Why tackle stats are garbage (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

This is one of the reasons that I don't play IDP, (although time commitment is also a big one). Got this from today's Peter King article:

6. I think I learn something every time I read Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News. The other day, he was writing about how dumb the "tackles'' stat is -- something all of us who cover the league think is true but only Goose had the brains to write about -- and made this point: "The Indy defense was on the field for 980 snaps last season. But there were no tackles [made] on 199 of those plays because they were either incomplete passes, interceptions or offensive touchdowns. That left 781 defensive snaps that involved a tackle -- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles. That's an average of 1.81 tackles per play. The Indianapolis staff awarded 891 "solo" tackles in those 781 plays. Figure that one out.'' Superb point.

LINKThe beauty of fantasy football is that the stats are all earned in real life. There's no questioning whether a guy scored a TD or not, or how may yards he had. It's all there in black and white. But tackles are a stat created and kept by the teams, and it's very subjective. Some teams are very liberal when giving out tackles, others are not nearly as liberal. So you end up with fantasy scoring based on a subjective stat competing against objective stats. Can't say that I care a whole lot for that.

Seems like if NFL.com is going to keep track of the tackles stat on their website, they could at least have a centralized counter of that stat instead of relying on the teams. At least that way you have essentially the same standards being used for every team.

 

[The Jacket]

http://www.nfl.com/players/d.j.williams/ca...ts?id=WIL237478

 

[-baller]

there's a whole thread on this over in idp.

not sure what the issue is unless a guy moves from one team to another.

it's like getting pissed because qb's in a dome have an advantage, so you cut the qb position.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

 

[aburt19]

there's a whole thread on this over in idp.not sure what the issue is unless a guy moves from one team to another.it's like getting pissed because qb's in a dome have an advantage, so you cut the qb position.

It's also like the QB getting charged for the interception when the ball went off the receivers hands on an easily catchable throw or when the receiver cuts thewrong way on a pass pattern.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Its a NON ISSUE.IDPs do not use team stats.Its been that way for 25+ years.

Exactly, IDP's use the stats from Stats Inc. Actually, most non-IDP leagues do also. That's where most services get their stats from.

 

[Oh Noes]

People still play in leagues that aren't IDP?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

People still play in leagues that aren't IDP?

You can take it a step further... as people still play in TD only leagues.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

Exactly, IDP's use the stats from Stats Inc. Actually, most non-IDP leagues do also. That's where most services get their stats from.

If your league is on CBS, for example, you use CBS statistics.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

Same as the OP. So, if you're in an IDP league on CBS, you're getting the OP's problem in your league.

I know CBS Sportsline partners with Stats, Inc, but do they get tackles directly from them? Does Stats use the tackle information from the coaches?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

No, the teams track their own totals."- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles.

We dont use those.

Your very link to CBS shows 1,141 tackles (incl STs) and the original article states 1,416.

Teams scoring </> Scorekeepers scoring.

Believe me, I harken back to the day of adding them up in the USA Today.

Team totals have always been out of whack.

 

[maxwelledison]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

Exactly, IDP's use the stats from Stats Inc. Actually, most non-IDP leagues do also. That's where most services get their stats from.

If your league is on CBS, for example, you use CBS statistics.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

Same as the OP. So, if you're in an IDP league on CBS, you're getting the OP's problem in your league.

I know CBS Sportsline partners with Stats, Inc, but do they get tackles directly from them? Does Stats use the tackle information from the coaches?

As far as I know there are two sets of tackle stats; one is from the NFL/Stats and the other is from the team. Team stats are inflated (Urlacher will evidently never have fewer than 160 tackles per season according to the Bears but CBS has him at 92 and 31 assisted in 2007) but no one pays attention to those. CBS uses NFL/Stats.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

That's what I was going to say - your own link shows they aren't using the numbers from the article and those numbers do include ST tackles.

The NFL Gamebooks use numbers from Stats Inc.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

No, the teams track their own totals."- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles.

We dont use those.

