What is your definition of elite? (1 Viewer)

[AnonymousBob]

I've seen a lot of posters say player x is elite but I'm not sure what that truly means. I'm pretty sure there is no universal definition but I'm curious to see what everyone considers it to be.

Is it combine numbers? Where they were drafted? College reputation? Statistics as a whole or in comparision to their peers?

How many years removed from college does someone have to be before you stop referring to their pre-pro career?

 

[mjohnell]

I think of elite as the top tier in a position. For example, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are elite QB's. LT is an elite RB. TO and Randy Moss are elite WR's. Sometimes its 2-3 players and sometimes its just one if he distinguishes himself so much as to be in his own tier. That's just my opinion and I'm sure there are a slew of differing ones.

 

[KoolKat]

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: elite

Pronunciation: \ā-ˈlēt, i-, ē-\

1 the socially superior part of society : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence : a member of such an elite —usually used in plural

These are the pertinent definitions. If we are to correlate this to the NFL, we can say that mjohnell's post is pretty close, if not totally accurate. The only fallacy I can see is that elite can be just one guy. I think this concept does not follow from the definition. Elite is used to describe the a class of people, not a single person. For example, Louis XIV was above all other aristocrats, but that does not mean those directly below him were not elite. Likewise, Antonio Gates may be the best TE by far, but that does not mean Dallas Clark is not elite. Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group.

Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

 

[gianmarco]

Josef Addai

just kidding

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I've seen a lot of posters say player x is elite but I'm not sure what that truly means. I'm pretty sure there is no universal definition but I'm curious to see what everyone considers it to be.

Is it combine numbers? Where they were drafted? College reputation? Statistics as a whole or in comparision to their peers?

How many years removed from college does someone have to be before you stop referring to their pre-pro career?

After their rookie year for me. During their rookie year, I can see talking about what they did in college, but after that they're pros unless you're specifically talking about a college related question.I'm done talking about Calvin Johnson's career at Georgia Tech....he's mixed in the same bag as Holmes, Bowe, Donald Driver, whomever.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

Yes, this is a spinoff of the Addai thread but I'd like to keep it on more of a global level but to do that we'd need to start comparing individual players so who knows where this thread will drift to...mjohnell, what makes Brady/Manning elite? Did Brady just enter elite after this last season or was he elite before? Wins? Touchdowns? Passer rating? Completion percentage? Rings? Popularity on ESPN?Is David Garrard now elite? He finished the season with a 102+ rating. Only two other qb's finished with a 100 rating. One of three guys out of fortyone qb's with a minimum of fifty pass attempts.

 

[switz]

I've seen a lot of posters say player x is elite but I'm not sure what that truly means. I'm pretty sure there is no universal definition but I'm curious to see what everyone considers it to be.Is it combine numbers? Where they were drafted? College reputation? Statistics as a whole or in comparision to their peers? How many years removed from college does someone have to be before you stop referring to their pre-pro career?

I think the problem here is that "elite" can cover multiple categories...Are we talking 'elite' in the NFL for a given season, or even an era? Are we talking elite in terms of FF production? Are we talking elite in terms of NFL history overall?For instance, I don't think ANYONE would argue that Jim Brown is one of the elite backs in NFL history. And while there may be some argument, I'm pretty sure most would agree that today, Jim Brown in not elite among current NFL backs. Nor is he elite in terms of FF productivity.Then we have elite talent... which is extremely difficult to prove. I would guess most people thought Reggie Bush when entering the pros was an elite talent. But is he an elite NFL RB? That is something entirely different.I believe that there are some elite NFL RBs that may not be elite FF producers. On the other hand, I think it is very difficult to be an elite FF producer without being an elite talent. And historical evidence supports that point of view.

 

[gianmarco]

santana moss?

 

[switz]

santana moss?

Hmmm... first round pick, 2x All Pro, one Pro Bowl. Has had health problems, and terrible QB play to contend with.

 

[JPeso]

Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group. Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

I don't agree that Addai is vastly better than the majority of starting RBs.

 

[KoolKat]

Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group. Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

I don't agree that Addai is vastly better than the majority of starting RBs.

Remember, we are talking about elite FANTASY rbs. Situation has a lot to do with elite fantasy production.

 

[JPeso]

Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group. Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

I don't agree that Addai is vastly better than the majority of starting RBs.

Remember, we are talking about elite FANTASY rbs. Situation has a lot to do with elite fantasy production.

Only if he maintains that situation. I don't expect him to be alone in the backfield moving forward.

 

[Wildman]

In fantasy football terms I see "elite" as the top 2 RBs, QBs, and TEs, and the top 5 WRs...

