Walsh Hands Over 8 Tapes (1 Viewer)

[top dog]

This thread makes me both sad and laugh at the same time.

 

[Kit Fisto]

I think I've yet to meet a Pats fan that thinks the Pats did anything wrong. I've also yet to meet a non-Pats fan that doesn't thing the Pats were wrong. This threads have the feel of political debate, in that no one is actually listening (reading) to anything anyone is saying, just spewing any analogy or article that agrees with what they think.

I *do* think Pats fans are letting Belichick off too easy. He gave people ammo to try to discredit anything the Pats did in their dynasty, and I think if I were a Pats fan, I'd be a little more pissed about this whole thing *to* Belichick.

But you're not. Pats fans love Belichick. All I'll ever need to convince myself of that is to remember the incredibly loud, 2-minute standing ovation Belichick received the very next game after the scandal broke. Gave me chills.Time to give up the witch hunt.

 

[crowe1130]

I think I've yet to meet a Pats fan that thinks the Pats did anything wrong. I've also yet to meet a non-Pats fan that doesn't thing the Pats were wrong. This threads have the feel of political debate, in that no one is actually listening (reading) to anything anyone is saying, just spewing any analogy or article that agrees with what they think.

I *do* think Pats fans are letting Belichick off too easy. He gave people ammo to try to discredit anything the Pats did in their dynasty, and I think if I were a Pats fan, I'd be a little more pissed about this whole thing *to* Belichick.

But you're not. Pats fans love Belichick. All I'll ever need to convince myself of that is to remember the incredibly loud, 2-minute standing ovation Belichick received the very next game after the scandal broke. Gave me chills.Time to give up the witch hunt.

Yeah, Barry Bonds got a ton of those in San Fran too. Circle the wagons mentality.

 

[JAA]

As a MA transplat from MD, Pats fans are delusional. Philly, Washington, and Bal fans are at least grounded (Was is so-so). Pats fans on the other hand ... re-****-u-luss

 

[Carver]

I think I've yet to meet a Pats fan that thinks the Pats did anything wrong. I've also yet to meet a non-Pats fan that doesn't thing the Pats were wrong. This threads have the feel of political debate, in that no one is actually listening (reading) to anything anyone is saying, just spewing any analogy or article that agrees with what they think.

Nice to meet you. I'm not a Patriot fan and I don't think they cheated at all. I do think what they did was wrong (because they broke a league rule by taping on the sidelines), but I do not believe that they were breaking down those signals at half time and using them in the same game. I have yet to see anyone provide even the slightest bit of evidence of how this would even be possible in 15mins. In all the time since this story broke, you would think at least ONE of the endless programs devoted to investigative sports reporting (Real Sports for instance) would have already aired a segment explaining how this would even be possible. Until someone shows me how this can be done, NE is not guilty of cheating as far as im concerned. Rule violations, yes. Cheating, hardly.

 

[Carver]

As a MA transplat from MD, Pats fans are delusional. Philly, Washington, and Bal fans are at least grounded (Was is so-so). Pats fans on the other hand ... re-****-u-luss

I can agree with this. I typically find Patriot fans completely delusional and arrogant. HOWEVER... I do think they have a legitimate gripe on the whole Spygate nonsense. I'd be pissed too if my teams accomplishments were being dragged through the mud over something so insignificant.Although, I dont agree with you on Skins fans. I find them to be very reasonable when it comes to discussing their team.

 

[ScottyFargo]

I think I've yet to meet a Pats fan that thinks the Pats did anything wrong. I've also yet to meet a non-Pats fan that doesn't thing the Pats were wrong. This threads have the feel of political debate, in that no one is actually listening (reading) to anything anyone is saying, just spewing any analogy or article that agrees with what they think.

