Why does FBG use 4 pt for passing TD's? (1 Viewer)

[Liquid Tension]

Everytime I see rankings by FBG and they use 4 pts for TD's in all of them, I get miffed (cleaning this up for the young ones...)

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

So why in the world do you guys do this?

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I get miffed when people get miffed over 4pt TDs. There's no real reason for it to be 4 OR 6.

I understand the game from a statistical standpoint and I think 4pt TDs >>>> 6pt TDs. In fact, I'd do that across the board for all positions, not just QBs.

 

[cws3030]

Everytime I see rankings by FBG and they use 4 pts for TD's in all of them, I get miffed (cleaning this up for the young ones...)

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

So why in the world do you guys do this?

do teams score 12 points when they score a "real" td. they don't so why should both a qb and wr each recieve 6 in fantasy points.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I play in both types of leagues. I probably prefer 6pts for all TDs, but I can understand the reasons for making passing TDs worth fewer points.

I'm guessing that there are considerably more passing TDs each year than there are rushing TDs, so they are weighted a little less. Also, with a passing TD, you have the QB and the receiver both getting points from the same play compared to a rushing TD when just 1 player gets all the points.

 

[fosio]

Why not have rushing TDs worth 6, then passing & receiving TD's worth 3? Then if you're an owner with the WR/QB combo you get the full 6.

I play in both types of leagues. I probably prefer 6pts for all TDs, but I can understand the reasons for making passing TDs worth fewer points.

I'm guessing that there are considerably more passing TDs each year than there are rushing TDs, so they are weighted a little less. Also, with a passing TD, you have the QB and the receiver both getting points from the same play compared to a rushing TD when just 1 player gets all the points.

 

[CalBear]

There was a long thread on this earlier in the season, and unfortunately the search function is pretty much worthless for finding things.

In that thread, Wimer, I think, said that there is too much work that would go into changing it for this year, but they'd consider it for next year, since most polls have shown a plurality or majority of leagues using 6 point TDs.

 

[ookook]

It really makes VERY VERY little difference in leagues that do not inculde flex positions.

The correlation between the rank of QBs under two systems is like .98 or something silly. Ditto for overall ranking across positions.

Of course, in 6 pt passing TDs interceptions really have to be -2.

 

[lebowski]

Just enter your own league variables into Draft Dominator. That is what it is there for. I'm not convinced the "most" people use 4pts for QB's TDs anyway.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I think we recently asked MFL what % of their leagues use 6pts or 4pts and there really wasn't a clear preference. Leagues still seem pretty split on this, along with whether or not to award points for receptions.

 

[Chaka]

Everytime I see rankings by FBG and they use 4 pts for TD's in all of them, I get miffed (cleaning this up for the young ones...)

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

It is?In line with what? Value relative to another player at a different position?

If you want to increase the value of QBs in your league then start two of them.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think passing TDs should be worth 6 pts. Also, rushing/receiving TDs should be worth 9 pts; and you should get one point for each 6.67 rush/rec yards, and one point for each 13.33 passing yards.

More seriously, this is something we'll be considering for next offseason. There's some evidence that 6-pt leagues have become more popular than 4-pt leagues (which is different from a few years ago), and we will take a look at this for next year. As ookook pointed out, though, it usually doesn't make a huge differenece. It changes Vick's ranking by a few spots, but most other QBs are ranked pretty much the same in either system.

 

[David Dodds]

Up until this year the data has always told us that most leagues use 4 pts for a passing TD. Data this year said 6 points is the new standard. But it's a HUGE change for us to redo all the databases. So this discussion is tabled for the offseason for us.

 

[nerangers]

Maybe I could get my dynasty league to change there scoring to match. We only get 3 pts for passing TDs, but 6 pts if it is over 50 yds. Makes those QBs that rush for TDs worth more with the 6 pts. Can you say Michael Vick!

I guess what I am saying is that there is no right value for a standard unless you follow the nfl and reward 6 pts.

