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Why isn't Bush the best RB in the NFL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bri
- Start date
I saw this game
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200612030nor.htm
on TV and totally wanted to see Bush. It was his rookie year and he was very much like his USC highlights. He was that awesome in the NFL. It was a 4 TD game and the guy was just wow. It wasn't all that many touches, yet he hit paydirt four times.
Over time, I've sorta blown that off as those 49ers were about as good as a top college D.
My only point in bringing that up was that I'm not sure how fair it is to say his game doesn't translate to the NFL.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200612030nor.htm
on TV and totally wanted to see Bush. It was his rookie year and he was very much like his USC highlights. He was that awesome in the NFL. It was a 4 TD game and the guy was just wow. It wasn't all that many touches, yet he hit paydirt four times.
Over time, I've sorta blown that off as those 49ers were about as good as a top college D.
My only point in bringing that up was that I'm not sure how fair it is to say his game doesn't translate to the NFL.
identikit
Footballguy
Because he's not that good from the RB position.
He doesn't run that well inside (though he seems to be getting better at that of late; then again he might look better simply because that sort of play tends to be a counter-punch to the usual pass-heavy NO offense).
His NFL value is out in space, screens, reverses, short passes, punt returns.
In PPR is his only real value, FF-wise.
He doesn't run that well inside (though he seems to be getting better at that of late; then again he might look better simply because that sort of play tends to be a counter-punch to the usual pass-heavy NO offense).
His NFL value is out in space, screens, reverses, short passes, punt returns.
In PPR is his only real value, FF-wise.
(I am totally picking a name out of thin air, feel free to replace with someone other than Ingram)Why is Helu a likely better runner in the NFL?
identikit
Footballguy
Your tangents aren't even tangential.
CalBear
Footballguy
I think the fundamental answer is that he's too contact-averse. He has great speed and good (not great) moves, but his fear of contact not only keeps him from getting the extra yard, it also makes his decision-making too conservative. He's too likely to run towards the sideline rather than cut it upfield.
guderian
Footballguy
It's been well documented that he runs east-west too much, but the thing that amazes me is the lack of breakaway plays. He's been in the NFL for 5 years and his longest runs in three of those years were 18, 22 and 23 yards. His longest pass receptions in three of those years were 20, 25 and 29. I could deal with the east-west running if there was occasionally a payoff in a big run or reception and that just hasn't happened. The fact is that his game just didn't translate well to the NFL which I'd blame on a lack of vision/moves that prevent him from breaking more long plays because we knew he wasn't going to be a 4 yards and a cloud of dust type runner.
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chinawildman
Footballguy
For me, good vision in a RB means when he's carrying the ball, his body is moving to evade tacklers, but his head and eyes are looking downfield figuring out his next move. It's kinda like shooting pool, good pool players aren't just looking to make the shot, they know setting up the next shot is just as important. RBs like CJ and gore (especially in his earlier days) are excellent at this. If you watch Bush play, he is so focused on either out running or making the guy in front of him miss, that he forgets there's 10 other guys on the field trying to tackle him.
I agree on breakaway runs, those stats resemble Jamal Lewis.It's been a while since I saw his college highlights, but he had a sidestep that I didn't even think was humanly possible, in college. He had some moves-err at least one. Lendale? Who was the other runner. That guy was their tough runner until Bush had something to prove and he did OK then.
(In this content only) I don't believe CJ is half as good a runner as most think as he has awesome blockers that make life so easy for a burner and his speed (at other times) puts him in such an advantageous position that he doesn't need to do anything fancy.Explain more about Gore please? Maybe there's something to that
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Football Outsiders had a good article earlier this year on the formations that NO uses with vs. without Bush. He is a really important part of their offense. Of course you'd want more than the 4200 yards from scrimmage (decreasing year over year) in five seasons out of that #2 pick, but he is a unique player and helped them win a title.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Weak legs, which are also why he has very few big runs for all his speeds and east/west running.
Leg strength is the most underrated thing in the NFL. When you see an NFL running back break a big run, they don't do it by juking everyone out. They do it because when they make people miss they're doing it will small movements that allow them to keep their speed going forward, and don't get slowed up by arm tackles and whatnot. Watch a big run in the NFL, on any one of them there will be at least 3 or 4 guys that get good contact on their lower body but they just run right through it without slowing down. Bush can actually break tackles sometimes, but to do it he has to come to a complete stop. He can't just shed off arm tackles like they're not even there.
Leg strength is the most underrated thing in the NFL. When you see an NFL running back break a big run, they don't do it by juking everyone out. They do it because when they make people miss they're doing it will small movements that allow them to keep their speed going forward, and don't get slowed up by arm tackles and whatnot. Watch a big run in the NFL, on any one of them there will be at least 3 or 4 guys that get good contact on their lower body but they just run right through it without slowing down. Bush can actually break tackles sometimes, but to do it he has to come to a complete stop. He can't just shed off arm tackles like they're not even there.
Good Posting!!!Been saying this for years...without heart you cannot play in the NFL.
