US economy thread (4 Viewers)

[Brony]

I feel like we're just a few posts away from Bayesian econometrics models and a definitive solution to all of this.

 

[JAA]

I feel like we're just a few posts away from Bayesian econometrics models and a definitive solution to all of this.

I think it comes down to the masses. If we are good with the current structure, then things will progress as is. If people are tired of the small bites being taken away slowly over time, then there will be change. But the change can only come from the masses.

How to change? Thats a thread for the political forum.

 

[SoBeDad]

Do any major metro areas (to include NYC, Boston, Miami, SF, LA, Honolulu, etc.) NOT have Section 8 housing?

Section 8 housing is available in Miami and has been considered a reliable source of income for landlords, both in private and government run residences. However, the need far exceeds the supply. So, many of these essential workers live in tight quarters with family or friends. Many articles in the local papers have chronicled how difficult it is for teachers to buy or rent housing in the Miami area, for the past decade, and many are living with family into their 30s. A recession could help teachers a little, as long as they keep their job. Ditto for many workers actually.

Fun fact: Miami Beach has many government run subsidized apartments for seniors, cause Miami Beach was one of the oldest cities on earth in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, so seniors had political power. Some of those senior buildings are next to million dollar waterfront condos, built later. The waiting list is long.

Back to the OP. There are many micro economies in any region, but the wealthy and those who keep their jobs can usually weather the storm well. Let's see how high unemployment rises.

 

[JAA]

Our American consumer culture and need to have everything is absolutely the reason for our indebtedness and the "paycheck to paycheck" trend in our middle class.

People don't need a nice house, 2-3 good cars, cell phones, vacations, 2-3 streaming services, flatscreen TV's, trendy clothes, multiple pairs of shoes, and Apple watch, etc. They buy them because it is what other people do and they don't want to appear poor. So when you add all of that up, it is impossible to make ends meet on $80-100k/year in most regions of the country.

Live like you are poorer and you can save/have security. Don't and you have no savings and no safety net, but can still have all the nice things and just roll the dice. Typically people just go into debt when something bad happens (if they haven't already). If they have already gone into debt to try and maintain the aforementioned lifestyle, then they end up going bankrupt in the case of high medical bills or some other big financial hit.

Is it fair to say corporations are the same way? Over leveraging themselves? Attempting to keep up with the microsecond transaction of the stock market?

Maybe I should ask it a different way: How are the bad choices people make different from the bad choices corporations make?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Our American consumer culture and need to have everything is absolutely the reason for our indebtedness and the "paycheck to paycheck" trend in our middle class.

People don't need a nice house, 2-3 good cars, cell phones, vacations, 2-3 streaming services, flatscreen TV's, trendy clothes, multiple pairs of shoes, and Apple watch, etc. They buy them because it is what other people do and they don't want to appear poor. So when you add all of that up, it is impossible to make ends meet on $80-100k/year in most regions of the country.

Live like you are poorer and you can save/have security. Don't and you have no savings and no safety net, but can still have all the nice things and just roll the dice. Typically people just go into debt when something bad happens (if they haven't already). If they have already gone into debt to try and maintain the aforementioned lifestyle, then they end up going bankrupt in the case of high medical bills or some other big financial hit.

Is it fair to say corporations are the same way? Over leveraging themselves? Attempting to keep up with the microsecond transaction of the stock market?

Maybe I should ask it a different way: How are the bad choices people make different from the bad choices corporations make?

"But what about the corporations?" seems like a new variation on "But what about the Joneses?" If I think that some faceless corporation is mismanaging its resources, okay cool, but I don't see why that has anything to do with whether I should mismanage my own resources.

 

[JAA]

Our American consumer culture and need to have everything is absolutely the reason for our indebtedness and the "paycheck to paycheck" trend in our middle class.

People don't need a nice house, 2-3 good cars, cell phones, vacations, 2-3 streaming services, flatscreen TV's, trendy clothes, multiple pairs of shoes, and Apple watch, etc. They buy them because it is what other people do and they don't want to appear poor. So when you add all of that up, it is impossible to make ends meet on $80-100k/year in most regions of the country.

Live like you are poorer and you can save/have security. Don't and you have no savings and no safety net, but can still have all the nice things and just roll the dice. Typically people just go into debt when something bad happens (if they haven't already). If they have already gone into debt to try and maintain the aforementioned lifestyle, then they end up going bankrupt in the case of high medical bills or some other big financial hit.

Is it fair to say corporations are the same way? Over leveraging themselves? Attempting to keep up with the microsecond transaction of the stock market?

Maybe I should ask it a different way: How are the bad choices people make different from the bad choices corporations make?

"But what about the corporations?" seems like a new variation on "But what about the Joneses?" If I think that some faceless corporation is mismanaging its resources, okay cool, but I don't see why that has anything to do with whether I should mismanage my own resources.

