Who is the better QB? Carr. Jimmy G. Or D Jones? update! at their current price tag, who do want on your team? (1 Viewer)

[travdogg]

Jones has the least leverage of any of them because the other two are essentially UFA's.

the Giants do have the benefit of the tag available to them but then they risk losing Barkley. Your statement is still true, but the Giants are likely a motivated buyer.

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term. They aren't a good football team in my opinion, they just happened to have a good season, and catch a lot of breaks in close games. This could easily be a better team next season and only win 7-8 games.

Barkley especially seems like a huge risk given the recent history of 2nd contract RBs.

 

[Ilov80s]

Tough question. It's not Jimmy. Carr certainly is more reliable than Jones and has a better track record but I also feel like we've seen the best of Carr. He's never going to be better than an average NFL starter. Daniel Jones at least still has some possible upside left to tap into.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

This statement is a recurring theme that a couple of us have been saying in the DJ topic for weeks.

IMO, Barkley would be more worth tagging, but with a deep RB class / FA pool they’d probably be better off moving on from both for $45M / $14M respectively.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Tough question. It's not Jimmy. Carr certainly is more reliable than Jones and has a better track record but I also feel like we've seen the best of Carr. He's never going to be better than an average NFL starter. Daniel Jones at least still has some possible upside left to tap into.

Agreed on Carr.

If Jones had that upside, he wouldn’t still be making the same mistakes he’s been making since he was a rookie.

IMO he’s a very average QB who has good legs, and a coach who was able to squeeze the most possible juice out of him by minimizing his role a bit.

But Jones still can’t make more than 1 read, stares down that 1 read, has a bad pocket clock, doesn’t feel pressure, fumbles under duress, and can’t hit a RB in the flat to save his life. At this point, he has to hit that bunny pass. Purdy was hitting CMC with dump-offs like that in his 1st start, so maybe it’s not coachable.

I would even argue that part of what made DJ “better” this year was actually proof of a deficiency: he’d make 1 read, then take off running.

Yes, it helped the Giants by avoiding stupid sacks/fumbles when he wouldn’t throw it away, but it’s still not better than being a better QB who can check down to the open man before taking off running.

 

[travdogg]

Tough question. It's not Jimmy. Carr certainly is more reliable than Jones and has a better track record but I also feel like we've seen the best of Carr. He's never going to be better than an average NFL starter. Daniel Jones at least still has some possible upside left to tap into.

Agreed on Carr.

If Jones had that upside, he wouldn’t still be making the same mistakes he’s been making since he was a rookie.

IMO he’s a very average QB who has good legs, and a coach who was able to squeeze the most possible juice out of him by minimizing his role a bit.

But Jones still can’t make more than 1 read, stares down that 1 read, has a bad pocket clock, doesn’t feel pressure, fumbles under duress, and can’t hit a RB in the flat to save his life. At this point, he has to hit that bunny pass. Purdy was hitting CMC with dump-offs like that in his 1st start, so maybe it’s not coachable.

To be fair, CMC is a FAR better pass catcher than Barkley. Cam Newton wasn't exactly known for his ability to throw to RBs (Stewart had 47 Cam's rookie year, nobody else topped 27 in the 6 years before CMC was there) until CMC got there, and CMC had 80 and 107 his 1st 2 seasons.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that Barkley is overrated as a pass catcher, and while Jones certainly missed him a couple of times (that Dallas game was especially rough) I don't think its entirely fair to compare the two.

 

[menobrown]

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I agree that making the playoffs may have not be ideal for their long term outlook but I'd absolutely use the tag on either Jones or Barkley. I know it all hits the cap but they are both worth that one year price tag IMO.

 

[Ilov80s]

Agreed on Carr.

If Jones had that upside, he wouldn’t still be making the same mistakes he’s been making since he was a rookie.

IMO he’s a very average QB who has good legs, and a coach who was able to squeeze the most possible juice out of him by minimizing his role a bit.

But Jones still can’t make more than 1 read, stares down that 1 read, has a bad pocket clock, doesn’t feel pressure, fumbles under duress, and can’t hit a RB in the flat to save his life. At this point, he has to hit that bunny pass. Purdy was hitting CMC with dump-offs like that in his 1st start, so maybe it’s not coachable.

I would even argue that part of what made DJ “better” this year was actually proof of a deficiency: he’d make 1 read, then take off running.

Yes, it helped the Giants by avoiding stupid sacks/fumbles when he wouldn’t throw it away, but it’s still not better than being a better QB who can check down to the open man before taking off running.

