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UFC wagering: breaking news - judging is so terrible it got me to return here to update this thread title (11 Viewers)

modogg said:
I missed most of it, but it is interesting to see where they are coming from on things. I work in a large urban area with mental/behavior health adolescents and youth so i can see some of it. This is from Ben Fowlkes at mmajunkie (http://mmajunkie.com/2017/05/on-nate-diaz-and-the-allegory-of-the-cafeteria):

If you’ve ever wanted to see life through Nate Diaz’s eyes, you could do a lot worse than what shall henceforth be known as “The Allegory of the Cafeteria.” It goes a little something like this:


“You’re in the school cafeteria, right? Lunch time. Remember high school? And somebody’s like, ‘Hey, look around the room. Who do you want to fight? Who do you want to fight in here?’ Random Tuesday. Week is going fine. Who do you want to fight in this cafeteria? Remember the cafeteria? There’s 300 people in there, right? You look around the room like, ‘(Expletive) man, I don’t really want to fight anybody.’ Will I fight anybody? Yeah, I guess. Do I want to? No. First of all, that’s rude.”



The first thing I should admit here is that I’ve never been in this cafeteria. But now, thanks to Diaz’s eloquence on his very own mid-week episode of “The MMA Hour,” I feel like I have. I can picture it. I can put myself right there at a table with young Nate Diaz, both of us minding our business, dreading fifth period Algebra, just trying to finish our sandwiches and get through the day.

But in this one overcrowded room the threat of violence is never far from our minds, apparently. We don’t seek it out, but we’re ready for it. We have accepted it as a fact of life. We are not particularly happy about it.

To the Diaz brothers, the MMA world is that cafeteria. It always has been. It’s why they keep trying to leave, because they know that while they’re here we won’t ever leave them alone. They keep trying to eat their Cheetos, and we keep poking them in the ribs, saying, “How about that guy over there? Would you fight him?”

It never occurred to us that each time they said yes it might have only been because, for one reason or another, they felt like they couldn’t say no.

This seems especially relevant for Diaz (19-11 MMA,14-9 UFC) now. Two fights with Conor McGregor brought him a lot of money, according to UFC President Dana White, but as he tries to enjoy it the powers that be keep poking him and then pointing across the room at one lightweight or another. How about him? Would you fight him?

The answer lately has been the same: no, no, no. At least not without a significant bump in pay, and therein lies the rub.

Diaz, we’re told, wants too much money. And the UFC remains committed to the idea that he’s a nobody who is powerless to move that stubborn needle, so why should he get a raise? It’s an idea undermined by the continued fascination with him in spite of – or maybe even because of – his inactivity.

Diaz is 3-4 in his past seven fights, and still he gets an “MMA Hour” episode all to himself just to announce that he’s got nothing to announce. What’s more, people actually watched. Why wouldn’t they? How many other fighters could compare this sport to a cafeteria that’s part “Breakfast Club” and part “Shawshank Redemption” and have it all make a strange sort of sense? Who else could entertain fight fans just by explaining why he’s not going to fight?

If you ask fans of theirs to explain the enduring appeal of the two Diaz boys, chances are that at some point they’ll hit on the topic of “realness.” Nick and Nate? Those guys keep it real. There’s something undeniably authentic about them. Even when they don’t make complete sense they somehow make more sense than anyone else.

“If anything I’m like the superhero coming in with this anti-bull(expletive),” Nick said in the lead-up to his fight with Georges St-Pierre. And though we didn’t know exactly what he meant, come on – we knew what he meant.

It’s the same thing now. The UFC offers Nate fights. He turns them down in part because he can, but also because he’s tired of being goaded into cafeteria combat for the benefit of others. He’s tired of being used, in one way or another, and unlike a lot of his peers he recognizes that using people is one of the things the fight game does best.

