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Zac Stacy vs Tre Mason (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ShaHBucks
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
This was the first time I can recall someone from the Rams stating Mason would be in direct competition with Stacy for the starting RB job, which is why I passed along the article, and noted it in the first sentence. But thanks for unpacking that first sentence with the bolded whoever wins, wins quote, in case anybody was confused with the dense phrasing, there will be competition for the starting RB job.
Fisher called Mason a change of pace back during the draft, which didn't scream that he would get to compete with Stacy to be the starter. Mason himself previously claimed he was told by a STL coach that he would compete for the starting job, but this wasn't confirmed at that time. Recently Soulfly asked if there was any new information about this and I noted Fisher had stated Mason brings competition to the position, but he didn't say specifically it would be with Stacy for the starting role (he didn't say he wouldn't either, so it was ambiguous).
Pass protection is also mentioned in the article (in a part you edited out) and could "matter", if it plays a role in WHICH RB ultimately wins because they win. In most leagues we don't have the luxury of drafting team RB placemarkers for the one that wins because they win, so we have to concern ourselves with REASONS for thinking which way it will shake out and why.
Peppering the thread with stale, tedious, vapid, boorish variations of, "You must be a Stacy owner", don't constitute reasons.
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ctrlaltdefeat
Footballguy
Time share alert
msommer
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Of course not, just like with other positions. Mike Mamula and Vernon Gholston were examples of prospects that tested well but busted in the pros.
Alfred Morris isn't especially athletic, based on his tested measurables at the combine, but he has been a productive RB.
Some people think the entire concept of a combine is silly, and I can see some aspects of why they might think so (embodied in busts like Mamula and Gholston). But I think what that is overlooking is that a player like Ka'Deem Carey didn't get drafted from the FBS level to the FBS level, he got drafted to the NFL. Many scouts exhort others to not overweight the "Pajama Olympics" at the expense of the film, and the body of work it reveals. But it is film and a body of work against college players. In the NFL, they will be competing for the most part against players that are bigger, stronger, faster, more explosive, athletic, talented, skilled, experienced. What worked in college, may not work in the pros. It requires informed conjecture and a literal act of imagination to project college prospects to the NFL.
Information derived from standardized measureables of the classic triangle numbers (height, weight and speed), strength and explosiveness tests and the agility/COD drills taken at the combine can help to make more informed conjectures about projecting college prospects to the NFL.
Whether we think it should be weighed very heavily or used at all, it can impact scouting judgements and draft decisions. Carey was extremely productive, but tested abominably. With his production, if he had tested like Michael, he almost certainly goes before the fourth round. But there can be variance among teams on this, Jarvis Landry didn't test well, either (reportedly injured at the combine, ran better at his pro day, but bottom line, didn't test well), but it didn't seem to cost him that much, many viewed him as a possible second rounder BEFORE the combine, and he went in the second round, albeit near the end of the round, but about where Randall Cobb went to GB a few years ago. If he had tested as well as his teammate OBJ, he likely would have been drafted even higher.
You bring up a good point with the attribute of vision. But in the absence of a discussion with compelling reasons offered to suggest why we should think that a given prospect that tests out with superior athleticism has inferior vision, if all things were equal, that may be a reason some people opt for the prospect with apparent superior athleticism. Michael isn't JUST a freakish athlete, from what I've seen, he has very natural, pure rushing skills (including vision).
Remember, the question came up, why would some choose Michael over Mason. I suggested athleticism as a reason (as well as Lynch being older than Stacy - I also should have noted Michael plays for SEA and Mason for STL). I'm not suggesting the more athletic player is always the better player, at any position.
Calvin Johnson, if he preserved all his elite body control and agility, but was 5'8" tall, ran a lineman-like 5.0 40 and had a 24" VJ, probably wouldn't have been drafted as high or been as successful an NFL WR as he has been in actuality, being the freakish athlete he is.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
This is some wacky, nutty stuff, but please try to offer some reasons for why you think the way you do.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Changing my vote to neither. I remember selling Stacy primarily because I hate the division he's in. Now he has legit competition while playing for a coach who preferred D. Richardson to him and Steven Jackson at times. I still consider Mason a committee back and the lesser talent. Count me out of this one though.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Thanks for dredging up that painful memory.