 

[dapunisher]

The things that people decide to get miffed over never ceases to amuse me.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

The things that people decide to get miffed over never ceases to amuse me.

Posts like this get me miffed.

 

[jbz]

I've always used 4 points for passing to balance out the number of TDs a QBs throw versus the number of TDs a RB/WR/TE can run or catch. I look at it like this, a bad to average year for a starting QB throwing TDs would be what, 12? 14? All the way up to 16-18 would be considered average or even less. Now if a RB or WR scored that many TDs, that season would be considered very good at least. It's the same as why we give QB 1 pt for every 20 or 25 yards passing instead of the 1 for 10 that the other positions get.

 

[TheLaw]

I've always used 4 points for passing to balance out the number of TDs a QBs throw versus the number of TDs a RB/WR/TE can run or catch. I look at it like this, a bad to average year for a starting QB throwing TDs would be what, 12? 14? All the way up to 16-18 would be considered average or even less. Now if a RB or WR scored that many TDs, that season would be considered very good at least. It's the same as why we give QB 1 pt for every 20 or 25 yards passing instead of the 1 for 10 that the other positions get.

Still 4pt in all my leagues.

 

[Yah_Shoor_Yoobetchya]

The things that people decide to get miffed over never ceases to amuse me.

Posts like this get me miffed.

miffed = afflicted, agitated, antsy, anxious, basket case*, bothered, bugged, bummed out*, concerned, cut up*, discombobulated*, disconsolate, distracted, distrait, distraught, dragged, exercised, fidgety, harassed, hyper*, inconsolable, jittery, jumpy, peeved, perturbed, ripped*, saddened, shaky, shook*, shook up*, shot down*, spooked*, strung out*, tormented, troubled, unconsolable, unglued*, uptight*, wired, worried, wreck, wretched* = informal or slang

 

[Wingnut]

Up until this year the data has always told us that most leagues use 4 pts for a passing TD. Data this year said 6 points is the new standard. But it's a HUGE change for us to redo all the databases. So this discussion is tabled for the offseason for us.

I think its a move in the right direction if you decide to go that way next year.

 

[Armando]

Never understood it either, but the league I'm in uses 4 as the passing TD value.

Doesn't really make sense to devalue QB's when they are the most important offensive position on the field & the fact the majority of leagues only start 1 (vs. 2-3 RB & 3-4 WR)

 

[bjabrad]

I've always used 4 points for passing to balance out the number of TDs a QBs throw versus the number of TDs a RB/WR/TE can run or catch.  I look at it like this, a bad to average year for a starting QB throwing TDs would be what, 12? 14? All the way up to 16-18 would be considered average or even less. Now if a RB or WR scored that many TDs, that season would be considered very good at least.  It's the same as why we give QB 1 pt for every 20 or 25 yards passing instead of the 1 for 10 that the other positions get.

Still 4pt in all my leagues.

I agree as well. I like a balance scoring league not just a QB contest on Sunday or else I'd throw out all the other player positions. Boost it up to 6 pts and you have 10 QB's flying off the draft board in the first round, a crappy draft and no fun in my book.Makes me wonder if the popularity of all these 6 pt QB leagues is simply the growth of the sport with all the newbies just leaving the Yahoo settings on default.

 

[CalBear]

I agree as well. I like a balance scoring league not just a QB contest on Sunday or else I'd throw out all the other player positions. Boost it up to 6 pts and you have 10 QB's flying off the draft board in the first round, a crappy draft and no fun in my book.

Makes me wonder if the popularity of all these 6 pt QB leagues is simply the growth of the sport with all the newbies just leaving the Yahoo settings on default.

Even in leagues with 6 point TDs for QBs, at most two QBs go in the first two rounds. It's absolutely ridiculous to be against 6 point TDs because of their effect on QB value.

 

[jbz]

I see your point regarding QB value, but then why not making QB passing yards 1 pt every 10 yards as well if you're going to score all TDs equally? QBs accumulate TDs and yards at a much higher rate then RB/WR/TE do. I'd assume you'd have to keep them somewhat at par with each other (at least that's what my leagues try to accomplish) by leveling the scoring. Thus 4 pts a passing TD and 1 pt per 25 yards passing.