I am not a big fan of Jone and soundly mocked his selection. However, I have to admit his situation has been less than ideal. No weapons, questionable coaching, issues with the OL. Last year he clearly took a step forward. He might never become even a Kirk Cousins level pocket passer but as long as he his legs, he might be able to lead a very effective NFL offense.

 

[Ilov80s]

Of course Daniel Jones could totally crash and burn.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I am not a big fan of Jone and soundly mocked his selection. However, I have to admit his situation has been less than ideal. No weapons, questionable coaching, issues with the OL. Last year he clearly took a step forward. He might never become even a Kirk Cousins level pocket passer but as long as he his legs, he might be able to lead a very effective NFL offense.

I don’t disagree with this, but he needs the right coach, too.

As soon as he’s asked to put the team on his back, he can lose you a game in a hurry.

ETA: but then the same is true for Carr as well, and to some extent JimmyG.

 

[travdogg]

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I agree that making the playoffs may have not be ideal for their long term outlook but I'd absolutely use the tag on either Jones or Barkley. I know it all hits the cap but they are both worth that one year price tag IMO.

I can be on board with tagging Jones. I'd laugh at 45 million though. 14 for Barkley, especially in a very friendly buyer's market is tough to get on board with.

 

[menobrown]

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I agree that making the playoffs may have not be ideal for their long term outlook but I'd absolutely use the tag on either Jones or Barkley. I know it all hits the cap but they are both worth that one year price tag IMO.

I can be on board with tagging Jones. I'd laugh at 45 million though. 14 for Barkley, especially in a very friendly buyer's market is tough to get on board with.

I thought Barkley's tag amount was just over $10M? I'd happily pay him that on a one year deal for what he means to the offense. I'd rather let him walk over a longer term deal, especially one that is higher.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I agree that making the playoffs may have not be ideal for their long term outlook but I'd absolutely use the tag on either Jones or Barkley. I know it all hits the cap but they are both worth that one year price tag IMO.

I can be on board with tagging Jones. I'd laugh at 45 million though. 14 for Barkley, especially in a very friendly buyer's market is tough to get on board with.

I thought Barkley's tag amount was just over $10M? I'd happily pay him that on a one year deal for what he means to the offense. I'd rather let him walk over a longer term deal, especially one that is higher.

I think it’s $12M, and he’s (or his agent) said he wants $14M IIRC

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I said this same thing in the Jones thread.

 

[menobrown]

If I were the Giants, I might want to get out on both Jones and Barkley. I sort of wonder if making the playoffs this year, might end up being the worst thing that could have happened long term.

I agree that making the playoffs may have not be ideal for their long term outlook but I'd absolutely use the tag on either Jones or Barkley. I know it all hits the cap but they are both worth that one year price tag IMO.

I can be on board with tagging Jones. I'd laugh at 45 million though. 14 for Barkley, especially in a very friendly buyer's market is tough to get on board with.

I thought Barkley's tag amount was just over $10M? I'd happily pay him that on a one year deal for what he means to the offense. I'd rather let him walk over a longer term deal, especially one that is higher.

I think it’s $12M, and he’s (or his agent) said he wants $14M IIRC

I'm close to 100% sure it's just a hair over $10M for RB's and with the use of the tag it does not matter what his agent wants unless Barkley is going to pull a Bell. (he won't)

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm close to 100% sure it's just a hair over $10M for RB's and with the use of the tag it does not matter what his agent wants unless Barkley is going to pull a Bell. (he won't)

You’re probably right. I did just recently read that if they don’t franchise DJ, they might be more inclined to use the tag on Julian Love, which IMO would be a better use.

Personally I think they should give love a long-term contract, as green dot safeties who make your entire defense more cohesive are harder to come by. But I’m not an NFL GM, so what do I know.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

RB tag is slightly over 10M

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Whelp, the guy I voted for is now a raider. :slapithigh?:

 

[The Frankman]

Whelp, the guy I voted for is now a raider. :slapithigh?:

and the best, most team-friendly contract relative to talent/experience.

I mean the fit with Davante might not be the best, but Raiders have a strong running game and have Zamir White waiting in the wings. If they can cobble an actual defense Jimmy G has experience checking down and game managing a team to success. The big issue is can the Raiders actually do that?

 

[DA RAIDERS]

So given their salaries

Whelp, the guy I voted for is now a raider. :slapithigh?:

and the best, most team-friendly contract relative to talent/experience.