Why keep playing a game like that if you don’t have to? What do you think he is, crazy? Well, OK, maybe a little crazy, but he’s not nuts. And if you think that alone makes him ill-suited for the world of MMA, what have you just admitted?
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I feel like the diaz brothers are very good journeymen fighters...club fighters so to speak...and thats what club fighters do...they fight anyone put in front of them ...every once in a while a club fighter will get a shot...and if he does he better win because it wont come around again any time too soon

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I feel like the diaz brothers are very good journeymen fighters...club fighters so to speak...and thats what club fighters do...they fight anyone put in front of them ...every once in a while a club fighter will get a shot...and if he does he better win because it wont come around again any time too soon
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They're better than that IMO. Nick held the SF WW belt for a long time and both of them have fought, and often beaten, the best guys in the world for a decade or more. I'd agree that they both seems to have similar and specific weaknesses (wrestling, ring cutting, and defending leg kicks) that will likely always continue to prevent either one from holding a UFC belt, but they're definitely a very tough out for almost anyone -- and anyone who doesn't follow the game plan that you need to beat them is probably going to get their ### whooped.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Look,  I know it was against the rules and I know he was an idiotic for smoking weed before his fight but ### #### this rule is so archaic.

For those that missed it, Gastelum got tested and popped positive for weed.  His fight against against Vitor has been turned into a NC and he is suspended for 90 days.
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Same as the NFL. It's definitely a stupid rule, particularly given that weed is now legal, or at least decriminalized, is a decent-sized chunk of the country. That said, I have a pretty hard time feeling too bad for athletes in any sport that get popped for it; they know the rules going in and still choose to smoke at times when they 100% know that they're likely going to be tested. For Gastelum, right around fight time? Come on -- he deserves everything that he gets, particularly given the related issues of unprofessionalism with his weight cut. Guy is a great fighter, but he's repeatedly put the fights and cards at risk. Maybe cutting him is what he needs to take things more seriously -- worked wonders for Rumble.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
They're better than that IMO. Nick held the SF WW belt for a long time and both of them have fought, and often beaten, the best guys in the world for a decade or more. I'd agree that they both seems to have similar and specific weaknesses (wrestling, ring cutting, and defending leg kicks) that will likely always continue to prevent either one from holding a UFC belt, but they're definitely a very tough out for almost anyone -- and anyone who doesn't follow the game plan that you need to beat them is probably going to get their ### whooped.
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Nick is a step up from Nate ...i agree with that ...and yes they are both very good but there is a reason Nate has never won a belt...he`s tough as nails as most journeymen fighters are ...im not calling them opponent fighters ,which is a fighter that better fighters use to pad a record...they are above that...maybe a few years ago they could Nate could have won a belt but now both he and Nick are what they are ...tough skilled fighters just past their primes...and im not saying they were journeymen fighters years ago...back then they were up and coming talent...maybe they should go over to Bellator ...im sure they could win a belt there

 
BustedKnuckles said:
Nick is a step up from Nate ...i agree with that ...and yes they are both very good but there is a reason Nate has never won a belt...he`s tough as nails as most journeymen fighters are ...im not calling them opponent fighters ,which is a fighter that better fighters use to pad a record...they are above that...maybe a few years ago they could Nate could have won a belt but now both he and Nick are what they are ...tough skilled fighters just past their primes...and im not saying they were journeymen fighters years ago...back then they were up and coming talent...maybe they should go over to Bellator ...im sure they could win a belt there
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I think that exact opposite is true with regard to Nick and Nate, personally. I think that Nick is done as a serious contender, but probably has some great and exciting action fights left in him if he decides that he needs the money. With a gun to my head I'd probably bet that he never fights professionally again, but I wouldn't be too surprised to be wrong on that count either.

Nate just turned 32, and took a decisive win over the current UFC LW champion just over a year ago. I'm sure he's waiting around for the big money rubber match with McGregor, and why wouldn't he? He made enough $$$ from his previous two fights with McGregor that he doesn't need to jump when the UFC tells him to. If Nate is on, I think that he can beat most LWs in the world on any given night, and he has already proven that he can not just beat the reigning LW champ, but make the guy look terrible in the process, so I think that you are writing him off way too early.

