Who is the Oakland WR to own? (1 Viewer)

[Bronx Bomber]

Just listen to last weeks Audible where Waldman lists Moore as one of the guys that has the elite physical talent of an AJ Green(dont remember the exact quote but it was to that effect). I'll take that guy.

 

[DoubleG]

But my guess is that a guy who still hasn't had more than 25 receptions or 500 yards and has a total of 3 receiving TDs in 24 games aint a guy that the OP felt necessary to include in the poll. But feel free to start your own. You could even entitle it something like "If DHB falls off the Empire State Building and D. Moore is abducted by aliens, who would the Raiders leading WR be THEN?!?" That might not work either though, because Louis Murphy is on the roster too - and he also had a better year in 2010 than Ford did - despite that being Ford's best season.

Murph? Really? Murphy is hot garbage, and is not a lock to even make the final roster. His in the mix for the 5th and 6th WR spots and is currently nursing a hammy. He may never even see the field to prove himself this preseason. The only thing going for him currently is the competition for the last WR spots currently are Duke Calhoun and UDFA Rod Streater.As for Ford, he is coming off injury and it’s not fair to project last year’s sophomore stats after a promising rookie year where he made a surprising impact making some remarkable plays downfield. He’s not been in the league that long to project he’s only going to be a 25 reception type guy. When healthy, there aren’t many corners who can keep up with him and if they use in the slot he can create some mismatches against slower safeties. It's a new regime, and they will use him differently. After Moore, I think Ford will be a force to contend with in 2012. Great leaping ability, hands, and ballhawk skills and I see Palmer taking his shots with Ford to open up the field for Moore. He's a weapon.

I think you missed my point on Murphy - I agree that he's pretty much a stiff...and yet he outperformed Ford in Ford's best season so far. It was more of an indictement of Ford than praise for Murphy.I didn't say he was "only a 25 reception guy" - simply pointed out that for all the touting that's his best season. May he get 30-50? Sure. But that aint gonna help many FF teams. Guys that can snag 40-50 passes are a dime a dozen in FF - and many of them are more consistant.

I also agree with your statement regarding Ford:

When healthy, there aren’t many corners who can keep up with him and if they use in the slot he can create some mismatches against slower safeties.

The problem is the first two words of the sentance. He hasn't been - and for a speed/jump guy (which he has to be as he is undersized) - many of the issues are related to his legs/feet. That's a big concern - especially when coupled with the Raider's addition of Moore (i.e. someone who can do everything Ford does, only better).Ironically, your point about moving Ford into the slot and creating safety mismatches kind of proves my point - that is, he is the 3rd best WR on the team - behind the two starters outside in DHB and Moore.

The people touting Ford and his rookie season are also forgetting that as much as Ford "looked the part" that season - Moore looked even better his rookie season (and put up better numbers) with no training camp and no offseason to speak of.

Will Ford have a better season this year than either of his first two? Probably. But, barring injury to Moore and/or DHB, I don't see it being significantly better. Certainly not enough to be fantasy starter - and barely a viable reserve...at best.

 

[LawFitz]

If you include returns and run plays, I would disagree that Moore had a better rookie season than Ford. Especially considering Ford spent the first half of his rookie year on the pine.

 

[mr roboto]

While I'm high on Moore and got him in my main dynasty last year, this corps is a crap shoot right now.

Let's forget the 'injury prone' argument. It's been 2 years. So Ford is legitimately in the conversation.

I think Moore is the superior prototypical WR of the 3. So he has an advantage IMO. DHB looked like he took a step forward last year, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he is looking the part.

I would forecast that Moore has the highest ceiling, with DHB maybe at 80% of his production. Ford is the wild card. Forget Murphy. Watch Criner.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Why is Jacoby Ford in this discussion?

In 2 years in the league:

-3 games over 100 yards receiving

-0 games between 48 yards to 100 yards receiving

-His highest reception games in order= 6,5,4,3,3,3,3,2,etc

-3 receiving TDs in two years

After all of that some think he could be a WR1?

Not a chance.

DHB/Moore are taller, produced more, and are just as fast.

If you play in a best ball league, sure take Jacoby Ford in the last round for that random game. If not, i'm passing.

ETA: Lets compare just 2011 stats to Ford's career stats.