Your very link to CBS shows 1,141 tackles (incl STs) and the original article states 1,416.

Teams scoring </> Scorekeepers scoring.

Believe me, I harken back to the day of adding them up in the USA Today.

Team totals have always been out of whack.

Again, you're just reading past the point. Stop and think about this for a second.I'm mainly looking at the 886 solo tackles awarded in the link I showed you. The OP showed correctly how there were only 781 plays where you could make a tackle.

The 1,141 tackles are a sum of the 886 solo tackles, which leaves 255 tackles that were split. However, Sportsline chooses to give only .5 tackles per half tackle, while the OP numbers lump them all in together. If you double the 'half' tackles (to make each half tackle whole), then add them onto the solo tackles, you get 1,396 tackles, which is very close to what the OP states (probably variance due to the fact that 3 or more people were in on a few tackles as well).

 

[Jene Bramel]

It's been said many times in the thread, but the NFL employs a team of statisticians in each team's stadium. They are continuing to work to improve the consistency and uniformity of the unofficial defensive statistics. Here's an article I wrote two weeks ago detailing the newer NFL guidelines and how and why they were generated.

The teams have always charted their own games. Each team grades their players differently and charts the stat differently. The inflated team stats have been an issue for decades. Those stats are not associated with any stat service or fantasy league hosting site.

It may be an issue for another thread, but the argument that unofficial tackle stats make IDP leagues a crapshoot or unworthy is total bunk. Shy away from IDP because you aren't interested in learning enough about how defenses work to do well, but don't blame it on a mis-informed opinion.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

No, the teams track their own totals."- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles.

We dont use those.

Your very link to CBS shows 1,141 tackles (incl STs) and the original article states 1,416.

Teams scoring </> Scorekeepers scoring.

Believe me, I harken back to the day of adding them up in the USA Today.

Team totals have always been out of whack.

Again, you're just reading past the point. Stop and think about this for a second.I'm mainly looking at the 886 solo tackles awarded in the link I showed you. The OP showed correctly how there were only 781 plays where you could make a tackle.

The 1,141 tackles are a sum of the 886 solo tackles, which leaves 255 tackles that were split. However, Sportsline chooses to give only .5 tackles per half tackle, while the OP numbers lump them all in together. If you double the 'half' tackles (to make each half tackle whole), then add them onto the solo tackles, you get 1,396 tackles, which is very close to what the OP states (probably variance due to the fact that 3 or more people were in on a few tackles as well).

781 offensive snaps to have tackles.

And you have 886 solo tackles... then you subtract the special teams tackles...

If they make 6 ST tackles a game... its damn near perfect.

Im not saying its perfect. (Which is why it isnt official). But it is DAMN close to being spot on.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Including all rush attempts, pass incompletions and sacks, there were 807 plays from scrimmage that could've resulted in a solo tackle last year for Indianapolis. The remainder of the 79 solos may have come from special teams plays or funky interception/fumble recovery plays where an offensive player is awarded a tackle. You'll notice a number of solos awarded to offensive players who don't contribute on ST -- Manning, Addai, Diem, etc. Any play may have an assisted tackle awarded and it's also possible to have two assists on a play without a solo tackle.

I don't see a clear issue between the CBS stats and what happened on the field. Is it possible that there are a couple of extra tackles in there? Maybe. But it's not a huge number, to be certain.

 

[Fullback Fro]

It's been said many times in the thread, but the NFL employs a team of statisticians in each team's stadium. They are continuing to work to improve the consistency and uniformity of the unofficial defensive statistics. Here's an article I wrote two weeks ago detailing the newer NFL guidelines and how and why they were generated.

The teams have always charted their own games. Each team grades their players differently and charts the stat differently. The inflated team stats have been an issue for decades. Those stats are not associated with any stat service or fantasy league hosting site.

It may be an issue for another thread, but the argument that unofficial tackle stats make IDP leagues a crapshoot or unworthy is total bunk. Shy away from IDP because you aren't interested in learning enough about how defenses work to do well, but don't blame it on a mis-informed opinion.

