What Are We Seeing? (1 Viewer)

[Chaka]

being a QB today is harder than in year's past.

Is it though? Given the rules that have been enacted to protect the QB and receivers, it seems easier than in previous years. They might be expected to be better and do more, but that’s largely because the best QBs do more.

Sure, years ago the defense was able to hurt the QB more. I am not denying that at all. Try this mental exercise - swap 1980 Jaworski and 2018 Mahomes. I chose them because both QB's made the Pro Bowl and both teams finished 12-4. Would both teams still finish 12-4?

I'm making a big effort not to post outside of the WSIS thread but, after a few beers, I need to point out the nature of your comparison is faulty.

To even attempt to make it valid we would need Mahomes to have been born in 1951 with all the implications of diet, training practices, off season schedules not to mention the fact that Mahomes has never had to deal with throwing into the type of windows necessary when your receivers are getting mugged and blasted on every play.

And Jaws would have the benefit of being born in 1991 with all the additional knowledge about nutrition, training, off season schedules and receivers running wide open (from his perspective) on every play.

Frankly just the way receivers are treated today vs 1980 may give Jaws an advantage over Mahomes. 2023 would be Christmas in September for a QB used to playing in the 70s-80s. Throw in everything else and there are plenty of former greats who would excel in today's game.

I'll hang up and listen now.

Well, maybe factor in EVERYTHING is much faster nowadays, so QBs need to process much faster

If Mahomes was born in 1951, like Jaws, he wouldn't be processing the same way as being born in 1991. Vice-versa for Jaws.

If the premise is simply A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, then whatever. Save it for a Marvel movie. If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

 

[-OZ-]

If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

Right. These things are always entirely speculative and just academic arguments. Similar to asking what would have happened if a player was drafted by a different team. Yet, they’re among the most common arguments. “Who was better, Jim Brown or Barry or CMC?”

 

[ChiefD]

Defenses are getting leaner and faster while offensive lines are getting bigger, fatter, and slower. We are just in a seismic shift right now.

Offenses need to shift to short drops, quick passes, and even more motion and deception. AND, start running the ball more.
Defenses have caught up to the spread.

 

[Chaka]

If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

Right. These things are always entirely speculative and just academic arguments. Similar to asking what would have happened if a player was drafted by a different team. Yet, they’re among the most common arguments. “Who was better, Jim Brown or Barry or CMC?”

Truth

 

[ghostguy123]

being a QB today is harder than in year's past.

Is it though? Given the rules that have been enacted to protect the QB and receivers, it seems easier than in previous years. They might be expected to be better and do more, but that’s largely because the best QBs do more.

Sure, years ago the defense was able to hurt the QB more. I am not denying that at all. Try this mental exercise - swap 1980 Jaworski and 2018 Mahomes. I chose them because both QB's made the Pro Bowl and both teams finished 12-4. Would both teams still finish 12-4?

I'm making a big effort not to post outside of the WSIS thread but, after a few beers, I need to point out the nature of your comparison is faulty.

To even attempt to make it valid we would need Mahomes to have been born in 1951 with all the implications of diet, training practices, off season schedules not to mention the fact that Mahomes has never had to deal with throwing into the type of windows necessary when your receivers are getting mugged and blasted on every play.

And Jaws would have the benefit of being born in 1991 with all the additional knowledge about nutrition, training, off season schedules and receivers running wide open (from his perspective) on every play.

Frankly just the way receivers are treated today vs 1980 may give Jaws an advantage over Mahomes. 2023 would be Christmas in September for a QB used to playing in the 70s-80s. Throw in everything else and there are plenty of former greats who would excel in today's game.

I'll hang up and listen now.

Well, maybe factor in EVERYTHING is much faster nowadays, so QBs need to process much faster

If Mahomes was born in 1951, like Jaws, he wouldn't be processing the same way as being born in 1991. Vice-versa for Jaws.

If the premise is simply A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, then whatever. Save it for a Marvel movie. If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

Those guys are inferior to today's players on average (for the reasons being discussed).
Hence, the guys mahomes plays against are much better than the guys Jaws played against.
Mahomes is a super stud in today NFL and has been for years.
Was Jaws a super stud #1 QB in his era?

 

[Chaka]

being a QB today is harder than in year's past.

Is it though? Given the rules that have been enacted to protect the QB and receivers, it seems easier than in previous years. They might be expected to be better and do more, but that’s largely because the best QBs do more.

Sure, years ago the defense was able to hurt the QB more. I am not denying that at all. Try this mental exercise - swap 1980 Jaworski and 2018 Mahomes. I chose them because both QB's made the Pro Bowl and both teams finished 12-4. Would both teams still finish 12-4?

I'm making a big effort not to post outside of the WSIS thread but, after a few beers, I need to point out the nature of your comparison is faulty.

