Thoughts on the Rooney rule and Leslier Frazier (1 Viewer)

[ScottyDog]

What are you talking about???

No Sarcasm here. It is a serious question. I work for a large fire department. We hire minorities in what is called "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION". It is a rule where basically there are quotas in hiring. You have to have say 2 women, 2 blacks, 1 hispanic in a recruit class of 30 where the other 24 are white. So basically in a job where you want to have the BEST firemen for YOU AS THE PUBLIC, you have the ones of politically correct ethnicity and gender. I am not saying the minorities are any less skilled as the white guys, but I am saying because of Affirmative Action some people that SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HIRED, ARE HIRED.

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

 

[jerseydevil20]

No Sarcasm here. It is a serious question. I work for a large fire department. We hire minorities in what is called "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION". It is a rule where basically there are quotas in hiring. You have to have say 2 women, 2 blacks, 1 hispanic in a recruit class of 30 where the other 24 are white. So basically in a job where you want to have the BEST firemen for YOU AS THE PUBLIC, you have the ones of politically correct ethnicity and gender. I am not saying the minorities are any less skilled as the white guys, but I am saying because of Affirmative Action some people that SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HIRED, ARE HIRED.

Well said. I hope if I ever need a fireman that he was the most qualified fireman available when hired, white or otherwise. Quotas...

 

[Da Guru]

I love how the context of the word 'minority' usually means 'black'. I guess they are the only minority.

They could interview an Athiest coach and be in compliance.

 

[Sabertooth]

Is it minority or protected class?

 

[belljr]

Just wanted to get a feeling on peoples opinions.

Jerry Jones inquired about if he needed to follow the Rooney rule if he wanted to hire Jason Garrett permanetly. He was told he still has to interview a "minority". Many people say it's still a good experience for coaches to go through the process, even if they know they are not getting the job. I'm sure it can be.

However, Leslie Frazier is now an interim coach and Minnesota does not have to interview anyone else if they do not want too. Should they have to interview a "non minority"?

I believe the best person should get the job regardless and think it's a shame that a rule had to be put in place for doors to be opened. That being said.

Do you think it should be followed both ways?

is this a serious post or a joke post?

Why is it a joke? The spirit of the rule is "equality". Minnesota right now does not have to interview anyone else but Dallas does simply because of the color of their interim coach. Like I said, to me it shouldn't matter but I'm a realist and realize that people are still racist, and minority coaches were not given chances in the past. That being said should the rule be "enforced" on both sides of the equation? I think both in house coaches should be given the job without doing a dog and pony show.

 

[belljr]

I knew someone would start this topic as soon as Frazier got the job. Some things are so predictable.

A black head coach gets hired.

"Rooney Rule sucks!"

Did you even read the thread? I assume this is fishing and will just leave it at that, no idea how you came to your conclusion based on what is posted.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

When you think about it four years ago people questioned the ability for a black head coach to win the Superbowl, 25 years ago people still thought that being black was a detriment to playing QB in the NFL, and less than fifty years ago the Washington Redskins openly refused to have a black player on the roster.

FYPbtw... came on a great quote by Shirley Povich when looking up the year the Redskins finally gave in (only under enormous pressure from the govt) and integrated the team. "Jim Brown, born ineligible to play for the Washington Redskins - integrated into the endzone three time yesterday."

 

[SuperGreen]

all this FFA type stuff being allowed in here the past two weeks is almost comical. is someone asleep at the wheel?

 

[Brunell4MVP]

The NFL simply ignored the fact that current employees are promoted in all corporate environments without interviewing at all. Those promotions are based on their body of work for their employer over a sustained period. There should be a caveat something like this ...

"Should a team terminate a contract with an existing head coach, a currently employed assistant coach that has been on staff more than 2 years may be hired without complying with the Rooney rule."