Nice to meet you. I'm not a Patriot fan and I don't think they cheated at all. I do think what they did was wrong (because they broke a league rule by taping on the sidelines), but I do not believe that they were breaking down those signals at half time and using them in the same game. I have yet to see anyone provide even the slightest bit of evidence of how this would even be possible in 15mins. In all the time since this story broke, you would think at least ONE of the endless programs devoted to investigative sports reporting (Real Sports for instance) would have already aired a segment explaining how this would even be possible. Until someone shows me how this can be done, NE is not guilty of cheating as far as im concerned. Rule violations, yes. Cheating, hardly.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this but the dictionary says differently:cheat Audio Help (chēt) Pronunciation Key

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

If you care to continue to argue this point and try to diminish what the Pats did by claiming that every team cheats in every game in a multitude of ways, (Pass interference, nuetral zone infractions, holding) you're absolutely right. That is cheating, and the teams are penalized if they are caught. The degree of the infraction is what counts here. 10 yard penalty for holding, which is against the rules, vs. Commissioner's discretion on much more serious infractions.

 

[JamesTheScot]

I don't understand the argument about how the tapes couldn't have had anything to do with their success this year - it's my understanding that the tapes were used to prepare for subsequent games, so previous tapings would definitely have benefited them this year, even if they were no longer taping games this season.

If they handed off all the tapes and material to Goodell, as he required them to do, in early 2007, they wouldn't have had it to use later in the season! Unless you are of the opinion they defied Goodell and made duplicates and used those dupes later in the season. I can't say that didn't happen, but please at least have some basis for the suspician other than "they're cheaters so I'm sure they're still cheating".

Besides that, since it's been proven that they're fine with going all out to cheat in this manner, I for one have to entertain the possibility that they're cheating in other ways as well. I used to have respect for this franchise. I don't anymore.

They weren't going "all out". The only thing they did that was illegal, as another poster stated, was tape FROM RESTRICTED LOCATIONS. So the only thing they did different than what your favorite team does every Sunday is chose a different spot to set up the camera. That's not "going all out" in my book.How many times do you see coaches on the sideline speaking into their mic with the clipboard over their mouth? Why do you think they do that? Do you think they only do that when playing the Patriots?

Were the Patriots breaking the rules? Yes.

Did they deserve to be punished? Yes.

Were they trying to gain an advantage? Of course.

Was their cheating any worse than what other teams do every day? I don't think so. Keep it in perspective. You had Ron Jawarski admit that the Rams stole the Cardnials' signals prior to a playoff game IIRC. There is a rich history of spying in the NFL.

Did they actually gain a competitive advantage from filming from a different angle? I think so, or else they wouldn't have done it for so many years. But there's no evidence that it made a W/L difference in any particular game. Given that the difference between a W and L in the NFL can literally turn on one play, and that careers and millions of dollars turn on W's and L's, I believe NFL staff would spend thousands of dollars on the chance that they might see a return on one key play in a game.

I suspect the other NFL owners and coaches aren't as fired up about this as we are in these internet chat rooms is that they know that they cheat and look for loopholes as well and they don't want to become the next target for a witch hunt. Nor do they want to take a hardline, hypocritical position and inspire their own fans to even greater heights of righteous indignation over the Pat's cheating only to have some disgruntled ex-staffer "out" their own covert operations next month.

With the money involved, the NFL teams are either all complicit and just as guilty or there just wasn't that much of an advantage that the Pat's gained. If that isn't the case, someone with millions of dollars at stake in having a winning ball club would be raising holy-hell over the Pat's unfair advantage. But that isn't happening is it? No, it's us fans, us "outsiders" who are all bent about this. Follow the money. The money says this isn't a big deal unless the ignorant fans stop buying tickets.

 

[Barry]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

 

[Gr00vus]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

 

[Gr00vus]

If they handed off all the tapes and material to Goodell, as he required them to do, in early 2007, they wouldn't have had it to use later in the season! Unless you are of the opinion they defied Goodell and made duplicates and used those dupes later in the season. I can't say that didn't happen, but please at least have some basis for the suspician other than "they're cheaters so I'm sure they're still cheating"....

Uh what? If they've already analyzed the content and broken it down, they don't need the tapes anymore anyway. Seems like that's exactly what they were doing. Obviously the information obtained via illegal taping would still be useful even after the tapes are no longer needed - seems easy to understand to me.