Like FF Ninja (and I can't speak for him on this point, but I saw Canidate play), my recollection is he was fast, but small (listed at 5'10", 193 lbs.) and not very powerful. They may have timed him in a post-combine team work out at 4.25 (even if true, no idea how reliable that time would have been, or if it was done by hand). Just to make it explicit, I don't consider speed synonymous with freakish athlete. I don't recall him being characterized as having exceptional athleticism, other than having the attribute of speed going for him. In retrospect, his selection seems like a case of being overdrafted (late first) because Martz fell in love with his speed, and how he might fit in his scheme. He was the guy that drafted Eric Crouch in the third round with the intention of converting a running QB into a WR (in fairness, I guess it worked with Bert Emanuel), and he retired and never played a down for the Rams.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
What was it about Trung Canidate's game that would make you think he was a freakish athlete?
While it's imperfect, the Combine is the standardized test the NFL has adopted to measure athleticism
The long jump measures explosiveness, ONE component of freakish athleticism. Bob Beamon's combine long jump record stood for decades, and he backed it up with freakish athleticism on the field with the Rams.
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I've cited stats similar to that (you can't cherry pick a cherry picker
).In maybe his best four game stretch (weeks 8-11, against SEA, TEN, IND and CHI)...
91-410-4 rushing (4.5 average), which would prorate to 364-1,640-16 rushing (with the immortal Kellen Clemens at QB).
cstu
Footballguy
I don't want to take away from the good things Stacy did but it's some evidence that perhaps Fisher wasn't as happy with Stacy as people think. You normally want to see a player's performance get better at the end of the year, not worse.I've cited stats similar to that (you can't cherry pick a cherry picker
In maybe his best four game stretch (weeks 8-11, against SEA, TEN, IND and CHI)...
91-410-4 rushing (4.5 average), which would prorate to 364-1,640-16 rushing (with the immortal Kellen Clemens at QB).
We've already discussed to death the state of the offense last year so it's not all on Stacy, but those numbers can't be what Fisher wants to see.
Nero
Footballguy
Those last four included two home wins against New Orleans and Tampa Bay where Stacy had a 100 yards rushing in each game, and two road losses against Arizona and Seattle where Stacy combined for 29 carries for 30 yards. The losses were blowout losses against the #1 rushing defense and the #7 rushing defense who had redemption on their mind after allowing Stacy to run for over a 100 in St. Louis. I don't think the numbers suggest anything about Stacy's play given the context.I don't want to take away from the good things Stacy did but it's some evidence that perhaps Fisher wasn't as happy with Stacy as people think. You normally want to see a player's performance get better at the end of the year, not worse.I've cited stats similar to that (you can't cherry pick a cherry picker
In maybe his best four game stretch (weeks 8-11, against SEA, TEN, IND and CHI)...
91-410-4 rushing (4.5 average), which would prorate to 364-1,640-16 rushing (with the immortal Kellen Clemens at QB).
We've already discussed to death the state of the offense last year so it's not all on Stacy, but those numbers can't be what Fisher wants to see.
msommer
Footballguy
Maybe he is getting a qualified back up who can spell his bell cow since he got 250 carries in 11 games and just may have hit the rookie wall. he got 63 touches in week 15 and 16 (and more than 250 total yards in those games).I don't want to take away from the good things Stacy did but it's some evidence that perhaps Fisher wasn't as happy with Stacy as people think. You normally want to see a player's performance get better at the end of the year, not worse.I've cited stats similar to that (you can't cherry pick a cherry picker
In maybe his best four game stretch (weeks 8-11, against SEA, TEN, IND and CHI)...
91-410-4 rushing (4.5 average), which would prorate to 364-1,640-16 rushing (with the immortal Kellen Clemens at QB).