12% of the US population is black. Yet 23% of NFL head coaches are black and probably 50% of the players are black. Seems to me they've done plenty to reverse previous discrimination, to the point of it being reverse discrimination. It's now the other minorities (hispanic, asian, women) that need to press the NFL on their EEOC policies.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

The Rooney Rule (and affirmative action in general*) is silly in this day and age and should be dumped.If you want to put yourself at a competitive disadvantage by discriminating against qualified applicants based on the color of their skin (and risk decreased performance from other current employees), knock yourself out.*FFA here we come!

The Rooney Rule is not affirmative action. Nothing is said about who should be hired.Saying it wasn't needed in this day and age makes no sense. The NFL had a horrible history of hiring minority head coached before the rule.

 

[CalBear]

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

What are you talking about???

Well, in the NFL, the first black head coach hired in the modern era(*) was Art Shell in 1989. I assert that in 1988, there was at least one black person who was more qualified to coach an NFL team than the worst white head coach. To take some examples, that year the coaching ranks included Frank Gansz (career record 8-22-1), Marion Campbell (career 34-80-1, zero winning seasons in nine years), Darryl Rogers (18-40, zero winning seasons), Ray Perkins (42-75, one winning season), and Gene Stallings (23-34-1, no winning seasons). Do you think that these guys were really the most qualified coaches available, and it's just total coincidence that the NFL had never hired a black head coach in 1988? That's not ancient history; that's 1988. 15 years later, when the Rooney Rule was implemented, there had still only been 5 black head coaches (Shell, Denny Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards). Every one of those guys has a better career record than the guys listed above. I assert that in 2002, prior to the Rooney Rule, there were still terrible white head coaches in jobs that would have been better filled by a black candidate. How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

And the idea that we don't need the Rooney Rule "anymore"--that it was needed way back in the day, but in our new, enlightened society is no longer relevant--is completely absurd. It was implemented seven years ago. I have underwear older than that.

(*) Fritz Pollard was a player-coach for the Akron Pros in 1921 and coached for the Hammond Pros in 1925. All black players were removed from the league in 1926.

 

[thriftyrocker]

How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

A lot of the guys you listed were/are excellent coordinators and got jobs based on that merit. LeBeau created the zone blitz. Capers is the DC of (one of if not) the best current defense in the NFL. Mornhinweg is the OC of (one of if not) the best current offense in the NFL. Yes, I thnk these guys were among the best set of coaches available and deserved a shot. Maybe they don't deserve 2nd and 3rd shots, but you can't point to Caper's record (mostly leading an expansion team both with CAR and HOU) and say that guy should never have been a HC. That's hilarious.

 

[CalBear]

How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

A lot of the guys you listed were/are excellent coordinators and got jobs based on that merit. LeBeau created the zone blitz. Capers is the DC of (one of if not) the best current defense in the NFL. Mornhinweg is the OC of (one of if not) the best current offense in the NFL. Yes, I thnk these guys were among the best set of coaches available and deserved a shot. Maybe they don't deserve 2nd and 3rd shots, but you can't point to Caper's record (mostly leading an expansion team both with CAR and HOU) and say that guy should never have been a HC. That's hilarious.

And there were no excellent black coordinators? Or at least, guys who might have been better than Capers, who was fired after going 4-12, but got the Houston job in 2002 when guys like Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, and Jim Caldwell were available. http://www.findjustice.com/sub/b-coaches.jsp

In that year when the Rooney Rule was instituted, a study showed that, prior to that time:

* the black coaches averaged 1.1 more wins per season than the white coaches

* the black coaches led their teams to the playoffs 67% of the time versus 39% of the time for the white coaches

* in their first season, black coaches averaged 2.7 more wins than the white coaches in their first season

* in their final season, terminated black coaches win an average of 1.3 more games than terminated white coaches

* the black coaches inherited teams with an average of 7.4 wins per season and, during their tenures, increased the average wins for their teams to 9.1 per season.

So, black coaches outperformed white coaches significantly from 1989-2002 (and almost certainly have continued to do so since then), which strongly suggests that the best candidates were not being hired, and furthermore, teams were more likely to fire the black coaches they did have.