And there's not a chance in hell that the UFC lets either Diaz brother fight under another banner if they have fights left on their contracts. They both can still sell fights better than most of the current crop of UFC talent -- and their fights have almost always been viewer-friendly violent barn-burners as well. No way the UFC lets them walk.

 
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Hughes on MMA Hour says he wants to fight again.

I thought UFC did well by him. He had no business in there at UFC level anymore and they gave him a job for many years to do nothing. As bad as the UFC PPV business is right now, his (or Lidell's or Nick Diaz for that matter) is gonna generate a whole helluva more than what they're getting right now.

 
EYLive said:
Well that's dumb as hell. USADA doesn't even test for weed anymore, yet f#cking Brazil is going to cry over Belfort getting smashed?
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I think that they do, actually.

I think that it's on the WADA "banned in competition" list. No idea if they test for it out-of-competition, but I'm pretty sure that they do for in-competition tests, which is what Gastelum failed. He was blazing up in the weeks immediately before the fight knowing 100% that he was going to get screened. Hard to put any blame on anyone other than Gastelum himself IMO.

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Has anyone been destroyed worse than Franklin in those two fights against Silva?   Just brutal beatings.
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Considering Franklin actually deserved to be in both fights, the answer is no.

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
I actually feel bad watching it.   His only loss was to Machida going into that first fight.   Such a mismatch.
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Agreed. And Rich just seems like a genuinely good dude too, never a hint of arrogance or any kind of a-holery. He was pretty much one of the last of that era; guy was a HS math teacher who taught himself jits by watching videos and practicing in a shed in his backyard, and became a UFC champion. And then he just gets completely out-classed by Silva. Still just tough to watch.

 
Clayton Gray said:
Way better than journeyman fighters.
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it's so hard to say with MMA still. Randy Couture had what a .500 record? You get someone like Eddie Alvarez that comes in the UFC and almost eveyr sinlge one of his fights in the UFC is against guys who held the belt, versus other guys who come in and get an easier path with better match-ups. I agree they are more then journeyman, but i would be tempted to say Dan Henderson was somewhat of a journeyman too.  :shrug:

 
modogg said:
it's so hard to say with MMA still. Randy Couture had what a .500 record? You get someone like Eddie Alvarez that comes in the UFC and almost eveyr sinlge one of his fights in the UFC is against guys who held the belt, versus other guys who come in and get an easier path with better match-ups. I agree they are more then journeyman, but i would be tempted to say Dan Henderson was somewhat of a journeyman too.  :shrug:




 
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I don't think I understand what journeyman means.

 
I think of these types of fighters when journeyman is said:

Phil Baroni
Brian Ebersole
Travis Fulton
Gary Goodridge
Clay Guida
Ed Herman
Heath Herring
Chris Lytle
Jason MacDonald
Mike Pyle
Alessio Sakara
Evangelista Santos
Pete Spratt
Gleison Tibau

 
Clayton Gray said:
I think of these types of fighters when journeyman is said:

Phil Baroni
Brian Ebersole
Travis Fulton
Gary Goodridge
Clay Guida
Ed Herman
Heath Herring
Chris Lytle
Jason MacDonald
Mike Pyle
Alessio Sakara
Evangelista Santos
Pete Spratt
Gleison Tibau
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I just think it is hard with MMA, and the UFC as of late, because guys match-ups and fights not always based on skill. Everybody's favorite examples of Sage Northcutt and CM Punk always resonate, but a guy like Gleison Tibau i would see above a lot of those guys. 

