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Truck runs through Xmas market in Berlin: 12 dead, 52 injured- UPDATE- Suspect shot dead near Milan (1 Viewer)

As for Tunesia, it is not excactly a democratic paradise but generally seen to be the country that has had the most positive outcome of the Arab spring (but suffers from extreme lack of jobs and a sort of demoralized youth, given that the Arab spring did not actually help them much in terms of more hope for the future)

 
Sorry? Can you unpack that?
Well simply because one person was rejected as a refugee and then radicalized doesn't mean all will be. A case study is a study of one case. Drawing a generalization from that case is often problematic, because individual cases are just that -- highly individualized fact patterns that can't be duplicated, nor might they be appropriate to draw generalizations about the whole of the core issue.  

 
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As for Tunesia, it is not excactly a democratic paradise but generally seen to be the country that has had the most positive outcome of the Arab spring (but suffers from extreme lack of jobs and a sort of demoralized youth, given that the Arab spring did not actually help them much in terms of more hope for the future)
Two different Tunisia's, that of the capital and that of the desert.  The suspect is from the former, and he was likely raised in a very strict Islamic environment.  Whether he came to Europe thinking he was going to find freedom like many Tunisians do is debatable, but he like many other immigrants, probably found Europe to be exactly the opposite as he thought it would be.  Or maybe he just planned to kill a bunch of people from the get go, but I doubt it. 

Radical Islam allows for those who are frustrated with their existence to lash out, what I find troubling is the age some of these people are committing heinous acts at.  early to mid 20s is an age to explore things, not to set yourself in a mindset of the forgotten.  Plow some chicks, experiment, develop into an adult.  Hijacking a truck and killing a bunch of innocent people is not what young adults do, they haven't had enough exposure to the downside of humanity to truly understand how awful things can be.  It's sad, but it's not Merkel's fault, it's not Europe's fault, it's not islam's fault.  It is the fault of the parents, the tribe, the locality of his upbringing.  Ignorance, boredom, poverty, illiteracy. 

 
Well simply because one person was rejected as a refugee and then radicalized doesn't mean all will be. A case study is a study of one case. Drawing a generalization from that case is often problematic, because individual cases are just that -- highly individualized fact patterns.  
Obviously. I was more thinking in terms of changes to the asylum procedure. 

The migrants come to Europe and the US in search of a better life, searching for jobs, livelihood, safety, hope. They endure extreme physical duress and when they arrive, reality sets in, they are less than welcome, the streets ar enot paved with gold, opportunity is not in abundance. To boot, at least in Europe the go throught the (potentially Kafkaesque) asylum seeking process designed to root out those who are "merely" economic migrants - so those can be sent back whence they came.

Now, clearly, they make a choice on embarkation of that journey, but it is a poorly informed choice, and everyone suffers from it. So how can we 

1) influence the choice

2) if the choice is made, ensure it does not blow up in our faces

That aside, I think there are more cases than one to be studied, not all lead to terrorism, some lead to miseable lives spent on the run or at least on the lamb, crime etc. Some lead to hope and happiness. We should determine and reinforce that which lead to the good outcomes, and reduce in strength that which leads to bad outcomes for us.

 
Obviously. I was more thinking in terms of changes to the asylum procedure. 

The migrants come to Europe and the US in search of a better life, searching for jobs, livelihood, safety, hope. They endure extreme physical duress and when they arrive, reality sets in, they are less than welcome, the streets ar enot paved with gold, opportunity is not in abundance. To boot, at least in Europe the go throught the (potentially Kafkaesque) asylum seeking process designed to root out those who are "merely" economic migrants - so those can be sent back whence they came.

Now, clearly, they make a choice on embarkation of that journey, but it is a poorly informed choice, and everyone suffers from it. So how can we 

1) influence the choice

2) if the choice is made, ensure it does not blow up in our faces

That aside, I think there are more cases than one to be studied, not all lead to terrorism, some lead to miseable lives spent on the run or at least on the lamb, crime etc. Some lead to hope and happiness. We should determine and reinforce that which lead to the good outcomes, and reduce in strength that which leads to bad outcomes for us.
I think reasonable people can agree on this. But IIRC, and not from the alt-right, the people of Syria were sort of marching into Germany chanting slogans and the like. It was a bit antiquated (and i take your point about refugee processes being Kafkaesque. I know you mean the utter existential futility and hatred of the byzantine and arbitrary nature of bureaucratic Europe). But much as it was a dark time for Syria, it's a confusing time for Germany. You have people marching through Turkey chanting "Alluha Akbar" and tearing down gates to get into your country. Those people sound like invaders, rather than refugees. It becomes very difficult to distinguish, and the two culture clashes are on full display. A more radicalized Turkey won't take the refugees, what does Germany do?  