Given that the difference between a W and L in the NFL can literally turn on one play, and that careers and millions of dollars turn on W's and L's, I believe NFL staff would spend thousands of dollars on the chance that they might see a return on one key play in a game.

Yeah, and if you know what the other team is going to do prior to that one crucial play it gives you a huge advantage right?Three superbowl wins later, I think the cheating has paid for itself and then some.

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

 

[GregR_2]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

It's silly to propose someone should quit supporting their team just because they employed a steroid user.Now if a team is distributing steroids themselves, or is party to the knowledge steroids are being used and they don't try to stop it, a true fan should be expressing his upset at his team. Fans of that team should be calling louder than anyone for them to act ethically instead of selling out their principles and defending them for doing something they knew was wrong.

 

[Gr00vus]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

Riiight again. Because one guy using steroids is the same thing as a franchise wide illegal taping cheating endeavor. Brilliant.By the way, not a Merriman supporter here - he did the crime, he lost my respect. I'd like to see them replace him with someone else if possible.Anyway, nice deflection, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

It's silly to propose someone should quit supporting their team just because they employed a steroid user.Now if a team is distributing steroids themselves, or is party to the knowledge steroids are being used and they don't try to stop it, a true fan should be expressing his upset at his team. Fans of that team should be calling louder than anyone for them to act ethically instead of selling out their principles and defending them for doing something they knew was wrong.

It's silly to imply that using banned substances (which is also illegal) is less egregious than a rules violation of videotaping from an unapproved LOCATION.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

Riiight again. Because one guy using steroids is the same thing as a franchise wide illegal taping cheating endeavor. Brilliant.By the way, not a Merriman supporter here - he did the crime, he lost my respect. I'd like to see them replace him with someone else if possible.Anyway, nice deflection, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You're right, NFL rules violations are much more damaging than federal crimes.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

Blatant disregard for the rules: We got it. And they've been punished accordingly. There is no smoking gun. Let it go.

 

[Kit Fisto]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

Riiight again. Because one guy using steroids is the same thing as a franchise wide illegal taping cheating endeavor. Brilliant.By the way, not a Merriman supporter here - he did the crime, he lost my respect. I'd like to see them replace him with someone else if possible.Anyway, nice deflection, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

One last thing: It's also naive to think Shawn Merriman, Wade Wilson and Rodney Harrison are the only people in the NFL using banned substances.There are 'roiders/HGH users on every single team in the NFL, bank on it.

 

[GregR_2]

If this happened in amateur sports where the foundation is fair play and competition, the people responsible would be given a long suspension or thrown out. The NFL is about money and it's their league, whatever happens won't bother me either way.

Word up. And posters want to say Pats fans have their heads in the sand It's the Pollyanna, gee-golly-gosh, I'm so offended crowd that's looking just a little naive about what goes on behind closed doors in professional sports. And it's also uber-naive to think that their teams are squeaky-clean as well. (Yes I get it, the Pats are the only team to get caught. But spare us the self-righteousness.)

Riiiight. We should just ignore blatant disregard for the rules of the game when they're exposed and blow it off because we expect everyone in it to cheat. That's a much better perspective on things.

So tell me, you've quit supporting the Chargers then because they employ steroid users, right?

It's silly to propose someone should quit supporting their team just because they employed a steroid user.Now if a team is distributing steroids themselves, or is party to the knowledge steroids are being used and they don't try to stop it, a true fan should be expressing his upset at his team. Fans of that team should be calling louder than anyone for them to act ethically instead of selling out their principles and defending them for doing something they knew was wrong.

It's silly to imply that using banned substances (which is also illegal) is less egregious than a rules violation of videotaping from an unapproved LOCATION.

