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Trump and Bigotry: A False Association (2 Viewers)

cap'n grunge said:
I don't think that terms like racist, sexist, or bigot are necessarily the best to ascribe to Trump. I would say it's pretty clear he is an opportunistic fear/hate monger who has fed on a certain sector of society's emotions for his own personal benefit. "Build the wall!" is classic rhetoric designed to create division amongst the public and a strawman for people to feed into as the source of all their problems. I know people roll their eyes anytime comparisons get made to Hitler and the Nazis, but how is this nativism bull#### that much more different than how those #######s gained power by blaming the Jews for all of Germany's problems? 
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No brown shirts for one

 
Trump's not a Nazi, he's not HItler. He's not even in the same solar system. Maybe, maybe he capitalized on some similar sentiments. But he's not driving things in that kind of direction. Let's stop making that comparison, please. He's got plenty of problems, that's not a legitimate one.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I  think most people would say that acting racist makes you a racist
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But who decides what "acting racist" is?  If I'm offended about a joke about white guys not being able to dance, does that make the person who said it a racist?  There are some acts that are inherently racist, but last I checked Trump hasn't been involved in any lynchings, cross burnings, or parties hosted by Jet Magazine.

 
The Commish said:
Curious...what would have to do / not do in order to "pass" that test in your eyes Tim?
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As you know, my biggest fear regarding a Trump Presidency is that he would react to a terrorist attack by infringing upon civil liberties, specifically those of Muslim Americans.

 
timschochet said:
As you know, my biggest fear regarding a Trump Presidency is that he would react to a terrorist attack by infringing upon civil liberties, specifically those of Muslim Americans.
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Can you give us some examples of what you think Trump would do to Muslim Americans?

 
ilikedwight said:
Can you give us some examples of what you think Trump would do to Muslim Americans?
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Internment, harassment by the federal government, false arrests, boycotts- if there is a big terrorist attack things could get ugly very quickly. 

But I try to be optimistic and believe all this is unlikely. As I wrote, I want to believe that Trump is not a bigot, despite the crap he spewed in order to get elected. 

 
cap'n grunge said:
I don't think that terms like racist, sexist, or bigot are necessarily the best to ascribe to Trump.
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Perhaps. But when the quack meets the duck, then what?

That his incomprehension of why using nukes is a bad idea arguably is worse than any of his personality failings listed above should not deflect from that characterization of him,

That his ideas on trade are far more likely to plunge the world into its worst recession since the 19th century or even ever than to create the coal and manufacturing jobs he has promised, still should not force us to overlook his personality failings.

Why should it?

 
The whole "boy cried wolf" thing only makes sense if you think that there's a real chance of an actual wolf.  And in the author's view, the wolf is a guy running around saying "I love the KKK!"  But the article itself discusses that there's only like 1% of the population that wants segregated schools or would move away from a black neighbor, or belongs to a hate group, etc.. So there's never going to be a wolf the way he defines a wolf, because that guy could never get the public support to be a serious candidate for President (maybe for some lower office, but I doubt even that).  We don't really need to be afraid that we've used up our words when that dude shows up, because that dude isn't showing up.

Either Trump is the wolf or there's never gonna be a wolf.  

 
Statorama said:
But who decides what "acting racist" is?  If I'm offended about a joke about white guys not being able to dance, does that make the person who said it a racist?  There are some acts that are inherently racist, but last I checked Trump hasn't been involved in any lynchings, cross burnings, or parties hosted by Jet Magazine.
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We all do, collectively.  And I think most people would say that discriminating based on race is racism, even if the primary motivation is financial. You are free to disagree, but as RHE pointed out regarding slavery as financially motivated, youre gonna paint yourself into an unpleasant corner very quickly. 

 
squistion said:
There wasn't a wolf there all the time. The first few times the kid was lying about it. When there really was a wolf, no one would believe him, hence the moral:

Moral


Liars are not believed even when they speak the truth.



If you disagree maybe contact Wiki and tell them they got the moral in Aesop's fable wrong, that the moral is: There really is a wolf and it has nothing to do with lying, contrary to how the fable was written and what people have believed for hundreds of years.
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I don't think you and I disagree on the moral. How's that? I'll adopt the above, works just as well for my point.

Then one evening as the sun was setting behind the forest and the shadows were creeping out over the pasture, a Wolf really did spring from the underbrush and fall upon the Sheep.
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Maurile Tremblay said:
If you use up all of your "openly racist" accusations on Donald Trump, you will be ignored when an actually openly racist candidate like David Duke throws his hat into the ring.
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There are gradations of racism.

