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Trump and Bigotry: A False Association (1 Viewer)

Maurile Tremblay

Maurile Tremblay

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I could have put this in the Trump thread or in Koya's thread, but I think it's important enough for its own discussion.

You Are Still Crying Wolf

I am not going to copy and paste the article -- it has too many graphs, charts, and other images. Click on the link. There are no pop-up ads or anything.

Bill Maher and others have recently confessed that it was a mistake for Democrats to paint honorable men like John McCain and Mitt Romney as contemptible just because they were standard-issue Republicans. It amounted to crying wolf, and prevented people from heeding similar charges when a truly contemptible candidate like Donald Trump ran for office.

The article I've linked to argues that by trying to associate Trump or his supporters with racism or other forms of bigotry, we are still crying wolf. I find the article persuasive -- a lot more persuasive than I would have expected before reading it.

To my liberal friends worried that Trump's victory signals a growing acceptance of racism or other forms of bigotry in this country: Let's take solace in the evidence that there is no such growing acceptance, and that Trump himself is probably no more bigoted than your average 70-year-old white guy.

To the idiot racists who take Trump's victory as a license to demean or harass minorities: Stop. It is no such license. He's not on your side. Please crawl back under your rock.

 
Good post although i think it is also important to add "Stop attacking Trump supporters, dragging them out of their car and beating them, because they didn't vote for Hitler"

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I could have put this in the Trump thread or in Koya's thread, but I think it's important enough for its own discussion.

You Are Still Crying Wolf

I am not going to copy and paste the article -- it has too many graphs, charts, and other images. Click on the link. There are no pop-up ads or anything.

Bill Maher and others have recently confessed that it was a mistake for Democrats to paint honorable men like John McCain and Mitt Romney as contemptible just because they were standard-issue Republicans. It amounted to crying wolf, and prevented people from heeding similar charges when a truly contemptible candidate like Donald Trump ran for office.

The article I've linked to argues that by trying to associate Trump or his supporters with racism or other forms of bigotry, we are still crying wolf. I find the article persuasive -- a lot more persuasive than I would have expected before reading it.

To my liberal friends worried that Trump's victory signals a growing acceptance of racism or other forms of bigotry in this country: Let's take solace in the evidence that there is no such growing acceptance, and that Trump himself is probably no more bigoted than your average 70-year-old white guy.

To the idiot racists who take Trump's victory as a license to demean or harass minorities: Stop. It is no such license. He's not on your side. Please crawl back under your rock.
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I don't see Trump as particularly racist. Would it be great if he condemned certain statements more forcefully, and avoided making statements that generalize an entire group of people? Certainly. But I don't think Trump himself is any more biased than a typical rich 70 year old white guy, however that amount may be a bit more than some would like from the POTUS.

 
Its funny --seems more like speed traps set for Dems, and them getting dragged out of their cars by GOPers to get beaten --

Thanks for posting I'll take a read --

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Bill Maher and others have recently confessed that it was a mistake for Democrats to paint honorable men like John McCain and Mitt Romney as contemptible just because they were standard-issue Republicans. It amounted to crying wolf, and prevented people from heeding similar charges when a truly contemptible candidate like Donald Trump ran for office.
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Shouldn't the same hold true on the other side though? Obama was going to bring upon the apocalypse, and Hillary was just a continuation of the anti-christ.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
we are still crying wolf.
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I think Maher had a point (and it really wasn't his) that by attacking Romney and McCain and other truly 'normal' Republicans as fascists and misogynists and racists etc. they were just inuring voters to the accusations when an actual instance of such travesties would occur.

However I used to hear this in the Hillary thread and my response was that people are forgetting the point of that story. There was a wolf. Just because people have grown weary of hearing about or just because accusations had been exaggerated in the past doesn't mean that the 'problem' isn't real. That's the real moral of that story. Same is true here with Trump.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
I don't see Trump as particularly racist. Would it be great if he condemned certain statements more forcefully, and avoided making statements that generalize an entire group of people? Certainly. But I don't think Trump himself is any more biased than a typical rich 70 year old white guy, however that amount may be a bit more than some would like from the POTUS.
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At least McCann in '08 spoke up in that Town Hall to nix the bigot / racist Obama remarks.  Trump fanned the flames --

 
ilikedwight said:
Good post although i think it is also important to add "Stop attacking Trump supporters, dragging them out of their car and beating them, because they didn't vote for Hitler"
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It's a good thing you posted this, because now I realize how wrong it is to drag people out of their cars and beat them because of who they voted for. I'm guessing you opened many other eyes as well.  :thumbup:

 
So, Section III, Note 16 basically says he's not a bigot, he's a simpleton who believes anything someone tells him? Well, then, president it is!

I don't think it does a great job addressing Bannon, Carson and others he's surrounded himself with either. He clearly shares values with a lot of people with similar questionable views.