We've already discussed to death the state of the offense last year so it's not all on Stacy, but those numbers can't be what Fisher wants to see.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
In the last month, LT Jake Long suffered a concussion against SF week 13 (ironically, knocking heads with Stacy trying to block the same defender) and tore his ACL week 15. CSTUs contentious time frame, and I agree it makes sense to attend to Nero's point about context and msommer's about heavy usage pointing to hitting the rookie wall (which could be alleviated by having Mason spell him), also intersects on the injury front, and in fact coincides exactly with, starting center Scott Wells missing the last month of the season. WR Tavon Austin also missed the last three games of the season. All in addition to the starting QB, so yeah, I'd say they were pretty decimated and Stacy wasn't exactly primed to explode the last month.
Are you kidding me? That's what these tests at the combine are for. Do you deem them to be just completely irrelevant actions with no pertinence to athletic ability? The derptitude is strong with this one...Judging a persons athleticism is an opinion, are you kidding me?It tends to help. The most important traits of a running back, IMO, are vision, agility, and elusiveness. The best RBs tend to possess at least 2 out of 3 of these. For instance, Lynch had mediocre agility scores, but he forces a lot of missed tackles and breaks a lot of tackles.
No, no it is not an opinion. It is indeed a fact so long as Bob was referring to athleticism.
You have to complete some sort of athletic feat with freakish scores to have any evidence of being an athletic freak. Otherwise, it's just homers saying homer things.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Judging a persons athleticism is an opinion, are you kidding me?
Nobody is saying the Combine is the ONLY way to measure freakish athleticism, but you seem to be trying too hard to dismiss it. It isn't ridiculous as you seem to be implying to have a level playing field as an equalizer in such a standardized set of tests and drills. Regardless of level of competition, team scheme, etc., they are put through the same paces, by position (including position specific field drills).
Let's back up for a second, this has been an unnecessary digression. Michael indisputably TESTED BETTER AT THE COMBINE (that is a fact, not an opinion), while it may not reveal every dimension of athleticism, it's the only standardized test we have. It can be useful in the case of players LIKE Keith Jackson (the GB TE, not the rumblin', stumblin', fum-BLE, Whoa, Nellie! one), who didn't get to catch many passes in the Arkansas scheme, or a player like Sammy Watkins, that ran a lot of bubble screens.
If you mean by freakish athleticism having a broad spectrum of physical abilities and talents that aren't captured in the net of the Combine, you need to offer something more than the too cool for school dismissals, that is like responding to someone stating 2 + 2 = 4 by saying, that's just your opinion. OK, well what is it than? Well I'm not sure, but that's just your opinion.
Maybe Tre Mason's athleticism manifests itself in other ways, who knows (he could be a tiddlywinks prodigy, which reveals information about manual dexterity, or a phenomenal badminton player, which could have implications for reactions and reflexes)?
It's common to call a player that blows up the combine at their respective position (or period*), a FREAKISH ATHLETE, its basically a convention within the sub-set of language found in the scouting community. If you have unconventional, unorthodox definitions of what a freakish athlete is and attempt to sow fuzzy boundary confusion on that basis, you are really just speaking to your highly personal, quirky, idiosyncratic (which rap rhymes with iconoclastic) definition.
There could be a situation where two people are in a concert hall, and one person points at the instrument with all the black and white keys and says that is a piano, and the other says, that is just your opinion, that instrument is a woo woo (nod to Bernie Worrell). The actual referent of the word piano is a psychotic, telepathic, albino penguin that is a Liberace Museum docent. If a lot more people understand the name of the musical instrument to be piano because it is CONVENTION that it is so, than piano refers to the musical instrument and not a psychotic, telepathic, albino penguin that is a Liberace Museum docent, despite any protests to the contrary from the person calling it a woo woo.
It might be more constructive to illustrate this with specific examples. I'll list some players that I think fall into the category of freakish athletes (though admittedly I have no idea if they are good at tiddlywinks or badminton). Feel free to comment, but rather than more too cool for school dismissals, bring some examples to the table yourself. A quick litmus test, though, do you think rookie defenders Clowney and Donald are freakish athletes. How about Calvin Johnson?
