Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
To those in favor of 6 points per passing TD: are you also in favor of 1 point per 10 passing yards?
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Why should a passing TD be worth less than a rushing/receiving TD? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rexjak
- Start date
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
Buffaloes
Footballguy
so why do you have a problem with the disparity in passing TDs, but still have that disparity in yardage? if a TD is a TD isn't a yard a yard?
Short Corner
Footballguy
I don't have a problem with the disparity. I have a problem that the disparity grossly overvalues RBs.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I still don't get why if a TD should be the same across the board the same argument isn't made for yardage. I don't care either way, but the statement in the thread title can be applied to yardage too. I just don't understand why there's a problem w/ 1 unbalanced portion of the scoring system and not all unbalanced parts
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
The two arguments aren't mutually inclusive. If you want to have that debate you need tofind someone who is actually arguing that point. Good luck.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
That's the thing, I'm not arguing anything. I'm trying to understand why the 2 stats aren't mutually inclusive. I've asked the question a couple times and still haven't rcvd and answer on why they aren't mutually inclusive.
Short Corner
Footballguy
No one is arguing that we should start the same number of QBs as RBs and WRs either. Are you trying to say that equity in one rule should imply equity across the board?
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I'm asking why if you have a problem with the arbitrary nature of 1 portion of the scoring system you don't have a problem with the arbitrary nature of another portion of the scoring system? I didn't mention lineup requirements.
Short Corner
Footballguy
cobalt_27
Footballguy
The argument for going 4 to 6 isn't to address arbitrariness. It's to address the ridiculous over-drafting of RB who are perceived to hold higher value. I dont think it does enough, but the move to 1:10 for QB may take it too far.
Start 2 QB or start 1 QB and 1 RB does help considerably, more than adding 2 pts per PaTD.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
ffinmyblood
Footballguy
This thread is laughable, and just shows the true mindset of you younger generation fantasy players. If it's not "hip and new" it's not cool. There are so many things wrong with what people are advocating for I don't know where to start, but I will try. I want someone, anyone to answer the following questions for me. Now I have been watching football probably longer than most of you here have been alive, and have NEVER seen these things, so someone help me out...PLEASE.
1. Since when does the NFL award a RB or WR's team with 1 point for every 10 yards they get??
2. Since when does the NFL deduct points from a team when a player fumbles, or a QB throws an INT??
3. Since when does the NFL award a WR's team with points for every reception he makes??
4. Since when does the NFL award teams 4 or 5 points for FG's over 40 yards?? I thought every FG was worth three??
5. Since when has an NFL team EVER, EVER started two QB's in one game??
6. When is the last time an NFL team scored 80+ points in a game regularly(like in today's FF games)??
For those of you that say QB's get no points awarded to them for throwing a TD pass, his team does. You have a fantasy TEAM don't you?? You can't use that argument and than say a RB/WR SHOULD be awarded points for every 10 yards he accumulates. That argument doesn't wash. You have a problem with 6 Points for QB's getting 6 TD's, but have no problem with WR's/RB's getting 1 point for every 10 yards?? Okay. I agree that there should be more points awarded than just for TD's in a FANTASY game, but let's TRY to keep it a little more realistic, shall we?? For instance back before computers(and even still now), a RB/WR rushing/receiving for 100 yds plus, or a QB throwing for 300+ was considered a "big" game. Award some points for that. Keep the scores realistic. if an NFL team has a great shot of winning their game by scoring 35 points, why shouldn't your fantasy team?? This isn't the NBA folks where 100 point games are the norm. It's the NFL.
You know how you allieviate to some extent a QB getting 6 points for every passing TD but NOT making scores unrealistic?? Play in deeper leagues...14 or 16(preferably) team leagues. In 10-12 team leagues, everyone has stacked teams for the most part. But in bigger leagues, yes, the top two drafters might get Rodgers & Brees, but before they pick again, the RB's will be all picked. That's how you get balanced teams. Sure, he's strong at QB but weak at RB, you are strong at RB, but weaker at QB. See how that works. If you know how to draft, a 14 team or 16 team league shouldn't be a problem. Oh yeah, and then there's this thing called depth...if you have it, and it's good enough, you can overcome your stud QB going down for the season.
This game shouldn't be this complicated folks. It was started in a much simpler(more realistic) format than it is now. Why did it have to be messed with?? I can't get excited when I beat my opponent 124-117 when I know that would NEVER happen in an NFL game. I can however get excited if my team wins 35-25 because my team put up enough points to win the game, and my defensive shut them down just enough. THAT is a team effort.
Carry on...and I will await the answers to my above asked questions. In the meantime, I will go draft in a 10 team league with a loaded team, a thin bench and score on average of 76 points a game, and see if I can find news articles on when the NFL changed their draft format to an auction style.
