UPGRADE ATL RB's (1 Viewer)

[Stealthycat]

Every FF magazine I've read has the Atlanta OL ranked very high. Strength of schedule against the pass is high too, but against the run is weak. Everything indicates ATL will face on the weak side run team, strong against the pass teams and now ? We will see ( with the assured departure of Vick IMO ) a team that will run MORE with Joey at the helm.

Joey will pass, and they won't abandon it, but the RB's in Dunn and Norwood, especially Norwood, will get major ammounts of carries. They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.

Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb's

THOUGHTS ?

 

[jurrassic]

Don't disagree. I like Norwood this year too, don't know if it's justified. Dunn will still get his.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

If Vick doesn't play, I would not touch an Atlanta RB, because the threat of Vick made a lot more room for the RBs. They had to respect Vick. His impact on the RBs is vastly overlooked in my opinion.

 

[jurb26]

I don't agree. Like it or not, Vick was still a very dangerous football player. One who was game planned for more than even most other QBs. He opened up rushing lanes because he was a rushing threat himself... maybe the teams best rushing threat. Vick was Atl's most important and best offensive player. I find it hard to upgrade anyone on the team w/o him. Maybe a WR will emerge, but then again we've said that the past 4 years with Vick there anyway.

 

[Stealthycat]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.

Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.

They'll have to, and they will

 

[jurb26]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.

Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.

They'll have to, and they will

Ummm, no I didn't. I'm just stating that I don't think you can assume simple math and add Vick's 1000/2 on the ground to the RBs. Vick was as special player, with special talents and abilities. People tried to claim the same thing about Cpep when Moss left town. How'd that work out?

 

[Banger]

wrote this in a Dunn thread a day or so ago....

Ya, but with a terrible defense, no wr's, Harrington at QB, and a decent line I don't see how this situation is any better than Miami '06 (and I don't know if either backs are better than R. Brown at this point). If you can't pick up a 1st down, no matter how much you want to run the ball you just won't have to opportunities. Couple that with a terrible defense and they will be playing from behind each game which takes the ball out of the RB's hands early in the 2nd half.

I'm not a huge fan of Vick's but his scrambling ability gets 1st downs, keeps drives alive and keeps the defense off the field. Put Harrington in place of Vick and this team is sunk.

....I've seen a couple O-line rankings and they weren't in the top 11 in one and were 20th in the other. In a couple threads on o-lines here on the site they were in middle most times so I'd say they are average. This team without Vick would struggle terribly offensively each week (not that they were great with him) and they'd probably have the worst time of possession in the league. Couple that with the fact that non-qb's scored 7 rushing td's for the team last year and when you divide the rushing yards in half, there's not a lot to like.

 

[Sea Bass]

If Harrington is the qb Atlanta is going to play catchup most of the season. Not a good sign for a team already using a rbbc.

 

[Banger]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.They'll have to, and they will

1) both those rb's are muuucchhh better rb's and 2) there's a HUGE difference running the ball with Vick in the backfield as a threat and having someone on the defense solely dedicated/shadowing him as opposed to having no Vick and another guy in the box looking to stop the run. Since there's no receiving threat besides Crumpler they would routinely face 8-9 in the box. Atlanta's line isn't good enough to run the ball down another teams throat when everyone in the building is expecting a run nor do they have those type of runners.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

I don't agree. Like it or not, Vick was still a very dangerous football player. One who was game planned for more than even most other QBs. He opened up rushing lanes because he was a rushing threat himself... maybe the teams best rushing threat. Vick was Atl's most important and best offensive player. I find it hard to upgrade anyone on the team w/o him. Maybe a WR will emerge, but then again we've said that the past 4 years with Vick there anyway.

 

[Lord Lucan]

Every FF magazine I've read has the Atlanta OL ranked very high. Strength of schedule against the pass is high too, but against the run is weak. Everything indicates ATL will face on the weak side run team, strong against the pass teams and now ? We will see ( with the assured departure of Vick IMO ) a team that will run MORE with Joey at the helm.Joey will pass, and they won't abandon it, but the RB's in Dunn and Norwood, especially Norwood, will get major ammounts of carries. They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb'sTHOUGHTS ?

