What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Why Denise Rich Gave Up U.S. Citizenship (1 Viewer)

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Why Denise Rich Gave Up U.S. Citizenship

Another wealthy American has given up U.S. citizenship and the taxes that go with it: Denise Rich, the Grammy-award-nominated songwriter and ex-wife of commodities trader Marc Rich. Rich’s maiden name, Denise Eisenberg, appeared in the Federal Register on April 30 on a quarterly list giving the names of those who turned in their passports or green cards. The next list is scheduled to be released on July 30.

Rich, 68 years old, wrote “Frankie,” a mid-eighties hit for Sister Sledge. She also has written songs recorded by Aretha Frankin and Mary J. Blige (“Don’t Waste Your Time”), Natalie Cole, Chaka Khan, Celine Dion, Diana Ross and Jessica Simpson.

In 2001 President Bill Clinton granted Mr. Rich, who at the time was a fugitive wanted for U.S. tax fraud and issues involving illicit oil trading with Iran, a pardon on his last day in office. Critics charged that the pardon was in exchange for Denise Rich’s substantial donations to President and Ms. Clinton’s campaigns and to the Democratic party.

A spokesperson for Denise Rich said that she expatriated in order to be closer to her longtime life partner, Peter Cervinka, as well as her friends and family. She will be an Austrian citizen. Her deceased father, Emil Eisenberg, was a refugee from Hitler’s Germany who became a wealthy shoe manufacturer in Worcester, Mass., where Rich grew up.

Rich is not alone in giving up her U.S. citizenship: In 2011, nearly 1,800 people renounced their U.S. citizenship or residency, a sixfold increase from 2008. In May, a furor erupted after it was revealed that Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin had renounced his citizenship ahead of Facebook’s public offering, saving himself millions in taxes.

Experts say the increase in expatriations comes in part because of the Internal Revenue Service’s crackdown on undeclared and untaxed foreign holdings of U.S. taxpayers. Unlike many countries, the U.S. taxes citizens and residents on their worldwide income, but the rules were loosely enforced for many years. That changed after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, and, separately, evidence that giant Swiss bank UBS and other offshore providers were encouraging U.S. taxpayers to hide assets abroad.

Bryan Skarlatos, an attorney at Kostelanetz & Fink in New York, says that if Rich has extensive foreign holdings, “she just may not want to pay U.S. tax on that income.”

A spokesperson refused to comment on Rich’s holdings.

The exodus from the U.S. may also be intensifying because of the prospect of higher tax rates next year. Even if Congress extends current tax rates for a year or two, a new 3.8% tax on investment income for most couples with adjusted gross income above $250,000 ($200,000 for singles) will take effect in order to help pay for the heath-care overhaul.

In order to leave in good standing, Rich will owe exit taxes. U.S. citizens and residents who expatriate are treated as though they sold all their property the day before they renounce, even if they will continue to own it and pay property or other federal, state or local taxes. Capital gains are taxed at the current top rate of 15%, and some assets (such as individual retirement accounts) are subject to tax at ordinary income rates as high as 35%.

Expatriates-to-be also have to show proof of tax compliance for five years, and may have trouble re-entering the U.S. without a visa. (For more details on the consequences of expatriation, click here.)

Earlier this year, Rich was involved in a legal action over a Cook Islands trust she established in 1992. The Cook Islands is a country comprising 15 South Pacific Islands that is known for its strong asset-protection laws, according to attorney Jim Duggan of Duggan Bertsch in Chicago, who advises high-net-worth clients. U.S. taxpayers who want to protect $1 million or more from creditors often turn to the Cook Islands or the island of Nevis in the Caribbean, among others, he says. Such moves are legal, says Duggan, as long as the taxpayers aren’t avoiding current creditors and pay all U.S. taxes they owe.

In Rich’s case, she was sued by the “protector” of her trust—who, along with the trustee, looks out for the interests of beneficiaries—because he believed she had improperly “transferred, moved, or secreted” trust assets in a way that was presumably in violation of the trust agreement. The complaint did not reveal the amount of the trust assets, but said they were “in danger of being secreted or dissipated.”

The case was dismissed without prejudice in mid-April by a U.S. District Court judge in South Florida—after a settlement, according to Rich’s spokesperson.
 
A spokesperson for Denise Rich said that she expatriated in order to be closer to her longtime life partner, Peter Cervinka, as well as her friends and family. She will be an Austrian citizen. Her deceased father, Emil Eisenberg, was a refugee from Hitler’s Germany who became a wealthy shoe manufacturer in Worcester, Mass., where Rich grew up.
:shrug:
 
I didn't hear her complaining when her BFF raised income tax rates and had them apply retroactively. I guess it was fine so long as she could shelter her piles of money offshore.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You posted an article about some nobody that gave up her citizenship to be closer to her life partner in Austria? If you're implying that she left to avoid paying taxes, aren't taxes in Austria even worse then ours? And boo ####### hoo if people want to leave the US b/c we started enforcing taxes in 2001 that have been on the books for years.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rich is not alone in giving up her U.S. citizenship: In 2011, nearly 1,800 people renounced their U.S. citizenship or residency, a sixfold increase from 2008.
It's obviously Bush's fault.
Why would that be anybody's "fault?" And what's the point in only referencing 2008? Why not cite an average if you're only going to use one other number for a comparison. Oh, that's right, then people like you wouldn't react like you just did. WGAF where this pig is going?
 
