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What Are We Seeing? (1 Viewer)
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FairWarning
Footballguy
Especially when they are trying to sell their fans that they are a playoff caliber team.
TheWinz
Footballguy
They knew Zach Wilson wasn't the answer, so they went out and got Aaron Rodgers. When your star QB goes out just a few snaps into the season, it's hard to recover. They are top 10 in rushing yards per attempt, but when you're 31st in scoring, you can't afford to feed Breece Hall, so they are last in rushing attempts. Quite frankly, I am shocked there are 7 teams with worse records. I bet many teams would look just as bad or worse if they lost their star QB.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
The defense is good
The other problem was they spent a TON of money bringing Rodgers Packer buddies in. This includes Mr dropsies Lazard. Their receiving crew outside of Wilson is horrendous and their offensive line is in shambles. That's where they should've spent their money.
I've always said the QB contracts shouldn't count against the cap.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
There is no QB alive that would do well in their offense.
Rodgers played 4 snaps - got hit on 3 of those snaps.
The Oline is a complete mess.
-jb-
Footballguy
Yep. I’ve had this little voice in the back of my head constantly asking, “what if they still looked this bad with Rogers?”
TheWinz
Footballguy
Marino could've. He led the league 10 times in lowest sack percentage, while 4 of those years he led the league in pass attempts. And he was a complete statue back there. Just get the ball out faster.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Then that means there's basically no cap
ghostguy123
Footballguy
How? You can't create QBs out of thin air
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
I doubt it & I’m a huge Marino fan.
Everyone of the Jets QB’s are under siege every snap.
Without an Oline you have no offense/chance in the NFL
Why?
Boston
Footballguy
Everyone knows that...it is lazy to think that...I don't pretend to know the exact formula but it is becoming very apparent that backup QB is becoming more important than it ever has due to where the game currently is...IMO it could be about commitment to long-term development of a young QB (Love is an example of this) or willingness to trade/use high draft assets when you already have an entrenched starter (Love and Jalen Hurts are examples...you could even put Mahomes in this category because Alex Smith was considered a quality QB at that time) or spending $ on a quality veteran...again, I am not saying I have the answer but I do know without a doubt that not having a viable backup can destroy a whole season and I am guessing the NFL will attempt to evolve to address that.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Seriously?
Have you not noticed how huge some QB salaries are , and how it impacts the teams salary cap??
Huh? In my proposal they would LOWER the cap
msudaisy26
Footballguy
This is a hell of an idea.
Doug B
Footballguy
Those teams were the Greatest Show on Turf compared to the games Curtis Painter started for the 2011 Colts.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Yes, worst backup QB in history
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't see how this changes anything. There aren't enough good backup QBs for every team to have them. If there are only 16 capable backup QBs then 1/2 of the league are not going to have a capable backup QB regardless of how the cap impact is fudged.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Yeah, and the owners with endless pockets pay whatever. Turns into major league baseball
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I haven't looked it up but I believe this is true that Marino was not sacked that much because of his ability to get the ball out quickly and him being great at reading the defense and making anticipation throws. He had an excellently strong arm as well that caused the ball to get to his receivers quickly. I don't recall him throwing a lot of interceptions.
That said I am uncertain about the quality of the Dolphins offensive lines back then compared to the Jets line now. I am guessing it was better than what the Jets currently have in a relative sense, but I think the point still stands that a great QB can make an average offensive line look better than it would be with a average or poor QB.
We saw a similar dynamic with Peyton Manning not taking a lot of sacks with the Colts I think. There may be some other examples of this.
It's not just about getting rid of the ball quickly though, that is important of course to negate the pass rush, but to get rid of the ball quickly and not throw interceptions requires a smart QB who can quickly read the defense and throw with accuracy as well.
Even if Wilson gets rid of the ball quick that does not mean he has the other things that make this effective.