I understand the snark. Sure, I get it and yes, I did the 'but what about ...'. You got me, my bad.

Now that I admitted by mistake, can you answer my question(s)?

 

[SoBeDad]

Listening to NPR radio in my office. A husband and wife in MN were receiving Healthcare through pandemic assistance to states, which will expire soon. She needed it because she got breast cancer and needed multiple rounds of chemo. I heard the end of the interview, but I think she has a part-time job without insurance, so "why don't you get a real job with insurance benefits" were some comments she heard. She and her husband are contemplating $1,400 a month for premiums. Loss of health benefits due to the end of federal aid and the increase in unemployment will hurt many people.

 

[Schmeabs]

I have had the fortune in my life to see many sides of this issue.

I grew up raised by a single parent on welfare. Today I have a cushy job and get to travel the world for work. By contrast, my mother and two brothers have never been on an airplane. The latter both work as general labourers in a factory.

As I get older, I get madder about our society. Everything about it is designed to continually funnel wealth to those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.

Housing is a great example. For the top, housing is an investment. At the bottom it is a necessity of life, and if you want to own, you end up buying a house with an inflated price due to demand from others looking for profit not a place to live. Then you end up with a larger mortgage, ultimately given more of your meagre wealth to the banks (owned by those higher up the economic scale).

Cheap food is laced with sugar, don’t get me started on the impact of that. Marketing and consumerism is designed specifically to attack your brain and get you to want MORE! All designed to funnel wealth up the chain.

I have read a lot about our brains, in hopes of understanding my brain and HOW I was able to make different decisions than my family (grew up with 13 cousins, all work dead end jobs within 20 miles of where they grew up)

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

With all due respect your take on housing is terrible. Buying a house is the single best investment you can make. Banks are not out to screw the lower to middle class.

 

[The Duff Man]

I have had the fortune in my life to see many sides of this issue.

I grew up raised by a single parent on welfare. Today I have a cushy job and get to travel the world for work. By contrast, my mother and two brothers have never been on an airplane. The latter both work as general labourers in a factory.

As I get older, I get madder about our society. Everything about it is designed to continually funnel wealth to those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.

Housing is a great example. For the top, housing is an investment. At the bottom it is a necessity of life, and if you want to own, you end up buying a house with an inflated price due to demand from others looking for profit not a place to live. Then you end up with a larger mortgage, ultimately given more of your meagre wealth to the banks (owned by those higher up the economic scale).

Cheap food is laced with sugar, don’t get me started on the impact of that. Marketing and consumerism is designed specifically to attack your brain and get you to want MORE! All designed to funnel wealth up the chain.

I have read a lot about our brains, in hopes of understanding my brain and HOW I was able to make different decisions than my family (grew up with 13 cousins, all work dead end jobs within 20 miles of where they grew up)

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

With all due respect your take on housing is terrible. Buying a house is the single best investment you can make. Banks are not out to screw the lower to middle class.

My take didn’t assert either of the two things you interpreted?

The first one is completely out of left field and not mentioned by me at all?

Banks don’t screw the poorer classes, they just serve as a mechanism to funnel wealth from them to those already more well off. I am not sure how debatable that is but this is the internet after all

 

[Sand]

Healthcare I'm not sure about, but grocery costs are driven primarily by distribution expenses.

I'm sure real estate has some upward pressure, but presumably the increased volume with being in a highly populated area lends itself to downward pressure on food costs to counteract that. That's why I said "similar" and not the same. I'm sure NYC has higher food costs than Ames, Iowa, but it isn't as dramatic as the housing variances.

From this website: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/san-francisco-ca-vs-mobile-al

The cost of living is 55% lower in Mobile, AL than San Francisco, CA.

Housing Costs - 81% lower
Transportation Costs - 37% lower
Food Costs - 23% lower
Entertainment Costs - 25% lower
Healthcare Costs - 21% lower

Housing definitely drives the majority, but all the others are over 20% higher too. if we assume 25% lower (excluding housing), $120,000 * 0.75 = $90,000. That's not insignificant.

Though, to be honest, I'd switch Mobile up for Birmingham or Huntsville. Mobile is a pit. My kid is there now and I hate that he is. I'm hoping he chooses to move soon.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I have had the fortune in my life to see many sides of this issue.

I grew up raised by a single parent on welfare. Today I have a cushy job and get to travel the world for work. By contrast, my mother and two brothers have never been on an airplane. The latter both work as general labourers in a factory.

As I get older, I get madder about our society. Everything about it is designed to continually funnel wealth to those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.

Housing is a great example. For the top, housing is an investment. At the bottom it is a necessity of life, and if you want to own, you end up buying a house with an inflated price due to demand from others looking for profit not a place to live. Then you end up with a larger mortgage, ultimately given more of your meagre wealth to the banks (owned by those higher up the economic scale).