 

[thriftyrocker]

How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

A lot of the guys you listed were/are excellent coordinators and got jobs based on that merit. LeBeau created the zone blitz. Capers is the DC of (one of if not) the best current defense in the NFL. Mornhinweg is the OC of (one of if not) the best current offense in the NFL. Yes, I thnk these guys were among the best set of coaches available and deserved a shot. Maybe they don't deserve 2nd and 3rd shots, but you can't point to Caper's record (mostly leading an expansion team both with CAR and HOU) and say that guy should never have been a HC. That's hilarious.

And there were no excellent black coordinators? Or at least, guys who might have been better than Capers, who was fired after going 4-12, but got the Houston job in 2002 when guys like Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, and Jim Caldwell were available.

That's fine, but that's not what you said. You said he was "dreck." I would argue since he was 30-34 at Carolina which is great for an expansion team that the franchise was wrong to fire him so quickly (Kerry Collins drank himself out of Carolina, the team fell apart, and they decided Seifert would solve everything). I would argue he built a good resume at Carolina of being able to bring winning to an expansion team early and the 28-20 record he had the first 3 years of Carolina's existence. I might agree Lovie and Lewis were better candidates (Tomlin was like 29 at that point!) but I think it's wrong to say Capers didn't deserve a second shot or he was a proven failure. Bill Belichick was equally or more so a failure.Jim Caldwell has no business being an NFL head coach.

 

[Csonka4life]

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

What are you talking about???

Well, in the NFL, the first black head coach hired in the modern era(*) was Art Shell in 1989. I assert that in 1988, there was at least one black person who was more qualified to coach an NFL team than the worst white head coach. To take some examples, that year the coaching ranks included Frank Gansz (career record 8-22-1), Marion Campbell (career 34-80-1, zero winning seasons in nine years), Darryl Rogers (18-40, zero winning seasons), Ray Perkins (42-75, one winning season), and Gene Stallings (23-34-1, no winning seasons). Do you think that these guys were really the most qualified coaches available, and it's just total coincidence that the NFL had never hired a black head coach in 1988? That's not ancient history; that's 1988. 15 years later, when the Rooney Rule was implemented, there had still only been 5 black head coaches (Shell, Denny Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards). Every one of those guys has a better career record than the guys listed above. I assert that in 2002, prior to the Rooney Rule, there were still terrible white head coaches in jobs that would have been better filled by a black candidate. How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

And the idea that we don't need the Rooney Rule "anymore"--that it was needed way back in the day, but in our new, enlightened society is no longer relevant--is completely absurd. It was implemented seven years ago. I have underwear older than that.

(*) Fritz Pollard was a player-coach for the Akron Pros in 1921 and coached for the Hammond Pros in 1925. All black players were removed from the league in 1926.

Many of these washout coaches were dinosaurs from college who couldn't adopt to the pro game and style. They also inherited terrible teams like Stallings in Tampa. That said only an idiot would argue that Rich Kotite would be better than X Black/Latino/Asian/Native American young assistant coach at the NFL level or head coach at the college level.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

A lot of the guys you listed were/are excellent coordinators and got jobs based on that merit. LeBeau created the zone blitz. Capers is the DC of (one of if not) the best current defense in the NFL. Mornhinweg is the OC of (one of if not) the best current offense in the NFL. Yes, I thnk these guys were among the best set of coaches available and deserved a shot. Maybe they don't deserve 2nd and 3rd shots, but you can't point to Caper's record (mostly leading an expansion team both with CAR and HOU) and say that guy should never have been a HC. That's hilarious.

And there were no excellent black coordinators? Or at least, guys who might have been better than Capers, who was fired after going 4-12, but got the Houston job in 2002 when guys like Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, and Jim Caldwell were available.

