Who will win the messaging war on COVID relief? (2 Viewers)

[The Commish]

what more direct answers do you want? its YOUR state, I'm having to guess at the why's and maybe's and the things that make sense to me

I mean it makes sense for strong business to be hurting and/or close to closing - the restrictions killed them (except the big stores, they were allowed to stay open) 

In tourist places, even worse impacts occurred. Tack on travel bans and city shutdowns and 50% capacity rules ..... man its been a killer and the people elected in this country knew EXACTLY what they were doing. 

you don't have to guess anything.  you can see clearly that the problem is much more influenced by confidence than "lockdowns".  it's crystal clear and when attrition happens because people aren't out, the "little guy" is always going to get hammered hardest  

The most bizarre part of the whole thing is the attitudes in Congress (the Senate specifically at the moment) towards continuing to fund those in need.  Because you're correct....the people in charge are the people in charge.  They made decisions that impacted people and are now saying it's too expensive to help.  Hopefully, people remember this, but I doubt it.  The "sides" mentality is too strong in too many IMO.

 

[Stealthycat]

you don't have to guess anything.  you can see clearly that the problem is much more influenced by confidence than "lockdowns".  it's crystal clear and when attrition happens because people aren't out, the "little guy" is always going to get hammered hardest  

The most bizarre part of the whole thing is the attitudes in Congress (the Senate specifically at the moment) towards continuing to fund those in need.  Because you're correct....the people in charge are the people in charge.  They made decisions that impacted people and are now saying it's too expensive to help.  Hopefully, people remember this, but I doubt it.  The "sides" mentality is too strong in too many IMO.

no that's actually not how it works IMO

If the shutdowns had told Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes and the big giant stores to close and allowed all the small businesses to stay open - then the small businesses would have gotten all the business and not starved out

the Powers that Be didn't do that - they wanted thousands pouring into the few stores left open - which makes no sense, that created super spreader events but hey, nobody questions do they ? billionaires made a killing, small businesses failed, millions sent to unemployment and poverty

this was the plan with the results known in advance

your Florida is where it is because of the decision makers - as is the rest of the states .......... you're right, blame them, at local, state and federal levels

 

[The Commish]

no that's actually not how it works IMO

If the shutdowns had told Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes and the big giant stores to close and allowed all the small businesses to stay open - then the small businesses would have gotten all the business and not starved out

the Powers that Be didn't do that - they wanted thousands pouring into the few stores left open - which makes no sense, that created super spreader events but hey, nobody questions do they ? billionaires made a killing, small businesses failed, millions sent to unemployment and poverty

this was the plan with the results known in advance

interesting theory....almost conspiracy like.  I can only speak for my area...I don't know a single "mom/pop" sort of store like these mentioned here that closed.  Not one.  They all stayed open.  They were "essential" just like HD and Lowes.  I spent more time in my local Ace Hardware than I care to count and continue to do so (going there again shortly).  I can't speak for other states.  However, I don't disagree that "billionaires make a killing".  No question about that.  This is part of the monetary inequality I have preached about in this forum for years that you specifically argue with all the time and claim isn't what it is.  Glad you're finally beginning to see the light.

your Florida is where it is because of the decision makers - as is the rest of the states .......... you're right, blame them, at local, state and federal levels

My Florida is primarily where it's at because the federal support has stopped flowing.  Things weren't ideal during most of 2020 but the contrast between how things were when the government was helping supplement people and when the money got cut off is glaringly obvious.  That money is desperately needed and there is a specific group of politicians in DC right now suggesting that they are giving TOO MUCH money to those desperately in need.  So yeah, I'll continue to blame them and hold them accountable as I always do.  Hopefully, you'll see the light and join me....especially at the federal level.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Giving the people what they want, works.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse" - Alexander Fraser Tytler 

 

[Stealthycat]

interesting theory....almost conspiracy like.  I can only speak for my area...I don't know a single "mom/pop" sort of store like these mentioned here that closed.  Not one.  They all stayed open.  They were "essential" just like HD and Lowes.  I spent more time in my local Ace Hardware than I care to count and continue to do so (going there again shortly). 

how did small businesses stay open during the shutdown? did they not suffer financially from stay at home orders? the minimum # of people store rules/laws passed etc? 

My Florida is primarily where it's at because the federal support has stopped flowing.  Things weren't ideal during most of 2020 but the contrast between how things were when the government was helping supplement people and when the money got cut off is glaringly obvious.  That money is desperately needed and there is a specific group of politicians in DC right now suggesting that they are giving TOO MUCH money to those desperately in need.  So yeah, I'll continue to blame them and hold them accountable as I always do.  Hopefully, you'll see the light and join me....especially at the federal level.

