Why I Am A Conservative (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

A long time ago Friedrich Hayek wrote a famous essay entitled "Why I Am Not A Conservative." It has bothered me to this day. I am one. I believe inherited wisdom is preserved in systems we can't get our head around, which Hayek agreed with. But he got utopian. 

Look, the last millennium has been mayhem and killing outside of political systems that recognize humanity for what it is. What is wrong with being conservative?  

Here's the original essay that troubled me so much:

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/hayek-why-i-am-not-conservative.pdf

 

[Chaka]

A long time ago Friedrich Hayek wrote a famous essay entitled "Why I Am Not A Conservative." It has bothered me to this day. I am one. I believe inherited wisdom is preserved in systems we can't get our head around, which Hayek agreed with. But he got utopian. 

Look, the last millennium has been mayhem and killing outside of political systems that recognize humanity for what it is. What is wrong with being conservative?  

Here's the original essay that troubled me so much:

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/hayek-why-i-am-not-conservative.pdf

Would you unpack that statement a little bit?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Because you hate those ####### hippie freaks that are always protesting something instead of getting a job? 

 

[Thunderlips]

TLDR...

I don't think there's a lot wrong with wanting to be a conservative. I think there's a lot of Conservatives today who are hypocrites in their A) adonishment of Big Government and its value in helping Americans AFTER many of them reaped the rewards of Big Government and B) their hypocritical nature in regards to preaching against those whom they feel social deviants.

To me, they get called out more of their hypocrisy than their ideals. 

 

[Punchie]

I came in here hoping that you would explain why you are a conservative. Instead all I got was that you were troubled with someone that clearly expressed why they were not one. Odd. 

 

[rockaction]

That's a great statement. What I mean is that people are generally awful to each other when it comes to shared resources, shared anything, really. They're selfish. They don't play well with others. Conservatism, in its Lockean form, sought to address the state of nature as he saw it. I think he was right. 

I love those hippie freaks, by the way.  

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I came in here hoping that you would explain why you are a conservative. Instead all I got was that you were troubled with someone that clearly expressed why they were not one. Odd. 

How dare you not be tolerant of someone who isn't tolerant.

 

[rockaction]

I came in here hoping that you would explain why you are a conservative. Instead all I got was that you were troubled with someone that clearly expressed why they were not one. Odd. 

Hey, I'll write the manifesto later. 

And is anything more conservative than denying someone else's claim to pure liberty? 

Ahem, I'll be around.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

My fervent wish is that one in ten of those who brand themselves conservative actually were. They are mostly reactionary, toothpaste-tube molesters who want to know precisely what to think and are defined by their clubs (tribes), including a collective of greedy kneejerks manipulated by Big Money called "The Conservatives".

 

[rockaction]

My fervent wish is that one in ten of those who brand themselves conservative actually were. They are mostly reactionary, toothpaste-tube molesters who want to know precisely what to think and are defined by their clubs (tribes), including a collective of greedy kneejerks manipulated by Big Money called "The Conservatives".

Yeah, that's fair. But true conservatives hang on inherited wisdom and folklore a bit. That doesn't seem so off. That's what Hayek was writing about but got wrong. If you believe in inherited wisdom, then you're bound a bit by tradition. 

 

[Da Guru]

TLDR...

I don't think there's a lot wrong with wanting to be a conservative. I think there's a lot of Conservatives today who are hypocrites in their A) adonishment of Big Government and its value in helping Americans AFTER many of them reaped the rewards of Big Government and B) their hypocritical nature in regards to preaching against those whom they feel social deviants.

To me, they get called out more of their hypocrisy than their ideals. 

I truly think there are plenty of hypocrites on both sides to go around. For most in government it is "Do as I say, not as I do"

 

[rockaction]

In other words, tradition has a codified logic in it. It's years of experience vs. pure reason. Reason always wins in theory; wisdom always wins in practice.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

Yeah, that's fair. But true conservatives hang on inherited wisdom and folklore a bit. That doesn't seem so off. That's what Hayek was writing about but got wrong. If you believe in inherited wisdom, then you're bound a bit by tradition. 

oh, i dont read #### by laureates. you're going to have to wait for my opinion on that til after Longhorn explains it to us....