That's fine, but that's not what you said. You said he was "dreck." I would argue since he was 30-34 at Carolina which is great for an expansion team that the franchise was wrong to fire him so quickly (Kerry Collins drank himself out of Carolina, the team fell apart, and they decided Seifert would solve everything). I would argue he built a good resume at Carolina of being able to bring winning to an expansion team early and the 28-20 record he had the first 3 years of Carolina's existence. I might agree Lovie and Lewis were better candidates (Tomlin was like 29 at that point!) but I think it's wrong to say Capers didn't deserve a second shot or he was a proven failure. Bill Belichick was equally or more so a failure.Jim Caldwell has no business being an NFL head coach.

And what exactly has led you to this conclusion? Leading his team to the Superbowl in his first season? Maybe it is leading the division in his second year even though the team has had tons of injuries?

 

[Da Guru]

How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

A lot of the guys you listed were/are excellent coordinators and got jobs based on that merit. LeBeau created the zone blitz. Capers is the DC of (one of if not) the best current defense in the NFL. Mornhinweg is the OC of (one of if not) the best current offense in the NFL. Yes, I thnk these guys were among the best set of coaches available and deserved a shot. Maybe they don't deserve 2nd and 3rd shots, but you can't point to Caper's record (mostly leading an expansion team both with CAR and HOU) and say that guy should never have been a HC. That's hilarious.

And there were no excellent black coordinators? Or at least, guys who might have been better than Capers, who was fired after going 4-12, but got the Houston job in 2002 when guys like Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, and Jim Caldwell were available.

That's fine, but that's not what you said. You said he was "dreck." I would argue since he was 30-34 at Carolina which is great for an expansion team that the franchise was wrong to fire him so quickly (Kerry Collins drank himself out of Carolina, the team fell apart, and they decided Seifert would solve everything). I would argue he built a good resume at Carolina of being able to bring winning to an expansion team early and the 28-20 record he had the first 3 years of Carolina's existence. I might agree Lovie and Lewis were better candidates (Tomlin was like 29 at that point!) but I think it's wrong to say Capers didn't deserve a second shot or he was a proven failure. Bill Belichick was equally or more so a failure.Jim Caldwell has no business being an NFL head coach.

And what exactly has led you to this conclusion? Leading his team to the Superbowl in his first season? Maybe it is leading the division in his second year even though the team has had tons of injuries?

Rod Marinelli could lead the Colts to the playoffs. Guys like Caldwell and Tomlin took over SuperBowl ready teams with veteran franchise QBs in place already so it is tough to judge how good of coaches that they really are. They did not take over the Detroit Lions or Cleveland Browns. Lovie Smith had a way rougher road than Caldwell and Tomlin. Plus Manning runs the Colts. In the last two years I have seen Caldwell send on the FG unit only to have Manning wave them off the field on his own. So not sure how much say Caldwell really has.

 

[thriftyrocker]

Jim Caldwell has no business being an NFL head coach.

And what exactly has led you to this conclusion? Leading his team to the Superbowl in his first season? Maybe it is leading the division in his second year even though the team has had tons of injuries?

Rod Marinelli could lead the Colts to the playoffs. Guys like Caldwell and Tomlin took over SuperBowl ready teams with veteran franchise QBs in place already so it is tough to judge how good of coaches that they really are. They did not take over the Detroit Lions or Cleveland Browns. Lovie Smith had a way rougher road than Caldwell and Tomlin. Plus Manning runs the Colts. In the last two years I have seen Caldwell send on the FG unit only to have Manning wave them off the field on his own. So not sure how much say Caldwell really has.

Yes. Further, Caldwell was the QB coach before he took over. His sole role in the success of the Colts is letting Peyton do whatever he wants. The Colts rightfully gave Dungy a lot of respect and let him choose his successor. Without that, Caldwell would be a nobody.

Caldwell's record at Wake Forest was like a 25% winning percentage. One bowl appearance. Would he even have gotten another college gig without Dungy?