Rich is not alone in giving up her U.S. citizenship: In 2011, nearly 1,800 people renounced their U.S. citizenship or residency, a sixfold increase from 2008.
It's obviously Bush's fault.
Why would that be anybody's "fault?" And what's the point in only referencing 2008? Why not cite an average if you're only going to use one other number for a comparison. Oh, that's right, then people like you wouldn't react like you just did. WGAF where this pig is going?
:pokey:
 
So she's given huge political donations to politicians that have promised to raise taxes on the rich and then leaves when it happens?

If that's actually her reason, she should be forced to stay to reap what she's sown.

 
Rich is not alone in giving up her U.S. citizenship: In 2011, nearly 1,800 people renounced their U.S. citizenship or residency, a sixfold increase from 2008.
It's obviously Bush's fault.
Why would that be anybody's "fault?" And what's the point in only referencing 2008? Why not cite an average if you're only going to use one other number for a comparison. Oh, that's right, then people like you wouldn't react like you just did. WGAF where this pig is going?
I have seen 1100 people a year as an average quoted from State Dept sources. But no one seems to be willing to give official numbers.
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.

 
Rich is not alone in giving up her U.S. citizenship: In 2011, nearly 1,800 people renounced their U.S. citizenship or residency, a sixfold increase from 2008.
It's obviously Bush's fault.
Why would that be anybody's "fault?" And what's the point in only referencing 2008? Why not cite an average if you're only going to use one other number for a comparison. Oh, that's right, then people like you wouldn't react like you just did. WGAF where this pig is going?
I have seen 1100 people a year as an average quoted from State Dept sources. But no one seems to be willing to give official numbers.
Close the floodgates!
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
I am on record as being a Fair Tax person. I am also on record as saying Americans shouldn't pay double tax on foreign income. We should look at the rate paid in the country of origin and then discount the US rate based on that. In other words if you pay 20% where your money originated then you would only owe the US 5% on top of that as an example. If you already paid more than your rate here you owe nothing. But if you pay zero than you owe the full percentage whatever it would be. Still this is what we got to work with for now.
 
So she's given huge political donations to politicians that have promised to raise taxes on the rich and then leaves when it happens?If that's actually her reason, she should be forced to stay to reap what she's sown.
The article actually gives a reason totally unrelated to taxes as the reason for her leaving, and then goes on to speculate that other people are leaving because of enforcement of the U.S. Tax code and possible future taxes. Of course, people seeking to legally enter the U.S. and pay taxes here outweigh those leaving by 100 to 1 or more.
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
People are too lazy to educate themselves on the tax code. If everyone were using the loopholes, it would get fixed quickly. I'm not sure anyone's defending it, but I agree that the talk about the rate is foolish and short sighted when there are so many ways to avoid it.
 
this is great red meat. Clinton scandal? Check. Her name is literally "rich"? Check. She is leaving the country over something vaguely related to taxes? Check. Something something iran? Check.

I'd love to see more from the website where you found this article but you didn't post a link.

 
this is great red meat. Clinton scandal? Check. Her name is literally "rich"? Check. She is leaving the country over something vaguely related to taxes? Check. Something something iran? Check. I'd love to see more from the website where you found this article but you didn't post a link.
A "favorable" 2008 statistic that the copy/paste crowd can hop on? It's a horribly written piece. Once again a source's agenda muddies the water of what is a relevant dialogue.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can't imagine being rich enough that you could get in trouble with the law, hire the best lawyers available, lose, and then decide to pay off a president to get a pardon. It wouldn't even occur to me. Id be more likely to buy phillip morris. This is why I probably wont be a billionaire.

 
I thought I knew the point of this thread, but the more I read the more I'm in doubt. At this point, I have no real idea if the point was to rail on the tax code, the individual leaving the country or a terrible attempt at an "example" of what will happen should the tax breaks not be extended.

 
this is great red meat. Clinton scandal? Check. Her name is literally "rich"? Check. She is leaving the country over something vaguely related to taxes? Check. Something something iran? Check. I'd love to see more from the website where you found this article but you didn't post a link.
And if this were a rightie, you'd be on it like flies on crap.
 
this is great red meat. Clinton scandal? Check. Her name is literally "rich"? Check. She is leaving the country over something vaguely related to taxes? Check. Something something iran? Check. I'd love to see more from the website where you found this article but you didn't post a link.
It is from a WSJ blog, shockingly.
 