Major league baseball has a LOT more parity than NFL. Probably a good thing
Could not disagree more.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Yeah, not sure what he's talking about
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think the main problem is that there just are not enough quality QBs to go around. Teams have trouble finding a quality starting QB much less a good back up QB as well.
Half or more of the teams don't have a good starter to begin with.
That said the salary cap may have some impact on this. QB salaries are so high now even for QBs who are not good starters. We have seen QBs like Case Keenum and others get starter level contracts based on the market as such high demand for a starter at the position because of the scarcity of such players. Then you have teams having their cap budget impacted when they get rid of these high cost contracts because the QBs they signed end up not being worth it. Teams have to find ways to cut corners somewhere and maybe one of those corners is less investment into quality back up QBs. Although again, where are such players?
I do recall prior to the salary cap Era there being perhaps more QB competition between the starting QB and their back up than there is today.
I recall the Vikings having Tommy Kramer and Wade Wilson at the same time for example, both veteran QBs at the time and speculation about which of the two should start as their talent levels while different, they were relatively close to the same quality. I am not sure if this dynamic was more widespread than this across the league back then. Honestly I was pretty young then and I did not know nearly as much about football then as I do now, but it did seem more common back then for there to actually be some QB competitions in training camp and preseason to decide the starter than we see now days. QBs were often not thrust into starting positions as quickly in their careers as they are now. It was more typical for teams to be grooming future starters on their teams for 3 years or so before possibly giving them a real shot at becoming a starter. You had some super teams like the 49ers who had Joe Montana and Steve Young on their roster at the same time.
It was different.
The high salaries that high picks at QB were getting for awhile did seem to turn teams away from this. Sam Bradford for example got paid a ton of money before he ever proved a thing in the NFL just because he was he was the 1st overall pick at QB that season. CBA agreements since then have adjusted this dynamic somewhat so that teams are not paying quite as much for these high pick rookie QBs as they were for awhile there, but it's still a dynamic where teams will try to cut corners now by building a championship team around a QB on their rookie contract as being a window where they can afford to load up at other positions before they have to pay their QB the big bucks.
So the salary cap is having some influence on the market and teams may be cutting corners by not investing as much into the back up QB position.
It still comes down to supply and demand though, and the demand for starting QBs is so high that even QBs who are not good get paid a lot of money just because of the market.
The pool of available talent has its ebbs and flows as well. Right now we may be in a period where there are fewer options available at the position than there has been in the past. This upcoming rookie crop of QBs is being talked about as being very good and if so, perhaps more talent becomes available in the league as a result of that.
The NFL has lost some great starters in recent years and some of the new guard has not lived up to expectations. Some of the good QBs careers have been shortened by injury or retirement, such as Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin and so on.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I just wanted to add that there used to be fewer teams in the league before expansion, and so there were more QBs to go around back then than what we have today.
TampaMike19
Footballguy
Allow holding and you’ll see many qbs improve lol
TheWinz
Footballguy
Not only has the league expanded to 32 teams, but I dare say being a QB today is harder than in year's past. If you could put Mahomes in a time capsule and send him back to 1980, would he be a top QB? Yes, of course he would. But would Dan Fouts be a top QB in today's NFL? Even as a Chargers homer, the answer is no.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree it was a different game back then.
Defenses could do a lot more than they can now to disrupt and punish recievers than they can now.
QBs didn't need to be as good because teams relied a lot less on the passing game as they do now.
Players like Fouts kind of took teams by surprise as defenses were not built to stop that as much as they are now.
Eta - there is a lot more skill and finesse in today's passing game.
The Vikings were a passing team even from their beginnings, but you listen to Jerry Burns talk about plays and he is like, squadron left, squadron right, some damn thing. It's not as intricate as the passing game now.
Defenses could do more violent things to QBs than they can now, which made having a goof back up QB more of a necessity.