 
Two different Tunisia's, that of the capital and that of the desert.  The suspect is from the former, and he was likely raised in a very strict Islamic environment.  Whether he came to Europe thinking he was going to find freedom like many Tunisians do is debatable, but he like many other immigrants, probably found Europe to be exactly the opposite as he thought it would be.  Or maybe he just planned to kill a bunch of people from the get go, but I doubt it. 

Radical Islam allows for those who are frustrated with their existence to lash out, what I find troubling is the age some of these people are committing heinous acts at.  early to mid 20s is an age to explore things, not to set yourself in a mindset of the forgotten.  Plow some chicks, experiment, develop into an adult.  Hijacking a truck and killing a bunch of innocent people is not what young adults do, they haven't had enough exposure to the downside of humanity to truly understand how awful things can be.  It's sad, but it's not Merkel's fault, it's not Europe's fault, it's not islam's fault.  It is the fault of the parents, the tribe, the locality of his upbringing.  Ignorance, boredom, poverty, illiteracy. 
This I agree with. And also at fault is the ideas that 1) anywhere else is better than here and 2) if I can just cross that border all my problems will be solved.

There are frequently stories in at least Danish media that highlight that the migrants really have zero idea what they are getting into when they embark on their journey, and when reality sets in, when they reach a destination in a Western country they are desillusioned that it turns out to be different than the land of milk and honey. Many react with petulance and spite for having to live regulated lives in camps with limited freedom while they are processed. I have no doubt that the meeting with the bureaucratic necessities (and the anxiety of waiting for a verdict on your life) builds up resentment and make people into easier marks for manipulation.

 
I think reasonable people can agree on this. But IIRC, and not from the alt-right, the people of Syria were sort of marching into Germany chanting slogans and the like. It was a bit antiquated (and i take your point about refugee processes being Kafkaesque. I know you mean the utter existential futility and hatred of the byzantine and arbitrary nature of bureaucratic Europe). But much as it was a dark time for Syria, it's a confusing time for Germany. You have people marching through Turkey chanting "Alluha Akbar" and tearing down gates to get into your country. Those people sound like invaders, rather than refugees. It becomes very difficult to distinguish, and the two culture clashes are on full display. A more radicalized Turkey won't take the refugees, what does Germany do?  
Please don't focus on Syria. What is happening in Syria is a real tragedy. From Syria you get real refugees fleeing actual disaster. 

Whether the Syrian refugees are more or less radicalized by their experiences compared to their countrymen (that did not flee), than their neighbors is an open question.

IIRC the perpetrators of the attacks last year in France were mostly European citizens that have been to Syria (that does not make them Syrian refugees)

The mass sexual harrassment perpetrators of Köln last new year's eve were, in the end, mostly North African migrants, at least from what I have read.

ETA: Allahu Akbar means "god is great" - or, in a Christian context/translation "praise god". This phrase is used for a hell of a lot more than prefacing terrorist attacks, including, actually praising god (at least their god). 

 
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He also wasn't a refugee, has family in Germany, and Tunisia claimed he was not theirs.  So it seems to me Germany couldn't deport him even even they wanted to, he had no country willing to claim him.  Where would they send him? 
Just some notes here:

- According to La Stampa he arrived in Italy in 2011.

- And AFP reports that Tunisia has confirmed his citizenship.

- Amri also had a prison record in Italy.

I guess one serious problem is that Tunisia did deny his citizenship. So you're right before the attack what could Germany do as they could not send him back to a country that would not have him.

That's two foreign policy problems, one at the initial intake by Italy and then later where the home country refused to acknowledge citizenship. That's not something police can handle, it has to be dealt with foreign ministries in accords.

 
For committing what crime? 
Are these not crimes?

He also tried to recruit an accomplice for a terror plot – which the authorities knew about – but still remained at large.

He was under investigation for planning a 'serious act of violence against the state' and counter-terrorism officials had exchanged information about him last month.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4054140/How-German-police-bungled-hunt-Europe-s-wanted-man-Asylum-seeker-23-wrongly-blamed-Christmas-market-massacre-jumping-red-light.html#ixzz4TaZTIO9A
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
 
Traveling and I was at the market a few days before this happened, my hotel was only about 5 minutes away.  It's strange to think about if he already had this in mind at the time; how he picked when exactly etc.  I haven't really followed the story very closely for a number of reasons.

Was at the Frankfurt Christmas market for a few hours today and it was business as usual, people happy, no overt extra security that I could tell.

Had to cross a few streets and have to admit I had an eye on any big trucks, couldn't help imagining the worst.

I am glad to see people were still there happy in celebration with their families.