DHB

-3 games over 100 yard receiving

-5 games between 48 yards to 100 yards receiving

-Reception games in order=9,8,7,6,5,5,4,4,4,4,4

-4 receiving tds

Moore

-3 games over 100 yard receiving

-2 games between 48 yards to 100 yards receiving

-Reception games in order=5,5,4,4,4,3,3,2

-5 receiving tds

Ford is clearly the WR3.

 

[squistion]

While I'm high on Moore and got him in my main dynasty last year, this corps is a crap shoot right now.

Let's forget the 'injury prone' argument. It's been 2 years. So Ford is legitimately in the conversation. I think Moore is the superior prototypical WR of the 3. So he has an advantage IMO. DHB looked like he took a step forward last year, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he is looking the part.

I would forecast that Moore has the highest ceiling, with DHB maybe at 80% of his production. Ford is the wild card. Forget Murphy. Watch Criner.

I agree with the bolded, but that is not to say I wouldn't currently rank him 3rd and he does look to be the odd-man-out in the mix. DHB came on at the end of last year, but he was a pet of Al Davis, has no loyalty from the current regime and could regress. Plus an injury to either Moore or DHB would push Ford into a starter's spot that he may not relinquish once they are healthy (unlikely, but a possibility).Yes, I think few would take Ford seriously as the WR to own this year, but it is not silly (as some suggest) to include him in this discussion.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

While I'm high on Moore and got him in my main dynasty last year, this corps is a crap shoot right now.

Let's forget the 'injury prone' argument. It's been 2 years. So Ford is legitimately in the conversation. I think Moore is the superior prototypical WR of the 3. So he has an advantage IMO. DHB looked like he took a step forward last year, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he is looking the part.

I would forecast that Moore has the highest ceiling, with DHB maybe at 80% of his production. Ford is the wild card. Forget Murphy. Watch Criner.

I agree with the bolded, but that is not to say I wouldn't currently rank him 3rd and he does look to be the odd-man-out in the mix. DHB came on at the end of last year, but he was a pet of Al Davis, has no loyalty from the current regime and could regress. Plus an injury to either Moore or DHB would push Ford into a starter's spot that he may not relinquish once they are healthy (unlikely, but a possibility).Yes, I think few would take Ford seriously as the WR to own this year, but it is not silly (as some suggest) to include him in this discussion.

It seems that some of the comments in this thread are from people who already have a stake in one WR or the other and are trying to convince everyone or maybe themselves that they have the situation all pegged. We are all just guessing and so am I.

Currently, I have zero invested in any of them in fantasy, and really want all of them to succeed. Yes, even DHB. But I would not be surprised to see Ford outperform his current draft status and overtake DHB. And I won't be a bit surprised to see Juron Criner as the hot waiver wire pickup and DHB the mostly likely to be dropped at some point in the season.

 

[mr roboto]

I also think analyzing past performance in a situation like this is pretty meaningless. Ford was hurt, Moore was a rookie, DHB obviously made improvements, Palmer with no offseason, Davis passing and new management structure, draft strategy and long term vision likely changing.

So in these circumstances I think coach speak, size/skill/positional strength, mean more than what did you do last year.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Moore injured his hamstring and will be out a couple of weeks probably.

 

[massraider]

Moore injured his hamstring and will be out a couple of weeks probably.

The rest of the team that is healthy will be out a couple of weeks as well.

 

[Lash]

Moore

(and to add my favorite saying used on these boards...)

and it's not close!

why?

the eye-test

<---- and these eyes been on Moore a long time

 

[Normie32r]

Rod Streater anyone????

 

[footballnerd]

Given the relative cost, I wouldnt want either of them. I would rather spend a much later pick on Ford. Moore is probably the best option in a vacuum, but his cost puts him out of my price range.

 

[Skeletore Eh]

Just listen to last weeks Audible where Waldman lists Moore as one of the guys that has the elite physical talent of an AJ Green(dont remember the exact quote but it was to that effect). I'll take that guy.

