Vilma (1 Viewer)

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Rhodes is the Rodney Harrison of this defense. He should be a top-10 fantasy DB this year.

 

[cr8f]

Admirable own up Rovers but this debate still has time to be decided. As a Vilma owner I was actually a little upset at his stat line ... which goes to show how spoiled I've become.

Bullocks is the man so far this year as many expected.

 

[Rovers]

With the continued discussion on Vilma, looking back I thought this was an interesting read.

Yesterday the Jets ran very little 4-3. Bryan Thomas gets most of the blitz calls, but has ZERO pass rush moves. Yes, he's fast, but only in a straight line. That makes him very easy to block. He doesn't use his hands worth a darn to avoid getting locked up, and rarely gets any QB pressures. Only a jumpy QB like Harrington get's happy feet when he gets close. QB's with pocket presence aren't rattled.

I'll say it again.... in the nickel, the Jets should get Vilma on the outside and turn him loose. He can back off and cover better than Thomas, and he's a better pass rusher. Put Vilma on the outside, and show a blitz from Rhodes, whether it's a fake or called.... in obvious passing situations, and I still think it would yield results. Now, in the nickel, Vilma is lost. he's getting taken out by guards and tackles on a regular basis.

For those who want to say Vilma should never be moved to the outside.... there was another LB in NY some time ago that had a nice career getting moved around like that, and I think Vilma should be used in the same way.

In the meantime.... Vilma is outside the top ten, and I suspect will remain there now, after watching 6 regular season games.

 

[Jene Bramel]

For the sake of keeping the discussion in one place, I'm going to copy my reply earlier today to a request asking for a Vilma update in the Week 7 Coaches Corner thread today.

Is Jonathan Vilma done as a top IDP player? I have him and am really thinking of trading him at this point. I think I would be happy to get an order of day old unsalted fries from McDonalds for him and his bloated contract that are currently taking up room on my dynasty roster.

Yes and no.I harp on basic defensive concepts a lot, but it's really a situation where scheme is critical. Vilma is the same talent he was last year -- there's no injury or major attitude issue involved in his decline. I'll be the first to admit, while I thought there'd be some decline in Vilma's stats, I didn't think there'd be this much. There are three scheme-related issues here (two of which weren't evident to me until after the Patriot game in Week 2).First, the Jets NTs don't draw double teams and allow an interior OL a running start at Vilma. Many of us have been harping on that since Mangini was hired. But, while that's an issue, it's really not enough to seriously hinder Vilma's production. Every ILB (4-3 and 3-4) has to fend off blocks from interior lineman at times. Some do it better than others, Vilma did it last year well enough.Second, Vilma isn't comfortable in the defensive scheme. This also wouldn't be too big a deal in isolation. But, coupled with the more frequent blocks he faces, shooting the wrong gap or making incorrect reads on run fits adds up quickly. This one will get better.Thirdly, and probably most importantly, Vilma is not aligned in the best tackling position in this defense right now. It's Eric Barton who's lining up at LILB the great majority of the time, while Vilma is aligned to the right side of the defense and, more or less, the weak side linebacker. The first two issues are important, but I think the alignment is killing Vilma's value more than anything else.What's Vilma's future?Hard to say. Barton's under contract through 2008 but his salary triples (1M to 3M) next year. Barton has been the best run defender the Jets have this season, though, and that salary isn't completely nutty so he probably sticks around. The scheme certainly isn't changing, so, as long as Barton is around, it looks unlikely that Vilma's role in the defense changes. Despite some suggestion that he could do well as an OLB in a 3-4 defense, there's really no way he can succeed in that role. By scheme, on the weak side of this hybrid front defense, he's essentially an OLB already, especially when the same side end (Thomas or Hobson) aligns on the line of scrimmage. I haven't seen the Jets play the past two weeks to see where Vilma aligns in the 4-3 look, but it wouldn't shock me to learn he sets up as a Will backer.The upside is that Vilma is a very, very good LB. He, like DQJax in Cleveland, has the raw ability to make the scheme limitation work and have LB2 upside if issues one and two are rectified. He's already on pace for close to 85 solo tackles -- that's territory guys like Larry Foote, Randall Godfrey, and other RILBs don't touch. Give him some freedom to roam and a better understanding of the defense and those numbers are sustainable even when the Jets defense gets better and provides fewer opportunities. I wouldn't write him off completely and I wouldn't move him in dynasty leagues. Those fries sound good, though.