 
Well the previous norm in our political process was that if you tactlessly accused Mexicans of being nothing but rapists, drug-dealers and murderers - it was pretty much the end of the show for you. Since it didn't happen the "wolf" crying by Maher and others(although Maher was early in predicting a possible Trump victory)  may have been more "Come On man!" how can he get away with this stuff- not sure why it never happened. If Bernie is around I think the majority of sensible Trump fence sitters would have started to dig the grave for him. With Hillary around it was stick with the jerk you know.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
It's a good thing you posted this, because now I realize how wrong it is to drag people out of their cars and beat them because of who they voted for. I'm guessing you opened many other eyes as well.  :thumbup:
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That White guy is wicked smaht, almost like T J

 
msommer said:
That's pretty biased/bigoted, though. The world has moved on from those values
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Yes and no. Donald Trump was a 22-year-old during the Summer of Love. Obviously no hippie, but he did not come of age in a time where significant civil-rights gains had yet to be won.

I can definitely buy that Trump grew up in a culturally bigoted environment, nevertheless. Still, that would have been an environment that grouped people primarily by last names and connections ... less by skin color.

 
ffldrew said:
Well the previous norm in our political process was that if you tactlessly accused Mexicans of being nothing but rapists, drug-dealers and murderers - it was pretty much the end of the show for you. Since it didn't happen the "wolf" crying by Maher and others(although Maher was early in predicting a possible Trump victory)  may have been more "Come On man!" how can he get away with this stuff- not sure why it never happened. If Bernie is around I think the majority of sensible Trump fence sitters would have started to dig the grave for him. With Hillary around it was stick with the jerk you know.
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He directly addresses the Mexican=rapists/murderers in the article.  Bottom line, his language wasn't very different from previous presidents/candidates of the recent past. Like Maurile, I wasn't expecting to find this article very persuasive, but it was and at the very least its an thought-provoking/interesting read.

 
Doug B said:
Yes and no. Donald Trump was a 22-year-old during the Summer of Love. Obviously no hippie, but he did not come of age in a time where significant civil-rights gains had yet to be won.

I can definitely buy that Trump grew up in a culturally bigoted environment, nevertheless. Still, that would have been an environment that grouped people primarily by last names and connections ... less by skin color.
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SO it was lack of connections that led to the Central Park 5 ad. That's good to know

 
ilikedwight said:
Good post although i think it is also important to add "Stop attacking Trump supporters, dragging them out of their car and beating them, because they didn't vote for Hitler"
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Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?

I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first moved here that that sort of thing was frowned upon...

I've lived in a lot of places and I tell you people do that all the time.

 
Walking Boot said:
Wrong. He did not say Mexicans were nothing but rapists, drug-dealers, and murderers. He said that it's too easy for those that are rapists, drug-dealers, and murderers to get into this country. That's it. That's not racist, that's fact, and it's the same thing Bill Clinton said as president.

Try reading. Sound out the big words if you have to.
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Actually here's one example of what he said:

“When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending the best. They're not sending you, they're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists and some, I assume, are good people, but I speak to border guards and they're telling us what we're getting."
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It's a statement about Mexican immigrants. I don't think it necessarily reads as racist. I do think it's a mischaracterization of the bulk of the immigrants.

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?

I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first moved here that that sort of thing was frowned upon...

I've lived in a lot of places and I tell you people do that all the time.
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If you believe someone LITERALLY voted for Hitler it wouldn't be wrong to beat them. That is why it was so dangerous for the Clinton Team and Media to label Trump as a racist Hitler.

 
ilikedwight said:
If you believe someone LITERALLY voted for Hitler it wouldn't be wrong to beat them. That is why it was so dangerous for the Clinton Team and Media to label Trump as a racist Hitler.
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It'd be similarly dangerous for the Clinton Team and Media to label Trump the devil - right?

 
And make no mistake about it, the author hammers Trump as the awful politician and person he is.  He just is making the case to quit blowing up certain aspects that aren't really there and freaking everyone the eff out. (Example: Koya's thread)

Stop centering criticism of Donald Trump around this sort of stuff, and switch to literally anything else. Here is an incompetent thin-skinned ignorant boorish fraudulent omnihypocritical demagogue with no idea how to run a country, whose philosophy of governance basically boils down to “I’m going to win and not lose, details to be filled in later”, and all you can do is repeat, again and again, how he seems popular among weird Internet teenagers who post frog memes. In the middle of an emotionally incontinent reality TV show host getting his hand on the nuclear button, your chief complaint is that in the middle of a few dozen denunciations of the KKK, he once delayed denouncing the KKK for an entire 24 hours before going back to denouncing it again. When a guy who says outright that he won’t respect elections unless he wins them does, somehow, win an election, the headlines are how he once said he didn’t like globalists which means he must be anti-Semitic.
Click to expand...

 
msommer said:
SO it was lack of connections that led to the Central Park 5 ad. That's good to know
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Here is the Central Park 5 ad from the NY Daily News, 5/1/1989. It is not on its face a racist ad, I don't believe. Especially considering the text of the second paragraph.