I have an idea

Life all the orders/rules/restrictions and let people back to living again. Anyone at risk and in the age group that covid strikes hard - they need to take precautions just like in bad flu years.

But even if that happened, the damages are so done that it'll take years and years to recover

https://www.flchamber.com/new-florida-chamber-political-poll-shows-a-divided-electorate-2/

Again I'm saying that when people shut businesses down - for 4 weeks or 8 weeks, 50% seating, take out only - every city/state has done things differently - the people who passed all those rules and regulations KNEW they were killing the economy and small business

now tell me why do you think they did it anyway ? it absolutely was NOT about saving lives - if it were, we'd see the same people banning smoking and obesity and all the other things that kill hundreds of thousands every year.  Its not a conspiracy to discuss all that can be gained from shutting an economy down - I think politically hurting Trump was the #1 reason. I think #2 was to get people more reliant on Govt care to advance socialist agenda. 

#2 worked on you - you sound hook, line and sinker convinced that only the Fed Govt borrowing trillions more will "save" Florida and I'm telling you it will not. The Fed Govt isn't the financial backbone of this country - capitalism is. It appears to me, elected officials used covid as an avenue to stop the entire flow of an economy, disrupt it, allow the rich/billionaires who fill the coffers of elections to get their money, but put the boot heal to American workers.

You can disagree, but you can't prove I'm not wrong no more so than I can prove I'm right. I see what I see.

 

[The Commish]

how did small businesses stay open during the shutdown? did they not suffer financially from stay at home orders? the minimum # of people store rules/laws passed etc? 

Remember...we are talking about my state here.  They stayed open like everyone else that was allowed to stay open   We had minimal stay at home orders and why I continue to put "shutdown" in quotes.  We really weren't "shut down" in any meaningful sense of the word.  We had a couple months where bars, restaurants, barber shops / beauty salons,spas were closed...not allowed to be open.  They were to 50% capacity way before anyone else (you can look at the link from clickorlando that you posted).  At no point do I ever remember a "stay at home order" for people in this state but there might have been one really early on.  If there was, few around me obeyed it.  So we did have max persons limits for a brief time.  That was also a time where people were being made whole by the state and federal government.  Today, limits are removed and so is the state/fed support, but people still aren't out and about all that much and businesses are now closing faster than they were when getting the gov't support.  

I have an idea

Life all the orders/rules/restrictions and let people back to living again. Anyone at risk and in the age group that covid strikes hard - they need to take precautions just like in bad flu years.

Again....already done and businesses are closing faster than they were in the middle of the "lockdown".  Your idea doesn't seem to be working in practice in this state  

now tell me why do you think they did it anyway ? it absolutely was NOT about saving lives - if it were, we'd see the same people banning smoking and obesity and all the other things that kill hundreds of thousands every year.  Its not a conspiracy to discuss all that can be gained from shutting an economy down - I think politically hurting Trump was the #1 reason. I think #2 was to get people more reliant on Govt care to advance socialist agenda. 

#2 worked on you - you sound hook, line and sinker convinced that only the Fed Govt borrowing trillions more will "save" Florida and I'm telling you it will not. The Fed Govt isn't the financial backbone of this country - capitalism is. It appears to me, elected officials used covid as an avenue to stop the entire flow of an economy, disrupt it, allow the rich/billionaires who fill the coffers of elections to get their money, but put the boot heal to American workers.

These seem like odd statements to make towards someone who believes the "shutdowns" weren't necessary if people would keep their distance, use masks and wash their hands.  If you've actually read any of my responses to you, you'll remember that I commented on your article you linked with the study saying there was no meaningful difference between areas that did the right thing on their own vs areas that did the right thing because they were forced to.  Your semantically bleached definition of "socialism" isn't the boogeyman here.  American selfishness and unwillingness to do things for others is IMO.  

My position has ALWAYS been we can do this on our own, but it has to be done.  If we choose not to, then the government will step in and make us to do.  And when they step in it's on them to do it correctly and support those they are putting at a disadvantage.  Only then do I support "government assistance" as an option.  We've clearly shown as a collective we are unwilling to do the correct thing unfortunately.  

If you want to make it bigger than that simple concept, have at it.  Remember, the fed government punted to the states.  I'll just point out two very problematic things with this theory.  #1.  The issues here transcend the "sides" you are trying to create unless you believe that a majority of even GOP run areas were "out to get Trump" as well.  #2.  You seem to be ok with the vaccine rollout in which our government is funding, researching, helping create and distributing.  It the closest thing that you've likely seen happen in this country that could begin to be defined as "socialist" but I don't see you complaining about it which I find odd.  Those kinds of inconsistencies make it hard for me to believe you believe these things.

