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Time to start thinking about Yu Darvish (1 Viewer)

Hoss_Cartwright

Footballguy
It's time to start thinking about Darvish again.

Rob Bland (Baseball Writer – MLB reports): This offseason, there could be only two elite pitchers available for teams to bid on. While C.J. Wilson looks to sign a deal close to $100M, CC Sabathia may be looking at opting out of his current contract with the Yankees. Before the 2009 season, Sabathia signed a 7 year, $161M contract in which he makes $23M annually from 2010-2015. Add in the fact that there will be at least five teams fighting for the services of two pitchers, an alternative must be found.Yu Darvish, a Japanese right-handed pitcher could be the answer. Although it has not been confirmed that Darvish will even make the trek to North America to play in the MLB, teams are lining up to watch him pitch. Darvish’s ERA in the Japanese Pacific League for the Nippon Ham Fighters sits at 1.47. He also has 223 strikeouts. His 4-seam fastball sits in the 91-94 mph range with a great 2-seamer (or shuuto) with a lot of movement at 89-91 mph. He has a slurve, as well as a split-finger, which seems to be his choice for an out pitch.Many teams will be interested in Darvish, but how many really have the financial ability to bid for him in the posting process. The process is basically a silent auction, with all teams that are interested putting a bid in, and the highest bid wins. The winning team then has 30 days to agree to a contract with the player. If an agreement is not reached, the posting fee is then returned back to the MLB team.A player of Darvish’s magnitude rarely comes up in the posting process, so estimating a potential price is difficult. Really, the only comparison is Daisuke Matsuzaka. In 2006, the Boston Red Sox bid of $51,111,111 earned the rights to negotiate with the right-handed pitcher. Matsuzaka then agreed to a 6 year, $52M contract, that could be worth as much as $60M with incentives. Matsuzaka has been dominant at times, as witnessed by his 2008 season, where he went 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA. He was 4th in Cy Young Award voting after keeping hitters to a .211 average. He has also been below average, as this year, before going on the disabled list, he walked 5.5 batters per 9 innings.There are very few teams with the financial flexibility to pull off such a move, while the other teams will pass Darvish up.New York YankeesWith a payroll over $200M annually, the Yankees can always be in on any free agent, especially a high profile one. Behind CC Sabathia, who may opt out of his current contract, the Yankees have a lot of question marks in the rotation. Ivan Nova has had a solid season, but AJ Burnett and Phil Hughes had extremely disappointing campaigns. If the Yankees want to continue their success in the AL East, Darvish may be the key.Boston Red SoxThe Red Sox, like the Yankees, have a lot of question marks in the rotation. Behind Jon Lester, Josh Beckett and Clay Buchholz, who were extremely solid this year, the rotation has been a mess. Matsuzaka struggled, Lackey has been pretty bad, and Tim Wakefield is nearing the end of his career. They don’t NEED Darvish like the Yankees do.Toronto Blue JaysGeneral Manager Alex Anthopoulos has recently said that he was in Japan scouting Darvish. The Blue Jays also have question marks beyond ace Ricky Romero. Brandon Morrow, Kyle Drabek and Brett Cecil underperformed this year, while 21 year old Henderson Alvarez has really impressed in the second half. The Blue Jays have stated they could take on a payroll of $140-150M when the team is ready to contend.Texas RangersGM Jon Daniels was in Japan in the summer to watch Darvish pitch, and could be a frontrunner for his services. With CJ Wilson ready to hit the free agent market, the Rangers will have a lot of quality innings to replace. Derek Holland is developing into a solid starter, to go along with Colby Lewis and Alexi Ogando.LA DodgersIf the Dodgers ownership issues ever get solved, with the young core of players they have, they could put in a very serious bid. With the franchise struggling, and Hiroki Kuroda’s $12M coming off the books, expect the Dodgers to be aggressive this offseason if a new owner is put in place. One of the most storied franchises in baseball could get a huge boost in having Darvish come to town. Clayton Kershaw and Darvish could create a very formidable duo on the mound.While other teams such as the Washington Nationals, Baltimore Orioles, Chicago White Sox and Seattle Mariners have shown interest, I feel as though these five teams are the best possible fit. They have the money, and they have the willingness to shell it out to the right player.I believe a posting fee near $65,000,000 will gain the negotiating rights to Yu Darvish. While the Yankees and Red Sox are always dangerous, I think that CJ Wilson is the biggest wildcard in the situation. If he walks from the Rangers, look for them to be very aggressive with Darvish. The winning team will likely have to cough up around 6 years and $75M in a contract, meaning the total amount spent by the team would be around $130M over 6 years. For that kind of money, these teams better be sure they are getting the ace they are looking for to take them over the top.
http://mlbreports.com/2011/09/17/darvish/
 
It's time to start thinking about Darvish again.