Cheap food is laced with sugar, don’t get me started on the impact of that. Marketing and consumerism is designed specifically to attack your brain and get you to want MORE! All designed to funnel wealth up the chain.

I have read a lot about our brains, in hopes of understanding my brain and HOW I was able to make different decisions than my family (grew up with 13 cousins, all work dead end jobs within 20 miles of where they grew up)

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

You just described my entire extended family. No siblings, but this is the majority of my cousins and second cousins.

 

[Sand]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

The reverse side of this was best said by Charlie Munger - "The world doesn't run on greed, it runs on envy." Fact is that just about every American lives in abundance. It's the comparison to the Joneses that keep us unhappy.

 

[JAA]

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

Just picked this up on Audible, thank you.

 

[Sand]

I have had the fortune in my life to see many sides of this issue.

I grew up raised by a single parent on welfare. Today I have a cushy job and get to travel the world for work. By contrast, my mother and two brothers have never been on an airplane. The latter both work as general labourers in a factory.

As I get older, I get madder about our society. Everything about it is designed to continually funnel wealth to those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.

Housing is a great example. For the top, housing is an investment. At the bottom it is a necessity of life, and if you want to own, you end up buying a house with an inflated price due to demand from others looking for profit not a place to live. Then you end up with a larger mortgage, ultimately given more of your meagre wealth to the banks (owned by those higher up the economic scale).

Cheap food is laced with sugar, don’t get me started on the impact of that. Marketing and consumerism is designed specifically to attack your brain and get you to want MORE! All designed to funnel wealth up the chain.

I have read a lot about our brains, in hopes of understanding my brain and HOW I was able to make different decisions than my family (grew up with 13 cousins, all work dead end jobs within 20 miles of where they grew up)

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

With all due respect your take on housing is terrible. Buying a house is the single best investment you can make. Banks are not out to screw the lower to middle class.

When the world wants you to rent everything and to subscribe to everything you can be just about positive the best plan is to own as much as you can.

 

[Sand]

Listening to NPR radio in my office. A husband and wife in MN were receiving Healthcare through pandemic assistance to states, which will expire soon. She needed it because she got breast cancer and needed multiple rounds of chemo. I heard the end of the interview, but I think she has a part-time job without insurance, so "why don't you get a real job with insurance benefits" were some comments she heard. She and her husband are contemplating $1,400 a month for premiums. Loss of health benefits due to the end of federal aid and the increase in unemployment will hurt many people.

Obamacare should pickup just about 100% of premiums at a low income like this. I have to wonder why this isn't an option.

 

[The Duff Man]

If you are interested in this topic, pick up “Hacking of the American Mind” it is very interesting. We have a lot less free will than we think and those that buck the trend of their conditioning/upbringing are outliers.

Just picked this up on Audible, thank you.

The science part is fairly heavy, I had to go through it a couple times.

Fascinating to learn how our brain deals with reward (dopamine) versus contentment (seratonin).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Our American consumer culture and need to have everything is absolutely the reason for our indebtedness and the "paycheck to paycheck" trend in our middle class.

People don't need a nice house, 2-3 good cars, cell phones, vacations, 2-3 streaming services, flatscreen TV's, trendy clothes, multiple pairs of shoes, and Apple watch, etc. They buy them because it is what other people do and they don't want to appear poor. So when you add all of that up, it is impossible to make ends meet on $80-100k/year in most regions of the country.

Live like you are poorer and you can save/have security. Don't and you have no savings and no safety net, but can still have all the nice things and just roll the dice. Typically people just go into debt when something bad happens (if they haven't already). If they have already gone into debt to try and maintain the aforementioned lifestyle, then they end up going bankrupt in the case of high medical bills or some other big financial hit.

Is it fair to say corporations are the same way? Over leveraging themselves? Attempting to keep up with the microsecond transaction of the stock market?

Maybe I should ask it a different way: How are the bad choices people make different from the bad choices corporations make?

"But what about the corporations?" seems like a new variation on "But what about the Joneses?" If I think that some faceless corporation is mismanaging its resources, okay cool, but I don't see why that has anything to do with whether I should mismanage my own resources.

I understand the snark. Sure, I get it and yes, I did the 'but what about ...'. You got me, my bad.

Now that I admitted by mistake, can you answer my question(s)?

Sure. It's bad when private businesses mismanage their enterprise, in part because doing so has negative effects on their employees.

That said, I care about the average business failure the same way I care about the average personal bankruptcy: I don't. It doesn't matter much to me how I'm doing relative to others. I just know in general terms where I expected to be at various points in my life, and all I really care about is whether I'm hitting those mile markers or not. I guess its sort of interesting to know that we've saved far more retirement than most people my age, but I'm just aghast at everybody else's lack of savings, not particularly proud of my own. We're on pace, but that's it, and I'm now at the point where there's realistically nothing I can do to "catch up" if the market continues to lag -- there is no amount of income I can possibly set aside that can compensate for a flat market now that I'm in my 50s. My retirement date is a little bit outside of my own control, but I assume it's like that for nearly everybody eventually.