 

[KoolKat]

Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group. Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

I don't agree that Addai is vastly better than the majority of starting RBs.

Remember, we are talking about elite FANTASY rbs. Situation has a lot to do with elite fantasy production.

Only if he maintains that situation. I don't expect him to be alone in the backfield moving forward.

Based on what? Switz has repeatedly, empirically shown that this concept is a fallacy. Addai averaged 20 touches per game last year. Assume he did not get injured. We can then pro-rate his touches to say he would have had at least had 321+ touches last year. Add in the fact he was limited in the games directly following his return from injury, and I think it is fair to give him at least 20 more pro-rated touches. Therefore, in a completely healthy season, it is reasonable to think Addai could, at the very least, get 340+touches. That does not look like a RBBC to me. This is where our fantasy football strategies come into conflict. I use the three year window, especially with RBs. The fact that Addai is locked up in his current situation through 2010, makes me not too worried about whether he will change situations when his contract is up. Obviously, you do not subscribe to this strategy since you are looking more than three years in the future. So, we must agree to disagree. However, as it stands now, without alterations in his situation, Addai is an elite fantasy RB. Unless the Colts go out and sign a quality RB, or draft one very high, I do not believe there is any reason to believe Addai will not be alone in the Colts' backfield for the next three seasons.

 

[kerpow]

In my mind, elite not only means that the player will have very high production, they are also considered very reliable.

I don't bandy the term around RB's too often because things can change so quickly. Elite RB's? ADP, LT, SJax, Addai, Westbrook. Thats it.

Is Elite the same as Stud?

 

[gianmarco]

santana moss?

Hmmm... first round pick, 2x All Pro, one Pro Bowl. Has had health problems, and terrible QB play to contend with.

One All-Pro was as a kick returner. The other was during his career year. The rest.......not very good. Nor would I consider him an elite talent compared to other WR's in the league. If you do, then we have completely different definitions of elite. I guess for me, elite also means a certain level of consistency. In terms of actual production, especially in fantasy terms, it takes more than 1 or 2 good years. In terms of talent, that's more by what we see on the field along with the numbers. An example of that is A. Johnson. I think it would be hard to argue he isn't one of the top 3-5 talents at the WR position in the league even though his #'s don't bear that out exactly. I would call him an elite talent but not necessarily an elite fantasy WR (yet). And I have him ranked as the #3 dynasty WR.Same goes for ADP. You don't need 3 yrs to see that he's an elite talent. We saw it already. Whether he continues as an elite fantasy producer remains to be seen as 1 year isn't enough to say it's a given. His injury history could definitely be a concern (although it's not for me). But, I do not agree that someone that has put up "elite" fantasy #'s is definitely an elite talent. There are plenty of 1 or 2 yr wonders that then fade away. Santana Moss is an example of that for me. There are others.

 

[switz]

Therefore, to answer the question of the OP, elite (as used for the NFL) is an adjective used to describe those who are vastly better than the majority of a group. Since, this is obviously a spin-off of the Addai thread, I would like to add that Addai fits this adjective nearly perfectly.

I don't agree that Addai is vastly better than the majority of starting RBs.

Remember, we are talking about elite FANTASY rbs. Situation has a lot to do with elite fantasy production.

Only if he maintains that situation. I don't expect him to be alone in the backfield moving forward.

This hijack can probably be moved to the Addai thread.

 

[switz]

santana moss?

Hmmm... first round pick, 2x All Pro, one Pro Bowl. Has had health problems, and terrible QB play to contend with.

One All-Pro was as a kick returner. The other was during his career year. The rest.......not very good. Nor would I consider him an elite talent compared to other WR's in the league. If you do, then we have completely different definitions of elite.

And KR is probably the most difficult place to make an impact if you're not an elite talent. Look at the guys who make impacts as KRs, they all have great speed, great moves, great vision... To attempt to use his success as a KR as a negative simply doesn't work.

I guess for me, elite also means a certain level of consistency. In terms of actual production, especially in fantasy terms, it takes more than 1 or 2 good years. In terms of talent, that's more by what we see on the field along with the numbers. An example of that is A. Johnson. I think it would be hard to argue he isn't one of the top 3-5 talents at the WR position in the league even though his #'s don't bear that out exactly. I would call him an elite talent but not necessarily an elite fantasy WR (yet). And I have him ranked as the #3 dynasty WR.

Wait... elite means consistency, but then you say AJohnson is an elite talent? Come on... you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth now. As I had already stated, there are elite talents that due to situation will not post elite numbers. And, yes I see you are also arguing, as did I, that one can be elite in one area, but not necessarily another. You see Johnson as an elite talent at WR which is why you have him ranked #3, there's no other way around it. If you are going to rank a guy in your top-5 for dynasty then you have to believe they have elite talent.