And yeah, for the same of this discussion, Nate and Nick are above those guys

 
and i know people love them some Conner McGreggor cause he can run his mouth a lot, but give me Jon Jones talking smack to Cormier any day over McGreggor. this one is a pretty good one:

http://mmajunkie.com/2017/05/ufc-jon-jones-daniel-cormier-theory-why-fans-relate

Via mmafighting.com:


“Lately I’ve been having to do a little more talking because the fans have … they’ve kind of turned on me – which is OK. I get it. It’s OK. But I kind of relate myself to Roman Reigns, John Cena, those types of guys, guys that are supposed to be good guys, but the fans just have something that they don’t like, something that doesn’t resonate with them. So I’ve kind of been having to talk a little bit more, and it’s refreshing. …

“People don’t want to be told, ‘I’m good, so you should cheer for me.’ Jon Jones is a guy that has made a lot of mistakes, so maybe people relate to him more. They go, ‘Forget this Daniel Cormier goody two-shoes, him and his kids and his family. I want the guy that does coke and parties and crashes cars. That’s the guy I want.’

“Maybe I’m not cool enough because I go to work, I fight. When I’m not fighting I go back, and I go to my kids’ soccer and baseball games. That’s what I do. I go to wrestling. I’m not out partying. I’m not out doing all kinds of crazy stuff. Maybe I’m just too boring, but I’m fine with it. I like my life.”



Jones (22-1 MMA, 16-1 UFC) caught word of these remarks by Cormier (19-1 MMA, 8-1 UFC) and responded today on Twitter how you would expect.








 
 Follow


Jon Bones Jones 


 
✔@JonnyBones



Can someone tell DC he's a great guy and pat him on the back so we can move on already. #TheChampIsHerehttps://twitter.com/fightersxchange/status/861592807777198080 …


2:26 PM - 8 May 2017






 
modogg said:
it's so hard to say with MMA still. Randy Couture had what a .500 record? You get someone like Eddie Alvarez that comes in the UFC and almost eveyr sinlge one of his fights in the UFC is against guys who held the belt, versus other guys who come in and get an easier path with better match-ups. I agree they are more then journeyman, but i would be tempted to say Dan Henderson was somewhat of a journeyman too.  :shrug:
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Hugely disagree with this. IMO Hendo is a first ballot HOFer. Yes, he probably tried to hold on too long and was a shell of his former self by the end, but up until his final stretch back in the UFC he was absolutely a great fighter. He fought the best guys in the world in multiple weight classes across multiple organizations and won far more often than he lost. Not a whole lot of guys with wins over Noguera, Fedor, Wanderlei, Belfort, Shogun, and Franklin on the resume -- that's 6 rock solid future HOFers that he beat over his career, many of them while they were in (or at least close to) their primes.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
Hugely disagree with this. IMO Hendo is a first ballot HOFer. Yes, he probably tried to hold on too long and was a shell of his former self by the end, but up until his final stretch back in the UFC he was absolutely a great fighter. He fought the best guys in the world in multiple weight classes across multiple organizations and won far more often than he lost. Not a whole lot of guys with wins over Noguera, Fedor, Wanderlei, Belfort, Shogun, and Franklin on the resume -- that's 6 rock solid future HOFers that he beat over his career, many of them while they were in (or at least close to) their primes.
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i hugely disagree as well, but just saying how do you judge a journeyman? I simply don't know. Does holding a belt at one point make you not a journeyman? I was just suggesting that in MMA and the UFC in particular, it can be tough. I was thinking of a guy like Will Brooks, seems to have all the tools and is legit, but has struggled mightily in the UFC. And Randy Couture's record would certainly make you think he is possibly a journeyman, until you look at who he actually fought and realize all of his fights were against top guys. Then you look at some other guys at the top of divisions and you realize they had like 2-3 fights against top guys.

it's just weird, I don't f'n know

 
The Gator said:
Pretty excite to watch Maia.

how is Masvidal's ground game? 
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it has gotten better over the years, but we haven't seen too many people test it. Maia doesn't have the best takedowns either. but that fight will be fun and interesting.