The last sentence is one of the silliest I've ever read on this forum, assuming you aren't fishing. Part of the RBs' success in Atlanta has been the fact that the defense has had to spy Vick on the ground (as well as take into account the fact that he has a big, if erratic arm). If Vick is out, defensive coordinators are just going to stack the box because they just won't think that Harrington, Horn and Jenkins can beat them. They'll respect Crumpler, but that's about it.A more likely outcome is that Atlanta's balance will be affected, they will suffer far more early three and outs, their time of possession will slump, they will be playing from behind more, and the rush yards will suffer.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.They'll have to, and they will

There is a HUGE difference between Bulger or Rivers and Harrington.

 

[Stealthycat]

okay

Dunn and Norwood are fodder, with Vick gone the OL won't bock, the easy schedule won't be a factor and they'll score all the Falcons points through the air

if you believe all that, PLEASE trade me Dunn and Norwood, I'll give you bottom prices for them GLADLY

 

[LHUCKS]

Downgrade IMHO. There is no question in my mind that the threat of Vick opened up rushing lanes for Dunn and company.

That being said, Petrino could be the next Martz, nobody really knows how effective his offensive philosophy will be at the pro level...so I don't think this is a "put a fork in it" situation...a lot of unknown variables in the ATL.

Sometimes in FF you've just got to admit you don't know what's going to happen...project ranges, not static totals.

 

[Biabreakable]

Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb'sTHOUGHTS ?

No.Silly person.

 

[RudeDog]

Every FF magazine I've read has the Atlanta OL ranked very high. Strength of schedule against the pass is high too, but against the run is weak. Everything indicates ATL will face on the weak side run team, strong against the pass teams and now ? We will see ( with the assured departure of Vick IMO ) a team that will run MORE with Joey at the helm.

Joey will pass, and they won't abandon it, but the RB's in Dunn and Norwood, especially Norwood, will get major ammounts of carries. They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.

Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb's

THOUGHTS ?

This is not something you should do. The rushing yardage gained by Vick was mostly gained on scrambles from designed passing plays. To assign rushing yardage from a designed pass to a running back is not problematic, it's just plain wrong.

 

[ImTheScientist]

If Vick doesn't play, I would not touch an Atlanta RB, because the threat of Vick made a lot more room for the RBs. They had to respect Vick. His impact on the RBs is vastly overlooked in my opinion.

 

[bcr8f]

If Harrington is the qb Atlanta is going to play catchup most of the season. Not a good sign for a team already using a rbbc.

I'm not so sure. I think their defense will improve this year.

 

[BoltzNBrew]

When is someone going to open a thread on how Vick will impact the ATL kicking game?

 

[kensat30]

Joey Harrington is a downgrade for the entire Atlanta Falcon's football team. From the RBs, to the WRs, TE, the offense, hell the defense, even the head coaches are affected negatively if Harrington is forced to start for any length of time. The guy is just not an NFL caliber QB.

If Vick is out, Atlanta would be downright stupid to not make a move for another QB immediately. The Schaub deal obviously backfired on them, but they can't get caught up in their mistake and do something stupid like Seattle did last year with Steve Hutchingson/Nate Burleson. Harrington as the starter not only guarantees a losing season for Atlanta, but they will be in the exact same spot for next season as well. Atlanta gains NOTHING by starting Harrington.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Joey Harrington is a downgrade for the entire Atlanta Falcon's football team. From the RBs, to the WRs, TE, the offense, hell the defense, even the head coaches are affected negatively if Harrington is forced to start for any length of time. The guy is just not an NFL caliber QB.

If Vick is out, Atlanta would be downright stupid to not make a move for another QB immediately. The Schaub deal obviously backfired on them, but they can't get caught up in their mistake and do something stupid like Seattle did last year with Steve Hutchingson/Nate Burleson. Harrington as the starter not only guarantees a losing season for Atlanta, but they will be in the exact same spot for next season as well. Atlanta gains NOTHING by starting Harrington.

Hutch was not traded (if thats what you are saying), and their contracts are very different.

The problem is that their are no quality QB's on the market....this is a lost year for ATL.

 

[Banger]

When is someone going to open a thread on how Vick will impact the ATL kicking game?

BTW... it will hurt their kicking game.

 

[madoka]

They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.