To even attempt to make it valid we would need Mahomes to have been born in 1951 with all the implications of diet, training practices, off season schedules not to mention the fact that Mahomes has never had to deal with throwing into the type of windows necessary when your receivers are getting mugged and blasted on every play.

And Jaws would have the benefit of being born in 1991 with all the additional knowledge about nutrition, training, off season schedules and receivers running wide open (from his perspective) on every play.

Frankly just the way receivers are treated today vs 1980 may give Jaws an advantage over Mahomes. 2023 would be Christmas in September for a QB used to playing in the 70s-80s. Throw in everything else and there are plenty of former greats who would excel in today's game.

I'll hang up and listen now.

Well, maybe factor in EVERYTHING is much faster nowadays, so QBs need to process much faster

If Mahomes was born in 1951, like Jaws, he wouldn't be processing the same way as being born in 1991. Vice-versa for Jaws.

If the premise is simply A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, then whatever. Save it for a Marvel movie. If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

Those guys are inferior to today's players on average (for the reasons being discussed).
Hence, the guys mahomes plays against are much better than the guys Jaws played against.
Mahomes is a super stud in today NFL and has been for years.
Was Jaws a super stud #1 QB in his era?

Jaws is an arbitrary data point. It could be Unitas, Namath, Fouts, Marino etc. The basic premise necessitates limiting the noise. If you want to drop "born in 1951 Jaws" into the 2023 Chiefs offense; okay. Pretty sure Mahomes would struggle with the Tuze earholing him three seconds after the release. It's also about as relevant as the plot to Marvel movie.

If you want to try and compare a player from 1980 to one from 2023 you need level the playing field. I.E. same nutrition, same training schedule, same off season program same opposition schemes, same number of games played etc.

I'm already way too far beyond what I want my future on this board the be but, as a geneticist by training the "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" logic is infuriating.

I have to bow out. Love you all, sincerely and with all my heart. This board is a great joy in my life. I'll be in the WSIS thread if you need me.

 

[ghostguy123]

being a QB today is harder than in year's past.

Is it though? Given the rules that have been enacted to protect the QB and receivers, it seems easier than in previous years. They might be expected to be better and do more, but that’s largely because the best QBs do more.

Sure, years ago the defense was able to hurt the QB more. I am not denying that at all. Try this mental exercise - swap 1980 Jaworski and 2018 Mahomes. I chose them because both QB's made the Pro Bowl and both teams finished 12-4. Would both teams still finish 12-4?

I'm making a big effort not to post outside of the WSIS thread but, after a few beers, I need to point out the nature of your comparison is faulty.

To even attempt to make it valid we would need Mahomes to have been born in 1951 with all the implications of diet, training practices, off season schedules not to mention the fact that Mahomes has never had to deal with throwing into the type of windows necessary when your receivers are getting mugged and blasted on every play.

And Jaws would have the benefit of being born in 1991 with all the additional knowledge about nutrition, training, off season schedules and receivers running wide open (from his perspective) on every play.

Frankly just the way receivers are treated today vs 1980 may give Jaws an advantage over Mahomes. 2023 would be Christmas in September for a QB used to playing in the 70s-80s. Throw in everything else and there are plenty of former greats who would excel in today's game.

I'll hang up and listen now.

Well, maybe factor in EVERYTHING is much faster nowadays, so QBs need to process much faster

If Mahomes was born in 1951, like Jaws, he wouldn't be processing the same way as being born in 1991. Vice-versa for Jaws.

If the premise is simply A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, then whatever. Save it for a Marvel movie. If it's trying to compare players from different eras we need to view it from much broader perspective.

Those guys are inferior to today's players on average (for the reasons being discussed).
Hence, the guys mahomes plays against are much better than the guys Jaws played against.
Mahomes is a super stud in today NFL and has been for years.
Was Jaws a super stud #1 QB in his era?

Jaws is an arbitrary data point. It could be Unitas, Namath, Fouts, Marino etc. The basic premise necessitates limiting the noise. If you want to drop "born in 1951 Jaws" into the 2023 Chiefs offense; okay. Pretty sure Mahomes would struggle with the Tuze earholing him three seconds after the release. It's also about as relevant as the plot to Marvel movie.

If you want to try and compare a player from 1980 to one from 2023 you need level the playing field. I.E. same nutrition, same training schedule, same off season program same opposition schemes, same number of games played etc.

I'm already way too far beyond what I want my future on this board the be but, as a geneticist by training the "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" logic is infuriating.

I have to bow out. Love you all, sincerely and with all my heart. This board is a great joy in my life. I'll be in the WSIS thread if you need me.

What in blazes are you talking about? I'm just bringing up a couple points. I don't have time to write the 400 pages necessary for a full explanation of my thoughts.

 

[Chaka]

What in blazes are you talking about?

I'm talking about this

Those guys are inferior to today's players on average

It's flawed logic. No need for 400 pages.

 

[Todem]

I think the 2010 Panthers offense was worse. Probably the 2018 Cardinals as well.