 

[hagmania]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

The reverse side of this was best said by Charlie Munger - "The world doesn't run on greed, it runs on envy." Fact is that just about every American lives in abundance. It's the comparison to the Joneses that keep us unhappy.

I don't disagree with this in some regards. I do believe it's OK for anybody in America to be able to afford a cell phone or a car.

And I get the tone of this conversation was not originally about the above scenarios. It was about the upper 25% trying for private schools. I have to say I think it's pretty admirable to try and do better for your kids, but it may not be the wisest decision.

 

[Terminalxylem]

If white collar professional types can't afford housing in those cities, it's hard to imagine how retail/maintenance/hospitality/etc. people get by.

Not sure, so I'm asking the house:

Do any major metro areas (to include NYC, Boston, Miami, SF, LA, Honolulu, etc.) NOT have Section 8 housing?

...

Generally, the kinds of jobs you're talking about are not done by solo household supporters in expensive cities. It's often supplemental income to a household, or part of a multiple-working-adults household. If a person really is trying to run an entire household** on a single bottom-10% income in an expensive city ... they're getting housing assistance, living in public housing, or something along those lines.

** Call it an average of "a family of four" -- could be parents and two kids, a single parent and three kids, a couple and two elderly relatives, etc.

Honolulu has public, low income homes, as well as units designated for people of Native Hawaiian ancestry. But multigenerational housing (with multiple earners) is also common, as a way to make ends meet, and care for the elderly.

My wife, far from a spendthrift, lived with her parents until she was 40, despite making a good living. Getting married was the impetus for moving out.

 

[MAC_32]

If we're going to rant about questionable spending habits, I'd start with the astronomical prices so-called middle/lower class pays for live sports and entertainment. Insane.

Sheer math would suggest those venues aren't being sold out to the top 1%. And yet they are. Consistently.

I've attended 2 NFL games and 0 other pro events in the last 2 years almost exclusively due to the cost. Both games were gifts to my son (a Steelers fan) and we sat in the upper deck for both games and I shopped the heck out of them.

I cannot fathom dropping $1,000 for my family of 4 to go to a single game.

Me neither, but my wife made a very convincing argument as we emerged out of covid. Our kids were 5, 8, and 11 (now 7, 10, and 13) - they've missed essentially a year and a half and not long from now they aren't going to do much stuff with us anyway. Let's give them the option of joining us for vacations as they get older and take them to these experiences now. At that time our un-athletic 11 year old could care less about sports and not that we wanted to force him into it, but that is what mom and I do for fun...and now he does too. He has a google doc that he uses to track all local professional teams, most major colleges, and even some high school. All because we shelled out for a basketball game about this time 2 years ago.

 

[-OZ-]

Nashville is on the rise in terms of expense. I moved to Nashville after graduating college because I wanted a better opportunity than middle-of-nowhere Kentucky.

No one is hiring analysts in the western coalfields of my home state.

Glad I didn't just accept my spot and work in a factory my whole life, even if things are quite a bit higher on the expense side.

Definitely, Nashville is one of the most attractive cities. Still, CoL isn’t that outlandish if you’re willing to drive or can work remotely part time.

 

[-OZ-]

If we're going to rant about questionable spending habits, I'd start with the astronomical prices so-called middle/lower class pays for live sports and entertainment. Insane.

Sheer math would suggest those venues aren't being sold out to the top 1%. And yet they are. Consistently.

I've attended 2 NFL games and 0 other pro events in the last 2 years almost exclusively due to the cost. Both games were gifts to my son (a Steelers fan) and we sat in the upper deck for both games and I shopped the heck out of them.

I cannot fathom dropping $1,000 for my family of 4 to go to a single game.

just 4 ?
There’s a reason our vacations are (almost) all drivable and we rent homes. It’s the only way we’d be able to do vacations.
major pro sporting events or Disney with the family are entirely out of the question (we don’t like most amusement parks anyway).

 

[TripItUp]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

 

[-OZ-]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

it’s completely fine to want things. Even luxury at times. But as a wise woman once said, you (probably) can afford anything (within reason), just not everything. People make choices, choices have consequences.

For the most part, people really want meaning and belonging. Too many try to get those with money (they don’t have).

 

[MAC_32]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

it’s completely fine to want things. Even luxury at times. But as a wise woman once said, you (probably) can afford anything (within reason), just not everything. People make choices, choices have consequences.

For the most part, people really want meaning and belonging. Too many try to get those with money (they don’t have).