And Rovers, you know I love you brother, but I sure hope you're not going to compare Vilma's skill set and upside as a 3-4 OLB to Lawrence Taylor. Tell me I'm missing another "LB in NY some time ago".

 

[Rovers]

For the sake of keeping the discussion in one place, I'm going to copy my reply earlier today to a request asking for a Vilma update in the Week 7 Coaches Corner thread today.

Is Jonathan Vilma done as a top IDP player? I have him and am really thinking of trading him at this point. I think I would be happy to get an order of day old unsalted fries from McDonalds for him and his bloated contract that are currently taking up room on my dynasty roster.

Yes and no.I harp on basic defensive concepts a lot, but it's really a situation where scheme is critical. Vilma is the same talent he was last year -- there's no injury or major attitude issue involved in his decline. I'll be the first to admit, while I thought there'd be some decline in Vilma's stats, I didn't think there'd be this much. There are three scheme-related issues here (two of which weren't evident to me until after the Patriot game in Week 2).First, the Jets NTs don't draw double teams and allow an interior OL a running start at Vilma. Many of us have been harping on that since Mangini was hired. But, while that's an issue, it's really not enough to seriously hinder Vilma's production. Every ILB (4-3 and 3-4) has to fend off blocks from interior lineman at times. Some do it better than others, Vilma did it last year well enough.Second, Vilma isn't comfortable in the defensive scheme. This also wouldn't be too big a deal in isolation. But, coupled with the more frequent blocks he faces, shooting the wrong gap or making incorrect reads on run fits adds up quickly. This one will get better.Thirdly, and probably most importantly, Vilma is not aligned in the best tackling position in this defense right now. It's Eric Barton who's lining up at LILB the great majority of the time, while Vilma is aligned to the right side of the defense and, more or less, the weak side linebacker. The first two issues are important, but I think the alignment is killing Vilma's value more than anything else.What's Vilma's future?Hard to say. Barton's under contract through 2008 but his salary triples (1M to 3M) next year. Barton has been the best run defender the Jets have this season, though, and that salary isn't completely nutty so he probably sticks around. The scheme certainly isn't changing, so, as long as Barton is around, it looks unlikely that Vilma's role in the defense changes. Despite some suggestion that he could do well as an OLB in a 3-4 defense, there's really no way he can succeed in that role. By scheme, on the weak side of this hybrid front defense, he's essentially an OLB already, especially when the same side end (Thomas or Hobson) aligns on the line of scrimmage. I haven't seen the Jets play the past two weeks to see where Vilma aligns in the 4-3 look, but it wouldn't shock me to learn he sets up as a Will backer.The upside is that Vilma is a very, very good LB. He, like DQJax in Cleveland, has the raw ability to make the scheme limitation work and have LB2 upside if issues one and two are rectified. He's already on pace for close to 85 solo tackles -- that's territory guys like Larry Foote, Randall Godfrey, and other RILBs don't touch. Give him some freedom to roam and a better understanding of the defense and those numbers are sustainable even when the Jets defense gets better and provides fewer opportunities. I wouldn't write him off completely and I wouldn't move him in dynasty leagues. Those fries sound good, though.

And Rovers, you know I love you brother, but I sure hope you're not going to compare Vilma's skill set and upside as a 3-4 OLB to Lawrence Taylor. Tell me I'm missing another "LB in NY some time ago".

LMAO! No, not the skill set... there was only one LT, like there was one DB in Chicago.... the single two best LB's to ever play the game.... sorry, Ray-Ray, but, as I've said before, Vilma's speed is being wasted at ILB. Blitzing from OLB would make him the best pass rushing threat on the team. He's getting caught up in traffic, and his best skill, his speed, is being wasted. I'm not saying line him up at OLB all the time, just move him around, especially in passing situations. He's best as a playmaker, really. The mention of LT was in a strategic vane, not as far as any talent comparison. I want him put in a position to be a game changer. At ILB, he is far, far from being able to do that now. Mangini is supposed to be creative.... doing something with a largely ineffective Vilma would be a good idea, and it was something I wanted to see very early on..... I saw how the Jet's best D playmaker was all but taken out of that role in this scheme even before the first preseason game.Oh, and the next person that tells me preseason games don't mean anything.... will.... I'll be nice... get a link to this thread. I bumped this thread after reading the Vilma question and your reply in the pinned thread.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I wouldn't have given the Jets any chance to start the year 3-3. Mangini seems to be doing something right there.