Rob Bland (Baseball Writer – MLB reports): This offseason, there could be only two elite pitchers available for teams to bid on. While C.J. Wilson looks to sign a deal close to $100M, CC Sabathia may be looking at opting out of his current contract with the Yankees. Before the 2009 season, Sabathia signed a 7 year, $161M contract in which he makes $23M annually from 2010-2015. Add in the fact that there will be at least five teams fighting for the services of two pitchers, an alternative must be found.

Yu Darvish, a Japanese right-handed pitcher could be the answer. Although it has not been confirmed that Darvish will even make the trek to North America to play in the MLB, teams are lining up to watch him pitch. Darvish’s ERA in the Japanese Pacific League for the Nippon Ham Fighters sits at 1.47. He also has 223 strikeouts. His 4-seam fastball sits in the 91-94 mph range with a great 2-seamer (or shuuto) with a lot of movement at 89-91 mph. He has a slurve, as well as a split-finger, which seems to be his choice for an out pitch.

Many teams will be interested in Darvish, but how many really have the financial ability to bid for him in the posting process. The process is basically a silent auction, with all teams that are interested putting a bid in, and the highest bid wins. The winning team then has 30 days to agree to a contract with the player. If an agreement is not reached, the posting fee is then returned back to the MLB team.

A player of Darvish’s magnitude rarely comes up in the posting process, so estimating a potential price is difficult. Really, the only comparison is Daisuke Matsuzaka. In 2006, the Boston Red Sox bid of $51,111,111 earned the rights to negotiate with the right-handed pitcher. Matsuzaka then agreed to a 6 year, $52M contract, that could be worth as much as $60M with incentives. Matsuzaka has been dominant at times, as witnessed by his 2008 season, where he went 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA. He was 4th in Cy Young Award voting after keeping hitters to a .211 average. He has also been below average, as this year, before going on the disabled list, he walked 5.5 batters per 9 innings.

There are very few teams with the financial flexibility to pull off such a move, while the other teams will pass Darvish up.

New York Yankees

With a payroll over $200M annually, the Yankees can always be in on any free agent, especially a high profile one. Behind CC Sabathia, who may opt out of his current contract, the Yankees have a lot of question marks in the rotation. Ivan Nova has had a solid season, but AJ Burnett and Phil Hughes had extremely disappointing campaigns. If the Yankees want to continue their success in the AL East, Darvish may be the key.

Boston Red Sox

The Red Sox, like the Yankees, have a lot of question marks in the rotation. Behind Jon Lester, Josh Beckett and Clay Buchholz, who were extremely solid this year, the rotation has been a mess. Matsuzaka struggled, Lackey has been pretty bad, and Tim Wakefield is nearing the end of his career. They don’t NEED Darvish like the Yankees do.

Toronto Blue Jays

General Manager Alex Anthopoulos has recently said that he was in Japan scouting Darvish. The Blue Jays also have question marks beyond ace Ricky Romero. Brandon Morrow, Kyle Drabek and Brett Cecil underperformed this year, while 21 year old Henderson Alvarez has really impressed in the second half. The Blue Jays have stated they could take on a payroll of $140-150M when the team is ready to contend.

Texas Rangers

GM Jon Daniels was in Japan in the summer to watch Darvish pitch, and could be a frontrunner for his services. With CJ Wilson ready to hit the free agent market, the Rangers will have a lot of quality innings to replace. Derek Holland is developing into a solid starter, to go along with Colby Lewis and Alexi Ogando.

LA Dodgers

If the Dodgers ownership issues ever get solved, with the young core of players they have, they could put in a very serious bid. With the franchise struggling, and Hiroki Kuroda’s $12M coming off the books, expect the Dodgers to be aggressive this offseason if a new owner is put in place. One of the most storied franchises in baseball could get a huge boost in having Darvish come to town. Clayton Kershaw and Darvish could create a very formidable duo on the mound.

While other teams such as the Washington Nationals, Baltimore Orioles, Chicago White Sox and Seattle Mariners have shown interest, I feel as though these five teams are the best possible fit. They have the money, and they have the willingness to shell it out to the right player.