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

No, the teams track their own totals."- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles.

We dont use those.

Your very link to CBS shows 1,141 tackles (incl STs) and the original article states 1,416.

Teams scoring </> Scorekeepers scoring.

Believe me, I harken back to the day of adding them up in the USA Today.

Team totals have always been out of whack.

Again, you're just reading past the point. Stop and think about this for a second.I'm mainly looking at the 886 solo tackles awarded in the link I showed you. The OP showed correctly how there were only 781 plays where you could make a tackle.

The 1,141 tackles are a sum of the 886 solo tackles, which leaves 255 tackles that were split. However, Sportsline chooses to give only .5 tackles per half tackle, while the OP numbers lump them all in together. If you double the 'half' tackles (to make each half tackle whole), then add them onto the solo tackles, you get 1,396 tackles, which is very close to what the OP states (probably variance due to the fact that 3 or more people were in on a few tackles as well).

781 offensive snaps to have tackles.

And you have 886 solo tackles... then you subtract the special teams tackles...

If they make 6 ST tackles a game... its damn near perfect.

Im not saying its perfect. (Which is why it isnt official). But it is DAMN close to being spot on.

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.Please stop acting like a tool and try to think about this, instead of using big capital letters and mocking smileys.

Thanks.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.

Keys, I might be missing the point, but there can be an assisted tackle and solo tackle awarded on the same play. That happens fairly often. However, after the new guidelines, the total assisted tackles awarded in the league last year dropped from nearly 8000 to just over 7000. The league is actively trying to decrease the number of assisted tackles awarded for piling on and similar assisted "tackles".

 

[Keys Myaths]

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.

Keys, I might be missing the point, but there can be an assisted tackle and solo tackle awarded on the same play. That happens fairly often.

Wait, wait.That doesn't bother you?

ETA: What am I missing here?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.

Keys, I might be missing the point, but there can be an assisted tackle and solo tackle awarded on the same play. That happens fairly often.

Wait, wait.That doesn't bother you?

ETA: What am I missing here?

Admittedly, it's a very fine line. And one the NFL is actively trying to handle better.In the past, assisted tackles were awarded anytime a second player was around the ball when a tackle was made. Currently, the recommendation is to award a solo tackle to a defender who is controlling a ballcarrier and would finish a tackle. However, if a second defender comes in and materially shortens the duration of the play (time or yardage) according to the judgment of the lead statistician, an assisted tackle is awarded with the solo tackle.

It's a subtle way to distinguish between the defender who made the biggest impact on the play and the defender who made a difference in the end of the play. Did the first player make a "solo" tackle? In the purest sense of the word, no. But it's a different situation than when two defenders hit a ballcarrier at the same time, when two assisted tackles and no solos are awarded.

I don't like the semantics of it, but I'm not too bothered enough about the three distinctions to add in another category for those tackles where a player will get the ballcarrier down in a timely fashion but another defender shortens the play before he can. The first player was more important to the play, but both had an impact.

I think the key issue is to continue to strive to get the stat guys to make similar judgments in those close situations, which was definitely an issue in prior seasons. The Philly stat crew would hand out passes defensed for putting on a jersey and walking through the tunnel -- double any other crew. That's no longer happening. The Miami stat crew gave out tons of assists, as did other crews. The Miami crew number was league average last season. Others are a little further behind.

 

[zed2283]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

 

[Jene Bramel]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

There's very little question that you can examine a team's defensive scheme and the role of players (whether they're in the nickel, whether they play strong-weak or right-left, whether they play in-the-box or in deep coverage, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) and understand why one player is more likely to produce in the box score than another.We do it every year.As I noted in an earlier post, we do take into account some anomalies in the unofficial stats at times. In reality, however, the difference in assisted tackles or passes defensed play very little role in week-to-week starting lineup decisions or draft day decisions. It may make a difference in a given tier, but we're not talking stud vs non-stud. Have you ever drafted a kicker because he plays in a dome? It's not much different than that.And, again, if you'll take a look at my article and the companion database analysis Aaron Rudnicki will be publishing shortly, those issues have all but dried up anyway.IMO, it really is a commitment issue. If you have a deep understanding of defensive football -- schemes, roles, how a skill set fits a given role, etc -- there's not much more to learn than which player fits where. If you don't, it takes a commitment to learn those things to do well in an IDP league. Every argument I've seen against an IDP league from a non-IDP owner can be turned around on an offensive position or addressed with a better system setup.

