Who is the #22 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. Kevin Durant (38%).
17. David Robinson (41%).
18. Jerry West (37%)
19. Charles Barkley (42%).
20. Kevin Garnett (27%).
21. Karl Malone (32%).
22. ????????????

 

[Mister CIA]

Let's get this out of the way, Elgin Baylor.

...wondering if I like Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

 

[msudaisy26]

I feel like Dirk should be the pick. Best shooting big man ever, take him off Dallas and replace him with just a good power forward like Gasol, Bosh, or Webber and Dallas goes from winning one title and being in the mix several times to a team that has trouble making the playoffs every year and probably peaks with second round exits once every three year or four years.

 

[Jayrod]

A 0x MVP and 0x champion from the 1960's over a 2x MVP, champion and Finals MVP from the 2020's?

In what way is the first guy better than the last, exactly? Less achievements in a weaker era?

I'm incensed, flummoxed and bamboozled.

 

[Yo Mama]

A 0x MVP and 0x champion from the 1960's over a 2x MVP, champion and Finals MVP from the 2020's?

In what way is the first guy better than the last, exactly? Less achievements in a weaker era?

I'm incensed, flummoxed and bamboozled.

I’d counter that Baylor’s competition for titles and MVPs was more difficult than anything Jokic has faced recently.

Although I’m fine discounting all those 60s Celtics championships in that weaker era.

 

[the moops]

I’d counter that Baylor’s competition for titles and MVPs was more difficult than anything Jokic has faced recently.

During his prime years there were only 8 or 9 teams in the entire NBA. And several of those years, #18 all time player Jerry West was on his team

 

[msudaisy26]

Let's get this out of the way, Elgin Baylor.

...wondering if I like Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

Rick Barry likes Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

 

[Yo Mama]

I’d counter that Baylor’s competition for titles and MVPs was more difficult than anything Jokic has faced recently.

During his prime years there were only 8 or 9 teams in the entire NBA. And several of those years, #18 all time player Jerry West was on his team

My point is, what team did Jokic beat for his title that’s better than the 60s Celtics dynasty? What players did Jokic go against for MVP that are better than prime Wilt, Russell, and Oscar?

 

[Jayrod]

I’d counter that Baylor’s competition for titles and MVPs was more difficult than anything Jokic has faced recently.

During his prime years there were only 8 or 9 teams in the entire NBA. And several of those years, #18 all time player Jerry West was on his team

My point is, what team did Jokic beat for his title that’s better than the 60s Celtics dynasty? What players did Jokic go against for MVP that are better than prime Wilt, Russell, and Oscar?

LeBron, Giannis & Curry are and have been as good or better MVP candidates than Wilt, Russell and Oscar.

Also what player on Jokic's team was as good as Jerry West and even an old Wilt Chamberlain?

And for competition, they beat the Suns with 2 sure HOFers and 1 young superstar with HOF potential. Then they SWEPT the LeBron/AD Lakers (2020 champs).

 

[nirad3]

Gotta go Dirk here.

 

[Frostillicus]

bumper

 

[the moops]

Jokic is a way better basketball player that Baylor. This is dumb

 

[Navin Johnson]

Let's get this out of the way, Elgin Baylor.

...wondering if I like Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

Rick Barry likes Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

Debatable

 

[msudaisy26]

Let's get this out of the way, Elgin Baylor.

...wondering if I like Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

Rick Barry likes Brent Barry more than Rick Barry.

Debatable

That is why we are here.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Interest waning? Or just everyone went away for Labor Day.

I've been voting for Elgin the last couple polls. But I'm basing that off stories I read as a child. I don't remember Baylor as a player, only as Donald Sterling's inept lacky.

 

[Kev4029]

I’d counter that Baylor’s competition for titles and MVPs was more difficult than anything Jokic has faced recently.