I believe waldman also said he would take Steve smith Carolina and Vincent Jackson over Julio and Dez in dynasty, so...I have the feeling someone will take Moore too soon for my tastes, so I'll take my chances with ford and criner. Let's not forget ford was being given the McFadden treatment leading up to last season. Limited practice saving him for gameday. Obviously he was injured all year and that is a concern, but the guy is a game changer. He passes the eyeball test with flying colors. And let's not forget Moore was hampered by injury as well. Notice I didn't even mention DHB

 

[socrates]

While I'm high on Moore and got him in my main dynasty last year, this corps is a crap shoot right now. Let's forget the 'injury prone' argument. It's been 2 years. So Ford is legitimately in the conversation. I think Moore is the superior prototypical WR of the 3. So he has an advantage IMO. DHB looked like he took a step forward last year, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he is looking the part. I would forecast that Moore has the highest ceiling, with DHB maybe at 80% of his production. Ford is the wild card. Forget Murphy. Watch Criner.

Moore certainly looked like a real game changer. I am still not sold on DHB, though. I am not ready to dismiss Ford. I cannot remember seeing a more electric receiver than Ford, and he has very good ball skills. It seems likely he will need an injury to occur to get significant playing time, so he may not be worth drafting, unless very late. However, Ford is definitely on my radar as a potential free agent pickup.

 

[karmarooster]

He lacks the hands and ballhawk skills, and it can't be learned.

I don't know if I agree with this. I do think a lot of this kind of talent is instinctual, but I also think you can improve catching skills with enough dedication. Maybe there is a limit to how much you can improve on these talents if you don't have the natural instincts, but I do think you can get better at it.

DHB stats:2009 - 9 catches on 40 targets, 22% catch rate

2010 - 26 on 65, 40% catch rate

2011 - 64 on 113, 56%

From terrible to just a bit bad. His YPR has also gone up year to year, to 15. If he gets another 115 targets, 58% catch rate, 15 YPR = 66 receptions for 1,000 yards. That's a nice value for a 10th rounder. Probably a good bye-week starter, maybe worth a match up play as WR3. I'd say this is a cautious pick, not likely to blow up.

But clearly Moore has the kind of upside that could top that, and if you favor a strategy that seeks to maximize late round upside. 43% catch rate last year, which he can definitely improve with a full offseason with Palmer and an offseason of development of his own after last year's lockout. If Palmer locks onto him, and he stays healthy, he could top 125 targets. 125 x 56% x a more beastly 17 YPR = 70 receptions, 1,200 yards, probably greater TDs. A legit shot to be a very nice value WR2, currently drafted in the 8th round. I'd still say he's a value at that point. I'm sure his ADP will creep up in August, but I'd still rather have him than most anyone above him into the 7th round: Kenny Britt, Torrey Smith, Reggie Wayne, Robert Meachem.

Ford has virtually infinite return on investment as the something like WR70, and can be taken in the late rounds. It wouldn't surprise me if DHB or Moore missed a few games, or Ford took over from time to time in the slot. Outside shot at being a WR3, but almost no cost.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I did take DHB in dynasty, he was somewhat of a project when Oakland took him and it seemed like last yr he started to put it together. Getting an improvement at QB helped showcase what hes got. If he can continue to improve he'll become a good WR1.

 

[Sabertooth]

Given the relative cost, I wouldnt want either of them. I would rather spend a much later pick on Ford. Moore is probably the best option in a vacuum, but his cost puts him out of my price range.

Seeing a lot of this going on this season. Whatever happened to picking your own team?

 

[cstu]

He lacks the hands and ballhawk skills, and it can't be learned.

I don't know if I agree with this. I do think a lot of this kind of talent is instinctual, but I also think you can improve catching skills with enough dedication. Maybe there is a limit to how much you can improve on these talents if you don't have the natural instincts, but I do think you can get better at it.

DHB stats:2009 - 9 catches on 40 targets, 22% catch rate

2010 - 26 on 65, 40% catch rate

2011 - 64 on 113, 56%

From terrible to just a bit bad. His YPR has also gone up year to year, to 15. If he gets another 115 targets, 58% catch rate, 15 YPR = 66 receptions for 1,000 yards. That's a nice value for a 10th rounder. Probably a good bye-week starter, maybe worth a match up play as WR3. I'd say this is a cautious pick, not likely to blow up.