 

[zed2283]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

There's very little question that you can examine a team's defensive scheme and the role of players (whether they're in the nickel, whether they play strong-weak or right-left, whether they play in-the-box or in deep coverage, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) and understand why one player is more likely to produce in the box score than another.We do it every year.As I noted in an earlier post, we do take into account some anomalies in the unofficial stats at times. In reality, however, the difference in assisted tackles or passes defensed play very little role in week-to-week starting lineup decisions or draft day decisions. It may make a difference in a given tier, but we're not talking stud vs non-stud. Have you ever drafted a kicker because he plays in a dome? It's not much different than that.And, again, if you'll take a look at my article and the companion database analysis Aaron Rudnicki will be publishing shortly, those issues have all but dried up anyway.

Ok, so the same as picking a kicker who plays in a dome or a QB who runs a run-and-shoot. Big deal... no deep understanding there.

 

[Jene Bramel]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

There's very little question that you can examine a team's defensive scheme and the role of players (whether they're in the nickel, whether they play strong-weak or right-left, whether they play in-the-box or in deep coverage, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) and understand why one player is more likely to produce in the box score than another.We do it every year.As I noted in an earlier post, we do take into account some anomalies in the unofficial stats at times. In reality, however, the difference in assisted tackles or passes defensed play very little role in week-to-week starting lineup decisions or draft day decisions. It may make a difference in a given tier, but we're not talking stud vs non-stud. Have you ever drafted a kicker because he plays in a dome? It's not much different than that.And, again, if you'll take a look at my article and the companion database analysis Aaron Rudnicki will be publishing shortly, those issues have all but dried up anyway.

Ok, so the same as picking a kicker who plays in a dome or a QB who runs a run-and-shoot. Big deal... no deep understanding there.

You cherry picked there. You suggested that using the differences in stat crew tackle stats was a key part of IDP strategy. I argued that observing and acting upon the anomalies in unofficial stat scoring in an IDP league is as helpful in IDP leagues as looking at whether a kicker plays in a dome on the offensive side. It's a small part of deciding a player within tiers and it has little to do with understanding talent and opportunity. Owners need to understand the differences in receivers in the West Coast offense or which back looks better in a zone blocking scheme to do well in fantasy leagues.If you don't make the commitment to do the same in IDP leagues, you'll be drafting Cato June (who was terrible in the box scores last year) and ignoring Patrick Willis (who was a stud) or taking Ed Reed over Roman Harper.

 

[aburt19]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

I don't know about a deeper committment, but the one thing that it does is introduce another layer of strategy in the draft. Deciding when to go with pickinga defensive player versus go ahead with another offensive player. Other formats use a flex position player or have gone to 3 WR in an attempt to also putanother layer of strategy.I play both types and prefer the IDP leagues because of the additional positions.If it's not your cup of tea, no problem.

 

[Workhorse]

The authors orignal premis makes him look uninformed and ignorant. Regardless if the inflated tackle numbers were in fact being used or not, IDP is a far more intricate system for fantasy football. And it takes a deeper commitment and desire to understand all aspects of the NFL game and how its played on both sudes of the ball. I have found the transition to be the most rewarding decision I've ever made with reagrards to our hobby.