 

[CalBear]

Yes. Further, Caldwell was the QB coach before he took over. His sole role in the success of the Colts is letting Peyton do whatever he wants. The Colts rightfully gave Dungy a lot of respect and let him choose his successor. Without that, Caldwell would be a nobody.

And the point is, this is exactly what has happened with white coaches for years. The true measure of equality is not whether a great black candidate gets promoted as quickly as a great white candidate; it's whether a black schlub gets promoted and retained as long as a white schlub does. Although I don't agree on Caldwell. Wade Phillips, Brad Childress, and Norv Turner took over strong teams, too.

 

[Yenrub]

The Rooney Rule (and affirmative action in general*) is silly in this day and age and should be dumped.If you want to put yourself at a competitive disadvantage by discriminating against qualified applicants based on the color of their skin (and risk decreased performance from other current employees), knock yourself out.*FFA here we come!

The Rooney Rule is not affirmative action. Nothing is said about who should be hired.Saying it wasn't needed in this day and age makes no sense. The NFL had a horrible history of hiring minority head coached before the rule.

 

[Yenrub]

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

What are you talking about???

Well, in the NFL, the first black head coach hired in the modern era(*) was Art Shell in 1989. I assert that in 1988, there was at least one black person who was more qualified to coach an NFL team than the worst white head coach. To take some examples, that year the coaching ranks included Frank Gansz (career record 8-22-1), Marion Campbell (career 34-80-1, zero winning seasons in nine years), Darryl Rogers (18-40, zero winning seasons), Ray Perkins (42-75, one winning season), and Gene Stallings (23-34-1, no winning seasons). Do you think that these guys were really the most qualified coaches available, and it's just total coincidence that the NFL had never hired a black head coach in 1988? That's not ancient history; that's 1988. 15 years later, when the Rooney Rule was implemented, there had still only been 5 black head coaches (Shell, Denny Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards). Every one of those guys has a better career record than the guys listed above. I assert that in 2002, prior to the Rooney Rule, there were still terrible white head coaches in jobs that would have been better filled by a black candidate. How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

And the idea that we don't need the Rooney Rule "anymore"--that it was needed way back in the day, but in our new, enlightened society is no longer relevant--is completely absurd. It was implemented seven years ago. I have underwear older than that.

(*) Fritz Pollard was a player-coach for the Akron Pros in 1921 and coached for the Hammond Pros in 1925. All black players were removed from the league in 1926.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

What are you talking about???

Well, in the NFL, the first black head coach hired in the modern era(*) was Art Shell in 1989. I assert that in 1988, there was at least one black person who was more qualified to coach an NFL team than the worst white head coach. To take some examples, that year the coaching ranks included Frank Gansz (career record 8-22-1), Marion Campbell (career 34-80-1, zero winning seasons in nine years), Darryl Rogers (18-40, zero winning seasons), Ray Perkins (42-75, one winning season), and Gene Stallings (23-34-1, no winning seasons). Do you think that these guys were really the most qualified coaches available, and it's just total coincidence that the NFL had never hired a black head coach in 1988? That's not ancient history; that's 1988. 15 years later, when the Rooney Rule was implemented, there had still only been 5 black head coaches (Shell, Denny Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards). Every one of those guys has a better career record than the guys listed above. I assert that in 2002, prior to the Rooney Rule, there were still terrible white head coaches in jobs that would have been better filled by a black candidate. How about **** Lebeau (12-33, no winning seasons), Dom Capers (48-80, one winning season), Dave Campo (15-33), Marty Mornhinweg (5-27), Dave McGinnis (17-40, no winning seasons), Steve Spurrier (12-20), or **** Jauron (60-82, one winning season--and he got another job later!). Again, do you really thing that collection of dreck was the best set of coaches available? Especially given the success of black coaches hired since the Rooney Rule was implemented?

And the idea that we don't need the Rooney Rule "anymore"--that it was needed way back in the day, but in our new, enlightened society is no longer relevant--is completely absurd. It was implemented seven years ago. I have underwear older than that.