Although that last sentence was pretty bad, I think this one is worse. It's as if the OP believes they'll get it done simply because the other option is to be the worst and that doesn't seem possible, so the RBs should be upgraded. Fortunately, you don't often encounter such flawed logic on FBG.

 

[Restricted]

Ya, but with a terrible defense, no wr's, Harrington at QB, and a decent line I don't see how this situation is any better than Miami '06 (and I don't know if either backs are better than R. Brown at this point).

First thing I thought.

 

[Stealthycat]

I'm going to remember this thread ..... when Norwood and Dunn have tossed up 2500 yards between them

 

[Mr. Pink]

I'm going to remember this thread ..... when Norwood and Dunn have tossed up 2500 yards between them

I hope you have a good memory.

 

[Duke1948]

Downgrade IMHO. There is no question in my mind that the threat of Vick opened up rushing lanes for Dunn and company.

That being said, Petrino could be the next Martz, nobody really knows how effective his offensive philosophy will be at the pro level...so I don't think this is a "put a fork in it" situation...a lot of unknown variables in the ATL.

Sometimes in FF you've just got to admit you don't know what's going to happen...project ranges, not static totals.

no truer words have been spoken in the thread

 

[kensat30]

Joey Harrington is a downgrade for the entire Atlanta Falcon's football team. From the RBs, to the WRs, TE, the offense, hell the defense, even the head coaches are affected negatively if Harrington is forced to start for any length of time. The guy is just not an NFL caliber QB.

If Vick is out, Atlanta would be downright stupid to not make a move for another QB immediately. The Schaub deal obviously backfired on them, but they can't get caught up in their mistake and do something stupid like Seattle did last year with Steve Hutchingson/Nate Burleson. Harrington as the starter not only guarantees a losing season for Atlanta, but they will be in the exact same spot for next season as well. Atlanta gains NOTHING by starting Harrington.

Hutch was not traded (if thats what you are saying), and their contracts are very different.

The problem is that their are no quality QB's on the market....this is a lost year for ATL.

The Hutchingson example was a "pride" issue. Seattle made a stupid move for Burleson because their front office wanted to get back at Minnesota and save face. What I was saying, is that Atlanta would look kind of dumb to make a move for a QB after trading Schaub to Houston this offseason. But they need to suck it up and admit they made a mistake there by aggressively pursuing another QB. Atlanta should not go into opening day with Harrington as starter if Vick is out. Picks should most definitely be on the table if a QB trade opportunity presents itself.

 

[ThePittbully]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.They'll have to, and they will

Vick, just like Vince, opens lanes. Open lanes = more yards

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm going to remember this thread ..... when Norwood and Dunn have tossed up 2500 yards between them

I hope you have a good memory.

Because I'm guessing 2,500 rushing yards between teammates is rather rare...

 

[Sultans]

If Vick doesn't play, I would not touch an Atlanta RB, because the threat of Vick made a lot more room for the RBs. They had to respect Vick. His impact on the RBs is vastly overlooked in my opinion.

I totally agree. Despite the fact that I am praying for Michael to downed by drive by fire. He is probably the is skilled man running with the football in the league ( Best Moves since Sanders) and is the primary focus of the defense, especially the outside LB's. No Vick means disaster to the ATL running game.

 

[jurb26]

I'm going to remember this thread ..... when Norwood and Dunn have tossed up 2500 yards between them

I hope you have a good memory.

Because I'm guessing 2,500 rushing yards between teammates is rather rare...

Maybe, maybe not. According to the original post however, the number of rushing yardage Stealthycat is trying to project is 2812 rushing yds between the 2. Not 2500.

+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name				 |  G | CMP ATT   PCT YARD  Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Michael Vick		 | 16 | 204 388  52.6 2474  6.4 20 13 | 123 1039  2 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------++----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name				 |  G |  RSH  YARD   AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD   AVG  TD |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Warrick Dunn		 | 16 |  286  1140   4.0   4  |   22   170   7.7   1 || Jerious Norwood	  | 14 |   99   633   6.4   2  |   12   102   8.5   0 |

I'll take the under....

 

[NoFBinLA]

I think they may see more carries - I can't say that will translate to yards. I hope it does, given I own Norwood in a few leagues - but as LHUCKS says, I just don't know.

