Yes, it was well worht it. Kudos to the Brewers for at least attempting to make something happen instead of sitting on their haunches like the mets and watching hope go down the drain. CC brought a spark to the Brewers and without him I don't think they make the playoffs at all. For a franchise that was moribund for so long it was better to make it and lose than to be on the outside looking in.For the sake of argument, let's say LaPorta becomes something along the lines of an All-Star caliber player. Good average, .370+ OBP, 25-30 homers and so forth. Would you consider it to be worth it for a lackluster stretch run and an early exit from the playoffs?
More confident about next year? Really? No Ben Sheets, no CC Sabathia...I won't be picking them to win 90 games again. I still think it was a trade that was worth it. When you have a shot, you should take it. Just perpetually bringing along prospects and struggling to be around .500 isn't going to get you anywhere. And that's what Milwaukee had been doing for years.Jefferson the Caregiver said:That team needed some playoff experience regardless. I think it was a good move, next year they should come into camp a little more confident about their chances.
A healthy Gallardo in 2009 >>> Ben Sheets I'm a firm believer that Sheets is going to need Tommy John surgery before he plays again, I would expect the announcement within the next few weeks.CC will be extremely hard to replace, and I doubt they plan on replacing him with just one arm. If the Brewers are able to rid themselves of Suppan and I think they resign Gagne for pennies compared to what they paid him this year. That frees up about $15 million that I believe the Brewers will re-allocate to their pitching staff. They also planned on having Cappy this season as well, which means they should be better prepared. Add that with a year of experience under the belt of Manny Parra and I don't see how their rotation will be any worse off in 2009.The front office has shown committment in spending money and getting the players they need to win. This isn't the 1990's Brewers anymore, make no mistake about that.I think they win 88-92 again next season.I don't think they are "perpetually" bringing up minors either. Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, and Hardy were all accumulated with the same mindset and brought up within two years of each other. This is the core they are going with, and will win a championship with. Fielder and Weeks will be traded or move along before the 2010 trade deadline, but Fielder is already at his peak as a player and Weeks is a selfish career .230 hitter that doesn't bunt. He doesn't have a place in a championship caliber lineup.If they can get consistency out of their hitting staff and raise their team batting average, they can play with anyone.More confident about next year? Really? No Ben Sheets, no CC Sabathia...I won't be picking them to win 90 games again. I still think it was a trade that was worth it. When you have a shot, you should take it. Just perpetually bringing along prospects and struggling to be around .500 isn't going to get you anywhere. And that's what Milwaukee had been doing for years.Jefferson the Caregiver said:That team needed some playoff experience regardless. I think it was a good move, next year they should come into camp a little more confident about their chances.
wowBy Cappy, I am assuming you mean Chris Capuano, not Capella, right?So you think Gallardo, Parra, Capuano, Bush and someone else is going to be a better rotation than Sheets, Sabathia, Parra, Bush and Suppan?Interested in seeing who you think is coming out of the bullpen too next year. Derrick Turnbow coming back?A healthy Gallardo in 2009 >>> Ben Sheets I'm a firm believer that Sheets is going to need Tommy John surgery before he plays again, I would expect the announcement within the next few weeks.CC will be extremely hard to replace, and I doubt they plan on replacing him with just one arm. If the Brewers are able to rid themselves of Suppan and I think they resign Gagne for pennies compared to what they paid him this year. That frees up about $15 million that I believe the Brewers will re-allocate to their pitching staff. They also planned on having Cappy this season as well, which means they should be better prepared. Add that with a year of experience under the belt of Manny Parra and I don't see how their rotation will be any worse off in 2009.The front office has shown committment in spending money and getting the players they need to win. This isn't the 1990's Brewers anymore, make no mistake about that.I think they win 88-92 again next season.I don't think they are "perpetually" bringing up minors either. Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, and Hardy were all accumulated with the same mindset and brought up within two years of each other. This is the core they are going with, and will win a championship with. Fielder and Weeks will be traded or move along before the 2010 trade deadline, but Fielder is already at his peak as a player and Weeks is a selfish career .230 hitter that doesn't bunt. He doesn't have a place in a championship caliber lineup.If they can get consistency out of their hitting staff and raise their team batting average, they can play with anyone.