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I came in here hoping that you would explain why you are a conservative. Instead all I got was that you were troubled with someone that clearly expressed why they were not one. Odd. 

Apophatic reasoning may be at play here.

 

[skol asylum]

Is inherited wisdom another word for institutional bias?

 

[rockaction]

oh, i dont read #### by laureates. you're going to have to wait for my opinion on that til after Leghorn explains it to us....

Heh. Yeah, wikkid.   

Is inherited wisdom another word for institutional bias?

Well, no, cap'n. It's the thousand years of human wisdom handed down, hand-made, hand-boiled in the fire. And there is a fire, just not sure where it comes from.    

 

[skol asylum]

Heh. Yeah, wikkid.   

Well, no, cap'n. It's the thousand years of human wisdom handed down, hand-made, hand-boiled in the fire. And there is a fire, just not sure where it comes from.    

The debil of course.

 

[rockaction]

The debil of course.

I meant the fire of life, which is weird how we can read things so differently. And that's my point. If we read things so differently, then...

 

[skol asylum]

I meant the fire of life, which is weird how we can read things so differently. And that's my point. If we read things so differently, then...

I know what you meant, I was just going for the humor.

 

[rockaction]

I know what you meant, I was just going for the humor.

Ah, okay. Such is life.    

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

oh, i dont read #### by laureates. you're going to have to wait for my opinion on that til after Longhorn explains it to us....

Don't look at me.

I deal in rationality and data. I am a pragmatist, with the heart of a pure libertarian, but the understanding that pure liberty is also impossible and/or dangerous. That actually puts me on a very different wavelength than a guy like rock, even though we may agree on some issues.

I try to have a coherent set of principles, but I am not a deep philosophical thinker and I am out of my depth in discussions with those who are.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Don't look at me.

I deal in rationality and data. I am a pragmatist, with the heart of a pure libertarian, but the understanding that pure liberty is also impossible and/or dangerous. That actually puts me on a very different wavelength than a guy like rock, even though we may agree on some issues.

I try to have a coherent set of principles, but I am not a deep philosophical thinker and I am out of my depth in discussions with those who are.

tl;dr

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What is wrong with being conservative?

Absolutely nothing, and it is a great intellectual tradition which is important to America's past and its future.

IMO I think true conservatism deserves more defending everywhere and what vexes me is that there are a lot of self-described 'conservatives' going around espousing many very Non-conservative things these days.

 

[rockaction]

Don't look at me.

I deal in rationality and data. I am a pragmatist, with the heart of a pure libertarian, but the understanding that pure liberty is also impossible and/or dangerous. That actually puts me on a very different wavelength than a guy like rock, even though we may agree on some issues.

I try to have a coherent set of principles, but I am not a deep philosophical thinker and I am out of my depth in discussions with those who are.

That was kinda deep in its non-depthness. So #### it. Just say what you mean, man.  Let's get all this #### on the table.  

 

[rockaction]

Absolutely nothing, and it is a great intellectual tradition which is important to America's past and its future.

IMO I think true conservatism deserves more defending everywhere and what vexes me is that there are a lot of self-described 'conservatives' going around espousing many very Non-conservative things these days.

I agree. I can't even wrap my head around NATO.  

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

That was kinda deep in its non-depthness. So #### it. Just say what you mean, man.  Let's get all this #### on the table.  

I am not a deep philosophical thinker and I am out of my depth in discussions with those who are.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jay-cutler-doesnt-care.png

 

[rockaction]

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jay-cutler-doesnt-care.png

 

[Punchie]

Absolutely nothing, and it is a great intellectual tradition which is important to America's past and its future.

IMO I think true conservatism deserves more defending everywhere and what vexes me is that there are a lot of self-described 'conservatives' going around espousing many very Non-conservative things these days.

Can we, as a fairly homogenized slice of the electorate, decide together what conservative principles are? 