(*) Fritz Pollard was a player-coach for the Akron Pros in 1921 and coached for the Hammond Pros in 1925. All black players were removed from the league in 1926.

Good job CalBear posting all of the coaches stats, it makes for a more credible read. I don't understand why everyone's acting like the Rooney rule is some old ancient rule that we don't need, it's hardly been around. I thought we have had more black coaches than that in the NFL.......it's embarrasing really.To answer the OP's question though, should a nonminority have to be interviewed, I'd say yes. It's a shame we have to do these things, but it's a shame for a lot of things in life. I'm not overly passionate about this topic, I don't get all fired up about it one way or another, I just find it sort of sad that there's only been 5 black coaches in the NFL at the time of the rule implementation.

 

[Yenrub]

Yes. Further, Caldwell was the QB coach before he took over. His sole role in the success of the Colts is letting Peyton do whatever he wants. The Colts rightfully gave Dungy a lot of respect and let him choose his successor. Without that, Caldwell would be a nobody.Caldwell's record at Wake Forest was like a 25% winning percentage. One bowl appearance. Would he even have gotten another college gig without Dungy?

I am not sure how good or bad a coach Caldwell is but I am not sure that looking at his record at Wake Forest can really tell us anything. Wake has only been to 9 bowl games in the schools history.The current coach at Wake has been doing a great job, I think he has taken them to 4 bowls

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

In that year when the Rooney Rule was instituted, a study showed that, prior to that time:

* the black coaches averaged 1.1 more wins per season than the white coaches

* the black coaches led their teams to the playoffs 67% of the time versus 39% of the time for the white coaches

* in their first season, black coaches averaged 2.7 more wins than the white coaches in their first season

* in their final season, terminated black coaches win an average of 1.3 more games than terminated white coaches

* the black coaches inherited teams with an average of 7.4 wins per season and, during their tenures, increased the average wins for their teams to 9.1 per season.

So, black coaches outperformed white coaches significantly from 1989-2002 (and almost certainly have continued to do so since then), which strongly suggests that the best candidates were not being hired, and furthermore, teams were more likely to fire the black coaches they did have.

and it's doubly funny because you're supposedly some kind of statistics guy -- or maybe I have you mixed up with somebody else.

 

[jackdubl]

The larger question is why aren't minorities as a whole offended by this? I can see unqualified candidates loving affirmative action and all derivatives, but why would any self-respecting candidate who's earned the privilege of interviewing for a head coach position want it tarnished over an obligation?You can't legislate morality.

Okay, this conversation is really headed for FFA status but I will offer my two cents here on AA in general.Human nature lends itself to people being more comfortable around people who look similar to ourselves. And there's really nothing wrong with that. The problem is that when since white men were originally the only one's who had any power in this country, they continually hired those who they felt most comfortable with.....other white men.

At the same time, blacks and other groups were blatantly and legally discriminated against. Even when laws made overt discrimination illegal you still had one group (white men) doing all of the hiring in this country. And even after the Civil Rights Act and other legislation of the 1960s, human nature still dictated that people hired people they were most comfortable with.

So even the most qualified non-white male candidates were not getting equal opportunities. What affirmative action did was say to the people doing the hiring "Hey, there are QUALIFIED applicants outside of the pool you are used to working and feel most comfortable with, and we are going to force you to look at them." For the record, I am not in favor of quotas and I am not in favor of hiring unqualified people simply as tokens. What I am in favor of is giving people more opportunities so that ultimately there is more diversity among people making hiring decisions and this is not as much of an issue moving forward.

Speaking to personal experience, I have no problem if AA helps me get an opportuntity because I know for a fact there have been times where I, and moreso those older than me, was denied opportunties because of my skin. It is then up to me what I do with that opportunity. Using my mother as an example, she is now a managing partner of a major accounting firm. Out of over 100 partners she is the ONLY black woman. Did AA help here get opportunities along the way? Almost assuredly so. However, it was up to her to make the most of those opportunities. To this day she is usually the first one in her office and the last one to leave. She's smart, hard-working, and compotent and capitalized on her opportunity. But it's an opportunity she may have never had, had some people not been compelled or mandated to give her equal consideration.