 

[Jene Bramel]

And Rovers, you know I love you brother, but I sure hope you're not going to compare Vilma's skill set and upside as a 3-4 OLB to Lawrence Taylor. Tell me I'm missing another "LB in NY some time ago".

LMAO! No, not the skill set... there was only one LT, like there was one DB in Chicago.... the single two best LB's to ever play the game.... sorry, Ray-Ray, but, as I've said before, Vilma's speed is being wasted at ILB. Blitzing from OLB would make him the best pass rushing threat on the team. He's getting caught up in traffic, and his best skill, his speed, is being wasted. I'm not saying line him up at OLB all the time, just move him around, especially in passing situations. He's best as a playmaker, really. The mention of LT was in a strategic vane, not as far as any talent comparison. I want him put in a position to be a game changer. At ILB, he is far, far from being able to do that now. Mangini is supposed to be creative.... doing something with a largely ineffective Vilma would be a good idea, and it was something I wanted to see very early on..... I saw how the Jet's best D playmaker was all but taken out of that role in this scheme even before the first preseason game.Oh, and the next person that tells me preseason games don't mean anything.... will.... I'll be nice... get a link to this thread. I bumped this thread after reading the Vilma question and your reply in the pinned thread.

Ahhh, I thought for a minute you'd flipped your lid. I'd like to see Vilma put in a position to make more plays, too. A couple extra points then I'll stop harassing you. First, there's nothing wrong with having a sudden, quick to pursue ILB/MLB. That's becoming all the rage. More and more "undersized" MLB whose speed is a primary asset -- Witherspoon, Ryans, Thurman, Thomas, etc. Even the bigger MLB (Urlacher, Lewis, Hayes, prospects like Brooks) are expected to be speedy. The plugger MLB days are all but over and the Jeremiah Trotters of the world are soon to go the way of the dinosaur.Second, ILBs in the hybrid front scheme are very often used as a big play threat -- it's really a LB driven scheme. Tedy Bruschi had seasons of 4-5 sacks, a couple INTs and multiple passes defended in NE's heyday. Vilma can do the same. Besides, the RILB is pretty close to an WLB/OLB role when the 3-4 "OLB" align on the LOS. I'd be surprised if Vilma could reliably beat TE and OT in pass rush. Speed isn't enough. He's more likely to be effective on delayed blitzes up the middle or blitzes from an overloaded formation. I think those things are coming as the Jets grow into the scheme.

 

[Rovers]

I wouldn't have given the Jets any chance to start the year 3-3. Mangini seems to be doing something right there.

Aaron.... I wish you would post at my Jets board.... these idiots are all whining about ugly wins! Reminds me of that Sienfeld episode.... where the starving homeless guy goes after Elaine because she was only donating the bottoms of freshly baked muffins to the homeless. Food wasn't good enough.... even good food.... he wanted respect! He wanted whole muffins! These Jets fans want pretty wins. Silly, but many of them are youngsters. I thought the Jets would be respectable... 6, maybe 7 wins. What has surprised me is that the defense has been worse than expected, and the offense better. The offense can be explained by a healthy Pennington. The D suffered a big hit when Pouha went down for the season. Even as a second year guy, he was the Jets best hope at having a decent NT this year. The 3-4 is a very weak D against the run without a pier to tie onto at the NT spot. Mangini, Schottenhoemer and Sutton (despite his age) are all rookies. As any rookie will do, they are making some mistakes. The good ones learn and improve, and that's what I see with the Jets CS. Progress, it's all about progress this year.

 

[Badm]

I was watching the game on Sunday and maybe I was drunk, but it seemed like Vilma was NOT in the game when the Jets went into Nickel coverage. Is this true?? The guy no matter what position is a tackling machine.?????

 

[Reaper]

Aaron.... I wish you would post at my Jets board.... these idiots are all whining about ugly wins!