1. Since when does the NFL award a RB or WR's team with 1 point for every 10 yards they get??
2. Since when does the NFL deduct points from a team when a player fumbles, or a QB throws an INT??
3. Since when does the NFL award a WR's team with points for every reception he makes??
4. Since when does the NFL award teams 4 or 5 points for FG's over 40 yards?? I thought every FG was worth three??
5. Since when has an NFL team EVER, EVER started two QB's in one game??
6. When is the last time an NFL team scored 80+ points in a game regularly(like in today's FF games)??
For those of you that say QB's get no points awarded to them for throwing a TD pass, his team does. You have a fantasy TEAM don't you?? You can't use that argument and than say a RB/WR SHOULD be awarded points for every 10 yards he accumulates. That argument doesn't wash. You have a problem with 6 Points for QB's getting 6 TD's, but have no problem with WR's/RB's getting 1 point for every 10 yards?? Okay. I agree that there should be more points awarded than just for TD's in a FANTASY game, but let's TRY to keep it a little more realistic, shall we?? For instance back before computers(and even still now), a RB/WR rushing/receiving for 100 yds plus, or a QB throwing for 300+ was considered a "big" game. Award some points for that. Keep the scores realistic. if an NFL team has a great shot of winning their game by scoring 35 points, why shouldn't your fantasy team?? This isn't the NBA folks where 100 point games are the norm. It's the NFL.
You know how you allieviate to some extent a QB getting 6 points for every passing TD but NOT making scores unrealistic?? Play in deeper leagues...14 or 16(preferably) team leagues. In 10-12 team leagues, everyone has stacked teams for the most part. But in bigger leagues, yes, the top two drafters might get Rodgers & Brees, but before they pick again, the RB's will be all picked. That's how you get balanced teams. Sure, he's strong at QB but weak at RB, you are strong at RB, but weaker at QB. See how that works. If you know how to draft, a 14 team or 16 team league shouldn't be a problem. Oh yeah, and then there's this thing called depth...if you have it, and it's good enough, you can overcome your stud QB going down for the season.
This game shouldn't be this complicated folks. It was started in a much simpler(more realistic) format than it is now. Why did it have to be messed with?? I can't get excited when I beat my opponent 124-117 when I know that would NEVER happen in an NFL game. I can however get excited if my team wins 35-25 because my team put up enough points to win the game, and my defensive shut them down just enough. THAT is a team effort.
Carry on...and I will await the answers to my above asked questions. In the meantime, I will go draft in a 10 team league with a loaded team, a thin bench and score on average of 76 points a game, and see if I can find news articles on when the NFL changed their draft format to an auction style.
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In other words, Grampa, what you do is OK, even if doesn't mirror real football. (When does an NFL team average 76 points a game?) But anything anybody else does is not realistic.
ffinmyblood
Footballguy
Ummm, me saying scoring 76 points a game was mocking those of you who play in leagues like that now days. It's NOT realistic. The things i stated above, and the low point totals are FAR more realistic than what the game has become today. I have just never understood why anyone feels they have to take a masterpiece(and this goes for anything, not just FF), and try to make it different, and better when the game was just fine the way it was. It's just really sad that I can't find a league anywhere online with a simple, basic scoring( not the "basic" scoring of these days) format, to play in. The few that do exist yet are relegated to the "local" league that someone started many years ago. I applaud them, but it doesn't help an old school FF guy who once enjoyed playing the game, was incredibly passionate about it, and excelled at it. I'd LOVE to get in a league like that again.
Maybe you ought to go back to the way football was before the forward pass was invented.
My intention in the original posting was to start a discussion about the radical skew towards RB's and the devaluation of QB's, which surprisingly does not seem to get a lot of attention in itself. In the footballguys rankings, the first QB doesn't appear until pick #19, and only 7% of the top 30 picks are QBs. I'm not suggesting that fantasy football is supposed to "mimic reality", but it seems bizarre to me that the most important position in football, the "field general" of the offense, is relegated to such a lowly position in the fantasy game, to the point where nearly every "expert" recites the mantra every year: "only guppies draft their QB's early."
Just seems that something is out of whack, doesn't it? Making all TD's 6 points is one way to help balance things out. Other methods have been suggested in the thread.
The flourishing diversity of scoring systems greatly enriches the strategic aspects of the game, providing opportunities for good players to gain an advantage over generic cheat sheet players. If you tweak your system to make QB's more valuable, it may take a few seasons for your fellow drafters to catch on to the impact of this in relative value. Take a top QB early, and enjoy seeing them scoff at your "guppy" move. Time will tell who the real guppies are.
Just seems that something is out of whack, doesn't it? Making all TD's 6 points is one way to help balance things out. Other methods have been suggested in the thread.
The flourishing diversity of scoring systems greatly enriches the strategic aspects of the game, providing opportunities for good players to gain an advantage over generic cheat sheet players. If you tweak your system to make QB's more valuable, it may take a few seasons for your fellow drafters to catch on to the impact of this in relative value. Take a top QB early, and enjoy seeing them scoff at your "guppy" move. Time will tell who the real guppies are.
babydemon90
Footballguy
This is pretty much why I am in favor of the 6 pts for QB's - to make QB position more valuable, so it's not an automatic RB/RB draft. In the league I setup, I went with 20 yards per point as well, and also .5 pts per completion / -.25 pts per incompletion (although wondering if I should make it straight .5 / -.5 to reward more the efficient passers).
cobalt_27
Footballguy
The OP is spot on.