I mean the fit with Davante might not be the best, but Raiders have a strong running game and have Zamir White waiting in the wings. If they can cobble an actual defense Jimmy G has experience checking down and game managing a team to success. The big issue is can the Raiders actually do that?

agreed. And maybe just maybe Waller stays healthy. Jimmy definitely knows how to throw to a good te.

 

[Chaka]

Jimmy G has experience checking down and game managing a team to success.

This is a big misconception IMO. Garoppolo has a career average of 8.3 yards/attempt.

He's not guilty of checking down too often. And if it's all YAC (and it's not) then he hits receivers in stride better than any QB in the league.

Garoppolo presses the ball down field regularly. Certainly a bunch more than Jones & Carr.

 

[rockaction]

This is a big misconception IMO. Garoppolo has a career average of 8.3 yards/attempt.

I see what you're saying, but you want aDOT as your guide here, not Y/A. If anybody has a PFF subscription, now's a great time to report back to us.

 

[travdogg]

I think the Raiders just downgraded at QB (though I wouldn't be surprised at all by a Will Levis pick) its just by how much?

I'm of the belief Carr is pretty average, and Jimmy G is a little below average, and basically the Mendoza line of acceptable starting QBs.

This is a big misconception IMO. Garoppolo has a career average of 8.3 yards/attempt.

I see what you're saying, but you want aDOT as your guide here, not Y/A. If anybody has a PFF subscription, now's a great time to report back to us.

This is very true. There were only 4 QB's with a higher YPA than aDOT, which to me means they had either great supporting casts carrying them, or great play design. It also tends to mean these players are due for regression, and/or that they maximized their ability. The 4 QBs were:

1. Jimmy Garoppolo (he also led in 2021)
2. Brock Purdy (sensing a theme?)
3. Patrick Mahomes
4. Daniel Jones

For comparisons sake the 4 QBs on the other end of the spectrum are:
1. Marcus Mariota
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Derek Carr
4. Zach Wilson

This would seem to highlight QBs who were put on position to make big plays, and failed either due to their own poor play, or being let down by their teammates.

What this illustrates most to me, is that Jimmy G ran almost a polar opposite offense in SF compared to what he'll run in Vegas. Its a strange fit, and even though there is the McDaniels connection, its going to be a major challenge for Jimmy G, as he'll be well outside what he's used to. For example, no TE is used more downfield than Darren Waller, and only AJ Brown was used more as a downfield WR than Davante Adams last year, among WRs who had over 1000 yards.

Conversely, Carr wasn't well suited for McDaniels offense, and will likely find more success on NO than he did in 2022, as this wasn't an issue he had in previous seasons with Gruden at all.

Also, fun fact, 2020 Nick Mullens was among the leaders in YPA>aDOT, so Kyle Shanahan has really been making SF QB pretty much the easiest QB job in the NFL.

 

[rockaction]

^ That's what I was getting, only travdogg gives numbers to back it up. Nice. I suspected that the Y/A for Jimmy G was carried by his team's overall yards after catch. So it is.

 

[kface]

This is a great question and hard to answer. They are all very middle of the road but for very different reasons...

 

[Chaka]

This is a great question and hard to answer. They are all very middle of the road but for very different reasons...

Which is why I also pointed out that if it is mostly YAC then Jimmy clearly knows where to go with the ball and how to hit his guys in stride.

 

[kface]

This is a great question and hard to answer. They are all very middle of the road but for very different reasons...

Which is why I also pointed out that if it is mostly YAC then Jimmy clearly knows where to go with the ball and how to hit his guys in stride.

As long as the pass is short and he doesn't have too many reads or there isn't any pressure...
Might be the system as well

 

[Chaka]

As long as the pass is short and he doesn't have too many reads or there isn't any pressure...

It might be the system. It certainly doesn't hurt.

But, again, the rest of the narrative doesn't fit.

 

[jtd13]

I voted Carr. Buy I want the one that's cheapest for my NFL team.

 

[The Frankman]

I think the Raiders just downgraded at QB (though I wouldn't be surprised at all by a Will Levis pick) its just by how much?

I'm of the belief Carr is pretty average, and Jimmy G is a little below average, and basically the Mendoza line of acceptable starting QBs.

This is a big misconception IMO. Garoppolo has a career average of 8.3 yards/attempt.

I see what you're saying, but you want aDOT as your guide here, not Y/A. If anybody has a PFF subscription, now's a great time to report back to us.