I think the average american just always wants more. Lower, middle, upper don't matter - they just want more. My principled and pragmatic sides constantly come into conflict when I try to expound upon it because at its core there isn't anything necessarily wrong with that...the impact that's having on our current world though...

 

[fruity pebbles]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

it’s completely fine to want things. Even luxury at times. But as a wise woman once said, you (probably) can afford anything (within reason), just not everything. People make choices, choices have consequences.

For the most part, people really want meaning and belonging. Too many try to get those with money (they don’t have).

Funny you say that. I just had that exact conversation with my twelve year old. She said my car was old and ugly. We just got back from a week in Hawaii. My response was, would you rather drive around in a brand new car or go to Hawaii? Hawaii… I thought so, so shut the hell up.

 

[-OZ-]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

it’s completely fine to want things. Even luxury at times. But as a wise woman once said, you (probably) can afford anything (within reason), just not everything. People make choices, choices have consequences.

For the most part, people really want meaning and belonging. Too many try to get those with money (they don’t have).

I think the average american just always wants more. Lower, middle, upper don't matter - they just want more. My principled and pragmatic sides constantly come into conflict when I try to expound upon it because at its core there isn't anything necessarily wrong with that...the impact that's having on our current world though...

That’s fair.
We just dumped almost 1/4 of our annual income into our bathroom. Totally worth it and we’ll be here another decade.
I rarely get car envy but one of the guys I was cycling with tonight showed me his Rivian R1T. That truck is sweet- costs at least $75k, probably more like $90k now. I won’t buy it but there was a moment of envy. Meanwhile I’m driving my 07 highlander.

But really, the moments when we feel best are cycling together, volunteering at a local race, leading a youth group, or whatever your variation of those activities may be. None of those cost much (except the bike but that lasts a long time).

 

[DA RAIDERS]

So one of my best friends runs one of the 10 largest mortgage lenders in the country.

He said it is astonishing how poorly the middle class manages their finances...living paycheck to paycheck on six figure househould incomes.

So then I checked the statistics and he was right....what int he hell is this country doing? Incredible.

People have been tricked into thinking they need to buy the latest TV/Car/houses/travel/lifestyle/Computer

Today EVERY child over 5 has their own phone.

It’s crazy.

My son did not get his first phone till he was in middle school while all his friends had phones in 1st grade. We did not waiver.

I hate the phones......they have destroyed our social fabric and the ability to communicate effectively. It’s a plague.

How'd you decide it was OK in middle school?

He was a lot more mature by then and was starting to hang out with friends a lot more. Thats how they communicate primarily these days, texts and chat. He was asking for a phone since 3rd grade and we told him no for 3 years (despite the vast majority of kids having them) and said when you start middle school, if you prove you are responsible with things like your school work and doing your chores around the house you will earn the privilege of getting 1K plus phone.

Those things are freaking expensive!

Yeah, I don’t have kids, but see my friends struggle when to get them phones. Middle school seems about the latest they hold out. Invariably, the kid is glued to the screen as soon as they get the chance.

I wonder how much of a pariah a phoneless kid would be?

You‘ve met my kid. I think she’s pretty cognizant and interacts well with others.

We got her a mini iPad in NYC for her 10th bday. It was a big deal. We were/are super anti tech for kids in general. Doing it in NYC, in the cool Apple Store, that is underground made it more memorable. I believe the phone came on her 12th bday, so just before 7th grade. . No socials for a year. Instagram first. And then snap chat on her 14th bday during Covid. I probably would have held out longer on this one, but it’s the only way they communicate. So during Covid it was more important that she be able to talk to her friends. And it was in mammoth, in July, with 3 of her friends. Again, we made a big deal out it. I feel that if we had not of allowed snap chat it would have seriously hurt her socially, because of Covid.

Now she’s 16 and has removed the parental restrictions from her phone, right in front of me. She’s a good kid, that tells us everything. So far so good.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

So one of my best friends runs one of the 10 largest mortgage lenders in the country.

He said it is astonishing how poorly the middle class manages their finances...living paycheck to paycheck on six figure househould incomes.

So then I checked the statistics and he was right....what int he hell is this country doing? Incredible.

I know the owner of cash call mortgage. It’s as predatory a business as anything out there. Frightening. And just because they can f people over for profit doesn’t make it right. Simply to put someone into a mortgage that they really can’t afford. I have no clue how he sleeps at night.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

If white collar professional types can't afford housing in those cities, it's hard to imagine how retail/maintenance/hospitality/etc. people get by.

Not sure, so I'm asking the house:

Do any major metro areas (to include NYC, Boston, Miami, SF, LA, Honolulu, etc.) NOT have Section 8 housing?

...

Generally, the kinds of jobs you're talking about are not done by solo household supporters in expensive cities. It's often supplemental income to a household, or part of a multiple-working-adults household. If a person really is trying to run an entire household** on a single bottom-10% income in an expensive city ... they're getting housing assistance, living in public housing, or something along those lines.