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Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
When Bush was coming back from injury, I remember seeing a spotlight about his role in the Saints' offense and how the defense had to account so much for his presence that it really opened up the rest of the field. Certainly backs up the Outsiders' piece.
coolnerd
Footballguy
If you go back to the draft of 2006 there were plenty of people both on this board and NFL experts who did not think of Bush was an everydown back. That has come true. that said, when healthy, Bush has shown to be an asset that has to be accounted for, but not consistently been a difference maker. I think he were more focus on being an everydown back, then the playmaker part of his game would come naturally. I think though, he has had enough injuries where it would be difficult for him to get to the elite level that some thought he would be. Still in the right offense (new orleans is that) he is still an effective pro, just not a guy worth the 2nd pick overall.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Why aren't/weren't Tim Couch, David Carr, Alex Smith, JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, or Joey Harrington multi-time pro bowl QBs?
How come Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, Curtis Enis, or Cadillac Williams weren't perennial 1,000 yard rushers?
What about Charles Rogers, Braylon Edwards, or Peter Warrick at WR?
ALL of these guys were Top 5 overall picks. Who knows what happened. Maybe they got hurt, or their game didn't translate to the pro game. Or their teams were terrible. Or they were given too much responsibility too soon. Or they suffered from poor coaching. Maybe they could learn pro schemes or adjust to the complexity of 1,000 plays with a lot of variations. Maybe they were immature, couldn't handle making millions of dollars, or maybe they weren't that good to begin with. Bottom line, there have been plenty of players that didn't pan out or ended up as good as they looked in school.
In Bush's case, I suspect the Trojans as a team were way better than the teams they faced, and for the most part they faced inferior competition on a regular basis. In the NFL, there are enough good players that there are not gynormous holes to run through, defenders can tackle better, and they hit a lot harder. Bush with no space and not in the open field does not equal Bush at USC.
Put him on the Seahawks and it won't change that the NFL is not USC, even if he were to have the same coach. He's already shown that he is not a great interior runner and has struggled with repeated injuries. I don't see him becoming a 300 carry, 75 reception bell cow running back after struggling to get 150 carries in a season and play in 12 games a year. As it is, most of his numbers have been declining not improving. And don't forget he plays most of his game indoors on a fast track on one of the most prolific offenses in the league.
I don't see him going elsewhere and doing much different, as he already is in a situation that should be maximizing his production.
How come Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, Curtis Enis, or Cadillac Williams weren't perennial 1,000 yard rushers?
What about Charles Rogers, Braylon Edwards, or Peter Warrick at WR?
ALL of these guys were Top 5 overall picks. Who knows what happened. Maybe they got hurt, or their game didn't translate to the pro game. Or their teams were terrible. Or they were given too much responsibility too soon. Or they suffered from poor coaching. Maybe they could learn pro schemes or adjust to the complexity of 1,000 plays with a lot of variations. Maybe they were immature, couldn't handle making millions of dollars, or maybe they weren't that good to begin with. Bottom line, there have been plenty of players that didn't pan out or ended up as good as they looked in school.
In Bush's case, I suspect the Trojans as a team were way better than the teams they faced, and for the most part they faced inferior competition on a regular basis. In the NFL, there are enough good players that there are not gynormous holes to run through, defenders can tackle better, and they hit a lot harder. Bush with no space and not in the open field does not equal Bush at USC.
Put him on the Seahawks and it won't change that the NFL is not USC, even if he were to have the same coach. He's already shown that he is not a great interior runner and has struggled with repeated injuries. I don't see him becoming a 300 carry, 75 reception bell cow running back after struggling to get 150 carries in a season and play in 12 games a year. As it is, most of his numbers have been declining not improving. And don't forget he plays most of his game indoors on a fast track on one of the most prolific offenses in the league.
I don't see him going elsewhere and doing much different, as he already is in a situation that should be maximizing his production.
Reggie Bush is not a top 5 RB for a few reasons:
1) Injuries. You cannot improve your game and polish your skills when you are just trying to get back to where you were. This is a very fundamental reason.
2) Offensive Philosophy. He is moved around to the point where I can understand why he has no continuity. It is one thing to have your position and work on your craft and build on something. When you are used in a whole bunch of different sets, you really don't have an identity.
3) Defensive gameplanning. He is arguably the most dangerous offensive weapon the Saints have next to Devery Henderson. He is going to get a lot of attention.
As for busts in general, football is a team game.
You could draft Jesus--it doesn't mean he is going to play WR or the Oline or coach. A QB can only do so much to help his WR. A QB can only do so much to compensate for his OLine. A QB cannot do anything about his coach. There is a concrete reason why Aaron Rodgers can win a Super Bowl and Alex Smith is fighting off mediocrity. Alex Smith went to the worst team in the league. Aaron Rodgers went to the 8th best team. On the one hand, Smith had to make his teammates better. On the other, Rodgers just had to do his job and his team would raise his play level. Ben Roethlisberger was a great rookie QB--with a great team around him.
It takes a lot to be the worst team in the league. It takes a lot to turn a bad team into a good one.
Think about the worst teams in recent memory. What is good about the Panthers? What was good about the Rams or Lions last year? The year before and all that jazz. It is impossible for one player to turn a team around. It is possible for a player to put a team over the edge but never get them to that edge alone.