I believe the Crew is on the hook for 2 more years and ~$20MM for Suppan. Its not likely they can unload that to anyone. Also, from what I've read on other Brewer blogs, the cheapest they could sign Gagne for is about $7MM based on players union guidelines for FA contracts.I'm not 100% sure on the above figures FWIW....A healthy Gallardo in 2009 >>> Ben Sheets I'm a firm believer that Sheets is going to need Tommy John surgery before he plays again, I would expect the announcement within the next few weeks.More confident about next year? Really? No Ben Sheets, no CC Sabathia...I won't be picking them to win 90 games again.Jefferson the Caregiver said:That team needed some playoff experience regardless. I think it was a good move, next year they should come into camp a little more confident about their chances.
I still think it was a trade that was worth it. When you have a shot, you should take it. Just perpetually bringing along prospects and struggling to be around .500 isn't going to get you anywhere. And that's what Milwaukee had been doing for years.
CC will be extremely hard to replace, and I doubt they plan on replacing him with just one arm. If the Brewers are able to rid themselves of Suppan and I think they resign Gagne for pennies compared to what they paid him this year. That frees up about $15 million that I believe the Brewers will re-allocate to their pitching staff. They also planned on having Cappy this season as well, which means they should be better prepared. Add that with a year of experience under the belt of Manny Parra and I don't see how their rotation will be any worse off in 2009.
The front office has shown committment in spending money and getting the players they need to win. This isn't the 1990's Brewers anymore, make no mistake about that.
I think they win 88-92 again next season.
I don't think they are "perpetually" bringing up minors either. Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, and Hardy were all accumulated with the same mindset and brought up within two years of each other. This is the core they are going with, and will win a championship with. Fielder and Weeks will be traded or move along before the 2010 trade deadline, but Fielder is already at his peak as a player and Weeks is a selfish career .230 hitter that doesn't bunt. He doesn't have a place in a championship caliber lineup.
If they can get consistency out of their hitting staff and raise their team batting average, they can play with anyone.
Capuano is done as a major leaguer would be my guess. I believe this was his 2nd TJ surgery in a 5 year period and he isn't getting any younger. I was expecting good things from him this season after an off year last season, but I don't see him coming back.I thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.Hopefully the Brewers learned a lesson when they picked up Mota and Torres off the scrap heap from the Mets and Pirates. I had regarded Mota as one of the worst guys you could ever call out of the bullpen, even before he came to the Brewers.I see the rotation next season shaping up more like:Gallardo, TBA, Bush, TBA, ParraOutside of 1 bad start in Colorado his rookie season, Gallardo has been an absolute stud since coming to the majors. Sheets is a former strikeout pitcher that can no longer strike guys out like he could 4 or 5 years ago. When he tries to pitch too hard he leaves balls in the zone and gets punished. It also seems like he never does anything to correct himself in these situations, he just makes the same mistakes in the same situation until he pulls himself or takes a seat. Most aces do not suffer from the same types of blow ups followed by a month on the DL that Sheets does. When he is on, he is on, but let someone else have the headache and lets have a guy that we can count on when the going gets tough. As far as the bullpen, until they make a couple moves, I don't even know if I can guess at it, but I don't see how makeshift crew 2009 could be any worse than makeshift crew 2008. Almost any new manager would also handle the bullpen better than Yost did for 90% of the season, which has to lead to some type of results. He left his guys in for too long in key sistuations and he played matchups stranger than almost any other big league manager.wowBy Cappy, I am assuming you mean Chris Capuano, not Capella, right?So you think Gallardo, Parra, Capuano, Bush and someone else is going to be a better rotation than Sheets, Sabathia, Parra, Bush and Suppan?Interested in seeing who you think is coming out of the bullpen too next year. Derrick Turnbow coming back?A healthy Gallardo in 2009 >>> Ben Sheets I'm a firm believer that Sheets is going to need Tommy John surgery before he plays again, I would expect the announcement within the next few weeks.CC will be extremely hard to replace, and I doubt they plan on replacing him with just one arm. If the Brewers are able to rid themselves of Suppan and I think they resign Gagne for pennies compared to what they paid him this year. That frees up about $15 million that I believe the Brewers will re-allocate to their pitching staff. They also planned on having Cappy this season as well, which means they should be better prepared. Add that with a year of experience under the belt of Manny Parra and I don't see how their rotation will be any worse off in 2009.The front office has shown committment in spending money and getting the players they need to win. This isn't the 1990's Brewers anymore, make no mistake about that.I think they win 88-92 again next season.I don't think they are "perpetually" bringing up minors either. Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, and Hardy were all accumulated with the same mindset and brought up within two years of each other. This is the core they are going with, and will win a championship with. Fielder and Weeks will be traded or move along before the 2010 trade deadline, but Fielder is already at his peak as a player and Weeks is a selfish career .230 hitter that doesn't bunt. He doesn't have a place in a championship caliber lineup.If they can get consistency out of their hitting staff and raise their team batting average, they can play with anyone.