You can disagree, but you can't prove I'm not wrong no more so than I can prove I'm right. I see what I see.

I think this is probably the core of the issue...Ultimately, I am not trying to "prove" anything.  I'm reacting to the things happening in my state and the nation.  I don't have a preconceived narrative that I feel I have to validate and I don't have a side that I feel I have to defend.  I'm not obligated to that lens.  I hold all politicians to the same standard and do my best to go beyond my anecdotes in an attempt to get to the bigger picture.

 

[djmich]

Probably already said....I'm not sure who wins, but I know we will all lose.

 

[Stealthycat]

My position has ALWAYS been we can do this on our own, but it has to be done. 

ok so that tells me you supported the shut downs, the stay at home orders, the 50% capacity, travel bans etc etc ..... and thus, you full well knew that it'd kill small businesses and tourism, send millions to unemployment and make the wealthy even wealthier. I assume you took that as acceptable damages ???  well those damages are STILL happening as a result of the measures that it appears to me you supported. 

 

[The Commish]

ok so that tells me you supported the shut downs, the stay at home orders, the 50% capacity, travel bans etc etc ..... and thus, you full well knew that it'd kill small businesses and tourism, send millions to unemployment and make the wealthy even wealthier. I assume you took that as acceptable damages ???  well those damages are STILL happening as a result of the measures that it appears to me you supported. 

Clearly you're reading what you want to....stated twice in those paragraphs very plainly.  "Support" is the completely wrong word to use:

These seem like odd statements to make towards someone who believes the "shutdowns" weren't necessary if people would keep their distance, use masks and wash their hands.

My position has ALWAYS been we can do this on our own, but it has to be done.  If we choose not to, then the government will step in and make us to do.

Doing "nothing" is not an option unfortunately, which is what the next step is beyond what I felt was necessary  

 

[Stealthycat]

Clearly you're reading what you want to....stated twice in those paragraphs very plainly.  "Support" is the completely wrong word to use:

you said " My position has ALWAYS been we can do this on our own, but it has to be done.  If we choose not to, then the government will step in and make us to do "

did you not mean shut downs, travel bans, mask wearing, 6' rule, limit dining etc etc ?

Doing "nothing" is not an option unfortunately, which is what the next step is beyond what I felt was necessary  

nobody has ever suggested doing nothing - however, for a large portion of the population that covid isn't affecting - over 90% of American's haven't contracted covid-19 but certainly many if not all have been exposed - why should live be dramatically impacted ?

its a serious question - I've never ever ever seen healthy un-sick people who have small chances of catching a virus been impacted with quarantines and forced closures and travel bans etc etc - it should be the SICK people impacted, and those who are impacted

safety is one thing - this massive knee jerk that happened should be a blue print of what NOT to do for a possible pandemic / epidemic 

I'm very curious long term effects on a rush rush mRNA vaccine as well as will the small businesses that were crushed ever return

 

[The Commish]

you said " My position has ALWAYS been we can do this on our own, but it has to be done.  If we choose not to, then the government will step in and make us to do "

did you not mean shut downs, travel bans, mask wearing, 6' rule, limit dining etc etc ?

I meant social distancing, staying away from each other, wearing a mask and washing our hands.  Things don't have to be shut down if people do those things and have common courtesy for one another.  Clearly, we are too selfish to do that as a country, so it was on to the plan B.....I don't/didn't like it but I understand it.

nobody has ever suggested doing nothing - however, for a large portion of the population that covid isn't affecting - over 90% of American's haven't contracted covid-19 but certainly many if not all have been exposed - why should live be dramatically impacted ?

And here's one of the significant disconnects...."affected" isn't simply people getting the virus.  We're all affected and with the asymptomatic nature of the virus in a great many, it requires us all to be diligent.  When there's a very real chance a person like me could have had the virus and not even known it, that's a problem we can only combat by distancing, laying low and washing our hands.

I'm very curious long term effects on a rush rush mRNA vaccine as well as will the small businesses that were crushed ever return

Long term effects are likely to be minimal at this point....this was a concern I shared as well, but it seems like this will not be a significant issue.  And no, not all small businesses will be back.  Some are done for good which is a direct result of our selfishness of a society IMO.  I am hoping the next virus we see like this people heed the warnings, wear masks, stay away from each other and wash their hands, but I am not all that confident.