* disclaimer* If your league has only 1 starting QB, then their value still remains in the middle portion of your draft. But in leagues like mine where QBs can be a flex spot, softening their scoring is a neccesity.

 

[Pots]

Everytime I see rankings by FBG and they use 4 pts for TD's in all of them, I get miffed (cleaning this up for the young ones...)

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

So why in the world do you guys do this?

Sorry, but 6 points is the rarity and adds too much emphasis on TDs than yards unless yards are calibrated otherwise. 4 pts gives a great balance.

 

[J-Money]

the top 10 touchdown td throwers last year were within 12 td's of eachother and were generally within 700 yds of eachother (Brunell stunk it up with 1050yds less). that's .75 tds and 43 yds a game more.

the difference in #1 td rusher and #10 was 16 tds with rushing yardage ranging from 1800+ to bettis' 368, or since i wanted to discount brunell the next lowest yardage was 549 for stephen davis.

even with all td's being 6 pts i'd much rather have a couple of rb's that i know i can rely on knowing i can get a qb later who won't be so far off the pace of the leader*

*That is unless manning throws for nearly 50 td's again

 

[Post Corner]

MOST prefer? I don't think so. While I am with you and like 6 pts for QB TD passes if only require 1 QB start, "most" does not apply. Unfortunately we are in the minority relative to general fantasy football consensus across the land.

 

[BlueOnion]

Everytime I see rankings by FBG and they use 4 pts for TD's in all of them, I get miffed (cleaning this up for the young ones...)

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

So why in the world do you guys do this?

I am always miffed why people want to award points for touchdowns. I would rather play in a league that only scores yardage.

 

[Wingnut]

I like a balance scoring league not just a QB contest on Sunday or else I'd throw out all the other player positions. Boost it up to 6 pts and you have 10 QB's flying off the draft board in the first round, a crappy draft and no fun in my book.

Not necessarily true. My league gives 6 for ALL Tds, and over the last 5 years, people have began to understand that QB value can be had later in the draft. 6 or 7 years ago by the end of the 3rd round there was usually 10 or so Qbs taken....but since then, there has been a trend that shows that they understand that QB value still exists and more and more guys are waiting to take their QB ....Sure, Qbs go a bit earlier than the 3pt or 4pt TD pass, but not rediculously earlier...Over the last 3 years, heres how many QBs have been taken thru the following rounds in my 12 team, serpentine league:

Qbs taken thru 2 rounds

2003: 3

2004: 2

2005: 2

2006: I project only one QB will be taken thru 2 rounds (Manning)

Qbs taken thru 4 rounds

2003: 10

2004: 6

2005: 5

2006: I project that 4 will be taken (Manning, Hass, Palmer and maybe Brady)

Qbs taken thru 6 rounds

2003: 15

2004: 12

2005: 9

2006: I think the trend continues and maybe 7 or 8 are gone at this point

So, even though its a 6pt for TD pass league, I can wait till round 6 or 7 and still get a top 7-8 QB, or a top 10 guy for sure. Alot of people think that just because TD passes are 6 points that QBs fly off the board, and its not always the case, especially in leagues where the owners understand the concept of value.

 

[CalBear]

In every poll that's been done here, more people are using 6 point TDs than 4 point.

 

[BlueOnion]

In every poll that's been done here, more people are using 6 point TDs than 4 point.

I always considered 4-points for a passing touchdown was by far the majority. However, after reading this thread I would be interested in seeing some numbers in a survey.However, user polls here at FBG carry about as much weight as Shanahan's opinion regarding Denver running backs.

 

[ImTheScientist]

In every poll that's been done here, more people are using 6 point TDs than 4 point.

You don't know that.... it may be that more people who vote in the polls are using 6 points. You need a much larger sample size then what usually shows up in these polls.