And hey maybe people think of racism differently than me. Maybe people - maybe you? - think Trump isn't subtly racist as well. Heck I can give you reasons and examples when Duke was subtly racist as well. He didn't always show up in a hood and nazi armband, typically after the 1970s-80s or so he never did.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
The whole "boy cried wolf" thing only makes sense if you think that there's a real chance of an actual wolf.  And in the author's view, the wolf is a guy running around saying "I love the KKK!"  But the article itself discusses that there's only like 1% of the population that wants segregated schools or would move away from a black neighbor, or belongs to a hate group, etc.. So there's never going to be a wolf the way he defines a wolf, because that guy could never get the public support to be a serious candidate for President (maybe for some lower office, but I doubt even that).  We don't really need to be afraid that we've used up our words when that dude shows up, because that dude isn't showing up.

Either Trump is the wolf or there's never gonna be a wolf.  
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Yes, there is a 538 article that essentially addresses both your point and stat's.  Which is that Americans don't agree on what racism is.  Now, if you ask me, absolving anyone who doesn't lynch someone or burn crosses of racism is defining racism way, way down. 

Someone telling his (overwhelmingly white) audience to be on the lookout for voter fraud in "other communities" meets my definition pretty easily. 

 
Gr00vus said:
How does that conflict with what I said? People weren't taking it seriously because Trump said it? I don't understand your point.
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Oh, just don't think the fact that it was a poll question is an indication that enough people were serious about whether or not Hillary is literally the Devil. It's just an indication that Trump said it and they wanted to survey people about things Trump said. And, yeah, I don't believe for a second that 41% of Trump supporters in NC believe that Hillary is actually the Devil. I think there are likely better explanations for that result. No biggie.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
There are gradations of racism.

And hey maybe people think of racism differently than me. Maybe people - maybe you? - think Trump isn't subtly racist as well. Heck I can give you reasons and examples when Duke was subtly racist as well. He didn't always show up in a hood and nazi armband, typically after the 1970s-80s or so he never did.
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Do you only have problems with white racists? I can't recall seeing you ever criticize a racist that wasn't white. Are only white people racist in your mind?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
God forbid, one day we might have somebody who doesn’t give speeches about how diversity makes this country great and how he wants to fight for minorities, who doesn’t pose holding a rainbow flag and state that he proudly supports transgender people, who doesn’t outperform his party among minority voters, who wasn’t the leader of the Salute to Israel Parade, and who doesn’t offer minorities major cabinet positions. And we won’t be able to call that guy an “openly white supremacist Nazi homophobe”, because we already wasted all those terms this year.
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I get this point.

I think a better point is people who pointed to a Romney or McCain and 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'-like point and shout 'racist!' because they did not have a black staff or cabinet member in their Senate or Governor's office, and then do the same with a Trump and surprise surprise no one listens.

Even so that doesn't mean that Trump (arguably) is not a racist, he might very well be.

As for the Duke vs Trump thing, I don't know if I've argued that Trump is overtly racist like Duke. But you also have to realize that Duke in past campaigns was not always 'overtly' racist himself. As I have said before the key is getting white people to 'race identify as 'white' and then acted politically based on that race identification. That is pretty subtle stuff and IMO that is something that Duke and Bannon have in common, even though Bannon himself is not a white supremacist, a fascist or anything like that, even if he arguably is just fallen into it because it makes BB a sht-ton load of money, it still happens and it makes the genuine 'overt racists', the truly ideological ones, truly happy.

 
ilikedwight said:
Do you only have problems with white racists? I can't recall seeing you ever criticize a racist that wasn't white. Are only white people racist in your mind?
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No. I probably have a pretty broad or different idea of racism, I might admit to that. I think maybe I've been affected by growing up with black people with French last names, and 'white' people who have 'black' heritage and 'white' people who have the opposite. I myself come from an arguably 'ethnic' background but can walk into any country club from Bushwood to Palm Springs with zero problem. Funny to me how people react and make assumptions based on assumptions. - eta - I also come from a city and state with a long history of race politics both black and white. Heck there are blacks here who think some blacks aren't really 'black'. Figure that one out.

 
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dgreen said:
Oh, just don't think the fact that it was a poll question is an indication that enough people were serious about whether or not Hillary is literally the Devil. It's just an indication that Trump said it and they wanted to survey people about things Trump said. And, yeah, I don't believe for a second that 41% of Trump supporters in NC believe that Hillary is actually the Devil. I think there are likely better explanations for that result. No biggie.
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I know Trump doesn't literally think HRC is the devil. But he didn't say it for the heck of it. Similarly with Ben Carson's rhetoric associating Clinton with lucifer - although I don't know if I can give Carson that much credit, he may actually believe that. Trump said it because he knew it appealed to some non-trivial part of his supporters. And I don't think you can write all of those Trump was appealing to as just joking around. So the number is there, I'd like to think a decent amount of it was a result of people joking around, but I seriously doubt the entirety were. So we're left to wonder how many weren't - but I'm fairly certain it wasn't 0.