:HIGHJACK: Rovers... As I age and approach 40 I'm finding that out about the whole innernet thing... Years ago we would come to Gangreen or even FBG and have a lot in common with posters and talk about sports from our perspective, then as the years go on you're like WTF???? WTF are these people saying???? And then you realize - WAIT a minute, these kids are half my age or worse. They never saw Montana and/or Marino. They didn't live through and experience the REAL bad years of being a Jets fan, heck or even being a Yankee fan, The Yankees were pretty lousy for much of the 80's to early 90's!!! There's no appreciation for such things.Plus the fact that, the younger generation now is a bunch of whiny brats with no patience, The MTV generation?Carry on.

 

[Rovers]

And Rovers, you know I love you brother, but I sure hope you're not going to compare Vilma's skill set and upside as a 3-4 OLB to Lawrence Taylor. Tell me I'm missing another "LB in NY some time ago".

LMAO! No, not the skill set... there was only one LT, like there was one DB in Chicago.... the single two best LB's to ever play the game.... sorry, Ray-Ray, but, as I've said before, Vilma's speed is being wasted at ILB. Blitzing from OLB would make him the best pass rushing threat on the team. He's getting caught up in traffic, and his best skill, his speed, is being wasted. I'm not saying line him up at OLB all the time, just move him around, especially in passing situations. He's best as a playmaker, really. The mention of LT was in a strategic vane, not as far as any talent comparison. I want him put in a position to be a game changer. At ILB, he is far, far from being able to do that now. Mangini is supposed to be creative.... doing something with a largely ineffective Vilma would be a good idea, and it was something I wanted to see very early on..... I saw how the Jet's best D playmaker was all but taken out of that role in this scheme even before the first preseason game.Oh, and the next person that tells me preseason games don't mean anything.... will.... I'll be nice... get a link to this thread. I bumped this thread after reading the Vilma question and your reply in the pinned thread.

Ahhh, I thought for a minute you'd flipped your lid. I'd like to see Vilma put in a position to make more plays, too. A couple extra points then I'll stop harassing you. First, there's nothing wrong with having a sudden, quick to pursue ILB/MLB. That's becoming all the rage. More and more "undersized" MLB whose speed is a primary asset -- Witherspoon, Ryans, Thurman, Thomas, etc. Even the bigger MLB (Urlacher, Lewis, Hayes, prospects like Brooks) are expected to be speedy. The plugger MLB days are all but over and the Jeremiah Trotters of the world are soon to go the way of the dinosaur.Second, ILBs in the hybrid front scheme are very often used as a big play threat -- it's really a LB driven scheme. Tedy Bruschi had seasons of 4-5 sacks, a couple INTs and multiple passes defended in NE's heyday. Vilma can do the same. Besides, the RILB is pretty close to an WLB/OLB role when the 3-4 "OLB" align on the LOS. I'd be surprised if Vilma could reliably beat TE and OT in pass rush. Speed isn't enough. He's more likely to be effective on delayed blitzes up the middle or blitzes from an overloaded formation. I think those things are coming as the Jets grow into the scheme.

Well, perhaps it's my frustration at just how terrible Bryan Thomas' pass rush is. He doesn't have an inside move. He doesn't have an outside move. He just runs up to the tackle in a straight line and plays patty cake with him. I've seen enough to know that Vilma can generate a better pass rush than Thomas can. Either Thomas is putrid, or he's been told to cut off the outside to prevent the QB from rolling to his right, which is a possiblilty. Since the Jets get VERY little pressure on opposing QB's, I'd at least like to see Mangini try something different. In the meantime, Vilma (who is in on the nickel, btw) is consistantly getting knocked down or upfield by guards and tackles. Until they can get better protection for Vilma, both in an NFL and a FF sense, he is a second tier LB. When he does shoot a gap, he's usually guessed wrong. I suppose I should just be more patient while the Jets continue to try to improve with this scheme, but I'd also like to see a little more creativity.... something Mangini was supposed to bring. He has done that on offense, but the defense is pretty predictable so far.Reaper... I know what you mean about TGG. Posting there has become less fun, that's for sure. Threads like "Fire Sutton!" and "how long does D'B Ferguson get a pass?" are some pretty stoooopid posts. I wish they had a kiddie section... sorta like the kids table at Thanksgiving dinner, ya' know?

 

[Rovers]

Bumped for 5 Rings.....