sholditch said:
I really don't get the Jonathan Stewart over DMC talk that seems to be all over the fantasy community. IS there anything, any real, logical argument, to back this up, other than Stewart being a bit bigger? DMC's college stats are way better than Stewart's, he isn't coming off an injury, his college conference was way tougher defensively, the team he's going to was sixth in rushing last year while Stewart's was 14th, so where is this coming from? Gut feeling?
Some of my takes on McFadden from past posts in February, which I believe are fairly logical. The first is a discussion of a YouTube highlight mentioned as a reason why McFadden is worth his hype. This is my response from watching the tape
don't know, I checked the youtube highlights and what I saw there were very straight-forward holes where he didn't have to do anything but go straight. He didn't have to wait for the blocker to engage. He didn't have to take smaller steps or make a lateral move from one gap to the other behind the LOS to hit the open crease and he didn't have to make a cut or move in the hole to exploit another lane. Those plays aren't there. You know why? Because when he had to do those things he either:
a) Ran straight into a defender or lineman and fell down.
b) Got wrapped up and didn't get yardage after contact
c) Tried to bounce it outside and was dragged down behind the LOS.
I did not see one run that I"m talking about on YouTube highlights for McFadden. I don't think we're on the same page in terms of what I'm describing. Look at those runs on You tube and the initial hole at the LOS is at least a half a yard to a yard wide on either side of him with second level blocking. What makes his runs great is that he has the speed to hit these second level creases past the LOS so fast that he turns a normal 10-12 yard run into a 40-50 yard score. All the credit in the world goes to McFadden for having that kind of speed. He's blessed in this way.
The problem is if he doesn't get (or see) the initial hole, he doesn't get as many of the 5-12 yard runs you'd see from a back with better vision to spot these holes, make a cut and explode through the crease. What I saw on film (and YouTube) were big holes--sometimes 3-4 yards in width with second level blocking. This happens maybe 3-4 times game in a competitive pro contest and a good RB exploits it 1-2 times.
QUOTE (Chaos Commish @ Feb 25 2008, 06:30 PM)
QUOTE (Jackie Treehorn @ Feb 25 2008, 06:05 PM)
Great links. A couple things stick out to me- McFadden was a better second half runner than Stewart. Given the knock on skinny legs and his aversion to contact...
Seriously, McFadden lives for contact. Any halfhearted scouting report discusses this. He is a violent runner. There's several falsities being tossed around about him, but this one needs to stop. Even Baldinger, in his scathing hit piece, discussed how Darren runs over defenders (atrributing it erroneously to bad vision and suggesting he'll get hurt though he's been way more durable than Stewart).
He loves contact, but is too capable to always engage.
2nd run is all patience and vision.
3rd run -- sick feet, by far the best lateral game in this class, by very very very very far. Stewart does not beat that guy and probably gets a few yards after contact. McFadden makes him miss and its off to the races.
4th run -- an aversion to contact. check the first down marker on that vicious run.
5th run -- waits waits, patient patient, set up the defense, set up the block, wham... gone!
7th run -- classic downhill cut and go between the tackles instincts.
The long speed is ridiculous, yet it takes three and four guys to get him down at times. The vision as good as it gets. The sense of timing and explosion, setting up blockers and reading defenses is on par with any back at any level. It's all just so natural some don't appreciate it in a skinny package.
Good some examples. I'm going to nitpick these, but that's what I do
2nd run--I'm not sure how you can judge patience and vision on a close up because from what I'm seeing here (if I'm picking the right run is a very well blocked play with plenty of room. Give me a play where there is no opening at the LOS as he receives the ball and has to press the hole, cut back to another gap with a quick decision and no dancing around, or showing patience with timing his burst as the contact is made by his blockers down field. It's a bit difficult to see from this angle that he has what you're saying he has here.
3rd run--this is a classic stutter move at full speed. It's nothing that special except for the fact he can do it his speed. Mendenhall can make these moves. So can Stewart. So can Matt Forte, Kevin Smith, and Jamaal Charles (who if he can hold onto the ball has IMO the best lateral moves you'll see in this class). I guess when I'm talking about a lateral move. I'm talking about a plant and cut where the RB takes a hard plant with one leg, stops very momentarily, and explodes in a different direction. Maroney is very good at this move. So was Edge in his heyday. LT and Emmitt Smith, too Stutter moves are very effective, but that's more of a juke than a lateral cut, IMO. I've watched Stewart make lateral cuts.
4th Run--I agree, I would never think McFadden has an aversion to contact, but this does fit into my example of a guy that tends to be more the bully in the 2nd and 3rd level of a defense with a running start of more than 5 yards. He had a 12-yard running start before taking on that LB. It was a nice play. I liked how he lowered his shoulders into the defender. He's excellent at maintaining balance with head-on collisions with a running start. I didn't see him do as well with indirect collisions to his legs, side, or from behind. A back like Corey Dillon was very good at bouncing off hits like these. Even MJD is good at this.