Nevermind, its $25MM for Suppan. LINKI thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.
Oof.Jeff Suppan rhp
4 years/$42M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
* signed as a free agent 12/06
* $1M signing bonus
* 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M,
11:$12.75M club option ($2M buyout)
* full no-trade clause, 2007-08
* limited no-trade clause, 2009-10 (may block deals to 8 clubs each year)
Oof is an incredible understatement. Of the free agent pitchers, I wouldn't mind seeing any of the following in a Brewers uniform next season at market price:Nevermind, its $25MM for Suppan. LINKI thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.Oof.Jeff Suppan rhp
4 years/$42M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
* signed as a free agent 12/06
* $1M signing bonus
* 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M,
11:$12.75M club option ($2M buyout)
* full no-trade clause, 2007-08
* limited no-trade clause, 2009-10 (may block deals to 8 clubs each year)
Oof. Would you want to offer multiple years to any of those guys?Oof is an incredible understatement. Of the free agent pitchers, I wouldn't mind seeing any of the following in a Brewers uniform next season at market price:Nevermind, its $25MM for Suppan. LINKI thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.Oof.Jeff Suppan rhp
4 years/$42M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
* signed as a free agent 12/06
* $1M signing bonus
* 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M,
11:$12.75M club option ($2M buyout)
* full no-trade clause, 2007-08
* limited no-trade clause, 2009-10 (may block deals to 8 clubs each year)
Oliver Perez
Randy Wolf
Braden Looper
Freddy Garcia
Sergio Mitre
and best case scenario would be to see either Lachey or Burnett at the top of the rotation, but I doubt either of these happen.
Perez or Wolf I would. The other three are all long shots, but the FA pool for pitchers gets real old real fast. Garcia could be a decent #4 guy, probably not much more, probably the same for Looper, but both are capable of putting up a quality 70% of the time in an optimum season. Mitre throws a lot of ground balls which is a plus for Miller Park, but a minus for an error-prone infield. I don't feel as if Suppan is much better an option than any of these three guys, maybe I am being too hard on the guy.Oof. Would you want to offer multiple years to any of those guys?Oof is an incredible understatement. Of the free agent pitchers, I wouldn't mind seeing any of the following in a Brewers uniform next season at market price:Nevermind, its $25MM for Suppan. LINKI thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.Oof.Jeff Suppan rhp
4 years/$42M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
* signed as a free agent 12/06
* $1M signing bonus
* 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M,
11:$12.75M club option ($2M buyout)
* full no-trade clause, 2007-08
* limited no-trade clause, 2009-10 (may block deals to 8 clubs each year)
Oliver Perez
Randy Wolf
Braden Looper
Freddy Garcia
Sergio Mitre
and best case scenario would be to see either Lachey or Burnett at the top of the rotation, but I doubt either of these happen.
I'm just not sold on LaPorta and CC played better than anyone else in the league during the 2nd half, so I don't know what more you could ask for out of the guy.I guess I'll be the contrarian. I don't think it was worth it. Obviously I'm not a Brewers fan so I can't speak to their level of excitement, but I've been a fan of a horrid baseball team for 10 years prior to this one, and I can't see being THAT satisfied with simply the wild-card and a quick exit.Maybe you could have moved Prince for Cain and put LaPorta at first, or given Matt a year to shine and then moved him for a quality young arm under control for 3-5 years. I mean, look at that staff - where are the quality starts coming from next year? You really want to pay for Freddy Garcia or some of those other deadweights? Not trying to be a #####, but some Brewers fans in this thread are kidding themselves with that rotation next year.I was down on the trade when it happened, and am now. It reaped some nice short-term benefits but I think it could bite them in the ### down the road. And I'm not talking from the dollar perspective - I'm sure the owner turned plenty of cash off this deal.Just my two-cents. I think it is one of the more interesting trades in recent times and am looking forward to seeing how LaPorta turns out.