The main point is that any people seriously equating either candidate with the Devil or HItler is a problem, and it happened on both sides.

 
TobiasFunke said:
We all do, collectively.  And I think most people would say that discriminating based on race is racism, even if the primary motivation is financial. You are free to disagree, but as RHE pointed out regarding slavery as financially motivated, youre gonna paint yourself into an unpleasant corner very quickly. 
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It's just a slippery slope to lump anyone who says, does, or thinks something that has to do with race into a big racist barrel.

But to a larger point (and back to the original article of the thread) people are being a accused of being racist even if the subject has nothing to do with race.

A perfect example is requiring a photo ID for voting.  I think that's a great idea.  That means no one else can just walk up and say they are you and vote in your place.  For some reason, some people think that's racist.  No....only requiring black people to have a photo ID is racist.  Only requiring hispanics to have a photo ID is racist.  Those kinds of things circle back to the original article of the thread.  If people are constantly playing the race card about things they don't like, which may not have a racial component at all, when the really big racist stuff comes up people will treat it as noise (not unlike the boy crying wolf comparison).

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
No. I probably have a pretty broad or different idea of racism, I might admit to that. I think maybe I've been affected by growing up with black people with French last names, and 'white' people who have 'black; heritage and 'white' people who have the opposite. I myself come from an arguably 'ethnic' background but can walk into any country club from Bushwood to Palm Springs with zero problem. Funny to me how people react and make assumptions based on assumptions.
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Can you give us some examples of you criticizing a racist on this forum that wasn't white? You've been on here a long time so surely there should be some examples. A lot of people have this belief that only white people can be racist and that is crazy to me.

 
lakerstan said:
I do not know if Trump is racist.  But I know racists supported Trump over other candidates.  I would wonder why racists saw an attraction in Trump.  

It is clear that the alt-right movement, who supported Trump, was started by white supremacists (Richard Spencer), and while it has changed, a racist element still exists.

I posted this in the other thread:

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
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this is wrong. I would agree majority of white racists probably supported Trump over other candidates, but majority of black racists probably supported Hillary over Trump.

 
ilikedwight said:
Saints what do you think of this article?

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/145560612726/the-robot-judge
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ilikedwight said:
But right-and-wrong aside, is it a good legal strategy for Trump to sow doubts about the objectivity of the robot judge?
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Personally I think specious arguments are always terrible. I have no idea why or how DJT accusing the judge of being biased because of his 'race' woudl do anything but anger the guy, as oppose to something more substantive like business or political connections to someone in the case.

ilikedwight said:
My guess is that they want to keep him because they expect to lose the case and they plan to pin it on the judge. That’s how I would play it.
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Why would an appeals court act any differently than what I described above? They would treat this as a gimmick, not just eat the thin gruel right out of Trump's hand.

ilikedwight said:
To make things worse, Trump is pro-life.
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{Cough} Er, no.

ilikedwight said:
The one small problem with Trump’s strategy of questioning the robot’s objectivity is that it creates one more point of confirmation bias that Trump is a racist.
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I don't know about everyone else. I gave my definition of a racist and I have conceded there are gradations. The only worse though is someone who plays the race card just for electoral or legal effect. That's demagoguery, then it's screwing with people and I actually think that's really bad. I will be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Donald and just say he just has some racist beliefs and he doesn't have the gland that most people have which filters his statements, maybe due to his extremely protected upbringing and status.

 
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Statorama said:
A perfect example is requiring a photo ID for voting.  I think that's a great idea.  That means no one else can just walk up and say they are you and vote in your place.  For some reason, some people think that's racist.  No....only requiring black people to have a photo ID is racist.  Only requiring hispanics to have a photo ID is racist.  Those kinds of things circle back to the original article of the thread.  If people are constantly playing the race card about things they don't like, which may not have a racial component at all, when the really big racist stuff comes up people will treat it as noise (not unlike the boy crying wolf comparison).
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The problem with this analysis is those laws are motivated by a desire to disproportionately affect poor and black people. Often, the intent is ridiculously blatant (see the NC law struck down by the court).

Basically the Republican legislatures don't want minorities and poor people to vote because they vote for Democrats more than Republicans.

 
ilikedwight said:
it was my belief that the black supremacist movement BLM supported Hillary over Trump. Is that not true?
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BLM is not a black supremacist movement.

They have spoken out against white supremacy and white supremacists - which is not the same thing as advocating black supremacy.

 
ilikedwight said:
Can you give us some examples of you criticizing a racist on this forum that wasn't white? You've been on here a long time so surely there should be some examples. A lot of people have this belief that only white people can be racist and that is crazy to me.
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You haven't been here a long time? You certainly seem like you have.