** Call it an average of "a family of four" -- could be parents and two kids, a single parent and three kids, a couple and two elderly relatives, etc.

Honolulu has public, low income homes, as well as units designated for people of Native Hawaiian ancestry. But multigenerational housing (with multiple earners) is also common, as a way to make ends meet, and care for the elderly.

My wife, far from a spendthrift, lived with her parents until she was 40, despite making a good living. Getting married was the impetus for moving out.

I’m encouraging my daughter to live with us as long as she/we still like it. Paying bills sucks.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

I’m not responding to anything other than your statement about being involved with section 8 housing….

So what’s the scam for the owners of these properties? Do they rent houses for a guaranteed amount from the state/county? Tax breaks?

I’m asking because this house up the street from mine is always being used for section 8. Usually every two years they have to remove the tenants and renovate the entire place.

Who pays for the electricity and upkeep on these places? The owners? Why do they need such a massive and luxurious house?

What’s the logic behind all that?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

I’m not responding to anything other than your statement about being involved with section 8 housing….

So what’s the scam for the owners of these properties? Do they rent houses for a guaranteed amount from the state/county? Tax breaks?

I’m asking because this house up the street from mine is always being used for section 8. Usually every two years they have to remove the tenants and renovate the entire place.

Who pays for the electricity and upkeep on these places? The owners? Why do they need such a massive and luxurious house?

What’s the logic behind all that?

There’s no scam and honestly unless your property is in such a bad neighborhood where no one that could afford to pay out of pocket would want to live there, it’s not worth taking on Section 8 tenants.
The state government pays a percentage of the rent based on what they determine the tenants can afford - in my experience the tenants don’t even pay their share (which is a good way to get them out when you want at least).

As far as utilities - that’s on the tenant - but any repairs/upkeep are the owner’s responsibility- even in our case where it was replacing broken windows because the tenant threw a pan through it. If you’re taking money from the government- they’ll send some one out a few times a year and a checklist will be issued of repairs that must be made or they’ll stop paying.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Some people in this thread seem like they really don't understand what it is to be human.

You could live life like a miser and "make the best of it" I guess if that's your bag. People want to feel things, they want to live and live abundantly. When you tell people they shouldn't, I just shake my head.

it’s completely fine to want things. Even luxury at times. But as a wise woman once said, you (probably) can afford anything (within reason), just not everything. People make choices, choices have consequences.

For the most part, people really want meaning and belonging. Too many try to get those with money (they don’t have).

Funny you say that. I just had that exact conversation with my twelve year old. She said my car was old and ugly. We just got back from a week in Hawaii. My response was, would you rather drive around in a brand new car or go to Hawaii? Hawaii… I thought so, so shut the hell up.

After her 10 year old Prius had a warranty-covered maintenance issue, my wife suddenly started talking about how nice modern cars are…especially Teslas. I tried to talk her down by mentioning early retirement plans, and how many trips to Japan a $40K car would offset. No brainer decision to skimp on the car imo.

 

[hagmania]

I don't see the difference when you talk about taking nice trips instead of buying a new car.

 

[Keerock]

If we're going to rant about questionable spending habits, I'd start with the astronomical prices so-called middle/lower class pays for live sports and entertainment. Insane.

Sheer math would suggest those venues aren't being sold out to the top 1%. And yet they are. Consistently.

I've attended 2 NFL games and 0 other pro events in the last 2 years almost exclusively due to the cost. Both games were gifts to my son (a Steelers fan) and we sat in the upper deck for both games and I shopped the heck out of them.

I cannot fathom dropping $1,000 for my family of 4 to go to a single game.

Me neither, but my wife made a very convincing argument as we emerged out of covid. Our kids were 5, 8, and 11 (now 7, 10, and 13) - they've missed essentially a year and a half and not long from now they aren't going to do much stuff with us anyway. Let's give them the option of joining us for vacations as they get older and take them to these experiences now. At that time our un-athletic 11 year old could care less about sports and not that we wanted to force him into it, but that is what mom and I do for fun...and now he does too. He has a google doc that he uses to track all local professional teams, most major colleges, and even some high school. All because we shelled out for a basketball game about this time 2 years ago.

How much less?

 

[-OZ-]

I don't see the difference when you talk about taking nice trips instead of buying a new car.

Not sure what you mean. The point is to make your choices based on what you value. If you like nice cars, go for it.

 

[hagmania]

I don't see the difference when you talk about taking nice trips instead of buying a new car.

Not sure what you mean. The point is to make your choices based on what you value. If you like nice cars, go for it.

Hell yeah.

I'm on the trips side of the ledger.

 

[The Z Machine]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

I’m not responding to anything other than your statement about being involved with section 8 housing….

So what’s the scam for the owners of these properties? Do they rent houses for a guaranteed amount from the state/county? Tax breaks?