I wouldn't translate Vick's yards to the RBs - and if there was a different QB (or Joey H really steps up) who could keep the D honest, then you'll see an uptick, or you could.

But until I see what they look like in a few weeks, I just don't know. And even then I JUST DON'T KNOW.

I'd stash them on my bench - they COULD have some nice upside.

I actually think we'll have a clearer idea of what is going on by the time most of us draft.

<===== flip-flopper

 

[gianmarco]

When is someone going to open a thread on how Vick will impact the ATL kicking game?

What is there to be said about it? The punter's leg is going to fall off by midseason?

 

[vandyt]

Every FF magazine I've read has the Atlanta OL ranked very high. Strength of schedule against the pass is high too, but against the run is weak. Everything indicates ATL will face on the weak side run team, strong against the pass teams and now ? We will see ( with the assured departure of Vick IMO ) a team that will run MORE with Joey at the helm.

Joey will pass, and they won't abandon it, but the RB's in Dunn and Norwood, especially Norwood, will get major ammounts of carries. They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.

Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb's

THOUGHTS ?

What mags are these?The Falcons are switching to a power running game with a bunch of undersized Denver-Style linemen, and have added only Justin Blaylock and Toinu Fonoti (sp) to that line. They will probably be one of the 10 worst lines in the NFL this year.

 

[Sweetness_34]

When is someone going to open a thread on how Vick will impact the ATL kicking game?

He already impacts the Falcons K game.....with Vick, you know they can get to the redzone but they cannot score TDs....hence the K game is always pretty good value in a dome

 

[LBH]

I would actually bump everybody up a little bit. Petrino liked to use multiple wr formations at Louisville, and also likes to throw to his RBs out of the backfield. Both Norwood and Dunn are solid recieving rbs. Harrington seems to fit the offense that Petrino wants to run more than Vick does. Not saying Harrington is better or more valuable than Vick, but he just seems like a better fit for the scheme.

 

[The Duff Man]

How many of Vick's 1000 yards came on passing plays? You can turn those yards into passing attempts, not rushing yards for RBs.

 

[ukshane]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.They'll have to, and they will

There is a HUGE difference between Bulger or Rivers and Harrington.

You're right. Joey was drafted higher than Bulger or Rivers... 3rd overall I believe.

 

[ukshane]

how do all the teams WITHOUT a rushing QB have good fantasy RB's ? Rivers don't rush much, Bulger don't ....... yet LT and S Jackson seem to have pretty good rushing stats.Not to say Dunn / Norwood is in the same league LT and S JAckson are, but c'mon, ya'll make it sound like Dunn and Norwood won't rush for more than 600 yards between them and I just don't see ( with the good OL ) them NOT having success at running.They'll have to, and they will

Vick, just like Vince, opens lanes. Open lanes = more yards

If a passing threat opens up running lanes and a running threat opens up passing routes, how exactly does the threat of a run open up running lanes?

 

[rdstorm]

If a passing threat opens up running lanes and a running threat opens up passing routes, how exactly does the threat of a run open up running lanes?

Any weapon has to be accounted for. A QB like Vick has to have someone shadow him on all of his fake bootlegs after each handoff. That one player could be the difference between stuffing the run and busting it big. Usually it's somewhere in between, but it does open things up.

 

[ukshane]

If a passing threat opens up running lanes and a running threat opens up passing routes, how exactly does the threat of a run open up running lanes?

Any weapon has to be accounted for. A QB like Vick has to have someone shadow him on all of his fake bootlegs after each handoff. That one player could be the difference between stuffing the run and busting it big. Usually it's somewhere in between, but it does open things up.

Nice explanation.

 

[fantasyballa]

I don't know that I upgrade ATL RBs...their rushing attack was huge in large part because of Vick and they haven't been huge in through the air.

One thing is for sure, ATL is kicking themselves for trading Matt Schaub.

 

[AngryPatriot]

I don't see it as out of the realm of possibility, we'll see. Norwood was already slated to have a much bigger role anyways. That team has seemed to have an identity crisis to begin with, revolving around Vick. Mentally he is not QB#1 material. Harrington is not the long term answer but they really need to move in a different direction. Where's Matt Shaub when you need him?!