I believe a posting fee near $65,000,000 will gain the negotiating rights to Yu Darvish. While the Yankees and Red Sox are always dangerous, I think that CJ Wilson is the biggest wildcard in the situation. If he walks from the Rangers, look for them to be very aggressive with Darvish. The winning team will likely have to cough up around 6 years and $75M in a contract, meaning the total amount spent by the team would be around $130M over 6 years. For that kind of money, these teams better be sure they are getting the ace they are looking for to take them over the top.
http://mlbreports.com/2011/09/17/darvish/
I'm sure this is accurate, but its damn disgusting. I hope the Yanks don't get near this level of commitment. I have to wonder after Dice K if teams will be down on a mega posting fee.

But then again, his unique background, I think he's Iranian and Japanese, open up all sorts of global marketing potential.

 
Don't think any team is going to be willing to commit 20+ mil per on a Japanese pitcher for that long. Track record of the pitchers that make the transition is short term success followed by a collapse. Plus, there was no doubt Dice K was coming over. So whatever the posting fee, a contract was going to be reached. Darvish hasn't been nearly as adamant about playing in MLB.

Also, after seeing Boston the past month, how can anyone make the case that they need Darvish less than the Yankees?

 
Don't think any team is going to be willing to commit 20+ mil per on a Japanese pitcher for that long. Track record of the pitchers that make the transition is short term success followed by a collapse. Plus, there was no doubt Dice K was coming over. So whatever the posting fee, a contract was going to be reached. Darvish hasn't been nearly as adamant about playing in MLB. Also, after seeing Boston the past month, how can anyone make the case that they need Darvish less than the Yankees?
Because Boston has the greatest farm system and the greatest GM of all time.... hell this guy will probably pay THEM to play for them!
 
Yu Darvish to ask to be posted for MLB teams According to Kyodo News, Yu Darvish will formally ask the Nippon Ham Fighters to make him available for MLB teams this winter.

Darvish is under contract through 2014, but Nippon Ham can make him available through the posting process. Under this scenario, teams would need to submit bids just to secure exclusive negotiating rights. The 25-year-old right-hander went 18-6 with a 1.44 ERA and 276/36 K/BB ratio over 232 innings this season. He should draw plenty of interest in a weak market for starting pitchers, with the Rangers, Blue Jays and Yankees expected to take part in the bidding.

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/344343/yu-darvish-to-ask-to-be-posted-for-mlb-teams

 
id rather throw the money at cj
:goodposting: I really hope Texas backs the truck up for him. I'm just worried the lifted skirt and painted lips of the West Coast is going to pull him away.
I wish you could bet on things like:Will CJ wilson be based on a team east or west of 360 in 2012.
Teams west of 360 that I could see getting him:Texas, LAAAAAAAA, DodgersTeams east of 360 that I could see getting him:Boston, NYY, Washington, AirHogsI would say the odds are 50/50.
 
Report: Darvish to post after Winter Meetings

Yu Darvish is likely to be posted for MLB teams following the Winter Meetings, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com.

There was some speculation that Darvish wouldn't be made available this offseason, but his posting period is now expected to take place sometime after next week's meetings. Rosenthal cautions that it's still not official, and that issues with his Japanese club still need to be worked out, though his divorce settlement is reportedly not a factor. The Yankees, Nationals, Red Sox, and Blue Jays are potential landing spots for Darvish, who could require $50 million in order to secure exclusive negotiating rights.

 
Report: Darvish to post after Winter Meetings Yu Darvish is likely to be posted for MLB teams following the Winter Meetings, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com.There was some speculation that Darvish wouldn't be made available this offseason, but his posting period is now expected to take place sometime after next week's meetings. Rosenthal cautions that it's still not official, and that issues with his Japanese club still need to be worked out, though his divorce settlement is reportedly not a factor. The Yankees, Nationals, Red Sox, and Blue Jays are potential landing spots for Darvish, who could require $50 million in order to secure exclusive negotiating rights.
I'll bet the future ex Mrs Darvish thinks it is still a factor - she will be cheerleading when the bids start coming in
 
Yu Darvish to be posted for MLB teams Thurs.

Yu Darvish revealed on his personal blog that he will be posted for major league teams on Thursday.

Darvish has already drawn speculative interest from some of baseball's biggest spenders and is likely to cash in this winter on a market short on quality starting pitching. The 25-year-old right-hander posted an 18-7 record, a 1.44 ERA and a 276/36 K/BB ratio in 232 innings this past season for the Nippon Ham Fighters. Let the bidding begin.