If you read my post you would note that I never made any implication between steroids and videotaping. I made the implication that your equating the unethical actions of a lone player vs those of a franchise front office is what is silly. Players have responsibility to their team too, yes, but ultimately the team is who is responsible for the franchise. If Pacman or Vick does something wrong, ultimately it is the Titans and Falcons who have to decide what to do for the integrity of the franchise. When those most entrusted with that integrity are the ones being unethical in the same manner, it's a lot more serious issue.If the franchise was pushing steroid use, then your statement would be a good parallel to the Pats situation and then if I replied you maybe could take what I said as implying some relationship between videotaping and steroids. An individual player using steroids compared to Spygate is comparing apples and oranges... if you wanted them to equate you should have said it was the team pushing the steroids on the players.Regardless, how about responding to my conclusion, that a team's fans should be the ones calling most loudly for their team to behave ethically, rather than supporting them in clearly unethical behavior? Do you disagree that Patriots fans should deserve a team that represents them in a way that is ethical, classy, and follows the rules?

 

[PatsFanCT]

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

Because the rule has only been in place for two years. Before that, all teams were allowed to have cameras on the sidelines. And the fact that Jimmy Johnson said he did the same thing for eighteen years and that he learned it from someone in the Kansas City organization who implied it was common practice should pretty much tell you what you need to know... Or tell you what you want to keep denying.

 

[David Yudkin]

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

Because the rule has only been in place for two years. Before that, all teams were allowed to have cameras on the sidelines. And the fact that Jimmy Johnson said he did the same thing for eighteen years and that he learned it from someone in the Kansas City organization who implied it was common practice should pretty much tell you what you need to know... Or tell you what you want to keep denying.

To clarify, I believe the rule has been in place for quite some time but a memo was sent to the league that it was going to start to be ENFORCED two years ago.So it probably was around back in the day but no one cared. But I do not believe that teams have been allowed to have cameras on the sidelines (and if they did not in recent memory).There are probably other rules that are getting ignored (uniform violations, where players/coaches stand on the sideline, when players can and can't go on the field, who can legally call timeout, etc.) that no one really cares about and only will surface when it impacts a game or the league elects to enforce the rule.But in this case I think it would be disingenuous to assert that teams were always allowed to have cameras onthe sideline as I don't believe that is the case.

 

[Gr00vus]

If you read my post you would note that I never made any implication between steroids and videotaping. I made the implication that your equating the unethical actions of a lone player vs those of a franchise front office is what is silly. Players have responsibility to their team too, yes, but ultimately the team is who is responsible for the franchise. If Pacman or Vick does something wrong, ultimately it is the Titans and Falcons who have to decide what to do for the integrity of the franchise. When those most entrusted with that integrity are the ones being unethical in the same manner, it's a lot more serious issue.If the franchise was pushing steroid use, then your statement would be a good parallel to the Pats situation and then if I replied you maybe could take what I said as implying some relationship between videotaping and steroids. An individual player using steroids compared to Spygate is comparing apples and oranges... if you wanted them to equate you should have said it was the team pushing the steroids on the players.

 

[Gr00vus]

the rule has been in place for quite some time but a memo was sent to the league that it was going to start to be ENFORCED two years ago.... I do not believe that teams have been allowed to have cameras on the sidelines (and if they did not in recent memory).... in this case I think it would be disingenuous to assert that teams were always allowed to have cameras onthe sideline as I don't believe that is the case.

 

[biggyd]

Teams have been taping signals for decades.

The Patriots were wrong to tape signals from an illegal location. I wonder if Marty Schottenheimer taped the Patriot signals when he was head coach of the chargers?

Check out the following transcript from a Jimmy Johnson interview with WFAN

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/p...e-is-overblown/

Jimmy Johnson thinks Spygate is overblown

We originally posted this WFAN interview as having been conducted during Super Bowl week. It actually dates back to September. Regardless, it’s still interesting to note how commonplace former Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson feels the use of cameras is by NFL teams. He admits he used them to steal signs all the time.

Q: How about the spying thing Jimmy. You’re a coach does that bother you what Belichick did?

JJ: Oh please. I’ve said it on our show. Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they’re not on the press box side you can’t do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago.

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that’s when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don’t do it any more, he did it.

Q: Did you ever steal signals?

JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.

Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

JJ: Yeah.

Q: Oh you did.

JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?

JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

Because the rule has only been in place for two years. Before that, all teams were allowed to have cameras on the sidelines. And the fact that Jimmy Johnson said he did the same thing for eighteen years and that he learned it from someone in the Kansas City organization who implied it was common practice should pretty much tell you what you need to know... Or tell you what you want to keep denying.

To clarify, I believe the rule has been in place for quite some time but a memo was sent to the league that it was going to start to be ENFORCED two years ago.So it probably was around back in the day but no one cared. But I do not believe that teams have been allowed to have cameras on the sidelines (and if they did not in recent memory).There are probably other rules that are getting ignored (uniform violations, where players/coaches stand on the sideline, when players can and can't go on the field, who can legally call timeout, etc.) that no one really cares about and only will surface when it impacts a game or the league elects to enforce the rule.But in this case I think it would be disingenuous to assert that teams were always allowed to have cameras onthe sideline as I don't believe that is the case.

Ok, then I stand corrected. Maybe it was the local TV cameras being removed that I was thinking about. But when those cameras were allowed, how difficult would it be for a team to have their own camera crew? According to Jimmy Johnson, not too difficult at all. Or, with all teams filming the game from their legal position in the end zones, does anybody really believe NONE of the other 31 teams zoom in on the signals?Not to say what the Patriots did was ok, because it wasn't, and they were rightfully punished. But for all those sitting on their high-horses, pointing their appalled fingers at the Patriots, it is not a stretch, by any means, to say that every team does it. You can hide behind the "But my team never got caught" defense all you want, but the fact is, they probably did the same thing, or something else equally diabolical.

 

[David Yudkin]

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

Because the rule has only been in place for two years. Before that, all teams were allowed to have cameras on the sidelines. And the fact that Jimmy Johnson said he did the same thing for eighteen years and that he learned it from someone in the Kansas City organization who implied it was common practice should pretty much tell you what you need to know... Or tell you what you want to keep denying.

To clarify, I believe the rule has been in place for quite some time but a memo was sent to the league that it was going to start to be ENFORCED two years ago.So it probably was around back in the day but no one cared. But I do not believe that teams have been allowed to have cameras on the sidelines (and if they did not in recent memory).There are probably other rules that are getting ignored (uniform violations, where players/coaches stand on the sideline, when players can and can't go on the field, who can legally call timeout, etc.) that no one really cares about and only will surface when it impacts a game or the league elects to enforce the rule.But in this case I think it would be disingenuous to assert that teams were always allowed to have cameras onthe sideline as I don't believe that is the case.

Ok, then I stand corrected. Maybe it was the local TV cameras being removed that I was thinking about. But when those cameras were allowed, how difficult would it be for a team to have their own camera crew? According to Jimmy Johnson, not too difficult at all. Or, with all teams filming the game from their legal position in the end zones, does anybody really believe NONE of the other 31 teams zoom in on the signals?Not to say what the Patriots did was ok, because it wasn't, and they were rightfully punished. But for all those sitting on their high-horses, pointing their appalled fingers at the Patriots, it is not a stretch, by any means, to say that every team does it. You can hide behind the "But my team never got caught" defense all you want, but the fact is, they probably did the same thing, or something else equally diabolical.

I agree with what you are saying, only clarifying what I believe the rule is. Yes, the Pats broke the rules. That's pretty evident. To some that's a major issue to others it's not.But if it came out that the Lions had been taping teams against the rules would we even be having this discussion?And for the record, I would not be shocked if the Patriots had other skeletons in their closet and had done other things to try to bend the rules. But I would be totally shocked if no other teams were not trying to get away with the same things.

 

[GregR_2]

Re: the everyone's doing it thing - where's the proof? Why is this the only team in the entire NFL, comprised of thousands of potential info leaks, that has been exposed? I find that very curious.

Because the rule has only been in place for two years. Before that, all teams were allowed to have cameras on the sidelines. And the fact that Jimmy Johnson said he did the same thing for eighteen years and that he learned it from someone in the Kansas City organization who implied it was common practice should pretty much tell you what you need to know... Or tell you what you want to keep denying.