Hm, probably there's a Sharpton post. I'm sure I got involved defending the 'wrong types' like General Tso during the Baltimore or NY protests.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
There are gradations of racism.

And hey maybe people think of racism differently than me. Maybe people - maybe you? - think Trump isn't subtly racist as well. Heck I can give you reasons and examples when Duke was subtly racist as well. He didn't always show up in a hood and nazi armband, typically after the 1970s-80s or so he never did.
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Right: racism isn't a binary thing where either you're racist or you're not. There's a continuum of racism with all kinds of gradations.

I don't think there's any doubt that Trump is more racist than average. I do think there's pretty good evidence that he's not on the extreme end of the continuum. You can go to any mall and find people more racist than he is. And yet he's often portrayed as being on the extreme end -- with people associating him with the KKK and whatnot based on questionable evidence.

You can call him subtly racist and I don't think many would argue. But according to the Google, people are calling him "openly racist" more than three times as often as they are calling him "subtly racist" (about 70,000 results to about 23,000). The "openly racist" charge, however, is not nearly as well supported. I.e., people are overreaching, and the overreaching amounts to crying wolf.

 
Well, we made it through four pages of interesting conversation on racism and Trumpism without going completely off the rails.  So thats something, at least  :hifive:

 
lakerstan said:
BLM is black supremacist?  

By definition, they just want to matter.  Not matter MORE.  It isn't BLM....M
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Black Lives Matter... no, all lives matter. When you focus on only one group the implication is they matter more than the rest.

Why do people in the BLM movement target and kill white cops? Harass people on social media for being white? I know personally I have been attacked countless times on twitter for being white and ridiculed as well. There is a lot of racism in the BLM movement and it is being ignored by the mainstream media. If it was a white group called white lives matter and they killed black cops and made racist comments on social media no doubt in my mind the media would be talking about how WLM is a white supremacist hate group that is very dangerous.

 
ilikedwight said:
it was my belief that the black supremacist movement BLM supported Hillary over Trump. Is that not true?
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I suppose that if African American racists voted Trump over Hillary it would explain why he got more votes in that segment than anticipated

 
I'm still catching up on this thread but what already jumps out to me with this thread and the many others is just how horrible Hillary was as a candidate and what a poor campaign she ran.  To lose to this clown was an epic fail by her and her staff.

 
Statorama said:
It's just a slippery slope to lump anyone who says, does, or thinks something that has to do with race into a big racist barrel.

But to a larger point (and back to the original article of the thread) people are being a accused of being racist even if the subject has nothing to do with race.

A perfect example is requiring a photo ID for voting.  I think that's a great idea.  That means no one else can just walk up and say they are you and vote in your place.  For some reason, some people think that's racist.  No....only requiring black people to have a photo ID is racist.  Only requiring hispanics to have a photo ID is racist.  Those kinds of things circle back to the original article of the thread.  If people are constantly playing the race card about things they don't like, which may not have a racial component at all, when the really big racist stuff comes up people will treat it as noise (not unlike the boy crying wolf comparison).
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Does intent apply to racism?  It's a tricky thing, but I think so.

I believe that you think requiring a photo ID for voting is a good idea because it makes sense.  And I don't think you're racist for thinking that.  I also believe that there is a not-small set of people that think requiring a photo ID for voting is a good idea specifically because they think it will suppress the percentage of African Americans that are able to vote.  And that I would consider racist.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Right: racism isn't a binary thing where either you're racist or you're not. There's a continuum of racism with all kinds of gradations.

I don't think there's any doubt that Trump is more racist than average. I do think there's pretty good evidence that he's not on the extreme end of the continuum. You can go to any mall and find people more racist than he is. And yet he's often portrayed as being on the extreme end -- with people associating him with the KKK and whatnot based on questionable evidence.

You can call him subtly racist and I don't think many would argue. But according to the Google, people are calling him "openly racist" more than three times as often as they are calling him "subtly racist" (about 70,000 results to about 23,000). The "openly racist" charge, however, is not nearly as well supported. I.e., people are overreaching, and the overreaching amounts to crying wolf.
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Well ok, I'll sign off on that. However that one idea I mentioned, that 'white' Americans identify as a cohesive racial/racialist block, even if subtle or accidental, is potentially very dangerous. The people who have been dreaming of that reaching a greater audience are some very unsavory people and they think that is their gateway to greater power or influence. - eta - I think it also poses greater problems for the US of the sort we typically think of in other countries with ethnic strife, and I don't mean of the Rodney King/Watts sort.

 
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