I’m asking because this house up the street from mine is always being used for section 8. Usually every two years they have to remove the tenants and renovate the entire place.

Who pays for the electricity and upkeep on these places? The owners? Why do they need such a massive and luxurious house?

What’s the logic behind all that?

I think you're mistaken. That's house has 8 bedrooms, not 8 sections.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

I’m not responding to anything other than your statement about being involved with section 8 housing….

So what’s the scam for the owners of these properties? Do they rent houses for a guaranteed amount from the state/county? Tax breaks?

I’m asking because this house up the street from mine is always being used for section 8. Usually every two years they have to remove the tenants and renovate the entire place.

Who pays for the electricity and upkeep on these places? The owners? Why do they need such a massive and luxurious house?

What’s the logic behind all that?

There’s no scam and honestly unless your property is in such a bad neighborhood where no one that could afford to pay out of pocket would want to live there, it’s not worth taking on Section 8 tenants.
The state government pays a percentage of the rent based on what they determine the tenants can afford - in my experience the tenants don’t even pay their share (which is a good way to get them out when you want at least).

As far as utilities - that’s on the tenant - but any repairs/upkeep are the owner’s responsibility- even in our case where it was replacing broken windows because the tenant threw a pan through it. If you’re taking money from the government- they’ll send some one out a few times a year and a checklist will be issued of repairs that must be made or they’ll stop paying.

They must be doing it to operate at a loss or something. Makes no sense. Happens a lot around here in Montgomery County MD.

I'm genuinely kind of baffled at how the person who takes my drink order or the person who replaces my towels gets by in a major city.

Because most major cities have some really terrible areas where the rent is much cheaper (for a reason).

In SF there is actually some prime real estate given to section 8.

Ok - I’ve been involved in Section 8 housing for the last 17 years and that’s not the case generally.

That didn’t really respond to my response anyway. Do you disagree that most cities have bad areas where the lower income people can afford to live? That’s what I said.

Guess you wanted to show how good the poor have it?

I’m not responding to anything other than your statement about being involved with section 8 housing….

So what’s the scam for the owners of these properties? Do they rent houses for a guaranteed amount from the state/county? Tax breaks?

I’m asking because this house up the street from mine is always being used for section 8. Usually every two years they have to remove the tenants and renovate the entire place.

Who pays for the electricity and upkeep on these places? The owners? Why do they need such a massive and luxurious house?

What’s the logic behind all that?

I think you're mistaken. That's house has 8 bedrooms, not 8 sections.

One it time it said it had 14 bedrooms. Not sure what was up with that.

Must be nice:
- living in a +million dollar house for free
- Not working
- forcing traffic backups because his kids are never ready for the bus that waits upwards of 10 minutes for them to come out
-renting out additional rooms to your buddy who also brings in his dirt bikes
-riding loud *** dirt bikes up and down the street.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

They must be doing it to operate at a loss or something. Makes no sense. Happens a lot around here in Montgomery County MD.

Honestly it makes no sense for that house to be Section 8 for any party - the government offers "market value" rent. Not sure why it would shell out money like that. Something doesn't line-up there. I have no experience with Section 8 in an area like that - mine is in a depressed area.

ETA: Eventually we replaced Section 8 tenants with a Mexican family moving in to both units and paying their own rent out of pocket. They also upkeep the place on their own - take pride in it. I would not go back to Section8 tenants - it was mostly a disaster. I have a ton of funny/sad stories about some of our tenants in the past.

 

[Stoneworker]

I don't see the difference when you talk about taking nice trips instead of buying a new car.

Not sure what you mean. The point is to make your choices based on what you value. If you like nice cars, go for it.

I took the moral of your story to be that one of the choices was "No." Which is where the value lies IMO.

 

[The Z Machine]

What's the point of an English major when you can make more scrilla as an electrician.

You can still write user manuals if your knees are shot...

 

[Don't Toews Me]

back to the original topic

There are some real indicators out there, here are a few:

1) Cost to insure US treasury debt now more expensive than in 2008

2) Home Price to Household income ratio now worse than it was in 2008

#1 is mostly due to the debt ceiling and concerns regarding it. That issue is a bit too political to discuss in depth here. The short-term Treasury market is also a bit wonky (with a lot of it likely due to the previously mentioned issue).

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I'm now at the point where there's realistically nothing I can do to "catch up" if the market continues to lag -- there is no amount of income I can possibly set aside that can compensate for a flat market now that I'm in my 50s. My retirement date is a little bit outside of my own control, but I assume it's like that for nearly everybody eventually.

Very well said.