Same goes for ADP. You don't need 3 yrs to see that he's an elite talent. We saw it already. Whether he continues as an elite fantasy producer remains to be seen as 1 year isn't enough to say it's a given. His injury history could definitely be a concern (although it's not for me).

ADP has elite talent in some areas, as a runner specifically. But is he an elite RB? There is more to being an RB than just running.

But, I do not agree that someone that has put up "elite" fantasy #'s is definitely an elite talent. There are plenty of 1 or 2 yr wonders that then fade away. Santana Moss is an example of that for me. There are others.

I think you're wrong there. If you look at most of the guys that "fade away" it's largely due to injury, or situation change. That doesn't impact their talent, it just impacts their ability to display their talent.

 

[switz]

In my mind, elite not only means that the player will have very high production, they are also considered very reliable. I don't bandy the term around RB's too often because things can change so quickly. Elite RB's? ADP, LT, SJax, Addai, Westbrook. Thats it.Is Elite the same as Stud?

 

[Jedimaster21]

An elite player is a top five player at his position.

An elite talent is someone that amazes you at least once every time you watch them. I guess you can also factor in dominance at every level, a top 10 pick in the draft, universally accepted as one of the best by all the scouts, and a player who brings something to the table that cannot be taught.

 

[Jedimaster21]

On a side note, Addai doesn't come close to meeting these criteria.

 

[AnonymousBob]

An elite player is a top five player at his position. An elite talent is someone that amazes you at least once every time you watch them. I guess you can also factor in dominance at every level, a top 10 pick in the draft, universally accepted as one of the best by all the scouts, and a player who brings something to the table that cannot be taught.

Let's try to focus this discussion to elite in regards to fantasy production as really that's all most of us care about. I realize I was too vague before.Let's look at the top five at qb, rb and wr from last season.Tom BradyTony RomoPeyton ManningDreww BreesDerek AndersonLTWestbrookADPPortisAddaiRandy MossTOBraylonReggie WayneFitzgeraldBy your own description, all fifteen of those players are elite.

 

[Jedimaster21]

An elite player is a top five player at his position. An elite talent is someone that amazes you at least once every time you watch them. I guess you can also factor in dominance at every level, a top 10 pick in the draft, universally accepted as one of the best by all the scouts, and a player who brings something to the table that cannot be taught.

Let's try to focus this discussion to elite in regards to fantasy production as really that's all most of us care about. I realize I was too vague before.Let's look at the top five at qb, rb and wr from last season.Tom BradyTony RomoPeyton ManningDreww BreesDerek AndersonLTWestbrookADPPortisAddaiRandy MossTOBraylonReggie WayneFitzgeraldBy your own description, all fifteen of those players are elite.

"Top 5 at his position" doesn't necessarily mean "top 5 in fantasy points last year at his position". IMO, you have to factor in both of my points above when determining an elite player.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Jedimaster21, so if someone wasn't drafted in the top 10 that hurts their chances of being elite?

I'm trying to make the definition more objective than subjective and I'm just trying to clarify.

 

[Jedimaster21]

Jedimaster21, so if someone wasn't drafted in the top 10 that hurts their chances of being elite? I'm trying to make the definition more objective than subjective and I'm just trying to clarify.

Not necessarily. The top 10 thing is pretty arbitrary, but usually elite talents are picked pretty early.

 

[Jedimaster21]

I'll change my definition slightly in response to your questions. An elite player is a player that has finished top 5 in fantasy scoring for at least 3 seasons, or a player that has the potential to finish in the top 5 in fantasy scoring for 3 seasons. The projecting portion is the hard part.

 

[switz]

"Top 5 at his position" doesn't necessarily mean "top 5 in fantasy points last year at his position". IMO, you have to factor in both of my points above when determining an elite player.

Hmmmm.... sounds to me like you really don't have a set means to determine what is elite. As when it comes down to any specific means to determine elite, you disagree that it is a form of evidence.How would you determine top-5 at his position???YPC, total yards, attempts, TDs are all products of the RB PLUS the OL PLUS the offensive scheme. So it's difficult to use those statistics, out of context, as evidence. And while it probably is statistically possible to evaluate the strength of an OL, it would be difficult to come up with anything other than an arbitrary modifier to represent the OLs influence on the RBs stats. As for offensive scheme, it would be nearly impossible to determine a reasonable representation of what influence that plays on an RBs production.If you use combine results, or draft position, I don't think it will result in the conclusion you want to see. Yet those are the most reliable means to determine a players natural talent. Now that does not mean that a players talent will result in tremendous production in the NFL. But it does represent talent in its rawest measurement.