2014 Draft
DE - Clowney (similar 40 time to DeAnthony Smith, despite being about 90 lbs. heavier)
DT - Donald (broke the Combine record for a DT with a 4.68 40, also had 35 BP reps)
LB - Shazier (42" VJ, pro day 4.36 at 235+ lbs.)
Deone Buchanon was the biggest and fastest safety among the top prospects at his position (also unusual combo of blow up hitter with 15 career INTs), but I wouldn't put him in the same class. Justin Gilbert is also an extremely impressive athlete, but I don't think as rare as the above three.
RB - Jerick McKinnon (this year's Michael, clearly the freakiest freak at his position in 2014)
LT - Greg Robinson (some would say Lewan, but he is 20 lbs. lighter, Robinson's speed and agility were more impressive for his size)
WR - Donte Moncrief (6'2", 220 lbs., 4.34 40, 39.5" VJ and 11'0" broad jump, BUT, he may have hinky hands, which goes to show freakish athleticism in and of itself doesn't necessarily guarantee success on the gridiron)
Among active players, RG3 is pretty freaky (possibly could have been an Olympic caliber hurdler), Julio Jones, Vernon Davis, Julius Peppers (sixth man on a North Carolina team that made the NCAA tournament), Patrick Peterson (sub-4.4 CB speed in a 220 lb., borderline WLB-sized frame).
You asked, how could people like Michael better than Mason, which should tell you right there you may not think like other people. You were given a few suggestions, didn't address the oversight about Lynch being older than Stacy, and shot down the fact, not opinion, that Michael tested better than Mason at the Combine. Maybe these are related to some deeper, underlying, root misunderstanding. Obviously, if you are underestimating how rare of an athlete Michael is, that could be contributing to the disconnect in Michael's value between you and others. Just because you don't think Michael is a freakish athlete, you don't have to be so insular within your own welded shut beliefs that you are incapable of conceiving of the possibility that others might think that. Or, keep doing what you are doing, and continue to be vexed by the "inexplicable" thoughts and actions of others that aren't like you.
* Pittsburgh's Aaron Donald Was Your Combine MVP
by Chase Stuart
http://www.footballperspective.com/pittsburghs-aaron-donald-was-your-combine-mvp/
Bruce Feldman's 2013 Freak List (College)
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/22278381/freaks-list-the-20-craziest-athletes-in-college-football
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Zac Stacy is the master of tiddlywinks as well Bob. TWBC
*love the telepathic, albino penguin bit. Didn't catch that the 1st go round.
*love the telepathic, albino penguin bit. Didn't catch that the 1st go round.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Just joking about the Liberace Museum docent part, wouldn't want to offend our psychotic, telepathic, albino penguin demographic.Zac Stacy is the master of tiddlywinks as well Bob. TWBC
*love the telepathic, albino penguin bit. Didn't catch that the 1st go round.
jurb26
Footballguy
I know a lot of hockey fans in Pittsburgh who take offense....Just joking about the Liberace Museum docent part, wouldn't want to offend our psychotic, telepathic, albino penguin demographic.Zac Stacy is the master of tiddlywinks as well Bob. TWBC
*love the telepathic, albino penguin bit. Didn't catch that the 1st go round.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
ive never seen anyone toot there own horn the way you do lol....do you point out when you are wrong as vehemently?
Soulfly3
Footballguy
OrangeJulius
Footballguy
cr8f
Footballguy
SecondString
Footballguy
Okay, what's the deal on him as far as pass pro and can he be relied on as a potential three-downer? Serious potential here, not only because he is clearly talented and looks pretty good, but mainly because the Rams have been looking for a way to upgrade the running game from plodder Stacy for a while now, and Cunningham hasn't been nearly talented enough to capitalize. Tre should be given every opportunity, but how ready is he as far as startable? Now / weeks away / not til next season?
kutta
Footballguy
I'll give it to you. Hell of a call.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
bulger2holt
Footballguy
I have been saying all along, Mason is going to be a beast. He should be the #1. Reminds me of Lynch
cstu
Footballguy
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BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
is this still a topic ? Or is this just a ''i told you so '' thread?
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