 

[Stealthycat]

I meant social distancing, staying away from each other, wearing a mask and washing our hands.  Things don't have to be shut down if people do those things and have common courtesy for one another.  Clearly, we are too selfish to do that as a country, so it was on to the plan B.....I don't/didn't like it but I understand it.

thanks for clarifying

I personally think a virus is going to rage through a population regardless - you can read many stories of people that say they were so careful and yet still got covid - its a virus. 

its not illegal to be selfish - if a group of people want to gather, not wear masks etc - that's their choice. I don't understand trying to take people's freedoms - if they want to take the chance on getting covid that's kinda up to them

if I'm scared of covid - then that's on ME and my choices, I'm not putting that on other people

And here's one of the significant disconnects...."affected" isn't simply people getting the virus.  We're all affected and with the asymptomatic nature of the virus in a great many, it requires us all to be diligent.  When there's a very real chance a person like me could have had the virus and not even known it, that's a problem we can only combat by distancing, laying low and washing our hands.

if I'm sacred of covid - I'm going to self isolate. You having covid and/or going out and partying or whatever you're doing is absolutely irrelevant to me. I'm going to be super careful - and that's on me, not you

 

[The Commish]

I personally think a virus is going to rage through a population regardless - you can read many stories of people that say they were so careful and yet still got covid - its a virus.

What makes you believe the vaccines won't work?

its not illegal to be selfish - if a group of people want to gather, not wear masks etc - that's their choice. I don't understand trying to take people's freedoms - if they want to take the chance on getting covid that's kinda up to them

It's not an issue of legality.  It's an issue of morality and consideration of fellow man.  And this one specific situation you bring up I agree with.  The problem, of course, is it makes up maybe 5% of the situations?  That's "tail wagging the dog" if I've ever seen it.  

f I'm scared of covid - then that's on ME and my choices, I'm not putting that on other people

Simply put, this isn't an "me" or "I" situation, it's a "we" situation and it's not "either/or"

if I'm sacred of covid - I'm going to self isolate. You having covid and/or going out and partying or whatever you're doing is absolutely irrelevant to me. I'm going to be super careful - and that's on me, not you

Certainly your choice...my ONLY point is it doesn't have to be this drastic if people meet in the middle.  The absurdity of the polarization of this whole thing is quite possible the dumbest, most moronic position I've ever witnessed and it's my belief it's a direct reflection of our politics.  I see one side saying "you can't make me wear a mask, you're infringing on my rights!!!!!!!" and the other saying "You shouldn't be out in public ever.  Stay in your house!!!!"  It's absurd.  The answer is obviously not either of those.  It's in the middle.

 

[Stealthycat]

I'm skeptical on the "vaccine" because we have never used an mRNA before - this is uncharted waters.

It's an issue of morality and consideration of fellow man

we don't have morality and consideration anymore - we allow abortion, smoking, obesity .... Democrats hate Republicans and GOP hates DNC ... rich hate poor, poor hate rich, people are pushing for more and more legalized drug use that kills in many many ways ..... we have race, cultural, religious conflicts, everyone wants to be a minority, more and more people don't want to work, they want the Fed Govt to give them money and that same Fed Govt is 30 trillion in debt and giving billions to other countries and nobody see's the lack of consideration to its own citizens .......

I'm sorry, we don't have morality or consideration anymore, not really :(   not on a wide scale anyway

funny, i read your post 3 times and never did you mention personal responsibility. Why? 

 

[The Commish]

I'm skeptical on the "vaccine" because we have never used an mRNA before - this is uncharted waters.

we don't have morality and consideration anymore - we allow abortion, smoking, obesity .... Democrats hate Republicans and GOP hates DNC ... rich hate poor, poor hate rich, people are pushing for more and more legalized drug use that kills in many many ways ..... we have race, cultural, religious conflicts, everyone wants to be a minority, more and more people don't want to work, they want the Fed Govt to give them money and that same Fed Govt is 30 trillion in debt and giving billions to other countries and nobody see's the lack of consideration to its own citizens .......

I'm sorry, we don't have morality or consideration anymore, not really :(   not on a wide scale anyway

funny, i read your post 3 times and never did you mention personal responsibility. Why? 

You may not....I do.  If you don't want to engage in that, then no need to reply to me.  Morality is the bedrock of my positions and how I make judgements and standards.  "Legality" means very little to me.  I don't know what the bold means if you are unwilling to talk the morality aspects....they are all about personal responsibility.  So you either want to talk about them or you don't.  Make up your mind.  It's my belief we are all personally responsible to wear masks, stay away from each other, wash our hands and respect those around us.  Do those things and we don't have to be "locked down".  What else do you want said on that?