So to answer your question, no I would not and do not feel guilty in the least about any opportunities that I may get simply by being classified as a racial minority because

(1) Throughout history lesser qualified people have gotten jobs because of who they knew and what they looked like and

(2) It's about what you do with the opportunity once you get it.

Your response is genuine and I can't find fault with most of it. However, you mostly gloss over my point. The real issue is that AA and the Rooney rule in these times is largely broken and completely un-necessary. Qualified people (such as your mother) will rise out of any applicant pool and succeed based on their hard work and talents. We live in a more enlightened age than ever before and so people who should receive consideration generally do. Conversely, people who do not wish to consider minorities for any reason can easily skate by any AA policies in place.Racism is never going to go away as long as people focus on it.

How do you think we reached this more enlightened age? By not focusing on the problems? I guess that's how countries like India, Pakistan, China, Middle-Eastern countries, and Africian nations have solved their racial divides. By not talking about it. Actually, our open and transparant dialogue on the subject(which is the very nature of this thread) is how we have come to the place where we are, and that's mostly how we will continue to progress. Not focusing on a problem is basically burying your head in the sand and pretending there is no problem. So talk and focus is good.As far as the Rooney rule, it has it's pluses and minuses. It may be nearing the end of its necessity, sure. And it may not. But saying it's useless because there's no problem anymore, or it's useless because there are ways to circumvent the rule--those are just quick and easy things to say for people who don't like AA in general. What's a better solution?

 

[az_prof]

What are you talking about???

No Sarcasm here. It is a serious question. I work for a large fire department. We hire minorities in what is called "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION". It is a rule where basically there are quotas in hiring. You have to have say 2 women, 2 blacks, 1 hispanic in a recruit class of 30 where the other 24 are white. So basically in a job where you want to have the BEST firemen for YOU AS THE PUBLIC, you have the ones of politically correct ethnicity and gender. I am not saying the minorities are any less skilled as the white guys, but I am saying because of Affirmative Action some people that SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HIRED, ARE HIRED.

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

No offense, but this is bull. Quotas are not legal in the US anymore--and haven't been since 1978 (see Bakke decision). http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/.../Bakke-decision

 

[jackdubl]

What are you talking about???

No Sarcasm here. It is a serious question. I work for a large fire department. We hire minorities in what is called "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION". It is a rule where basically there are quotas in hiring. You have to have say 2 women, 2 blacks, 1 hispanic in a recruit class of 30 where the other 24 are white. So basically in a job where you want to have the BEST firemen for YOU AS THE PUBLIC, you have the ones of politically correct ethnicity and gender. I am not saying the minorities are any less skilled as the white guys, but I am saying because of Affirmative Action some people that SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HIRED, ARE HIRED.

And because of racism, some people that should never have been hired, are hired, as should be obvious from the NFL coaching ranks.

No offense, but this is bull. Quotas are not legal in the US anymore--and haven't been since 1978 (see Bakke decision). http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/.../Bakke-decision

Just an angry white man here, folks. Nothing to see. Move along.

 

[Raider Nation]

He's GOTTA get the job full-time after this, no?

A team with nothing to play for, faced with all kinds of adversity, and they dominate a great Eagles team on the road with a converted WR at QB.

Seriously, Zygi... just do the right thing after the game and make it official. The players obviously play hard for Frazier. That's half the battle.

 

[fatness]

He's GOTTA get the job full-time after this, no?A team with nothing to play for, faced with all kinds of adversity, and they dominate a great Eagles team on the road with a converted WR at QB.Seriously, Zygi... just do the right thing after the game and make it official. The players obviously play hard for Frazier. That's half the battle.

If he doesn't get it in Minnesota some other team will hire him as head coach.