but never have.

 

[cstu]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

X

I'm not smart enough to enjoy his writing.

Sure you are. I'm not all that smart and I enjoy his work. You just have to know which books to read and how to step into his work. Give V. a try. If you don't come away cackling like a goofball at Benny Profane and Pig Bodeine, there's something wrong with you.

Perhaps, but my INTP brain gets too hung on understanding every single sentence.

Just keep in mind that while Inherent Vice is fun, it's really Pynchon Lite. Real lite.

Loved the movie though.

 

[facook]

If you read for pleasure, he sucks.

X

I'm not smart enough to enjoy his writing.

Sure you are. I'm not all that smart and I enjoy his work. You just have to know which books to read and how to step into his work. Give V. a try. If you don't come away cackling like a goofball at Benny Profane and Pig Bodeine, there's something wrong with you.

Perhaps, but my INTP brain gets too hung on understanding every single sentence.

This. It's not that he's not a good writer, it's that he's not pleasuarble to read. Mason Dixon is 6 months of my life I'll never get back.

 

[Todd Andrews]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

Delillo - Americana, his first novel, is his most inspired and amazing. But his most accessible, mature, and structurally sound novel is the National Book Award winning White Noise.

Underworld is also phenomenal, but it's lengthy. Mao II is another great read, about terrorism and novelists. If you like American history, Libra is a tour de force take on Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK murder.

The Body Artist is short and creepy and worth a read, but it's the beginning of Delillo's decline. Word is nothing after it was that good. I read part of Falling Man and didn't even finish it, and this is coming from a guy who worships Delillo.

While I enjoy Pynchon, I much prefer DeLillo and Americana is one of the most brilliant first novels of all time.

 

[Ilov80s]

I read Slaughterhouse in high school. Always meant to come back to it now, post-education, but never have.

I can't imagine having read that in high school. I'm not sure I would have really got it or cared.

 

[pecorino]

As for DFW, I suggest starting at the essays. Everyone gushes about Infinite Jest, but truth be told DFW was an A class essayist first, a very good short story writer second, then a decent novelist.

I'd start with "The Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again," his first collection of essays. "Consider the Lobster" is also a good collection, especially the essay "Big Red Son," which is when some magazine paid DFW to attend the AVN awards in Vegas (the porn industry's Oscars). It's hilarious.

After that, check out the short story collection "Brief Interviews With Hideous Men," which in my opinion is his best fictional work.

Then dive into Infinite Jest.

Totally agree with this plan for reading Wallace.

For Delillo, you can't go wrong with White Noise. I love Vonnegut, too, and put Sirens of Titan and Cat's Cradle right at the top. Personally I would start there.

 

[flysack]

If you like Pynchon you also might want to consider David Foster Wallace and Don Delillo, two of my favorite post modernists.

Thanks,More familiar with the latter, though never read anything by him. Any suggestions from his body of work, either consensus best, or preferred introductions, if not the same? Sounds like it is GR and Crying of Lot 49, respectively, for Pynchon. Though I'm enjoying Inherent Vice for an intro, already have Bleeding Edge and want to add Mason & Dixon, which I take it has also received some critical acclaim.

Another post-modernist novelist I've never read is Vonnegut. Saw the film adaptation of Slaughterhouse Five, but novels like Cat's Cradle and Breakfast of Champion sound interesting.

Have read three by Cormac McCarthy, No Country For Old Men and The Road were prompted by the film adaptations, as well as Blood Meridian. Brilliant descriptive powers and character rendering, more so than intricate plotting, stood out for me.

Delillo - Americana, his first novel, is his most inspired and amazing. But his most accessible, mature, and structurally sound novel is the National Book Award winning White Noise.

Underworld is also phenomenal, but it's lengthy. Mao II is another great read, about terrorism and novelists. If you like American history, Libra is a tour de force take on Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK murder.

The Body Artist is short and creepy and worth a read, but it's the beginning of Delillo's decline. Word is nothing after it was that good. I read part of Falling Man and didn't even finish it, and this is coming from a guy who worships Delillo.

While I enjoy Pynchon, I much prefer DeLillo and Americana is one of the most brilliant first novels of all time.

Seriously. I love it so much I keep a copy on my desk to read snippets when I'm lacking inspiration. It may be a structural mess, but sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph there is nothing better.

 

[Ilov80s]

That's a great category, best debut novel. What do you have?

 

[Ilov80s]

Quick rankings

5. To Kill a Mockingbird

4. Catcher in the Rye

3. The Heart is a Lonely Hunter

2. The Picture of Dorian Gray

1. Catch 22

Odd that none of them are really great novelists IMO, but are somewhat "one hit wonders" of novel writers.

 

[flysack]

Quick rankings

5. To Kill a Mockingbird

4. Catcher in the Rye

3. The Heart is a Lonely Hunter

2. The Picture of Dorian Gray

1. Catch 22

Odd that none of them are really great novelists IMO, but are somewhat "one hit wonders" of novel writers.