 

[Stealthycat]

You may not....I do.  If you don't want to engage in that, then no need to reply to me.  Morality is the bedrock of my positions and how I make judgements and standards.  "Legality" means very little to me.  I don't know what the bold means if you are unwilling to talk the morality aspects....they are all about personal responsibility.  So you either want to talk about them or you don't.  Make up your mind.  It's my belief we are all personally responsible to wear masks, stay away from each other, wash our hands and respect those around us.  Do those things and we don't have to be "locked down".  What else do you want said on that?

when you look around, do you see morality and consideration ? 

me personally? I have a Christian faith, I try really hard to be as good as I can be. When I look around, especially on the news with riots, looting, protests, how the Fed Govt is doing things, when I take a minute and reflect on legalized abortion, legalized cigarettes, legalized drugs, legalized strip clubs and prostitution, the way "we" as society treats veterans and homeless and .... man I could go on and on and its depressing how poor people are as humans :(  

I don't see any morality or much consideration overall - my brother was talking on facebook and mentioned that we have the power of the internet in our hands - with mobile devices - and what are we doing with it? candy crush, tiktok and fortnite :(

I read this yesterday "In 2019, only 37% of third-graders in Illinois demonstrated grade-level proficiency in English-language arts, and when it came to math only 41% could demonstrate grade-level proficiency"

really ?  how is that possible in today's world ! 

personally I think we're sliding worse and worse into immorality, as a society we have far less ethics, there is more hate than I've ever seen ( I'm 51 years old ) .......... I'm just calling it like I see it.

I do appreciate you sharing your views - gives me a different perspective to consider. I quit conservative political boards, there is little food for thought when discussing things with people who agree with same views

 

[The Commish]

when you look around, do you see morality and consideration ? 

Absolutely....I see it everywhere, but I admit I'm not looking through the lens of our news media or political puppets.  That's probably a rather large difference between us.

me personally? I have a Christian faith, I try really hard to be as good as I can be. When I look around, especially on the news with riots, looting, protests, how the Fed Govt is doing things, when I take a minute and reflect on legalized abortion, legalized cigarettes, legalized drugs, legalized strip clubs and prostitution, the way "we" as society treats veterans and homeless and .... man I could go on and on and its depressing how poor people are as humans :(  

I don't see any morality or much consideration overall - my brother was talking on facebook and mentioned that we have the power of the internet in our hands - with mobile devices - and what are we doing with it? candy crush, tiktok and fortnite :(

I read this yesterday "In 2019, only 37% of third-graders in Illinois demonstrated grade-level proficiency in English-language arts, and when it came to math only 41% could demonstrate grade-level proficiency"

really ?  how is that possible in today's world ! 

personally I think we're sliding worse and worse into immorality, as a society we have far less ethics, there is more hate than I've ever seen ( I'm 51 years old ) .......... I'm just calling it like I see it.

And this pretty much illustrates my hunch.  I know there are many things this country has to work on.  I also know there are a bunch of things we get right.  When I look at our country I see thousands and thousands of man hours and money going to help people in Texas.  I see tons and tons of NGOs, charities, and community support groups working on the backs of volunteers to help people get out of poverty and break a cycle of homelessness.  I see tons of organizations working to better their communities.  I see 10s of millions of people unifying for human rights.  I see organizations raising funds to support avenues to prevent the need to choose abortion.  All kinds of things like that.

In my view, social media and the national MSM are the most toxic sources of "information" I can think of.  They are the absolute WORST lenses to view the world through.  They are here to present you WHATEVER WILL KEEP YOUR ATTENTION ON THEM!  That's it...that's all they are here for.  If they have to fill your feeds or headlines with flat out rejected/disproven conspiracy theories, that's what they'll do.  They are farming you for your time.  Time is money to them and they'll do whatever they can to get as much of your time as possible.  If all you're seeing is the things above, it's because you are demanding it because that's what you focus on and these companies know that.  They are giving you what you are asking to see via your behavior.  The sooner people realize that and move on from those sources, the better.   I'm not holding my breath

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

@timschochet

The answer to your question is whether or not the democrats learned from their mistake in 2009.   While lots of folks will argue that the 2010 midterm was a referendum on ObamaCare I think one can argue that really it was a vote that the 2009 stimulus was too small and people were still hurting too much.  I doubt that there is time to have a great 2022 economy as I think most of the damage is still unrealized, but can the democrats pump enough into the economy that people see the light at the end of tunnel?  I doubt they will.  

 

[Insein]

Fact Checking the Biden Administration on Covid