This is very true. There were only 4 QB's with a higher YPA than aDOT, which to me means they had either great supporting casts carrying them, or great play design. It also tends to mean these players are due for regression, and/or that they maximized their ability. The 4 QBs were:

1. Jimmy Garoppolo (he also led in 2021)
2. Brock Purdy (sensing a theme?)
3. Patrick Mahomes
4. Daniel Jones

For comparisons sake the 4 QBs on the other end of the spectrum are:
1. Marcus Mariota
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Derek Carr
4. Zach Wilson

This would seem to highlight QBs who were put on position to make big plays, and failed either due to their own poor play, or being let down by their teammates.

What this illustrates most to me, is that Jimmy G ran almost a polar opposite offense in SF compared to what he'll run in Vegas. Its a strange fit, and even though there is the McDaniels connection, its going to be a major challenge for Jimmy G, as he'll be well outside what he's used to. For example, no TE is used more downfield than Darren Waller, and only AJ Brown was used more as a downfield WR than Davante Adams last year, among WRs who had over 1000 yards.

Conversely, Carr wasn't well suited for McDaniels offense, and will likely find more success on NO than he did in 2022, as this wasn't an issue he had in previous seasons with Gruden at all.

Also, fun fact, 2020 Nick Mullens was among the leaders in YPA>aDOT, so Kyle Shanahan has really been making SF QB pretty much the easiest QB job in the NFL.

BINGO. For some reason McDaniels pigeonholed Carr in to a system he didn't really fit well in, as the well-coiffed Denny Carter broke down in this NBCSportsEDGE article. I think that's why he was kinda overpaid; he had to run an offense that didn't work to his strengths and that might be why the Saints had a rosier view of him. Josh McDaniels by now knows he's gotta adjust the script.


EDIT: also Daniel Jones 4th on that first list, of course.

 

[travdogg]

I think the Raiders just downgraded at QB (though I wouldn't be surprised at all by a Will Levis pick) its just by how much?

I'm of the belief Carr is pretty average, and Jimmy G is a little below average, and basically the Mendoza line of acceptable starting QBs.

This is a big misconception IMO. Garoppolo has a career average of 8.3 yards/attempt.

I see what you're saying, but you want aDOT as your guide here, not Y/A. If anybody has a PFF subscription, now's a great time to report back to us.

This is very true. There were only 4 QB's with a higher YPA than aDOT, which to me means they had either great supporting casts carrying them, or great play design. It also tends to mean these players are due for regression, and/or that they maximized their ability. The 4 QBs were:

1. Jimmy Garoppolo (he also led in 2021)
2. Brock Purdy (sensing a theme?)
3. Patrick Mahomes
4. Daniel Jones

For comparisons sake the 4 QBs on the other end of the spectrum are:
1. Marcus Mariota
2. Mitch Trubisky
3. Derek Carr
4. Zach Wilson

This would seem to highlight QBs who were put on position to make big plays, and failed either due to their own poor play, or being let down by their teammates.

What this illustrates most to me, is that Jimmy G ran almost a polar opposite offense in SF compared to what he'll run in Vegas. Its a strange fit, and even though there is the McDaniels connection, its going to be a major challenge for Jimmy G, as he'll be well outside what he's used to. For example, no TE is used more downfield than Darren Waller, and only AJ Brown was used more as a downfield WR than Davante Adams last year, among WRs who had over 1000 yards.

Conversely, Carr wasn't well suited for McDaniels offense, and will likely find more success on NO than he did in 2022, as this wasn't an issue he had in previous seasons with Gruden at all.

Also, fun fact, 2020 Nick Mullens was among the leaders in YPA>aDOT, so Kyle Shanahan has really been making SF QB pretty much the easiest QB job in the NFL.

BINGO. For some reason McDaniels pigeonholed Carr in to a system he didn't really fit well in, as the well-coiffed Denny Carter broke down in this NBCSportsEDGE article. I think that's why he was kinda overpaid; he had to run an offense that didn't work to his strengths and that might be why the Saints had a rosier view of him. Josh McDaniels by now knows he's gotta adjust the script.


EDIT: also Daniel Jones 4th on that 1st list View attachment 3533View attachment 3534

Brian Daboll was in pretty nice company with Shanahan and Reid for scheming guys open. With better WRs, Jones may have topped the list.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

bump for the tweak in the poll question

 

[Deamon]

Help settle a debate For me.

I have no dog in the fight

seems like you do have a dog in the fight if you're looking to settle a debate

 

[Deamon]

agreed. And maybe just maybe Waller stays healthy. Jimmy definitely knows how to throw to a good te.

well that didnt last long

 

[Grahamburn]

It's hard...

@WetDream