As a "rule follower" in general, my wife and I both having worked for 30+ years, both diligently saving in 401K and earning social security credits every year without missing a paycheck; the dependence on the market and the audacity of those who would threaten the social security contract are my two biggest concerns. Frankly if others didn't "follow the rules", that's not my concern. Take personal responsibility. When people who didn't follow the rules, sacrifice, get that education/vocational training/military career etc., when they want to blame someone other than themselves for their lot in life? I'm not sympathetic to that, and I tend to be sympathetic to a lot.

 

[Don't Toews Me]

First Republic Bank Is a Problem With No Easy Solution

It would be hard to find a buyer or create another rescue plan. A regulatory seizure would bring its own set of problems.

www.wsj.com

First Republic's dramatic slide continues, stock falls 20% as bank looks for rescue deal

This week's drop for First Republic comes after the San Francisco-based lender said it lost roughly 40% of its deposits in the first quarter.

www.cnbc.com

The steep decline in deposits came despite a group of 11 larger banks infusing $30 billion of deposits into First Republic in an attempt to instill confidence and prevent bank runs from spreading. Advisors to First Republic are trying to convince at least a few of those banks to provide further support by buying some of First Republic’s assets at above-market rates, CNBC has learned.

Those purchases would result in losses for the other banks, but First Republic’s advisors are trying to sell the banks on the idea that letting First Republic fail would be even more expensive if it led to still higher regulatory costs and fees.

If First Republic is successful in selling off some of its assets, it will then look to raise equity, according to sources, which would dilute current shareholders.

Sources told CNBC’s David Faber on Wednesday that government officials are currently unwilling to intervene in the First Republic rescue process.

 

[General Malaise]

For some reason, I always forget about Social Security - I just logged into the SS website and for a gov agency, it's pretty slick. If I delay my retirement to 70 (and with 5 kids, I'm probably never retiring) the amount per month jumps quite a bit from 67. It's more than I thought I'd be getting per month for sure. Hot damn!

 

[JAA]

Our American consumer culture and need to have everything is absolutely the reason for our indebtedness and the "paycheck to paycheck" trend in our middle class.

People don't need a nice house, 2-3 good cars, cell phones, vacations, 2-3 streaming services, flatscreen TV's, trendy clothes, multiple pairs of shoes, and Apple watch, etc. They buy them because it is what other people do and they don't want to appear poor. So when you add all of that up, it is impossible to make ends meet on $80-100k/year in most regions of the country.

Live like you are poorer and you can save/have security. Don't and you have no savings and no safety net, but can still have all the nice things and just roll the dice. Typically people just go into debt when something bad happens (if they haven't already). If they have already gone into debt to try and maintain the aforementioned lifestyle, then they end up going bankrupt in the case of high medical bills or some other big financial hit.

Is it fair to say corporations are the same way? Over leveraging themselves? Attempting to keep up with the microsecond transaction of the stock market?

Maybe I should ask it a different way: How are the bad choices people make different from the bad choices corporations make?

"But what about the corporations?" seems like a new variation on "But what about the Joneses?" If I think that some faceless corporation is mismanaging its resources, okay cool, but I don't see why that has anything to do with whether I should mismanage my own resources.

I understand the snark. Sure, I get it and yes, I did the 'but what about ...'. You got me, my bad.

Now that I admitted by mistake, can you answer my question(s)?

Sure. It's bad when private businesses mismanage their enterprise, in part because doing so has negative effects on their employees.

That said, I care about the average business failure the same way I care about the average personal bankruptcy: I don't. It doesn't matter much to me how I'm doing relative to others. I just know in general terms where I expected to be at various points in my life, and all I really care about is whether I'm hitting those mile markers or not. I guess its sort of interesting to know that we've saved far more retirement than most people my age, but I'm just aghast at everybody else's lack of savings, not particularly proud of my own. We're on pace, but that's it, and I'm now at the point where there's realistically nothing I can do to "catch up" if the market continues to lag -- there is no amount of income I can possibly set aside that can compensate for a flat market now that I'm in my 50s. My retirement date is a little bit outside of my own control, but I assume it's like that for nearly everybody eventually.

I believe corporations should be help to the same, if not higher, fiscal expectations as citizens. I believe if we required this, so much of these problems would be solved.

However, we are in an economy of high risk/high reward and any level of prudence is frowned upon.

 

[Keerock]

For some reason, I always forget about Social Security - I just logged into the SS website and for a gov agency, it's pretty slick. If I delay my retirement to 70 (and with 5 kids, I'm probably never retiring) the amount per month jumps quite a bit from 67. It's more than I thought I'd be getting per month for sure. Hot damn!

Unless we turn into France

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For some reason, I always forget about Social Security - I just logged into the SS website and for a gov agency, it's pretty slick. If I delay my retirement to 70 (and with 5 kids, I'm probably never retiring) the amount per month jumps quite a bit from 67. It's more than I thought I'd be getting per month for sure. Hot damn!

Pardon? They had to send me a password by old-fashioned paper mail for me to access their website. That wasn't 10 years ago -- it was last month.