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LaDainian Tomlinson, Terrell Davis, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, Shaun Alexander and Emmitt Smith would all like a word with you.
Peterson...this is not your normal RB vs QB debate, he's relied on as heavily as a Manning, Rodgers, or Brady. He's got more touches than his QB has pass attempts... and I'd be surprised if he had less 20, 30, 40, and 50 yard gains than Ponder has.
no, it's really not
16 games projected:CJ - 1916 / 6AP - 1969+260 / 12Brady - 4718 / 36, 5 intsManning - 4692 / 37, 12 intsCJs on pace for a record season and AP is not (he's quite far off actually), but the TDs are killing CJ. Remember that Moss didn't win with 1493 / 23 (he didn't even get a single vote), although his competition was much stiffer than it is this year.I honestly don't know why Brady is even in the conversation. This is just a typical Brady season (he's had 2 better seasons). Manning is in it because of the neck thing and switching teams; this is probably his second best season ever (meaning it's a better season than 3 times he won the MVP) but the bar is just so high for QBs now that it doesn't stand out stats wise.For me the race is between CJ, AP, JJ Watt and Aldon Smith. I would love to see a non-QB win it, even better if it's a defender. I hope if Aldon Smith sets the sack record he'll at least get a couple votes. Smith is on pace to break the sack record, Watt is already the only (since they started recording them, 2001 I think) player to record 15 sacks and 15 PDs in a season (he's at 16.5 & 15 with 3 games to go). Aldon Smith has already set the record for the most sacks in a player's first 2 seasons.'David Yudkin said:
Simply because a player performs at this level all the time doesn't mean they aren't deserving. 7:1 TD:int ratio. Think of how valuable it is to put up that many points as the Pats are and effectively never turn the ball over. Also, Pats beat Denver head to head, and are probably the best team in the league.
That he's had success behind such a mediocre line is amazing. Kalil is a rookie and Sullivan can play Center well but the rest are just average lineman at best. Defenses aren't even remotely concerned about the passing game and still haven't been able to slow him down.It's hardly an outrage if any of the players mentioned in this tread win but ADP's performance is the most shocking and impressive in my opinion.
Because Brady and the Pats are still doing things that others have not. You are basically saying that both the Pats and NE are doing things that THEY have done before, not others.At this point, Brady is on pace for 40 total TD (when you add in rushing TD). He currently has accounted for 32 TD to just 4 turnovers. NE is on pace for 581 points scored (a handful less than their record breaking season). They lost 3 games this year . . . by 1, 1, and 2 points . . . all on the last play of the game.Brady may not win, but he certainly has a resume this year to merit him being one of the front runners for MVP.
Yes it is. Jacksonville would be in the playoff race with Manning or Brady. With Peterson they'd be the same crappy team.'jason12vb said:
All of that is irrelevant. How players' possible MVP seasons compare to their other seasons mean nothing. A player doesn't have to have his best season ever to be the MVP, especially when you are as historically great as Brady and Manning both are.
I haven't watched a Jags game this year so I cannot speak to how bad they look...but you sound like you haven't seen a Vikings game either and in that case I don't blame you for not understanding how brutally horrendous Ponder has played the last two months....it's unbelievable someone can play so badly and not be benched. Your fantasyland scenario doesn't make any case in my mind. Meanwhile real life shows the Vikings in the playoff hunt (slight as it may seem) and Peterson rushing for 150 more yards than Ponder has passed for over the last 7 games... and he's doing it at 7 ypc (6 over the whole season) while teams are all but selling out against the run and trying to force the Vikings to pass.Granted they are 3-4 in those games, but 4 of them are against teams squarely in the playoff picture (Chi x2, GB, Seattle) and one was against TB while they were the hottest team in the NFL.QBs deservedly get MVP year in and year out because so much of the offense runs through them. The Vikings offense runs through Peterson...there's just a worthless middleman between he and the center that defenses don't care about.
Exactly. Have we not learned that the only reason teams even employ running backs anymore is due to fantasy football? Peterson/Johnson can battle it out for offensive player of the year but they're not MVPs.
i would hope not
Irrelevant to this discussion.
I should've said "any bad team" instead of singling out Jacksonville, but it's not fantasyland at all. See 2010-2012 Colts/Broncos. A lot of those MVP QB's who had the offense run through them had schmuck Ponder-equivalent backfield mates at RB; and they wouldn't have sniffed mvp if their team was 7-6. You would trade AP for a good QB straight up in a heartbeat and you know it. Unfortunately no GM would reciprocate.