This post is long enough, but there could be a post long enough just on how the coach makes or breaks and how the FO makes or breaks. And all of this isn't even considering how a player copes with his environment off of the field
1) Injuries. You cannot improve your game and polish your skills when you are just trying to get back to where you were. This is a very fundamental reason.
2) Offensive Philosophy. He is moved around to the point where I can understand why he has no continuity. It is one thing to have your position and work on your craft and build on something. When you are used in a whole bunch of different sets, you really don't have an identity.
3) Defensive gameplanning. He is arguably the most dangerous offensive weapon the Saints have next to Devery Henderson. He is going to get a lot of attention.
As for busts in general, football is a team game.
You could draft Jesus--it doesn't mean he is going to play WR or the Oline or coach. A QB can only do so much to help his WR. A QB can only do so much to compensate for his OLine. A QB cannot do anything about his coach. There is a concrete reason why Aaron Rodgers can win a Super Bowl and Alex Smith is fighting off mediocrity. Alex Smith went to the worst team in the league. Aaron Rodgers went to the 8th best team. On the one hand, Smith had to make his teammates better. On the other, Rodgers just had to do his job and his team would raise his play level. Ben Roethlisberger was a great rookie QB--with a great team around him.
It takes a lot to be the worst team in the league. It takes a lot to turn a bad team into a good one.
Think about the worst teams in recent memory. What is good about the Panthers? What was good about the Rams or Lions last year? The year before and all that jazz. It is impossible for one player to turn a team around. It is possible for a player to put a team over the edge but never get them to that edge alone.
This post is long enough, but there could be a post long enough just on how the coach makes or breaks and how the FO makes or breaks. And all of this isn't even considering how a player copes with his environment off of the field
ThePittbully
Footballguy
I was at that game, probably his best game since he's been in the league. On topic, as other people have said, he has weak legs and has trouble staying up after first contact or pushing piles. This also limits his success running inside. I think he has improved in these last two years, but his injuries have been his second major flaw. He has trouble staying healthy, especially his legs. He's had multiple surgeries and I seriously doubt his career in the NFL will be a long one because of that. All that being said, he brings a lot to the offense and demands a lot of attention from the defense
loose circuits
Footballguy
it's almost like you haven't seen CJ play before. He's so good at setting up his blocks it is almost uncanny. Jamaal Charles is very similar, not so sure about Gore as I haven't seen enough tape. Bush doesn't have the speed or ability to set up his blockers like those 2
yep never have. Who is this CJ guy? is he new? Quit flaming me in every thread, find a hobby
Yes, his stats would be a lot worse.
thatguy
Footballguy
Barry was the best I've ever seen at what you're talking about. It was uncanny how he seemed to just know where every potential tackler was at all times.
The Kansas Comet
Footballguy
Every starter on the USC offense in Bush's final season there was drafted/played in the NFL. That team was so loaded compared to their opponents.
loose circuits
Footballguy
not trying to flame you buddy, just trying to help you see the light.Guess ProFootball Focus disagrees with you about Tenn line being the reason behind CJ's success. Not sure I'd consider than 'awesome blockers' like you did, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/03/13/fantasy-warning-signs-for-cj2k/
ninerfanatic492000
Footballguy
twice when reading this thread i had to check my pc's clock to see if my internal battery had reset and it was pulling info or posts from 2006/7. did/does the original poster have amnesia and the last game he watched/remember was the epic rose bowl game?
not sure how a souped up injury prone eric metcalf could enter someone's mind as a top 5RB(and i luv'd watching eric metcalf)
not sure how a souped up injury prone eric metcalf could enter someone's mind as a top 5RB(and i luv'd watching eric metcalf)
Saints-Man
Footballguy
I too think this is his greatest weakness as an everydown back. However, looking back at that 2006 draft, who else would they have taken at #2? I think Bush contributes a lot to the Saints scheme wise and I hope he is able to stay a Saint for a while. With Payton's offense, Bush is definitely an asset.
I don't buy those stats and don't have time to research. I'd agree to "down year for the line in 2010" but that's about it.Recently CJ ran behind a 1st team all-pro tackle and a 2nd team all pro tackle, with a HOF (IMO) center. Mawae has retired but his replacement has done OK.'loose circuits said:
Go back a year or two (or both) and they were one of the top rushing teams AND allowed a small number of sacks- for me, a very clear sign of an excellent line.
And of course, their coach is now the head coach.
While they are young, a team doesn't put their bookends on the all-pro or pro bowl squad with some regularity and then have a poor line. That in and of itself makes me wonder about the PFF stats. I might come back to this when I can do research, but I just don't have the time right now.
Here's a paste from the season before, nashville city paper:
Four Tennessee Titans were selected to the Associated Press All-Pro first team, announced Friday.
Defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth received 49 of a possible 50 votes, while cornerback Cortland Finnegan, left tackle Michael Roos and center Kevin Mawae also made the prestigious squad.
Right tackle David Stewart was a member of the second team.
identikit
Footballguy
mightyeskimo
Footballguy
Played great against boys. Plays poorly against men.
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