I thought I knew the point of this thread, but the more I read the more I'm in doubt. At this point, I have no real idea if the point was to rail on the tax code, the individual leaving the country or a terrible attempt at an "example" of what will happen should the tax breaks not be extended.
My wife started telling me something about "it" not working last night, going into fairly lengthy detail about why it wouldn't and how long it hadn't been. When she was finished, I asked her what in the world she was talking about. Turned out she was picking up a conversation that we had been having hours before and was annoyed with me that I hadn't been reading her mind, "communicating," she called it. Chad's OP makes the same kind of mistake.
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
I am on record as being a Fair Tax person. I am also on record as saying Americans shouldn't pay double tax on foreign income. We should look at the rate paid in the country of origin and then discount the US rate based on that. In other words if you pay 20% where your money originated then you would only owe the US 5% on top of that as an example. If you already paid more than your rate here you owe nothing. But if you pay zero than you owe the full percentage whatever it would be. Still this is what we got to work with for now.
I believe that is the way it works right now. The problem is that we are about the only developed country that taxes individuals on their world wide income. If you live in Austria, and make money in Austria, you will be taxed on that money in Austria, and the US will not add tax because the Austrian tax rate is higher than the US tax rate. But if you live in Austria and make money in the Cayman Islands, or Switzerland, or Dubai (for example) Austria will not tax it. If you are a US citizen, the US will tax it.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.

 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
Vienna is a cool town. I wouldn't mind living there.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
According to NCC's State Dept. numbers above, about .0005% of the population renounces its citizenship every year. That's not bad considering there are lots of other fine places in the world in which to reside.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
Screw her.
 
Oh and on the domestic side it should be understood the tax cut for the first 250k of income applies to everyone. Even the wealthy. This will result in about 20k in cuts still going to the wealthy. So it isn't like they aren't still getting a discount.
I am sure she considered that when she handed in her passport. How in the world does anyone defend our broken tax system? I just will never get that. Talking about the rate while ignoring that the entire thing is a wreck is just :wall:
Screw her.
A little long in the tooth for that. She's 68.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
Why care where 1800 out of 313M choose to live? There are other nice places in the world. It's not inconceivable that there are those who might find them preferable to the US. Especially, with the Idiocracy traits continuing to increase.
 
I am on record as being a Fair Tax person. I am also on record as saying Americans shouldn't pay double tax on foreign income. We should look at the rate paid in the country of origin and then discount the US rate based on that. In other words if you pay 20% where your money originated then you would only owe the US 5% on top of that as an example. If you already paid more than your rate here you owe nothing. But if you pay zero than you owe the full percentage whatever it would be. Still this is what we got to work with for now.
I believe that is the way it works right now. The problem is that we are about the only developed country that taxes individuals on their world wide income. If you live in Austria, and make money in Austria, you will be taxed on that money in Austria, and the US will not add tax because the Austrian tax rate is higher than the US tax rate. But if you live in Austria and make money in the Cayman Islands, or Switzerland, or Dubai (for example) Austria will not tax it. If you are a US citizen, the US will tax it.
Yes, this is effectively correct. The US citizen would be taxed normally on the worldwide income regardless of where it was earned. Say hypothetically that the person's US tax rate is 30% and they make $1,000 from foreign sources. The hypothetical Austria rate is 40% and the hypothetical Cayman rate is 10%. The US citizen is liable for $300 of US income tax ($1,000 x 30%). If it is Austrian income, the entire balance will be wiped out by a foreign tax credit, and they will have $100 ($400 tax paid less $300 credit) to use in the future to offset taxes on Austrian income. If it is Cayman income, the US citizen would be liable for $200 of US tax ($300 liability less $100 taxes paid to Cayman Islands). HTH
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
Maybe some people have been living here because taxes had something to do with it.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
Maybe some people have been living here because taxes had something to do with it.
That statement fits the speculative and vague nature of this thread.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
Maybe some people have been living here because taxes had something to do with it.
That statement fits the speculative and vague nature of this thread.
Not possible?
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
Maybe some people have been living here because taxes had something to do with it.
That statement fits the speculative and vague nature of this thread.
Not possible?
Absolutely possible. Pretty hard to quantify and make relevant to the thread, though. Of course, I'm still pretty confused as to what the point of this thread is.
 
Why not focus on why people are getting fed up with America? Eventually the folks here will get mad and either choose something else or migrate elsewhere. We are starting to accept the global community idea more and more.
I'd rather live in another country but taxes have nothing to do with it.
Maybe some people have been living here because taxes had something to do with it.
That statement fits the speculative and vague nature of this thread.
Not possible?
Absolutely possible. Pretty hard to quantify and make relevant to the thread, though. Of course, I'm still pretty confused as to what the point of this thread is.
I believe the point is that even the rich crowd has people who take their ball and go home.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top