5th Run--toss sweep--again the angle is not great for the camera, but what I see is the backside getting completely blocked and a 5-7 yard alley except for the edge defender on the first offensive player in the foreground. This appears to me the equivalent of an open field run. Most backs have good open field vision against 1-2 defenders and can set up a run with moves. I'd like to see a play where he is in a tight space and has to show patience with blocks in traffic. I mean seriously, look at the guy in the foreground as McFadden passes him at the edge...that lane is at least 5-7 yards wide! It's an open field run. It's good patience in that way, but the type of patience you need for a sweep down field where the defensive line as spilled the play to the outside with good positioning against the linemen or each gap is filled and the RB has to show patience to stretch the play out before cutting back against the breakdown in the gap. Look at LJ or Holmes with KC's line from 2-3 years ago and you see patience of that sort on an outside run.
7th run--again, camera angle isn't great but holes look pretty wide. We're not going to see this very often in the NFL. This one I can't even judge based on the camera angle. Over the top angles show the hole line set up and what he's seeing ahead of him rather than what you see as a defender.
Like you said, speed is amazing and that makes him an SOB to bring down when he generates this momentum. Still, I just don't see anything here that has me feeling differently because I still think we're talking about different things when we say lateral movement, vision, and patience.
That's what makes grading with defined criteria very important with analysis of performance. We all know this from corporate style evaluations. You can take 5 people and have them evaluate an individual on a scale of 1-5 and you'll have debates about what constitutes a 1,2,3,4,and 5. Plus certain grading scales don't encompass enough factors to give a well-rounded observation.
Here's another on McFadden's running style
I think hip level-knee bend has something to do with what we might be talking about here.
Any type of power you generate when it comes to delivering or deflecting a blow comes from the legs and hips. Not only do they have to be strong, but they need to be positioned well to transfer energy from yourself to someone else. They explain this in more detail on shows that study the physics of martial arts--i.e., National Geographic's show where they hook up UFC fighters like Randy Couture to sensors that measure force and flow of energy throughout the body.
I know it seems a bit like a jump to apply this to a running back, but its not. Think about a runner heading through the line of scrimmage and they face a DT, LB, or DB greeting them head-on. If your hips are and knees are bent, your shoulders generally have to be leaning forward and a bit lower and you can explode into the contact and the energy transfers from your legs in the ground up your hips and to the point of contact with the defender. A great runner has learned (and by repetition and natural talent begins to intuitively understand) how to subtly change the angle of contact in close quarters while delivering enough of a blow to "shed" the tackle if not just knock guy on his butt. This is why a back like Eddie George who "ran too high" coming out of college actually was a good NFL player. He was taller than the average back, but he knew how to lower his shoulders and bend his knees and hips so more times than not he exploded into contact.
Same with Eric Dickerson. Most people remember his "upright" running style, but if you watch highlights that don't involve him running through creases untouched for 40-60 yards and looking like Carl Lewis in pads, you'll see a guy who could get low very quick and deliver a blow with his shoulders into contact. Adrian Peterson is capable of the same thing. I never once worried about his upright running style. The guy has monstrously great balance. When I first thought about comparisons to Peterson vs. McFadden I would watch how McFadden would get yanked out of bounds by the arm a hit to the hips, or a horse collar and see right away from the standpoint of balance Peterson is way different--he stayed in bounds on plays like this all the time (which is what is one of quite a few things special about his skills). But this also has to do with hip and leg alignment and strength.
When I see McFadden in the hole he gets yanked backwards more than many backs (even compared to 6-0, 200-lb Felix Smith) in the hole or knocked down on is butt from head-on hits because his knee bend and hip bend is just not there. How can you tell, look at his shoulders. A back like George or Dickerson often ran as if their shoulders were a big hand on a clock pointed to the number 2 or at worst between the number 1 and number 2. A back like McFadden is somewhere between the 12 and 1 and never quite at 1. It's why when he is going into a hole and gets hit, he'll fall backwards more than the average NFL quality prospect. A back like Edgerrin James, who is unbelievably good at getting low often gets closer to the number 3 with his shoulder lean and while still running forward. You can't do this unless your hips and knees are bent.
Felix Jones keeps his shoulders between the 1 and 2 position on the clock when running through traffic. It's why he most often falls forward and I'm not as worried about his prospects from this standpoint.
I think EBF's basic argument about BMI and McFadden's frame are legitimate, but I don't share the same concerns about how they translate to McFadden's prospects. When I watch McFadden, I see the ability to be violent, powerful, decisive, and so on. I know CC has cited the final LSU/ARK game of McFadden's career as a primary case for his power, and as a fan who had to watch him gash us, I think he's absolutely right. Felix Jones and even Peyton Hillis ripped us, too, but that was all because of McFadden's influence. Our whole gameplan was aimed at stopping him.