 

[Stealthycat]

Atlanta had the 4th most potent RB's in the league last year in Dunn and Norwood with 1,773 yards between them. Vick couldn't pass then, and he rushed another 1,000 or so yards.

That OL of Atlanta is a good one, make no mistake they HAVE to be.

SD, JAX, CH all have very good OL too and those 3 teams were ahead of ATL and both CHI and JAX had average QB play

Assuming Harrington can provide average QB play, again there will be very good rushing in ATL, lean MORE on the rushing in ATL and I think both Dunn and Norwood have great potential for FF points in 2007/08 ( thanks to Vick )

 

[crush304]

Alex Gibbs is gone, that is not good news for the ATL running game

 

[cha-ching]

Every FF magazine I've read has the Atlanta OL ranked very high. Strength of schedule against the pass is high too, but against the run is weak. Everything indicates ATL will face on the weak side run team, strong against the pass teams and now ? We will see ( with the assured departure of Vick IMO ) a team that will run MORE with Joey at the helm.

Joey will pass, and they won't abandon it, but the RB's in Dunn and Norwood, especially Norwood, will get major ammounts of carries. They'll have to get it done of ATL will be the worst team in the league.

Take away the 1,000 yards and TD's Vick rushes for, add them to the RB's especially Norwood and I'm actually UPGRADING the ATL Rb's

THOUGHTS ?

What mags are these?The Falcons are switching to a power running game with a bunch of undersized Denver-Style linemen, and have added only Justin Blaylock and Toinu Fonoti (sp) to that line. They will probably be one of the 10 worst lines in the NFL this year.

I haven't read any mags but I do know that the "old regime," made the O-line weigh in at 300lbs or less. The "new regime," are allowing the guys to bulk up and that is a BIG positive for veterans like Todd Weiner. I am hearing that Toinu Fonoti looks to be in great shape. The Falcons also signed the bruising full back from Baltimore, Ovie Mughelli.

 

[walkwithme]

The threadstarter didn't apply the stats correctly to justify the upgragde. You can't just subtract Vick's rushing numbers and add them to Norwood and Dunn. There are a lot of changes going on in ATL new offense, coach and possible new QB. The two combined for 2045 total yards (1310 Dunn and 735 Norwood). However they only managed 7 total TD's between them and it wasn't because Vick stole their TD's Vick had only 2 rushing TD's last year. I say their 2007 total will be close to 2006 maybe plus 150 but the distribution switches more to Norwood side as he looks to increase his 2TD total from last year. With Harrington not being a run threat I expect ATL to pass more to the RB's (Dunn and Norwood combined for 34 receptions 2006 Griffith led the RB's with 23 receptions)

 

[burd]

absolutely under no circumstances should Atlanta RBs be upgraded. Without Vick, defenses will key on the running game ... which will grind to a halt unless Harrington plays well.

You want proof of a running game grinding to a halt after a switch at QB? Look at last season's Raiders. Lamont was a running and receiving marvel prior to project Aaron Brooks ... what happened when Aaron came over?

 

[Chairshot]

This doesn't seem like that crazy of an idea to me.

For one, strictly from a passing standpoint, Harrington isn't much worse the Vick. You could probably make a case that he is just as good as Vick is as a passer. Harrington threw for just 200 something less yards then Vick did last year and he only started 9 games. Plus, he completed 57% of his passes, which is higher then Vick and in line with other decent QBs.

And I really don't see how Vick's ability to run really effects the running game. At least not on most downs. On standard first and second downs, a defense is going to have to play both the run and pass regardless of who is under center.

Plenty of Vick's rushing yards come on set QB rushing plays. Those plays are pretty much out the window now, but the team is probably still going to want to run just as often. So those carries have to go somewhere.

Dunn is 32, but he hasn't really shown much sign of slowing down yet. He is a 4.0+ YPC guy over his career. Vick carried the ball over 120 times last year. Even if a third of those carries go to Dunn, you probably have a 150-200 yard bump to his numbers. TDs are hard to tell, especially with Norwood back there to steal the short yardage scores.

I'm not saying that it makes the duo a 2500 yard team (because I don't think they are). But the rushing yards have to come from somewhere. Carries pretty much *have* to go up for the both of them. That alone should give them a bump in numbers.

I say upgrade, but not nearly the upgrade that some others are saying.