Source: HardballTalk at NBCSports.com Dec 8 - 1:34 AM

 
The 25-year-old right-hander posted an 18-7 record, a 1.44 ERA and a 276/36 K/BB ratio in 232 innings this past season for the Nippon Ham Fighters.
Silly good numbers. A cut above what Daisuke did in NPB. He's going to be good and he's going to be expensive.Have to think the Yankees are the frontrunner, given their need for SP and their ability to pay. If they want him, they'll make it happen.
 
The 25-year-old right-hander posted an 18-7 record, a 1.44 ERA and a 276/36 K/BB ratio in 232 innings this past season for the Nippon Ham Fighters.
Silly good numbers. A cut above what Daisuke did in NPB. He's going to be good and he's going to be expensive.Have to think the Yankees are the frontrunner, given their need for SP and their ability to pay. If they want him, they'll make it happen.
Yanks never made an offer for Beuhrle or Wilson. Yes I think they have the need but it doesnt seem like theyre willing to spend the $$. I still think theyll make a competitive bid
 
The deadline for teams to submit bids is at 4 pm central. The Jays and Rangers are rumored to be the front runners with the Yankees, Mariners, and Nationals expected to make bids as well.

:popcorn:

 
The deadline for teams to submit bids is at 4 pm central. The Jays and Rangers are rumored to be the front runners with the Yankees, Mariners, and Nationals expected to make bids as well. :popcorn:
I'm hearing today that the Rangers are out, to the point they may not even have made a bid. They don't like his want to pitching for a West Coast team and willingness to go back to Japan if things don't go just like he wants.
 
The deadline for teams to submit bids is at 4 pm central. The Jays and Rangers are rumored to be the front runners with the Yankees, Mariners, and Nationals expected to make bids as well. :popcorn:
I would be quite surprised if the Cubs do not put in a strong bid. I think they will back out on Fielder and concentrate on the international free agents since there is no cap on such spending right now. Darvish, Cespedes, and Jorge Soler all have a decent chance of being Cubs.
 
The 25-year-old right-hander posted an 18-7 record, a 1.44 ERA and a 276/36 K/BB ratio in 232 innings this past season for the Nippon Ham Fighters.
Silly good numbers. A cut above what Daisuke did in NPB. He's going to be good and he's going to be expensive.
Yeah, like $120 million expensive. Glad my team isn't involved in this, guy might turn out to be great, and then again...Big risk, only the high payroll teams and Seattle can do this. This guy could single-handedly sink a small market team.
 
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.

Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.

What's to prevent this?

 
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.What's to prevent this?
Nothing
 
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.What's to prevent this?
Nothing. The A's did this last year with some player whose name escapes me.
 
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.What's to prevent this?
:goodposting:
 
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.What's to prevent this?
While there is nothing to prevent this as the rules are laid out, this is exactly why the Japanese club has 4 days to accept or decline the bid. If they do not feel the bidding team is being honest in their determination to sign the player, they need not accept the bid.Further, if the club makes a winning bid and then makes no real effort to sign the player, all future bids on Japanese players may be rejected sight unseen from the MLB club since the precedent was set.I have to think the Cubs are going to be the team with the winning bid here. Theo is trying to make a name for himself, has a track record of making calculated risks, has money to spend and there are not that many other free agent pitchers available. I mean, CJ Wilson and Mark Buerhle go obscene contracts for what they bring to the table. I read the Red Sox are going after Joe effing Saunders? What else is out there, Jonathon Niese via trade?
 
'guru_007 said:
OK, now bids are in. MLB tells the Ham Fighters what the highest bid was...but not who the bidding team is. Then the Ham Fighters have 4 days to accept or decline the bid. Then the winning team has 30 days to negotiate terms with Darvish. If no agreement is reached, they get their money back from the Ham Fighters and Darvish remains in Japan league.Hypothetical scenario: a MLB team (we'll say the Angels) makes a crazy bid ($80 million) to win rights. Then lowball Darvish with no real intention of signing him. No agreement is reached. They get their money back. Darvish returns to Japan league. All this done simply to keep Darvish away from a rival (Rangers, Mariners) or anyone else.What's to prevent this?
While there is nothing to prevent this as the rules are laid out, this is exactly why the Japanese club has 4 days to accept or decline the bid. If they do not feel the bidding team is being honest in their determination to sign the player, they need not accept the bid.Further, if the club makes a winning bid and then makes no real effort to sign the player, all future bids on Japanese players may be rejected sight unseen from the MLB club since the precedent was set.I have to think the Cubs are going to be the team with the winning bid here. Theo is trying to make a name for himself, has a track record of making calculated risks, has money to spend and there are not that many other free agent pitchers available. I mean, CJ Wilson and Mark Buerhle go obscene contracts for what they bring to the table. I read the Red Sox are going after Joe effing Saunders? What else is out there, Jonathon Niese via trade?
If the Japanese club rejects the highest bid, the player cannot be posted again until the following Nov. 1st. So yes, you can keep a rival from getting the player (temporarily).
 