Here's my take:

• Individual responsibility should be encouraged and rewarded
  
• Our rights, afforded to us by the constitution and its amendments, should be guaranteed
  
• Pay for an honest days' work should be enough to live a modest lifestyle (house, vehicle, schooling, healthcare, retirement)
  
• Our military should be used in ways that protect our citizens' interests
  

That's all I have so far but a reasonable starting point IMO. Notice I left religion off, as I do not see that as a core tenet. Also, there is purposeful ambiguity on all of them. 

thoughts?

 

[rockaction]

Can we, as a fairly homogenized slice of the electorate, decide together what conservative principles are? 

Here's my take:

• Individual responsibility should be encouraged and rewarded
  
• Our rights, afforded to us by the constitution and its amendments, should be guaranteed
  
• Pay for an honest days' work should be enough to live a modest lifestyle (house, vehicle, schooling, healthcare, retirement)
  
• Our military should be used in ways that protect our citizens' interests
  

That's all I have so far but a reasonable starting point IMO. Notice I left religion off, as I do not see that as a core tenant. Also, there is purposeful ambiguity on all of them. 

thoughts?

Is he a core tenant or is that a core tenet?    

 

[rockaction]

Oh, and Punchie is coming at me. 

How ya doing, mang?  

 

[Punchie]

Is a he core tenant or is that a core tenet?  .  

lol, ok will edit. I did mention education as important

 

[Punchie]

Oh, and Punchie is coming at me. 

How ya doing, mang?  

Hardly coming at ya, this is a topic I'm honestly interested in and you opened the door for a thoughtful discussion. 

 

[The General]

Liberal on most things but I agree with many conservative principles. Most of the guys running your party are awful.

 

[skol asylum]

Can we, as a fairly homogenized slice of the electorate, decide together what conservative principles are? 

Here's my take:

• Individual responsibility should be encouraged and rewarded
  
• Our rights, afforded to us by the constitution and its amendments, should be guaranteed
  
• Pay for an honest days' work should be enough to live a modest lifestyle (house, vehicle, schooling, healthcare, retirement)
  
• Our military should be used in ways that protect our citizens' interests
  

That's all I have so far but a reasonable starting point IMO. Notice I left religion off, as I do not see that as a core tenant. Also, there is purposeful ambiguity on all of them. 

thoughts?

The pay comment is interesting to me. I thought conservatives don't believe in guaranteeing outcomes?

 

[rockaction]

Punchie -- no sweat; didn't realize who you were.  

 

[Punchie]

The pay comment is interesting to me. I thought conservatives don't believe in guaranteeing outcomes?

And I thought conservatives championed the honest day's pay for honest day's work.   

The intent was to have a definition we could agree upon

 

[Jayrod]

Liberal on most things but I agree with many conservative principles. Most of the guys running your party are awful.

Most all politicians are awful.  Both parties are in a race to the bottom.  Republicans are winning at the moment, bigly.

 

[skol asylum]

Conservative in my mind has become synonymous with trickle down economics and corruption of government where the wealthy and connected protect and enrich each other at the expense of a healthy society. Being trickled on is not really that refreshing.

 

[Punchie]

Most all politicians are awful.  Both parties are in a race to the bottom.  Republicans are winning at the moment, bigly.

But Republican as a title is not necessarily equivalent to conservative as an ideology right? I think that's a different discussion. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Conservative in my mind has become synonymous with trickle down economics and corruption of government where the wealthy and connected protect and enrich each other at the expense of a healthy society. Being trickled on is not really that refreshing.

This isn't a discussion of current politics, but of political philosophy.

Keep in mind that rock is an unusual guy who thinks esoteric thoughts.

 

[rockaction]

Conservative in my mind has become synonymous with trickle down economics and corruption of government where the wealthy and connected protect and enrich each other at the expense of a healthy society. Being trickled on is not really that refreshing.

Fair, but we'd call that crony capitalism, which is at least on the Dems as it is on the Rs. Forget Dems and Rs. Let's talk politics in here.  