Whether Trump was racially motivated to place the ad, I cannot say. I've always heard that it was a racist ad, but today was the first time I sought out the original ad itself and read it through.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I think Maher had a point (and it really wasn't his) that by attacking Romney and McCain and other truly 'normal' Republicans as fascists and misogynists and racists etc. they were just inuring voters to the accusations when an actual instance of such travesties would occur.

However I used to hear this in the Hillary thread and my response was that people are forgetting the point of that story. There was a wolf. Just because people have grown weary of hearing about or just because accusations had been exaggerated in the past doesn't mean that the 'problem' isn't real. That's the real moral of that story. Same is true here with Trump.
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The point is that Trump is not the wolf you're looking for.

 
Uwe Blab said:
And make no mistake about it, the author hammers Trump as the awful politician and person he is.  He just is making the case to quit blowing up certain aspects that aren't really there and freaking everyone the eff out. (Example: Koya's thread)
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But the thing is, there are statements and incidents from Trump's past that indicate he may be racist. My biggest concern in that regard are the alleged discriminatory renting practices. That pretty clearly indicates racism to me.

 
Gr00vus said:
It'd be similarly dangerous for the Clinton Team and Media to label Trump the devil - right?
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off the cuff remark that was not meant to be taken literally during the debate is the same as Hillary and the media actively campaigning against Trump as Hitler?

 
I read this before when someone else posted it in another thread, and two specific issues with it jumped out at me.

1. The statistical analysis regarding minority support for Trump is flawed and misleading.  First and foremost, it compares 2012 and 2016 minority support for the GOP candidate without a single mention of a somewhat important variable- the fact that there was a black guy running for president on the other side of the ticket in 2012.  To leave that variable out of the analysis and the discussion is a fatal flaw. 

Also this is less important, but the "jump of greater than 5%" was actually a very small jump from something like 6% to 8% of the black vote or thereabouts.  It's not what most people think of when they think of a 5% increase (jumping from 45 to 50 or 10 to 15 or what5ever).  It's simply >105% of Romney's ridiculously low support level among African-Americans to a still-ridiculously low number.

Bottom line- if Romney was running for president against a black guy universally loved by the black community and you're running for president against a white woman the black community is kinda "meh" on and you still barely outperform Romney, you can't really argue that you've appealed to the black community in some significant way.  It's like saying if I score 21 points on the Cleveland Browns defense and you score 20 on the Minnesota Vikings defense, I have a better offense than you do.

2.  The examples he chooses for Trump's racism that he then rejects seem flawed.  They're mostly about his supporters. Yes, having racist supporters doesn't make you racist.  But getting sued by DOJ for racism in rental practices- and then again for violating the terms of your settlement agreement- makes you racist.  Getting fined by the Casino Control Commission for agreeing to keep black employees away from certain patrons makes you racist. Conflating black people and "inner cities" as if no black people live anywhere else when in fact most of them do makes you racist.  None of these things are mentioned in the article.  And the few actual examples he does cite- birtherism, his comments on Curiel, etc.- are dismissed as just Trump being crazy.  But you can be crazy and also racist.  If your racism comes from insanity instead of well-thought-out hatred of minorities, it's still racism.

 
Gr00vus said:
But the thing is, there are statements and incidents from Trump's past that indicate he may be racist. My biggest concern in that regard are the alleged discriminatory renting practices. That pretty clearly indicates racism to me.
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or rather Dollarism

 
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To me, its less of who he really is...a wolf or not (and I don't think he knows) and more of what he has allowed to be brought into the campaign --

I don't get all the time spent with the % and numbers --of course folks these days aren't going to identify publicly with the KKK or alt rights groups -fact is, his cabinet is suspect in those regards --that's not crying wolf - and at that point it only matters who he's listening to, wolf or not.

 
Walking Boot said:
You should listen to that again, he's not saying what you claim he is. Nowhere does he label all Mexicans as nothing but criminals. Try again.
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No, only the ones that come to the US. Some, he assumes (but clearly has no confidence in that statement) are good people

 
I'm not sure I buy the author's primary arguments but I do agree with his conclusion that the racism/anti-Semite stuff is getting far too much attention relative to the many other things that make Trump an awful choice for President.  I think that's probably just because it's easier for the public to understand.

 
Gr00vus said:
From an August campaign stop:
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Difference is people think it is believable that Trump will turn into the next Hitler(proven by Hillary voters beating Trump voters). How many people listening do you think said to themselves "Wow, Hillary is literally Lucifer, let me go and beat her supporters up"

 
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