It's an interesting opinion coming from a Rays fan, since Tampa chose not to deal prospects for veteran pieces at the trade deadline. Things are working out so far for the Rays, although it wasn't a sure thing at the time.Although they're both small market teams with generally young lineups, the Brewers situation was different from Tampa Bay's in two significant ways. The impending loss of Ben Sheets brought more urgency to 2008 in the eyes of Brewer management. More importantly, the Brewers drought is more than twice as long as the Rays. 26 years is a lot longer than a decade. The last time the Brewers made the playoffs, Rocco Baldelli was just a baby. OK, he's still kind of a baby. Put it this way, the last time the Brewers made the playoffs, Baldelli had never pulled a hamstring. Desparate times call for desparate means. I wouldn't discount the financial impact of the Sabathia trade though. The club made a lot of money since July. Some of that will go into Anastasio's pocket but some can be used to overpay for marginal free agent pitching.I guess I'll be the contrarian. I don't think it was worth it. Obviously I'm not a Brewers fan so I can't speak to their level of excitement, but I've been a fan of a horrid baseball team for 10 years prior to this one, and I can't see being THAT satisfied with simply the wild-card and a quick exit.Maybe you could have moved Prince for Cain and put LaPorta at first, or given Matt a year to shine and then moved him for a quality young arm under control for 3-5 years. I mean, look at that staff - where are the quality starts coming from next year? You really want to pay for Freddy Garcia or some of those other deadweights? Not trying to be a #####, but some Brewers fans in this thread are kidding themselves with that rotation next year.I was down on the trade when it happened, and am now. It reaped some nice short-term benefits but I think it could bite them in the ### down the road. And I'm not talking from the dollar perspective - I'm sure the owner turned plenty of cash off this deal.Just my two-cents. I think it is one of the more interesting trades in recent times and am looking forward to seeing how LaPorta turns out.
I think thats his point. I dont wanna speak for Cappy here but there's no telling what LaPorta and the other prospects will be worth in the long run. If the four turn out to be perennial All-Stars, and the Brewers fail to field a decent team for the next few years, was the 3 month rental worth it? Ultimately the Brewers are home right now, watching the NLCS on TV.I have to agree with a point that TAN made earlier and Eephus sort of seconded about taking a shot. This was a "win now" move. As a Brewer fan who has continually seen talent leaving for a contender, it was refreshing to have a stud come here because WE were the contender.I'm just not sold on LaPortaI guess I'll be the contrarian. I don't think it was worth it. Obviously I'm not a Brewers fan so I can't speak to their level of excitement, but I've been a fan of a horrid baseball team for 10 years prior to this one, and I can't see being THAT satisfied with simply the wild-card and a quick exit.
Maybe you could have moved Prince for Cain and put LaPorta at first, or given Matt a year to shine and then moved him for a quality young arm under control for 3-5 years. I mean, look at that staff - where are the quality starts coming from next year? You really want to pay for Freddy Garcia or some of those other deadweights? Not trying to be a #####, but some Brewers fans in this thread are kidding themselves with that rotation next year.
I was down on the trade when it happened, and am now. It reaped some nice short-term benefits but I think it could bite them in the ### down the road. And I'm not talking from the dollar perspective - I'm sure the owner turned plenty of cash off this deal.
Just my two-cents. I think it is one of the more interesting trades in recent times and am looking forward to seeing how LaPorta turns out.
and CC played better than anyone else in the league during the 2nd half, so I don't know what more you could ask for out of the guy.
Really going out on a limb here...CC brought a spark to the Brewers and without him I don't think they make the playoffs at all.
you are forgetting about the compensatory picks, Capella...Who knows, we might get two prospects who are better than any of the ones we gave up with those.Eephus - it's an interesting question, but I would not. The only way the Rays can hope to sustain this success long-term is by maxing out their assets, which Brignac clearly is. Either he'll become a starter for this team one day or he'll bring another asset back in return, that they can control for 3-5 years. Giving somebody like that up for 5 starts from a great pitcher, that could have varied success, would be real short-sighted.
Only $6.5M/yr. more than Zito, but Zito has an extra year (2013) at the end at $20MI read somewhere that CC approached the team and said he'd sign if he got 4 years/100 M...What would you all think of that kind of deal for him???