 

[ceo3west]

In every poll that's been done here, more people are using 6 point TDs than 4 point.

You don't know that.... it may be that more people who vote in the polls are using 6 points. You need a much larger sample size then what usually shows up in these polls.

My league is 4 points and Im a fan of it. 6 pt TD's give QB's to much weight. All positions should be balanced in my opinion. Even with 4 point TD's, starting fantasy QB's average more fantasy points than any other position assuming there are no other scoring system abnormalities.As for the arguement that the QB is the most important position in football so it should be considered so in fantasy, that goes out the window when you have to start 2 RB's. The RB automatically becomes the most important position in fantasy football in this case (again assuming a "normal" scoring system).

 

[joffer]

In every poll that's been done here, more people are using 6 point TDs than 4 point.

You don't know that.... it may be that more people who vote in the polls are using 6 points. You need a much larger sample size then what usually shows up in these polls.

i believe the staff also got some data from MFL that indicated a small majority to the 6 pt/TD crowd. although, i think that data didn't include a lot of leagues that used bonus for distance TDs, etc.

 

[Wingnut]

4pts for TD passes, I just dont get it. Why single out any particular position and give them less points???

And in those 4pt leagues, why do most of them still give 6pts to QBs that RUSH for a td?? All that does is make running QBs more valuable, and I dont get why. Who cares if the QB scores on the ground or through the air??

Why should a player like Culpepper be considered more valuable than Manning?? Doesnt make sense to me.

But I guess thats why Ill never play in a 4pt league, so I guess it doesnt matter. To each his own. Ive just never seen a sound argument for the 4pt rule.

 

[BlueOnion]

4pts for TD passes, I just dont get it. Why single out any particular position and give them less points???

And in those 4pt leagues, why do most of them still give 6pts to QBs that RUSH for a td?? All that does is make running QBs more valuable, and I dont get why. Who cares if the QB scores on the ground or through the air??

Why should a player like Culpepper be considered more valuable than Manning?? Doesnt make sense to me.

But I guess thats why Ill never play in a 4pt league, so I guess it doesnt matter. To each his own. Ive just never seen a sound argument for the 4pt rule.

Typical good quarterback day on Sunday, 3 passing touchdowns.Typical good running back day on Sunday, 2 rushing touchdowns.

Awarding 4 points for a passing touchdown makes a quarterback's peformance who threw 3 touchdowns 00.00% more impressive than a running back who rushed for two touchdowns.

Awarding 6 points for a passing touchdown makes a quarterback's peformance who threw 3 touchdowns 33.33% more impressive than a running back who rushed for two touchdowns.

 

[joffer]

And in those 4pt leagues, why do most of them still give 6pts to QBs that RUSH for a td??

because there's another player besides the QB getting points for a TD pass

 

[posty]

My league counts passing TDs as 3 points...

Whatever makes you happy, go with it...

 

[ookook]

Would the folks who thinks it makes much difference PLEASE produce some data that say so?

Because it really really does not do much to relative value across positions. I fiddles A LITTLE BIT within, depending on whether INTs are also changed to -2.

Show me data about the relative value of QBs being raised.

 

[joffer]

Would the folks who thinks it makes much difference PLEASE produce some data that say so?

Because it really really does not do much to relative value across positions. I fiddles A LITTLE BIT within, depending on whether INTs are also changed to -2.

Show me data about the relative value of QBs being raised.

i just posted this in another thread. not exactly what you're looking for, but:from 1996 to 2005, the average difference between QB1 and QB10 is

A - 25yd/pt, 6pts/TD, -2 per INT: 391 - 261 = 130 points

B - 20yd/pt, 4pts/TD, -1 per INT: 373 - 263 = 110 points

unfortunately those are the only two scoring systems for QBs that i have data for

 

[QUEZILLA]

5 down?

 

[ookook]

Across the top 329 NFL players from last year

The correlation between fantasy points with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .997.

The correlation between VBD with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .998.

The correlation between rank with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .999.