It might take a deeper understanding of how they award tackles, or which team awards more inflated numbers, but that's about it. Trying to make it sound like you know more about football, or that you have some "deep committment", because you play in an IDP league is laughable.So is using unofficial stats in your scoring and trying to tout it as the next generation of ff. IDP

There's very little question that you can examine a team's defensive scheme and the role of players (whether they're in the nickel, whether they play strong-weak or right-left, whether they play in-the-box or in deep coverage, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) and understand why one player is more likely to produce in the box score than another.We do it every year.As I noted in an earlier post, we do take into account some anomalies in the unofficial stats at times. In reality, however, the difference in assisted tackles or passes defensed play very little role in week-to-week starting lineup decisions or draft day decisions. It may make a difference in a given tier, but we're not talking stud vs non-stud. Have you ever drafted a kicker because he plays in a dome? It's not much different than that.And, again, if you'll take a look at my article and the companion database analysis Aaron Rudnicki will be publishing shortly, those issues have all but dried up anyway.IMO, it really is a commitment issue. If you have a deep understanding of defensive football -- schemes, roles, how a skill set fits a given role, etc -- there's not much more to learn than which player fits where. If you don't, it takes a commitment to learn those things to do well in an IDP league. Every argument I've seen against an IDP league from a non-IDP owner can be turned around on an offensive position or addressed with a better system setup.

I guess the main problem I have is one of statistical relability and how to mesh tackle stats, which by your own words can be awarded based on "judgment of the lead statistician", with mentions to "fine lines" between solo/assisted tackles and the "subtle" nature of the statistic in general.

However, after the new guidelines, the total assisted tackles awarded in the league last year dropped from nearly 8000 to just over 7000. The league is actively trying to decrease the number of assisted tackles awarded for piling on and similar assisted "tackles".

This, to me, means that the tackle statistic is fluid and subject to change on a year to year basis. If that's the case, doesn't it make it far more difficult to project IDP value vs. Offensive Player value when the very nature of the tackle stat itself changes from year to year?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

title should include an asterisk: why *team-kept tackle stats are garbage

NFL tackle stats are actually pretty reliable.

 

[Jene Bramel]

I guess the main problem I have is one of statistical relability and how to mesh tackle stats, which by your own words can be awarded based on "judgment of the lead statistician", with mentions to "fine lines" between solo/assisted tackles and the "subtle" nature of the statistic in general. This, to me, means that the tackle statistic is fluid and subject to change on a year to year basis. If that's the case, doesn't it make it far more difficult to project IDP value vs. Offensive Player value when the very nature of the tackle stat itself changes from year to year?

We're in total agreement on the statistical reliability issue. As is the NFL, which is why they made a concerted effort to minimize those anomalies. As I've shown, it's working. It will absolutely never be perfect. Defensive football is the ultimate team sport and today's defenders are more athletic and quick to the ball than ever. At full speed, deciding whether two players deserve a solo and an assist or two assists or a solo only will always be a judgment call. With a few exceptions (home crews know their own players better and will probably make more correct split second decisions for their own players than the visitor teams), those judgments should even out with better guidelines and understanding of what the ideal standard should be.I think accurately projecting the year end stat line of any player, offensive or defensive, is extremely difficult. The "nature of the tackle" is less fluid now than it's ever been. The former guideline was, in the words of the NFL themselves, little more than "you'll know a tackle when you see it". That's absolutely not the case any more, as the NFL has finally taken note of the differences in unofficial defensive statistics -- pushed by folks like us (Rudnicki in particular) and Football Outsiders (who brought the differences into the mainstream football world) in 2006.We track total solos and assists and passes defensed on a per team and league overall basis when generating defensive projections as the offensive guys track targets, run-pass ratio, etc. It is more difficult on the offensive side, because there's 11 men with the potential to generate a tackle and a much fewer number of offensive guys who are likely to be the target on a pass play or get a rush attempt. If you know what you're looking for, however, you can make very educated guesses on whether a WLB is more likely to get X number of tackles in a season in one scheme vs another (or any other position).

 

[Jene Bramel]

For those who have an open mind about how someone with in-depth IDP knowledge can consider scheme, role and responsibility to more accurately project IDP value or just want a deeper look at today's NFL defenses, take a look at this (very long) look at how defensive schemes differ and how certain players are more likely to have value within the scheme.