But clearly Moore has the kind of upside that could top that, and if you favor a strategy that seeks to maximize late round upside. 43% catch rate last year, which he can definitely improve with a full offseason with Palmer and an offseason of development of his own after last year's lockout. If Palmer locks onto him, and he stays healthy, he could top 125 targets. 125 x 56% x a more beastly 17 YPR = 70 receptions, 1,200 yards, probably greater TDs. A legit shot to be a very nice value WR2, currently drafted in the 8th round. I'd still say he's a value at that point. I'm sure his ADP will creep up in August, but I'd still rather have him than most anyone above him into the 7th round: Kenny Britt, Torrey Smith, Reggie Wayne, Robert Meachem.

Ford has virtually infinite return on investment as the something like WR70, and can be taken in the late rounds. It wouldn't surprise me if DHB or Moore missed a few games, or Ford took over from time to time in the slot. Outside shot at being a WR3, but almost no cost.

I've said for awhile that DHB is following VJax's career trajectory. VJax wasn't quite as raw at DHB but it took him to his 4th season to be the Chargers top receiver. He was still being outplayed by mid-season acquisition Chris Chambers in 2007 before his breakout 2008. The big difference between the two were the expectations on DHB as the #7 pick vs. VJax at #61.VJax stats:

2005 - 3 catches on 8 targets, 37% catch rate

2006 - 27 on 56, 48% catch rate

2007 - 41 on 80, 50%

 

[zadok]

I'll take Criner.

Me too.

 

[Shutout]

Not Louis Murphy

 

[karmarooster]

He lacks the hands and ballhawk skills, and it can't be learned.

I don't know if I agree with this. I do think a lot of this kind of talent is instinctual, but I also think you can improve catching skills with enough dedication. Maybe there is a limit to how much you can improve on these talents if you don't have the natural instincts, but I do think you can get better at it.

DHB stats:2009 - 9 catches on 40 targets, 22% catch rate

2010 - 26 on 65, 40% catch rate

2011 - 64 on 113, 56%

From terrible to just a bit bad. His YPR has also gone up year to year, to 15. If he gets another 115 targets, 58% catch rate, 15 YPR = 66 receptions for 1,000 yards. That's a nice value for a 10th rounder. Probably a good bye-week starter, maybe worth a match up play as WR3. I'd say this is a cautious pick, not likely to blow up.

But clearly Moore has the kind of upside that could top that, and if you favor a strategy that seeks to maximize late round upside. 43% catch rate last year, which he can definitely improve with a full offseason with Palmer and an offseason of development of his own after last year's lockout. If Palmer locks onto him, and he stays healthy, he could top 125 targets. 125 x 56% x a more beastly 17 YPR = 70 receptions, 1,200 yards, probably greater TDs. A legit shot to be a very nice value WR2, currently drafted in the 8th round. I'd still say he's a value at that point. I'm sure his ADP will creep up in August, but I'd still rather have him than most anyone above him into the 7th round: Kenny Britt, Torrey Smith, Reggie Wayne, Robert Meachem.

Ford has virtually infinite return on investment as the something like WR70, and can be taken in the late rounds. It wouldn't surprise me if DHB or Moore missed a few games, or Ford took over from time to time in the slot. Outside shot at being a WR3, but almost no cost.

I've said for awhile that DHB is following VJax's career trajectory. VJax wasn't quite as raw at DHB but it took him to his 4th season to be the Chargers top receiver. He was still being outplayed by mid-season acquisition Chris Chambers in 2007 before his breakout 2008. The big difference between the two were the expectations on DHB as the #7 pick vs. VJax at #61.VJax stats:

2005 - 3 catches on 8 targets, 37% catch rate

2006 - 27 on 56, 48% catch rate

2007 - 41 on 80, 50%

Then in 2008 he improved to 58%, 63% in 2009, and regressed back to 52% last year. So there's hope that DHB can push 60%, but I'd argue there is further evidence that DHB is a worse WR and will never have hands as good as Vjax (who doesn't have the greatest hands himself). Vince has always been used as a deep threat, and his YPR were between 17-19. DHB has been used as more of an intermediate threat, although his YPR has been improving from 13 to 15 last year. Catching long balls somewhat excuses Vince in the catch percentange category, and I don't think that DHB has the skillset to track a deep pass in the air and catch it on a regular basis.

Still, if DHB was the 28th ranked WR last year, he has a very good chance of outplaying his ADP. I just don't think he's every going to be the game-breaker that Moore can be.