Not sure where you read that Larry, but I think that's a little out of the Brewers range. That would put >25-30% of their payroll into one player. That could cripple the franchise if he gets hurt or doesn't perform. Not to mention they need to shore up 3B, CF, lefty bats, bullpen among other areas and will need to spend some decent money in the offseason to do that.I read at Sabernomics.com that they figure the going rate should be about 6yrs/$144MM for CC. Its a nice thought and would be a great story if he did return to Milwaukee, but the odds are slim, even with your numbers being relatively fair.I read somewhere that CC approached the team and said he'd sign if he got 4 years/100 M...
What would you all think of that kind of deal for him???
I don't know if I'd agree. The Rays are a young team but can't compete in the long term with big spenders in their division. In reality, their window of opportunity is shorter than it may seem. I wouldn't be surprised to see Friedman make some short-term moves as early as next season.Eephus - it's an interesting question, but I would not. The only way the Rays can hope to sustain this success long-term is by maxing out their assets, which Brignac clearly is. Either he'll become a starter for this team one day or he'll bring another asset back in return, that they can control for 3-5 years. Giving somebody like that up for 5 starts from a great pitcher, that could have varied success, would be real short-sighted.
Yes, they'll be much better-prepared for their next playoff experience with their next team.I think experiencing a playoff run as well as post-season play will benefit the young players on that team
The 2008 Rays improved by 31 games and exceeded their Pythagorean Wins by 5. They're big time candidates to experience the laws of competitive balance and regression to the mean.The Yanks, Sox and Jays have greater revenues and deeper pockets. The Rays aren't in a division where they can sneak into the playoffs with 88 wins, so there will be some pressure to improve the roster. There's more than one way to build a consistent winner but I wouldn't be surprised if they spend more money and make some short-term plays to add a bat or improve their pen.I wouldn't agree with that. If you think their young players are pretty good now and will continue to develop, then they should stay at the top tier for the next 4-5 years.Players signed through:Crawford - 2010..Howell - 12Everybody is locked up for at least two more years, and most for at least four more. Why would Friedman go make a short-term move?
I don't think any move they make will be a BIG short term move, but I could see a smaller one. The Rays probably should move one of Sonny or Edwin Jackson. Maybe they could package one of them with a prospect for a better right fielder.I wouldn't agree with that. If you think their young players are pretty good now and will continue to develop, then they should stay at the top tier for the next 4-5 years.Players signed through:Crawford - 2010Upton - 12Longoria - 16Bartlett - 11Aki - 10Pena - 10Navarro - 12Shields - 14Kazmir - 12Garza - 13Sonny - 13Price - 14Howell - 12Everybody is locked up for at least two more years, and most for at least four more. Why would Friedman go make a short-term move?
I don't think there is any chance he signs a deal worth less than Santana's contract.Strangely, at the time of the trade I would have said the trade would not be worth it if the Brewers failed to make the world series. Now, in retrospect, I think the trade was worth it under the assumptions given by capella in the first post. They went over 3 mil. in attendance and brought some national attention and excitement to the team and Miller Park. The unfortunate thing is that their other big stars - sheets and Hart (the two all-stars) and Fielder - were the big goats in the end. If any one of those super-stars had held form in September and October, the Brewers would still be playing.I read somewhere that CC approached the team and said he'd sign if he got 4 years/100 M...What would you all think of that kind of deal for him???
Suppan signing was a good deal. When he was signed it was for what the market was at nothing more. Suppan allowed the Bewers to let some of the younger arms get more time in the minors, and develop. Without him eating up innings younger pitchers would have to learn at the major league level on how to pitch.Oof is an incredible understatement. Of the free agent pitchers, I wouldn't mind seeing any of the following in a Brewers uniform next season at market price:Nevermind, its $25MM for Suppan. LINKI thought we were only on the hook for Suppan till the end of the season, but I could have been wrong, regardless anything he brought to the table has vanished the last few years, I don't know if I trust him in any pitching situation. I wasn't aware that Gagne's number was still $7 million after all the posturing he has been doing to try to stick around. With the lack of pieces they have in the bullpen, I think he stays around even at that price.Oof.Jeff Suppan rhp
4 years/$42M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
* signed as a free agent 12/06
* $1M signing bonus
* 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M,
11:$12.75M club option ($2M buyout)
* full no-trade clause, 2007-08
* limited no-trade clause, 2009-10 (may block deals to 8 clubs each year)
Oliver Perez
Randy Wolf
Braden Looper
Freddy Garcia
Sergio Mitre
and best case scenario would be to see either Lachey or Burnett at the top of the rotation, but I doubt either of these happen.