 

[aburt19]

For those who have an open mind about how someone with in-depth IDP knowledge can consider scheme, role and responsibility to more accurately project IDP value or just want a deeper look at today's NFL defenses, take a look at this (very long) look at how defensive schemes differ and how certain players are more likely to have value within the scheme.

One example of this was Jonathan Vilma. The first year he was with the Jets he looked like a lead pipe cinch to be top 10 at the position for years to come.Then the Jets change their defense and his value went down dramatically. Now he's with New Orleans and the scheme that they run appears to be much

more condusive to him making a return toward the top again.

 

[Bri]

Got this from today's Peter King article:

6. I think I learn something every time I read Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News. The other day, he was writing about how dumb the "tackles'' stat is -- something all of us who cover the league think is true but only Goose had the brains to write about -- and made this point: "The Indy defense was on the field for 980 snaps last season. But there were no tackles [made] on 199 of those plays because they were either incomplete passes, interceptions or offensive touchdowns. That left 781 defensive snaps that involved a tackle -- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles. That's an average of 1.81 tackles per play. The Indianapolis staff awarded 891 "solo" tackles in those 781 plays. Figure that one out.'' Superb point.

LINK

that's awesomeDungy's not new to this, Hardy used to have 80 or so more tackles by Tampa's scoring vs the league one-as if he didn't have enough already.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Oh, and Peter King was much better when he spent more time thinking about what he thought and less time adding in all the extraneous crap he's put into his weekly article over the past five years. You used to be able to throw a rock at his copy and find something useful. Now the rock sails right through like it's a poster of Raquel Welch's fussy britches.

I guess I'm still entirely missing the point of getting grumpy over a set of team statistics that are not used externally in any meaningful fashion.

 

[sholditch]

Its a NON ISSUE.

IDPs do not use team stats.

Its been that way for 25+ years.

You're missing the point.http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/stats/IND/2007/regular

All those individuals' tackles (which is what you use in IDP) add up to the highly inflated team total referenced in the OP.

No, the teams track their own totals."- and the Colts' coaching staff awarded a league-high 1,416 tackles.

We dont use those.

Your very link to CBS shows 1,141 tackles (incl STs) and the original article states 1,416.

Teams scoring </> Scorekeepers scoring.

Believe me, I harken back to the day of adding them up in the USA Today.

Team totals have always been out of whack.

Again, you're just reading past the point. Stop and think about this for a second.I'm mainly looking at the 886 solo tackles awarded in the link I showed you. The OP showed correctly how there were only 781 plays where you could make a tackle.

The 1,141 tackles are a sum of the 886 solo tackles, which leaves 255 tackles that were split. However, Sportsline chooses to give only .5 tackles per half tackle, while the OP numbers lump them all in together. If you double the 'half' tackles (to make each half tackle whole), then add them onto the solo tackles, you get 1,396 tackles, which is very close to what the OP states (probably variance due to the fact that 3 or more people were in on a few tackles as well).

781 offensive snaps to have tackles.

And you have 886 solo tackles... then you subtract the special teams tackles...

If they make 6 ST tackles a game... its damn near perfect.

Im not saying its perfect. (Which is why it isnt official). But it is DAMN close to being spot on.

I love it when you swear. It reminds me of Mr. Drummond from Different Strokes

 

[Chaos Commish]

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.

Keys, I might be missing the point, but there can be an assisted tackle and solo tackle awarded on the same play. That happens fairly often.

Wait, wait.That doesn't bother you?

ETA: What am I missing here?

You're just missing information.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Again, that doesn't include the extra non-solo tackles, which there were 255 of last year.

Keys, I might be missing the point, but there can be an assisted tackle and solo tackle awarded on the same play. That happens fairly often.

Wait, wait.That doesn't bother you?

ETA: What am I missing here?

You mean you dont even understand how its actually scored... and yet you argue about it? Yes solo and assists happen on the same play.

stop acting like a tool

The tool award goes to you. Keys Myaths.