One of these days, hopefully soon as a fresh crop of thinkers come in and evolve the hobby, we'll look back on the RB-RB-RB draft strategy--waiting until rounds 7-10 to select the most important position on the field--and say WTF? That was pretty dumb.
I still think the 4 to 6 jump still doesn't calibrate QB values quite to where they should be. The # of lineup slots really is what magnifies RB scarcity issue and drives value. But, if you start the same number of QBs and RBs, it really fixes things.
Otherwise, you're just playing in a fantasy running back league. It's not fantasy football.
One of these days, hopefully soon as a fresh crop of thinkers come in and evolve the hobby, we'll look back on the RB-RB-RB draft strategy--waiting until rounds 7-10 to select the most important position on the field--and say WTF? That was pretty dumb.
I still think the 4 to 6 jump still doesn't calibrate QB values quite to where they should be. The # of lineup slots really is what magnifies RB scarcity issue and drives value. But, if you start the same number of QBs and RBs, it really fixes things.
Otherwise, you're just playing in a fantasy running back league. It's not fantasy football.
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To an extent, there is a counter argument to that. First of all, QB's are injured much less than other players, so their performance is more predictable; second, nobody comes in to vulture the qb's touchdowns. What that means is that the person who grabs Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees or Peyton will pretty much be the favorites for the title. If you're picking 12th, and you have to make do with Andy Dalton or Josh Freeman, you might as well pack it in. By increasing the importance of the RB position, and by adding PPR, you are making the playing field more even for those who pick later in the draft.
Wouldn't want to overdo it. Tweak the scoring enough so that QB's become more valuable but not so much that the first ten picks are all QBs! In our QB-friendly league, the top 2-3 QB's go quickly, but only around 8 of the first 32 picks (25%) are QBs, which seems about right to me. Interestingly, looking over the 4 years of history in our QB-friendly league, 75% of the teams who made the semi-finals had top-6 QBs. However, we've never had a first round with more than 4 QB's taken, so there has never been a year where any of the 16 teams in the league did not have the opportunity to take a top-6 QB.
chickensoup
Footballguy
If you think the 6pts vs 4 pts is what "grossly overvalues" RB in comparison to QB then you fail to understand why people tend to draft RB earlier than other positions.Short Corner said:
RB are taken highly because few consistantly put up numbers, many get injured over the course of the year, and too many teams committee their backfield. Plus you need 2 of them in most leagues. For QB recently, outside of the true elites, you just kinda have a guy within 1 point per week of the next guy. RB are valuable because 20-32 get started per week minimum in most formats depending on league size (10 to 16) with the ability to use more in some (flex). Most if the time, you only start 1 RB.
6 point TD pass leagues don't really change that disparity. It just means those that draft one of like 3 maybe 4 QBs have a large positional advantage. It's different than RB because each team can only start 1 and RB has a higher turnover as the top guys.
You can win in a 6 point passing TD league with a Romo or Roethlesberger, but you start at higher disadvantage than normal. QB/RB/RB is really strong from the middle of the first round in that format as long as you choose safer picks because you start with a large advantage at a position that others will be comparatively weak in and you will most weeks have a higher floor than others
The skew towards RBs and away from Qbs has very little to do with scoring system and a lot more to do with the available number of players that perform at a certain level.rexjak said:
AT QB, there were 11 QBs with 4000+ yards last year (Eli had 3948) and 12 with 26 or more TDs. Not a huge performance gap. That is essentially every fantasy starter in a 12 team league with 4000 yards and 25 TDs. Using a 1/25 pasing yardage scale, that is 160 points from yardage, and at 4 per passing TD, 100 points from TDs.
For an RB to score at that clip, you need 1600 total yards (assuming 1/10 scoring) and 16 TDs). Last year, 8 runningbacks hit that yardage number and only one hit the TD number. So now we have less RBs performing at the level needed to keep up with QB scoring trying to fill MORE lineup positions.
It is the scarcity of RBs that drive their value up and why they are drafted earlier. It is the potential of finding an RB that may perform at that level that drives their value up. It is the need, in most leagues, to not only find one RB that has the potential to put up strong numbers but to also find a second RB that has the chance to make a meaningful, consistent contribution. It is the safety of knowing one can find a QB to perform at a reasonable level that pushes their value down. 6 pt and 4 pt passing TDs will do nothing to reduce the number of QBs that put up solid numbers. If the top 4 QBs continue to average around 36 TDs/year, and the worst starter continues to throw around 26 TDs a year, the change is only worth about 20 points over the course of the season, slightly more than 1 PPG.
In summary, if you want to truly make QBs more valuable in FANTASY FOOTBALL, you need to look at the lineup requirements more than you look at the scoring system. If the NFL ever got to the point where you could reasonably expect 24+ RBs to put up around 1400+ yards and get 10+ TDs, the RB position in FANTASY FOOTBALL would lose much of it's value.