 

[Marc Levin]

It seems that most of the time when I get into a good conversation with people who understand the game from a statistical standpoint (as well as what a real TD is worth as it makes sense) it is agreed that 6 pts a TD makes the QB's value in line from a value standpoint rather than an afterthought.

Link?

 

[ookook]

Selecting out the top 52 QBs only:

The correlation between fantasy points with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and

-2/INT is .999.

The correlation between VBD with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .999.

The correlation between rank with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .998.

Which part of this do you not understand?

Adding a value that is fairly constant has little effect on the rank or relative value no matter how you slice it.

 

[Marc Levin]

Selecting out the top 52 QBs only:

The correlation between fantasy points with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and

-2/INT is .999.

The correlation between VBD with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .999.

The correlation between rank with 4 per TD -1/INT and 6 per TD and -2 /INT is .998.

Which part of this do you not understand?

Adding a value that is fairly constant has little effect on the rank or relative value no matter how you slice it.

Exactly correct.That said, it makes QBs values fluctuate AGAINST OTHER QBS - the runners become less valuable, the passers become more valuable, Maning becomes an even BETTER investment.

That's the ONLY effect 4 versus 6 points for Pass TDs. It's a basic principle of valuing players - to not understand that is to not understand how value works.

Make passing TDs worth 1500 points, who cares? It won't affect value.

 

[joffer]

Which part of this do you not understand?

what you're arguing and who you're arguing against?i thought the point of the thread was why FBG uses one vs. the other as their "Standard" scoring, not how it affects QB value.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Boost it up to 6 pts and you have 10 QB's flying off the draft board in the first round, a crappy draft and no fun in my book.

Makes me wonder if the popularity of all these 6 pt QB leagues is simply the growth of the sport with all the newbies just leaving the Yahoo settings on default.

Well, you might have 10 QBs flying off the board in Rd #1, but that wouldn't make it the right thing to do (see: a bunch of posts in this thread about how that changes relative value very little). Other than that, why would 10 QBs flying off the board be any worse than 10 RBs?As for the "newbie" argument for the popularity of 6 pt passing leagues, hie thyself over to a Zealots League. They have some of the best & most experienced FF players around (including dozens from this board) in them and guess what? 6pt passing TDs.

 

[ookook]

Joffer,

Generally when one uses the seond-person singular, one is addressing the originator of the post.

What I was aruging was that it just doesn't matter whether QBs get 4 or 6 pts.

Are you caught up yet as far as what I was arguing and who it was with?

-OOKOOK!

 

[Marc Levin]

Which part of this do you not understand?

what you're arguing and who you're arguing against?i thought the point of the thread was why FBG uses one vs. the other as their "Standard" scoring, not how it affects QB value.

good question.And the answer is "because."

There is no real answer - I can say that it has been our standard scoring for a multitude of years, it is how David does his projections, and it is how we have figured out the EOY and PPG fantasy rankings (which go into our statistics that we provide on every player).

Therefore, it is NOT going to change anytime soon, unless we update ALL our prior stats (fat chance).

 

[joffer]

Generally when one uses the seond-person singular, one is addressing the originator of the post.

i'll file that one away. kinda like a Joe Horn thing.

 

[Marc Levin]

Boost it up to 6 pts and you have 10 QB's flying off the draft board in the first round, a crappy draft and no fun in my book.

Makes me wonder if the popularity of all these 6 pt QB leagues is simply the growth of the sport with all the newbies just leaving the Yahoo settings on default.

Well, you might have 10 QBs flying off the board in Rd #1, but that wouldn't make it the right thing to do (see: a bunch of posts in this thread about how that changes relative value very little). Other than that, why would 10 QBs flying off the board be any worse than 10 RBs?As for the "newbie" argument for the popularity of 6 pt passing leagues, hie thyself over to a Zealots League. They have some of the best & most experienced FF players around (including dozens from this board) in them and guess what? 6pt passing TDs.

and, yes, check out ther zealots - the best drafters from this board are in leagues over there.