During his prime years there were only 8 or 9 teams in the entire NBA. And several of those years, #18 all time player Jerry West was on his team

My point is, what team did Jokic beat for his title that’s better than the 60s Celtics dynasty? What players did Jokic go against for MVP that are better than prime Wilt, Russell, and Oscar?

I think it's a fair argument that prime Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are most probably better players through the 60s than Giannis, post-prime Curry/Lebron, and Embiid.

I think the better argument for Jokic in terms of this discussion is that his last three regular seasons stand levels above anything Baylor ever did and are competitive with anything ANY player has ever done over a three year stretch. Once you add in the playoff success of last year specifically, but also for him historically, he seems like the clear pick here to me (a well-known Nuggets homer).

When I get some time today, I'll give a longer writeup explaining myself.

 

[Doug B]

Interest waning? Or just everyone went away for Labor Day.

I've been voting for Elgin the last couple polls. But I'm basing that off stories I read as a child. I don't remember Baylor as a player, only as Donald Sterling's inept lacky.

That's one of the tough things about evaluating these guys at this point: It's hard to just chuck all the stuff you learned about "all-time great NBA players" growing up 40 years ago.

I also recall that winning titles was not really part of general sports "all-time greats" discussions back then. I understand the "gotta win titles!" argument more for basketball (vs other sports) with only five on the court and one player sometimes having the ability to elevate a so-so team. But I still hesitate to just throw down "no titles" in a listing like this now that we're out of the top several guys.

 

[Jayrod]

I'm a massive Jokic fan. I think he is the next all-time great and will be in the top 10 before his career is over. His skills will age very well and he's likely going to put in another decade of tremendous production. May only be MVP-level for another 5 seasons, but he's going to have a Duncan like longevity, IMO.

Unless he pulls an Andrew Luck and just hangs it up out of the blue while still performing at a high level and just wants to race horses back in Serbia instead of grind out an NBA season.

 

[Doug B]

I think the better argument for Jokic in terms of this discussion is that his last three regular seasons stand levels above anything Baylor ever did and are competitive with anything ANY player has ever done over a three year stretch. Once you add in the playoff success of last year specifically, but also for him historically, he seems like the clear pick here to me (a well-known Nuggets homer).

As much as Jokic has accomplished ... he can get (unfairly?) slotted into the "didn't do it long enough!" category. Maybe the flip side of the "no titles" argument. Player X can't control that his team didn't win titles for whatever reason. Player Y can't control that he's only been in the league five years (or whatever).

Plus I didn't read about Jokic in NBA history books when I was in junior high

 

[BobbyLayne]

Interest waning? Or just everyone went away for Labor Day.

I've been voting for Elgin the last couple polls. But I'm basing that off stories I read as a child. I don't remember Baylor as a player, only as Donald Sterling's inept lacky.

That's one of the tough things about evaluating these guys at this point: It's hard to just chuck all the stuff you learned about "all-time great NBA players" growing up 40 years ago.

I also recall that winning titles was not really part of general sports "all-time greats" discussions back then. I understand the "gotta win titles!" argument more for basketball (vs other sports) with only five on the court and one player sometimes having the ability to elevate a so-so team. But I still hesitate to just throw down "no titles" in a listing like this now that we're out of the top several guys.

I barely remember Elgin. When they talked about him then (late 60s) it was about how explosive he was before he hurt his knee (around 1964 IIRC.) Still put up great numbers but wasn’t the same player. Then he tore Achilles, I wanna say he either missed a whole year or played less than 10 games & hung ’em up.

Dude was 1st team All NBA 10 times, of course we knew the legend, but I can’t say I know much first hand about how great he was. Especially in those first 5 years or so when it was him & Jerry West + a bunch of scrubs.

 

[the moops]

Dude was 1st team All NBA 10 times

When there are only 8 teams in the league, this is far less impressive than it sounds. Still impressive, but less so than say, Magic and Bird's 9 first teams, or KD's 6 even.