Those teams were the Greatest Show on Turf compared to the games Curtis Painter started for the 2011 Colts.

Yes, worst backup QB in history

I will see your Painter with Ray Lucas circa Dolphins backup.

 

[TheWinz]

This thread took a turn...

 

[Biabreakable]

The other thing about 1980s football that was different than today's football was the personnel and formations used back then compared to now.

Back then most teams ran 2 RB sets with only 2 WR on the field. They would only bring on a 3rd or 4th WR on 3rd and long

When I first started watching football in the 80s there was a lot of talk about the run and shoot or run and gun, because it was a completely new thing to the NFL back then. Only a few teams ran 3 or 4 WR frequently back then with a single RB.

The Lions with Barry Sanders were one of those teams and the Houston Oilers with Warren Moon was another one. The Bills did it somewhat with what they called the K gun with Jim Kelly, although they ran plenty of formations with a fullback in as well, it wasn't all the time. I think the Falcons ran some run and shoot too.

Almost every other team ran what they called pro set offense with 2 RB either in the I formation or split to each side of the QB.

So with only 2 WR on the field, it simplifies a QBs reads a lot compared to what we have today where 3 WR formation is the most common.

Not many teams had TE who were great recievers either. Some of the teams that did had a bit of a mismatch advantage because of that. They could run a traditional formation defenses were used to but actually have a 3rd receiving threat.

This is why Kellen Winslow is so famous. He was one of the first real mismatch TE receiving threats, which did give Dan Fouts an advantage compared to other teams. They actually passed the ball more than they ran it on purpose!

This was before my time a bit so forgive me if I am wrong about this, but I have read things about those Charger teams revolutionizing NFL offenses and the Don Coryell or air Coryell being the start of a whole coaching tree across the NFL.

Anyhow I would say Fouts benefitted from a scheme advantage that the rest of the NFL wasn't prepared for. It revolutionized the game and it took many years for the rest of the NFL to copy and implement what they did and just as long or longer for defenses to figure out how to handle it.

And this offense was not even as wide open as the run and shoot spread offenses that came after it.

There isn't much question in my mind that today's offenses are even more complex and difficult for a QB to run by comparison.

Eta - It cracked me up when I was reading about Don Coryell and that in 1978 the Chargers actually threw for over 3000 yards!! lol

 

[The Future Champs]

The NFL should allow teams to have a backup QB that counts at like 50% towards the cap.

If they want their product to now be complete dog crap, like it is for many teams this season, it makes sense.

The next thing you'd see after this rule change is a lot of position designation changes, and Jefferson, Watt, Parsons et al taking snaps in garbage time to affirm their backup QB status. Plus, you'd see stunts like KC putting Blaine Gabbert at the top of their depth chart, and then Gabbert would spend the year hovering near the IR designation, with backup Mahomes getting the start week after week.

Actually, it'd be kinda awesome to see Aaron Donald under center running a QB sneak.

 

[Soulfly3]

The NFL should allow teams to have a backup QB that counts at like 50% towards the cap.

If they want their product to now be complete dog crap, like it is for many teams this season, it makes sense.

The next thing you'd see after this rule change is a lot of position designation changes, and Jefferson, Watt, Parsons et al taking snaps in garbage time to affirm their backup QB status. Plus, you'd see stunts like KC putting Blaine Gabbert at the top of their depth chart, and then Gabbert would spend the year hovering near the IR designation, with backup Mahomes getting the start week after week.

Actually, it'd be kinda awesome to see Aaron Donald under center running a QB sneak.

Ya, I mean there'd obviously have to be caveats to the designation. Like a max salary of 8M/yr or something (so 4M towards the cap) something to that effect. I mean, that right there would stop all the tomfoolery. If you benefit from the reduction, the player cannot lineup at any other position during the season... crap like that

 

[pollardsvision]

They knew Zach Wilson wasn't the answer, so they went out and got Aaron Rodgers. When your star QB goes out just a few snaps into the season, it's hard to recover. They are top 10 in rushing yards per attempt, but when you're 31st in scoring, you can't afford to feed Breece Hall, so they are last in rushing attempts. Quite frankly, I am shocked there are 7 teams with worse records. I bet many teams would look just as bad or worse if they lost their star QB.

The other problem was they spent a TON of money bringing Rodgers Packer buddies in. This includes Mr dropsies Lazard. Their receiving crew outside of Wilson is horrendous and their offensive line is in shambles. That's where they should've spent their money.

Is Rodgers also the reason they brought in Boyle?

I heard that somewhere, but have no idea if it's true. It would make sense, because I can't think of any other reason an NFL team would bring Boyle in.

 

[ghostguy123]

What in blazes are you talking about?

I'm talking about this

Those guys are inferior to today's players on average

It's flawed logic. No need for 400 pages.

Did you not read any part of WHY?ugh, nevermind