 

[skol asylum]

Now I will say there are certain conservative ideals which are great. The concepts of hard work, personal responsibility, etc.

 

[Black Box]

I've always felt that Conservatism is easier to define by what it is not, rather than what it is.

I'm not sure if that is a feature or a bug, but I think the philosophy probably suffers as a result.

 

[wikkidpissah]

First of all, using classicism to define the quantum madness of the modern explosion of personal liberty is naive unto feckless.

Conservatism might again have its day, simply because everything may indeed be moral after all, but it will find greater contest from fascism than it ever did from liberalism or socialism. The horses have not only all jumped the fences of institutional control, but each equine has its own artisan seed ranch by now. The con v lib fight is naught but TV sport anymore and America has already changed channels to watch fingernail ladies with prolims. It will take violence upon the populace to herd these cats again.

 

[Chaka]

TLDR...

I don't think there's a lot wrong with wanting to be a conservative. I think there's a lot of Conservatives today who are hypocrites in their A) adonishment of Big Government and its value in helping Americans AFTER many of them reaped the rewards of Big Government and B) their hypocritical nature in regards to preaching against those whom they feel social deviants.

To me, they get called out more of their hypocrisy than their ideals. 

I don't know. Point A seems a bit vague and I am sure a lot of liberals benefited the same. The preachiness really bothers me and in many ways feels very hypocritical. Lots of Jesus talk for condemnation but almost zero Jesus action when it comes to compassion (unless it involves dropping bombs, then they suddenly want to protect the helpless). The shift of the Republican away from sound fiscal policy towards religious absolutism is disheartening.

But for me, as a west coast fiscal conservative, what bothers me most, I think, is the inconsistent application of Federal vs States rights.  They just seem to be all over the map. Medical or recreational marijuana? Send in the Feds! Raping the environment? Nah, the states got it covered.  We either believe in limited government and letting the States determine their own paths or we don't. But what we have now is just a bunch of politically expedient, cronyism and agenda pushing with no guiding principles.

 

[rockaction]

First of all, using classicism to define the quantum madness of the modern explosion of personal liberty is naive unto feckless.

Conservatism might again have its day, simply because everything may indeed be moral after all, but it will find greater contest from fascism than it ever did from liberalism or socialism. The horses have not only all jumped the fences of institutional control, but each equine has its own artisan seed ranch by now. The con v lib fight is naught but TV sport anymore and America has already changed channels to watch fingernail ladies with prolims. It will take violence upon the populace to herd these cats again.

Morals are all we have. That is all. That is conservatism, in a nutshell. You may be a conservative, wikkid.   

 

[Jayrod]

Conservative in my mind has become synonymous with trickle down economics and corruption of government where the wealthy and connected protect and enrich each other at the expense of a healthy society. Being trickled on is not really that refreshing.

Trickle down economics aren't bad in theory.

The problem is that the motivation of the rich isn't to actually invest in new ventures and people, but they make the vast majority of their money just moving their money around. The stock market is gambling with the odds in your favor, not investing.  I've gotten to the point where I see IPO's as the end of a company's innovation and growth, not the beginning.

I think capital gains need higher tax rates.  Financial sectors will suffer, but every other sector will see gains as the wealthy will see true investment as more beneficial than just buying an asset off of an exchange and waiting for it to appreciate.

 

[Chaka]

Morals are all we have. That is all. That is conservatism, in a nutshell. You may be a conservative, wikkid.   

How are these morals defined nowadays?  Seems to me morality is used as an excuse to push an agenda more than a consistent application of any sort of defined moral code.

 

[skol asylum]

Morals are all we have. That is all. That is conservatism, in a nutshell. You may be a conservative, wikkid.   

But what is moral? And who decides? Morality seems to change over time. Slavery for example wasn't seen as immoral by many for a long time. Is conservativism then defined as someone holding onto morals established in the past but ignoring those that society has decided we're really immoral all along?

I've always taken issue with that trait of conservativism. There is a general attitude of moral superiority. But are you really interested in the morals themselves, or just in love with tradition?