 
Traveling and I was at the market a few days before this happened, my hotel was only about 5 minutes away.  It's strange to think about if he already had this in mind at the time; how he picked when exactly etc.  I haven't really followed the story very closely for a number of reasons.

Was at the Frankfurt Christmas market for a few hours today and it was business as usual, people happy, no overt extra security that I could tell.

Had to cross a few streets and have to admit I had an eye on any big trucks, couldn't help imagining the worst.

I am glad to see people were still there happy in celebration with their families.
I'd love to visit Germany during Christmas time.

Such a great country.

 
He's yours

No he's not

He's yours

No he isn't

You have to take him back

No we don't, never heard of him
Amri was arrested once in Germany for forged ID papers. He served 4 years in prison in Italy. He was under surveillance for plotting robberies and selling drugs. He was also a part of a terrorist cell.

The problem is the same we've seen in France and Belgium - the police could not constantly keep him under surveillance. 

 
Amri was arrested once in Germany for forged ID papers. He served 4 years in prison in Italy. He was under surveillance for plotting robberies and selling drugs. He was also a part of a terrorist cell.

The problem is the same we've seen in France and Belgium - the police could not constantly keep him under surveillance. 
24 hour surveillance of a guy that might be a jihadist is both time consuming and expensive. At some point you have to prioritize and most of these guys don't end up worth tailing. What you are looking for is a ring, a cell, a plot. You are rarely going to be able to stop one executing a plan, that's why ISIS has been more successful at jihad than Al-Qaeda. AQ requires a parade of people to pull anything off with meetings, and couriers, and lots of comm. 

 
Link

Police have disrupted a terrorist plot to detonate improvised explosive devices at locations in central Melbourne, possibly on Christmas Day, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says.



Key points:


  • Police believe plot involved use of explosives and other weapons and could have been planned for Christmas Day
  • High profile locations including Federation Square and Flinders Street Station were targeted, police say
  • Five people arrested still in custody and are being questioned by police




Seven people were arrested overnight at properties in Flemington, Meadow Heights and Dallas in Melbourne over the alleged plot, which police said was inspired by the Islamic State (IS) group.

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews described the plot as an "act of evil", while Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Graham Ashton said police had seized "the makings of an improvised explosive device".

Speaking at a press conference today, Mr Turnbull said: "Overnight our police and security agencies have disrupted a very substantial terrorist plot.

"Overnight, the Victoria Police, working with the Australian Federal Police and ASIO, have arrested seven persons, five of whom are still in custody, searched five premises and are continuing to search them.

"What they have uncovered is a plot to explode improvised explosive devices in central Melbourne in the area of Federation Square, on or about Christmas Day.


"This is one of the most substantial terrorist plots that have been disrupted over the last several years."



The raids were part of a counter-terrorism operation involving Victoria Police, the Australian Federal Police and ASIO.


Federation Square, Flinders Street Station possible targets


Commissioner Ashton said it was believed a number of people were intending to carry out an attack involving explosives and other weapons.

"Over the last fortnight … we have had to conduct a criminal investigation relating to the formation of what we believe was a terrorist plot," he said.


"We believe that there was an intention to conduct what we call a multi-mode attack, possibly on Christmas Day."



Police believe the locations to be targeted include Federation Square, Flinders Street Station, and St Paul's Cathedral.

Commissioner Ashton said: "We believe [the plot] was going to involve an explosive event, the use of explosives, and we gathered evidence to support that.

"There has also been evidence that we will lead around the possibility of an intention to use other weapons. That could include knives and/or a firearm."

Commissioner Ashton said four of the people arrested were Australian-born and aged in their 20s.

"The age groups range between 20 and 24 or 25. There is another suspect in this matter who will be charged that was an Egyptian-born Australian citizen. All the others were Australian-born," he said.



 
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Yeaah, humerous that the EU has islamists able to just prance all around the place thanks to the open borders.
Is that what happened here? Wasn't he killed by police.

If a man does something terrible in California are we closing the borders in Washington. 

Life carries on despite these lunatics.

 
The General said:
Is that what happened here? Wasn't he killed by police.

If a man does something terrible in California are we closing the borders in Washington. 

Life carries on despite these lunatics.
Anis Amri's escape was more complicated than slipping across state lines.  After his terrorist attack in Berlin, he made his way to Chambery, France, then to Turin, Italy and finally Milan, where he was killed by police.  From an earlier post, the Schengen Agreement applies to freedom of movement for citizens of the European Union.  Amri was Tunisian, without a passport.  Border security utterly failed.

BTW, if I lived in Washington, I would have asked Oregon a long time ago to close the border with California.  ;)

Totally agree with your final point.

 

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