 

[Jayrod]

Dude was 1st team All NBA 10 times

When there are only 8 teams in the league, this is far less impressive than it sounds. Still impressive, but less so than say, Magic and Bird's 9 first teams, or KD's 6 even.

The only other forwards I can name from that era are Bob Pettit and John Havlicek. Outside of that, there were few great players as it was primarily a center's game.

 

[thecatch]

I think the better argument for Jokic in terms of this discussion is that his last three regular seasons stand levels above anything Baylor ever did and are competitive with anything ANY player has ever done over a three year stretch. Once you add in the playoff success of last year specifically, but also for him historically, he seems like the clear pick here to me (a well-known Nuggets homer).

As much as Jokic has accomplished ... he can get (unfairly?) slotted into the "didn't do it long enough!" category. Maybe the flip side of the "no titles" argument. Player X can't control that his team didn't win titles for whatever reason. Player Y can't control that he's only been in the league five years (or whatever).

Plus I didn't read about Jokic in NBA history books when I was in junior high

As impressed as we all were with Jokic last year, there's some recency bias here. We'd be having similar conversation about Kawhi Leonard if we were doing this after the Raptors title. (Leonard should be listed ahead of Isiah Thomas while I'm on the subject.)

 

[Jayrod]

I think the better argument for Jokic in terms of this discussion is that his last three regular seasons stand levels above anything Baylor ever did and are competitive with anything ANY player has ever done over a three year stretch. Once you add in the playoff success of last year specifically, but also for him historically, he seems like the clear pick here to me (a well-known Nuggets homer).

As much as Jokic has accomplished ... he can get (unfairly?) slotted into the "didn't do it long enough!" category. Maybe the flip side of the "no titles" argument. Player X can't control that his team didn't win titles for whatever reason. Player Y can't control that he's only been in the league five years (or whatever).

Plus I didn't read about Jokic in NBA history books when I was in junior high

As impressed as we all were with Jokic last year, there's some recency bias here. We'd be having similar conversation about Kawhi Leonard if we were doing this after the Raptors title. (Leonard should be listed ahead of Isiah Thomas while I'm on the subject.)

But, to be honest, if Baylor had a 3 year stretch in his career like Jokic & Giannis have, he'd be on our list already in the top 15.

Anyone that had a stretch similar to Joker/Giannis (multiple MVP's & a ring with Finals MVP) are already on our list.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Dude was 1st team All NBA 10 times

When there are only 8 teams in the league, this is far less impressive than it sounds. Still impressive, but less so than say, Magic and Bird's 9 first teams, or KD's 6 even.

Good point, though that was only true for a few of those years. Still 1st Team when the league was at 9, 10, 12 or 14 (the last couple while many stars chose to defect to the ABA.)

All you can do is compare players within their own era. Size of the league, style of play, level of commitment and fitness were all quite different. But he was the best for a decade plus so I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss him.

 

[Kev4029]

Here is my case for Jokic (without beating the stats too heavy)– I think he is the best floor raiser in NBA history, better than Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Magic, or Kareem. I think you could throw the 2023 version of him on the 22-23 Pistons and they are a playoff team. We often hear about making the players around you better and I don’t think there has ever been a better example of that player than Jokic. This is because he kind of combines the skill sets of many of the greatest players of all time - he has the passing vision of Jason Kidd, the post game and footwork of Hakeem, the mid-range shooting ability of Jordan or Durant, the defensive rebounding of Rodman, and the quiet leadership skills and unselfishness of Duncan, with the clutch skills we associate with Jordan or Kobe. His lack of athleticism obviously holds him back, but his skill level is all-time great.

To demonstrate his floor raising ability, take the 2021-22 Denver Nuggets – their nine-man rotation around Jokic included Aaron Gordon, a career backup PG, four guys that are currently unsigned (Campazzo was out of the league by November last year), a rookie PG that was drafted with pick 26, and Jeff Green. Jokic lead that godawful team to a 48-34 record.