To clarify, I believe the rule has been in place for quite some time but a memo was sent to the league that it was going to start to be ENFORCED two years ago.So it probably was around back in the day but no one cared. But I do not believe that teams have been allowed to have cameras on the sidelines (and if they did not in recent memory).

There are probably other rules that are getting ignored (uniform violations, where players/coaches stand on the sideline, when players can and can't go on the field, who can legally call timeout, etc.) that no one really cares about and only will surface when it impacts a game or the league elects to enforce the rule.

But in this case I think it would be disingenuous to assert that teams were always allowed to have cameras onthe sideline as I don't believe that is the case.

Right. One of the ironies here that doesn't have me feeling much sympathy for the Pats is that they were the team that was responsible for the league to start enforcing it. According to the NFL's spokesman, the Giants complained to the league about the Pats videotaping their coaches signals in a pre-season game. The league didn't catch the Patriots on that occasion, but it was the impetus for the memo, according to the NFL.If anyone should have gotten the message to stop taping, it should have been the team whose actions caused the shift in enforcement.

 

[Carver]

Teams have been taping signals for decades.

The Patriots were wrong to tape signals from an illegal location. I wonder if Marty Schottenheimer taped the Patriot signals when he was head coach of the chargers?

Check out the following transcript from a Jimmy Johnson interview with WFAN

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/p...e-is-overblown/

Jimmy Johnson thinks Spygate is overblown

We originally posted this WFAN interview as having been conducted during Super Bowl week. It actually dates back to September. Regardless, it’s still interesting to note how commonplace former Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson feels the use of cameras is by NFL teams. He admits he used them to steal signs all the time.

Q: How about the spying thing Jimmy. You’re a coach does that bother you what Belichick did?

JJ: Oh please. I’ve said it on our show. Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they’re not on the press box side you can’t do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago.

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that’s when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don’t do it any more, he did it.

Q: Did you ever steal signals?

JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.

Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

JJ: Yeah.

Q: Oh you did.

JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?

JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.

Holy Crap. Is this shtick, or did Jimmy Jonson really admit to this stuff?? If so wow. Good for him. Stepping up and having the balls to say what every coach in the league is afraid to. Wonder why the media didn't make a bigger deal out of this?

 

[LDotson]

If Walsh tells the commissioner something the Pats did wrong (even if he

has no evidence) other than what they were already punished for. Walsh

also has a meeting with Spector too to tell him too. If the commissioner

doesn't do anything about it and brushes it off. The government could step

in and investigate and put people under oath. If Spector knows there is more

that the NFL is covering up than just video taping for use of future games.

 

[Bossman]

If Walsh tells the commissioner something the Pats did wrong (even if he has no evidence) other than what they were already punished for. Walsh also has a meeting with Spector too to tell him too. If the commissioner doesn't do anything about it and brushes it off. The government could stepin and investigate and put people under oath. If Spector knows there is more that the NFL is covering up than just video taping for use of future games.

If Walsh lied to a Boston reporter saying that he had a tape of the Rams walkthrough, why would Goodell, or anyone else, believe another word he says?He lost all credibility by not providing said tape... and it's his word vs. Belichicks.

 

[Bossman]

The other seven tapes are more sophisticated. They show shots of the opposing coaches’ signals, followed immediately by a shot of the play, usually from the end zone camera, Levy said.The tape from the A.F.C. championship game is the most extensive, showing two angles of each play.

To me, this is evidence that the tapes were NOT used for the game in which they were taken....since the tapes were edited to show two different camera angles of coaches then players.This is what Belichick thought was his "loophole" in the rule.... "no filming is permited ...for use during that game"Clearly the team was using the film after the game otherwise there would be no need to edit.As Belichick told Goodell, it was for offseason use (or at least between games use).Belichick adamantly denied ever authorizing taping of another teams practice / walkthrough.There is no "loophole" for that one.Belichick may be dumb but he's not stupid.imo the tapes held by Walsh are likely copies of the tapes the Patriots turned over to the NFL... nothing new here.This is over.(edit to add... they would not have had time to "edit film" during a game)