I'm thinking it could be a combination of some of the following: This isn't 2008. if this was 2008, Cassel just took an 18-0 team and made it a team that didn't make the post season, so not sure how that factors into anything. This is 2012 and in this season Brady has played lights out on a Divison winning, first round bye chasing team throwing only 4 INTs all season.So yeah, aside from that it's not close
Brady and Manning are having great seasons, but not all-time great seasons. Meanwhile CJ, Aldon Smith and possibly Watt are. I think that's relevant.Like most people (I suspect), I don't think of the MVP as literally being the 'most valuable' player (what that even means is up for debate). You could easily make the argument that RG3 is actually the most valuable player to his team this year. But that doesn't mean he should get the MVP (maybe it should!).
We have limited data, but in the only time the Pats lost him they went 11-5 with a bad QB. That's why. Nobody's saying Brady isn't a great player, but he also plays on a great team. There are 21 other starters on that team, and they are very good.The Pats are 11th best in points allowed. And that's with other teams often playing catch up in blowout games when you expect the D to soften. Don't believe the hype about the Pats D.
Dude, we are on totally different wavelengths here because I don't understand the example...the Broncos were a playoff team last-year without a QB at all?!?!?!
a "Ponder-equivalent backfield mate" is called a street bum without a job. Curious to know which starting RBs you'd consider to be Ponders equivalent on an QB's-MVP winning team ....I'm only 34, so please keep it in the last 20 years.
You drink water and you know it! Has nothing do to with the conversation...Yes I would trade him for a good starting QB. Doesn't mean AP can't be the most valuable player to his team.
You don't see the difference between an 8-8 team that backed into the playoffs and a team that is probably gonna go 12-4 or 13-3?
Why, because he's a rookie? Colts were putrid last year. If Redskins somehow make playoffs, why not RG3? Both of these teams would be nowhere near the playoff hunt without those guys. You can argue that Patriots & Broncos could make playoffs without Brady or Manning, because they have already.<BR> <BR>I'm not saying Brady or Manning don't deserve it though. I'd probably still go with Manning.
"Limited" is an understatement. The 2010 Chiefs capitalized on a soft schedule (the nfc west which the Patriots played in '08 was dreadful that year) for a 10win outlier season with Cassel before returning to obscurity - that's what teams with bad qb's do. It's what the Dolphins did the year Brady got hurt. You'd probably think the Chiefs had a great roster too if Brady played for them in 2009 and 2011. I don't know which is crazier, the argument against Brady or Manning. Oh look - the 2011 Broncos, the luckiest 8-8 team in history per point differential, who needed games handed to them by the Bears/Dolphins, who needed their kicker to make 60yarders, and who needed the Raiders to choke vs the Chargers in week 17, were in the playoffs last year! Great. I guess the 2011 Seahawks who were coming off that sweet 7-9 division-winning season should've been DQ'd of any mvp candidates even if they had Joe Montana & Jim Brown in their prime.
I do and I attribute much of it to Manning...but he isn't the only improvement this season and it's not inconceivable to think going from Orton/Tebow to an average QB wouldn't have been worth a few wins as well in a bad division.
This argument might hold weight if the Bronco's didn't go to the second round of the playoffs last year without Manning, and if Manning didn't have so many 1 and done choke jobs in the playoffs. Not to mention Cassel didn't even lead the Patriots to the playoffs that year, and there is no doubt that Brady would have, and Cassell did lead the Chiefs to the playoffs one year throwing 27 touchdowns and 7 ints.They are all in the discussion, after week 14 I give a slight edge to Peterson, Brady a close second, Manning a close 3rd. This could all change this week if the Rams hold Peterson under 100, Brady gets killed against San Fran and the Bronco's give the Ravens a beat down.
So what's your working definition of MVP? Really this all hinges on that, and it's not spelled out to us by the AP as far as I know.
There absolutely is. It's very difficult to improve from 8-8 to 12-4. The problem as I see it, is the Broncos went 7-4 after Tebow took over. Tebow, the guy who can't even get a starting gig over Mark Sanchez.
Frankly I think Peterson's credibility for MVP goes up with Harvin out because it shows just how much ADP carries/can carry the team. With Harvin out defenses have zoned squarely in on the run and Peterson is still putting up record numbers.
eterson - 1183/8Ponder - 1055/6