This is a pretty good list.

Add Americana and V. Also Zadie Smith's "White Teeth" is phenomenal (too bad everything since has sucked).

Confederacy of Dunces is another that comes to mind.

Oh! - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man might be the winner here. It wasn't just amazing, it debuted a style that would define a generation.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

So is this the thread where you stop talking about Pynchon and move on to other authors?

 

[Ilov80s]

So is this the thread where you stop talking about Pynchon and move on to other authors?

Since the upgrade destroyed our "Thomas Pynchon and other people that know how to write" thread, what choice do we have?

 

[Ilov80s]

Just grabbed The Crying of Lot 49, looking forward to it. Plus it's short which works well for me. I'm trying to do a book a week this year and I'm cheating a bit by choosing shorter novels.

 

[Eephus]

Loved V. Liked Crying of Lot 49. Never could make it over the hump with Gravity's Rainbow.

That was many years ago; I doubt my Internet-addled attention span could make it through nowadays.

 

[Ilov80s]

Loved V. Liked Crying of Lot 49. Never could make it over the hump with Gravity's Rainbow.

That was many years ago; I doubt my Internet-addled attention span could make it through nowadays.

I have no problem reading for hours, put me I front of a TV and its about 3 seconds before I am my phone.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Background article on the author.

http://www.vulture.com/2013/08/thomas-pynchon-bleeding-edge.html

 

[flysack]

Just grabbed The Crying of Lot 49, looking forward to it. Plus it's short which works well for me. I'm trying to do a book a week this year and I'm cheating a bit by choosing shorter novels.

Give it some time. There's an old cliche around literature circles that says a great book will teach you how to read it. This is true with Pynchon's style. The voluminous vocab, the obscure references, and the zany sense of humor take some time to get used to. Give it at least 30 pages before you decide to read on or not. The guy really is damn funny.

 

[flysack]

Loved V. Liked Crying of Lot 49. Never could make it over the hump with Gravity's Rainbow.

That was many years ago; I doubt my Internet-addled attention span could make it through nowadays.

GR is marathon reading. I read half first, put it down for a couple months, read something else, then went back and finished it.

Which is pretty funny considering that's how Pynchon wrote it. He wrote half first, needed money badly so stopped and wrote Crying of Lot 49, then went back and finished GR.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Just grabbed The Crying of Lot 49, looking forward to it. Plus it's short which works well for me. I'm trying to do a book a week this year and I'm cheating a bit by choosing shorter novels.

Give it some time. There's an old cliche around literature circles that says a great book will teach you how to read it. This is true with Pynchon's style. The voluminous vocab, the obscure references, and the zany sense of humor take some time to get used to. Give it at least 30 pages before you decide to read on or not. The guy really is damn funny.

He is hilarious, so far, but not in a Shemp needs cheese way.

I described him to somebody as more subtle, he just seems to have a funny way of looking at the world and the people and things that inhabit it, but it can be intricately communicated before the payoff.

 

[Ilov80s]

Just grabbed The Crying of Lot 49, looking forward to it. Plus it's short which works well for me. I'm trying to do a book a week this year and I'm cheating a bit by choosing shorter novels.

Give it some time. There's an old cliche around literature circles that says a great book will teach you how to read it. This is true with Pynchon's style. The voluminous vocab, the obscure references, and the zany sense of humor take some time to get used to. Give it at least 30 pages before you decide to read on or not. The guy really is damn funny.

One chapter in and I love it, very funny. What a great end to the first chapter:"Such a captive maiden, having plenty of time to think, soon realizes that her tower, its height and architecture, are like her ego only incidental: that what really keeps her where she is is magic, anonymous and malignant, visited on her from outside and for no reason at all. "

Eta About half way through...guy is insane, in the best possible way.

 

[flysack]

That line always stuck with me too.

 

[Sweet J]

He was ok in Perfect Strangers. But he stole the show in Beverly Hills Cop.

EDIT with the correct show.

 

[Ilov80s]

As for post war novelists, what do you guys think about Updike? I wasn't very impressed with the first Rabbit book. Any reason to move forward with him?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Oedipa, perverse, had stood in front of the painting and cried. No one had noticed; she wore dark green bubble shades. For a moment she'd wondered if the seal around her sockets were tight enough to allow the tears simply to go on and fill up the entire lens space and never dry. She could carry the sadness of the moment with her that way forever, see the world refracted through those tears, those specific tears, as if indices as yet unfound varied in important ways from cry to cry.

 

[Ilov80s]

So I ended up finding I liked TCOL49 less as it went on. I liked the gonzo nature of the whole thing, but I found myself just losing interest. I'm not sure I can verbalize why. It felt lost in the world of this mad, lonely woman and there was nothing to really cling to. While that may have been part of the intent, it wasn't all that satisfying to me. As Oedipa's world caved in, I found my interest collapsing with it.