 

[Jedimaster21]

"Top 5 at his position" doesn't necessarily mean "top 5 in fantasy points last year at his position". IMO, you have to factor in both of my points above when determining an elite player.

Hmmmm.... sounds to me like you really don't have a set means to determine what is elite. As when it comes down to any specific means to determine elite, you disagree that it is a form of evidence.How would you determine top-5 at his position???

YPC, total yards, attempts, TDs are all products of the RB PLUS the OL PLUS the offensive scheme. So it's difficult to use those statistics, out of context, as evidence. And while it probably is statistically possible to evaluate the strength of an OL, it would be difficult to come up with anything other than an arbitrary modifier to represent the OLs influence on the RBs stats. As for offensive scheme, it would be nearly impossible to determine a reasonable representation of what influence that plays on an RBs production.

If you use combine results, or draft position, I don't think it will result in the conclusion you want to see. Yet those are the most reliable means to determine a players natural talent. Now that does not mean that a players talent will result in tremendous production in the NFL. But it does represent talent in its rawest measurement.

That is a good point. I don't really have a set method of determining who is "elite", but it is definitely a black and white situation when I think about whether a player is elite or not. I think it depends on many factors, and I tried the best I could to explain how I come to the conclusion that a player is elite. It IS based on production and fantasy points, but I also think that you need to watch a player and see the level of dominance he shows on a regular basis.

 

[switz]

That is a good point. I don't really have a set method of determining who is "elite", but it is definitely a black and white situation when I think about whether a player is elite or not. I think it depends on many factors, and I tried the best I could to explain how I come to the conclusion that a player is elite. It IS based on production and fantasy points, but I also think that you need to watch a player and see the level of dominance he shows on a regular basis.

I have to say, as much as Jm21 & I disagree about a lot... this is probably the BEST answer in this thread.Reality is, as much as we use stats when discussing the GOAT, etc. there is no real way to PROVE who is the best, elite, etc. And much of it does come down to what we SEE, and the impression we take from that.

 

[The Man with the Plan]

I think that elite fantasy players are guys that have great seasons year in and year out. We've seen lots of players have one great year and then fall off but it's the guys who can do it over multiple seasons that I would consider elite.

So for me the elite fantasy players would be:

QB

Manning

Brees

Brady

Palmer

RB

Westbrook

Tomlinson

Portis

WR

Moss

Owens

Fitzgerald

Johnson

Holt

Boldin

Smith

Wayne

TE

Gates

Gonzalez

Witten

Guys who consistently have good-great seasons. Those are who I consider the elite.

 

[KoolKat]

That is a good point. I don't really have a set method of determining who is "elite", but it is definitely a black and white situation when I think about whether a player is elite or not. I think it depends on many factors, and I tried the best I could to explain how I come to the conclusion that a player is elite. It IS based on production and fantasy points, but I also think that you need to watch a player and see the level of dominance he shows on a regular basis.

I have to say, as much as Jm21 & I disagree about a lot... this is probably the BEST answer in this thread.Reality is, as much as we use stats when discussing the GOAT, etc. there is no real way to PROVE who is the best, elite, etc. And much of it does come down to what we SEE, and the impression we take from that.

This is why Bo Jackson is the most talented RB of all-time in my opinion.However, I think that more weight should be put on stats than what we observe. The reason I think this is because stats are a concrete measure of someone's success, whereas eyewitness testimony is unreliable, often inaccurate, and subjective.

 

[switz]

That is a good point. I don't really have a set method of determining who is "elite", but it is definitely a black and white situation when I think about whether a player is elite or not. I think it depends on many factors, and I tried the best I could to explain how I come to the conclusion that a player is elite. It IS based on production and fantasy points, but I also think that you need to watch a player and see the level of dominance he shows on a regular basis.

I have to say, as much as Jm21 & I disagree about a lot... this is probably the BEST answer in this thread.Reality is, as much as we use stats when discussing the GOAT, etc. there is no real way to PROVE who is the best, elite, etc. And much of it does come down to what we SEE, and the impression we take from that.

This is why Bo Jackson is the most talented RB of all-time in my opinion.However, I think that more weight should be put on stats than what we observe. The reason I think this is because stats are a concrete measure of someone's success, whereas eyewitness testimony is unreliable, often inaccurate, and subjective.

I agree with this as well. My point was that, what we see may give us an impression, that no matter what stats are presented, often goes unchanged. Sometimes we even refuse to believe our eyes, if what we see doesn't fit the conclusion we've come to about a player.And, the problem with stats, is taken alone or out of the context of the situations in which they were produced, they give a very inaccurate picture of the players true ability.