Or better, maybe, the 20-21 Nuggets won a playoff series starting Austin Rivers and Facundo Campazzo at guard and giving real minutes to Markus Howard and Shaq Harrison – against a backcourt of Dame Lillard and CJ McCollum. That **** is still bonkers to me.

While I think Jokic’s efficiency and regular season dominance is well documented, if still underappreciated, his post season exploits are significantly underrated. He has the highest PER of all time (a half point above Jordan); the 4th highest WS/48; more PPG (9th all-time) than Kobe, Curry, and Shaq; more RPG than Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, or anybody else that started their career after I was born (1985); more APG than Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird.

I was skeptical that Jokic could be an all-time ceiling raiser, as well as being potentially the best floor raiser of all-time, but I think he satisfied my concerns by taking a team with only one player that had ever made an All-Star game in their career (DeAndre Jordan who played 14 playoff minutes and made his one and only AS game 6 seasons ago) through the playoffs with a 16-4 record (3rd best this millennia) and smoking all four teams on the way to the title.

 

[msudaisy26]

I think you could throw the 2023 version of him on the 22-23 Pistons and they are a playoff team.

Easy now.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I think you could throw the 2023 version of him on the 22-23 Pistons and they are a playoff team.

Easy now.

Depends on what version of the 22-23 Pistons. What they were rolling out at the end of the year wasn't salvageable, but put Jokic in the opening night lineup with Cunningham, Bogdanovic and Bey and you might have something.

 

[Jayrod]

Here is my case for Jokic (without beating the stats too heavy)– I think he is the best floor raiser in NBA history, better than Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Magic, or Kareem. I think you could throw the 2023 version of him on the 22-23 Pistons and they are a playoff team. We often hear about making the players around you better and I don’t think there has ever been a better example of that player than Jokic. This is because he kind of combines the skill sets of many of the greatest players of all time - he has the passing vision of Jason Kidd, the post game and footwork of Hakeem, the mid-range shooting ability of Jordan or Durant, the defensive rebounding of Rodman, and the quiet leadership skills and unselfishness of Duncan, with the clutch skills we associate with Jordan or Kobe. His lack of athleticism obviously holds him back, but his skill level is all-time great.

To demonstrate his floor raising ability, take the 2021-22 Denver Nuggets – their nine-man rotation around Jokic included Aaron Gordon, a career backup PG, four guys that are currently unsigned (Campazzo was out of the league by November last year), a rookie PG that was drafted with pick 26, and Jeff Green. Jokic lead that godawful team to a 48-34 record.

Or better, maybe, the 20-21 Nuggets won a playoff series starting Austin Rivers and Facundo Campazzo at guard and giving real minutes to Markus Howard and Shaq Harrison – against a backcourt of Dame Lillard and CJ McCollum. That **** is still bonkers to me.

While I think Jokic’s efficiency and regular season dominance is well documented, if still underappreciated, his post season exploits are significantly underrated. He has the highest PER of all time (a half point above Jordan); the 4th highest WS/48; more PPG (9th all-time) than Kobe, Curry, and Shaq; more RPG than Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, or anybody else that started their career after I was born (1985); more APG than Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird.

I was skeptical that Jokic could be an all-time ceiling raiser, as well as being potentially the best floor raiser of all-time, but I think he satisfied my concerns by taking a team with only one player that had ever made an All-Star game in their career (DeAndre Jordan who played 14 playoff minutes and made his one and only AS game 6 seasons ago) through the playoffs with a 16-4 record (3rd best this millennia) and smoking all four teams on the way to the title.

It seems to me that in order to be a true all-time great "floor raiser" you need to be great at more than one thing and have no other holes. For his career, Jokic's hole was his defense but he has honestly fixed that. His greatness is in his passing and scoring efficiency from all 3 levels.

I think the guys he most compares with here are Magic & LeBron as far as a guy who's game elevates everyone around him while simultaneously able to single-handedly win games.

 

[Kev4029]

Bump - we are ALMOST there!