I remember another duo from back then. Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler. I do think teams had more back up QBs who were closer in skill level back then than the do today. But the starters maybe were not distancing themselves from the back ups in skill level as they are now, because so much more is required of them besides being tough, having an arm and being able to see over the linemen.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Somehow it feels like using the word “passing” in this topic is wrong.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Nailed it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Russ reportedly dropped about 20 lbs, which made a massive difference in his ability to scramble & buy a little time with his legs.
He’s still not vintage Russ, but he has a little escapability this year where he had none last year.
Hackett was part of Russ’s problem, sure, but also Russ was part of Russ’s problem.
ratbast
Footballguy
This is my solution for RB contracts.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Might as well go no cap if you’re not counting QB. But I’m on board with RB contracts including guarantees not counting IF the RB was cut.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Is it though? Given the rules that have been enacted to protect the QB and receivers, it seems easier than in previous years. They might be expected to be better and do more, but that’s largely because the best QBs do more.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Sure, years ago the defense was able to hurt the QB more. I am not denying that at all. Try this mental exercise - swap 1980 Jaworski and 2018 Mahomes. I chose them because both QB's made the Pro Bowl and both teams finished 12-4. Would both teams still finish 12-4?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That’s off-set a little by the push-out rule changing.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I have no idea. But I’d think Jaws would be fine today.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
It looks to me that, in general, league wide the defenses are simply populated with more talented players than offenses.
Are there more than a couple offensive line units in the entire league you'd even consider good?
Are there more than a couple offensive line units in the entire league you'd even consider good?
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm making a big effort not to post outside of the WSIS thread but, after a few beers, I need to point out the nature of your comparison is faulty.
To even attempt to make it valid we would need Mahomes to have been born in 1951 with all the implications of diet, training practices, off season schedules not to mention the fact that Mahomes has never had to deal with throwing into the type of windows necessary when your receivers are getting mugged and blasted on every play.
And Jaws would have the benefit of being born in 1991 with all the additional knowledge about nutrition, training, off season schedules and receivers running wide open (from his perspective) on every play.
Frankly just the way receivers are treated today vs 1980 may give Jaws an advantage over Mahomes. 2023 would be Christmas in September for a QB used to playing in the 70s-80s. Throw in everything else and there are plenty of former greats who would excel in today's game.
I'll hang up and listen now.
Boston
Footballguy
x100
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think there is some truth to that. The rules have favored the QBs and WRs more than they used to.
At the same time defenses have adapted to this. Nickle defense is the main personnel grouping now with some dime and cover 7 thrown in, whereas before defenses didn't have as many players in coverage and LBers were much heavier and slower than they are today. They were geared to stop the run and take on blocks more than they do in today's NFL where they need to be able to cover more.
So while they can't hold receivers as much as they used to be able to do there are more coverage capable defenders now making these throwing window tighter than they once were.
I think that balances out somewhat but the advantage to the passing game is still more favorable than it used to be I think. As evidenced by the higher passing numbers now compared to what used to be the norm.
I still think this puts a higher onus on QB skill now than it used to be. More abticipatory throws are required now than I think there used to be, because there are more defenders in coverage.
While defenders could hold and make contact more in the past, sometimes they would lose, the receivers could push off more as well, and with fewer defenders back in coverage I think receivers were wide open more often when they won that battle and so easier throws for the QBs.
We have seen a shift in the types of receivers who are successful in the NFL today compared to decades ago where WR had to be able to win through contract more and so be bigger and stronger as a part of that compared to today.
So it's a different kind of skillet that QBs need to have now compared to in the past I think. They need to be smarter and able to read more complicated coverages vs more defenders now than they used to. There are fewer instances of their receivers just winning their routes with no other defenders near to try to make up for that and defend the play.
The players are faster now on both sides of the ball so the margin for error is smaller on these throws.
This is why I describe it as more skill and finesse than I think it used to be. QBs have a lot more to process as far as traffic in their throwing lanes, timing and accuracy is more important than it used to be.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Well, maybe factor in EVERYTHING is much faster nowadays, so QBs need to process much faster