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Lightning struck twice and we got out of the Wells and Rios contacts. Lesson learned? Nope. Just rolling the dice again with huge money.

 
Lightning struck twice and we got out of the Wells and Rios contacts. Lesson learned? Nope. Just rolling the dice again with huge money.
BIG difference between older players already in decline and spending on a VERY talented younger playerDarvish has plenty of question marks - especially in Canada but he is a potential Ace SP
 
Lightning struck twice and we got out of the Wells and Rios contacts. Lesson learned? Nope. Just rolling the dice again with huge money.
BIG difference between older players already in decline and spending on a VERY talented younger playerDarvish has plenty of question marks - especially in Canada but he is a potential Ace SP
Rios and Wells were both 27 when Ricciardi gave them their their big contracts (the big money on Wells' extension didn't kick in until two years later). The problem wasn't that they were old, it was that they weren't that good.Darvish is exactly the kind of risk Toronto needs to take to compete in their division. Off the field, he should be popular among Toronto's large Asian population and will help to raise the club's profile overseas.
 
I don't have a problem with the Jays betting the house on Darvish. He's 25 and could be a true #1 starter. Some people seem to think that if the Jays are willing to spend 100+ million on someone they should throw it at Fielder, but the Jays offense was above average last season will be better this season (Lawrie and Rasmus all year rather than Nix/Patterson/Rajai/McCoy at 3B/CF, plus progression of Arencibia, Aaron Hill's rotting corpse not playing below replacement level at 2B anymore, LF can't be much worse than last year, etc...):

Pitching on the other hand....

Romero was great but Morrow has been a .500 pitcher with great stuff so far, adding Darvish makes this a strong top 3. Henderson Alvarez looked like the real deal in his time and should be a lock for the rotation. McGowan, Drabek, Cecil, etc... can fight over the #5 spot. Jays pitching was the weakness last season, and they've started to address the bullpen with Santos. Darvish is about the best guy out there to add as an SP (maybe CJ Wilson) and won't cost them prospects in a trade.

Personally, I'd like to see them take it a step further if they get Darvish and try to sign Beltran to play LF and then trade Thames/Snider and a top pitching prospect (Hutchison/Drabek, if neccessary) for another SP (Garza, Gonzalez, Niese, whoever)...

In my ideal situation, Travis Snider becomes the .900 OPS player they expected and gets 600 AB next season, but I fear the team may be losing faith in him.

 
Lot of things to be settled. But if the Jays end up spending 100mill (50mill posting + 50mill contract) for 5 years of Darvish I would consider that way too much of a risk.

Strike zone is so much bigger there. Why these guys coming over have terrific K/BB ratio's. Strike zone gets tighter and it changes everything dramatically. An extra inch at here and there is major. Trust me. :whistle:

Give me Buehrle at 6/90 then Darvish for 5/100+. You are rolling the dice that Darvish is an ace. Give me the proven guy for 15mill/year.

 
Lot of things to be settled. But if the Jays end up spending 100mill (50mill posting + 50mill contract) for 5 years of Darvish I would consider that way too much of a risk. Strike zone is so much bigger there. Why these guys coming over have terrific K/BB ratio's. Strike zone gets tighter and it changes everything dramatically. An extra inch at here and there is major. Trust me. :whistle: Give me Buehrle at 6/90 then Darvish for 5/100+. You are rolling the dice that Darvish is an ace. Give me the proven guy for 15mill/year.
but buehrle is not an ace
 
Lot of things to be settled. But if the Jays end up spending 100mill (50mill posting + 50mill contract) for 5 years of Darvish I would consider that way too much of a risk. Strike zone is so much bigger there. Why these guys coming over have terrific K/BB ratio's. Strike zone gets tighter and it changes everything dramatically. An extra inch at here and there is major. Trust me. :whistle: Give me Buehrle at 6/90 then Darvish for 5/100+. You are rolling the dice that Darvish is an ace. Give me the proven guy for 15mill/year.
but buehrle is not an ace
Darvish is an ace? I just don't think it's smart for a team like Toronto to pay someone ace money without knowing that.
 

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