I'm really hoping Eddie bounces back after his debacle with McGreggor and takes out Poirer. that is one of those fights where I would like both guys to win cause I like them both, but it is certainly a good test for both.

 
modogg said:
i hugely disagree as well, but just saying how do you judge a journeyman? I simply don't know. Does holding a belt at one point make you not a journeyman? I was just suggesting that in MMA and the UFC in particular, it can be tough. I was thinking of a guy like Will Brooks, seems to have all the tools and is legit, but has struggled mightily in the UFC. And Randy Couture's record would certainly make you think he is possibly a journeyman, until you look at who he actually fought and realize all of his fights were against top guys. Then you look at some other guys at the top of divisions and you realize they had like 2-3 fights against top guys.

it's just weird, I don't f'n know
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Long career, never a legit title contender IMO. Bisping would have been the perfect example if he had lost to Silva.

Dolloway

Boetsch

Tom Lawlor

Cote (lets not pretend he had a chance vs Silva)

Saunders

 
must be so weird to be Joe Stevenson, or some of these other guys on this season of TUF. Stevenson is older then most of these guys i believe, and seeing TJ and Cody just argue has to drive him nuts. I am an episode or 2 behind, but still hoping that he has something in him to at least win a few fights

 
What book do you guys use for betting on MMA? 

I am staring at Maia at +110 and love it.

Will wait to see what he is for a submission win or inside distance but it seems juicy.

Bunch of pretty even lines for Saturday.

 
GOB said:
What book do you guys use for betting on MMA? 

I am staring at Maia at +110 and love it.

Will wait to see what he is for a submission win or inside distance but it seems juicy.

Bunch of pretty even lines for Saturday.
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plenty of books out there. 5dimes is always good with lots of options. sportsbook.au. pretty much all books have MMA now, look at different books and see which one gives you the best bonus or value for depositing and starting with them. The wagering thread can probably list 10-12 off the top of everyone's head

 
GSP's first fight back IMO always should have been Silva. The "superfight" that never was.

UFC has egg all over their face here. :lol:  Now we'll get Dana piling on GSP.

 
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modogg said:
and UFC seems to be winging it with a lot of stuff they are doing these days. The MW title picture is just stupid, and now MMAJunkie is repoirting Bisping-GSP is now off and Bisping is fighting Romero for the belt. What a freaking crazy 5-6 months with this MW division:   http://mmajunkie.com/2017/05/dana-white-michael-bisping-vs-georges-st-pierre-title-fight-off-yoel-romero-gets-next-shot
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The fight that always should have been made.  :thumbup:  to the UFC. The fact that Bisping is probably going to get the $hit kicked out of him makes it even better. Although with Dana as the only source, I'm sure that nothing is set in stone yet.

ETA: Romero is a giant doosh too, but still think that I hate Bisping more.

 
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Watched my first (probably last) episode of this season of tuf. Only made me realize how long ago quit watching this show. No clue who 75% of these guys are.

Unless crowning champ or some interesting idea, let this series rest. I really don't get having season comprised mostly of guys on seasons no one watched. The forced coach interactions/confrontations are cringe. 

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Watched my first (probably last) episode of this season of tuf. Only made me realize how long ago quit watching this show. No clue who 75% of these guys are.

Unless crowning champ or some interesting idea, let this series rest. I really don't get having season comprised mostly of guys on seasons no one watched. The forced coach interactions/confrontations are cringe. 
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Hangin' with the boys

Hangin' with the boyyyys

I guess if you watched episode 1 of this season then you won't get that

 
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Craig_MiamiFL said:
Watched my first (probably last) episode of this season of tuf. Only made me realize how long ago quit watching this show. No clue who 75% of these guys are.

Unless crowning champ or some interesting idea, let this series rest. I really don't get having season comprised mostly of guys on seasons no one watched. The forced coach interactions/confrontations are cringe. 




 
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I watch every episode. The first 2/3ds of the show is just background noise as I do whatever. Then I watch the fight.

 
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