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Mortgage Rates (5 Viewers)

CletiusMaximus said:
If there's an accepted offer on the house, what better indicator of value is possible? These guys get a couple hundred bucks to produce a report. They're not going to stick their necks out based on some comps or a tax value.
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We bought this house 3 years ago while renting it. We had looked at comparable homes and came to an agreement with the landlord for $330k. Right in line with comparable homes. Got an inspection just because we don't necessarily know what we don't know, that came back fine as expected.  Went for a VA loan as that provided the best rates. 

VA sends their appraisal, came back $15k under ($315k). The comps he used were ridiculous, homes that were on main streets with trailers on both sides, less than half the acreage, in much worse condition, etc. I thought about appealing, but instead split the difference with the landlord, paid a bit more out of pocket but we love this house. It backs to a greenway with a huge backyard, it's well built. 

The VA had to know the loan amount, or could have easily found it, but instead seems to have intentionally low balled. Worked to our benefit, but still it was surprising.

How accurate are Zillow estimates? Zillow lists the house at $357 now, which would mean we're finally at 20% equity (which doesn't matter for VA, but might if we ever wanted a HELOC)

 
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Is USDA new to the mortgage business?  Sold two houses this year, both went through USDA.  They they take an absurd about of time to get things to the table.  

 
-OZ- said:
How accurate are Zillow estimates? Zillow lists the house at $357 now, which would mean we're finally at 20% equity (which doesn't matter for VA, but might if we ever wanted a HELOC)
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Depends on the market but from what I understand they’re wrong more than they’re right. Generally inflated. 

Look at recent sales in your area on the app to see where they are getting their numbers from. I thought my Zestimate was high until I saw the house 2 doors down (smaller, worse floor plan) went for that. 

 
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Zillow is pretty garbage in areas where comps are not in public domain.  

In our area they base it nearly exclusively on tax values which are usually 20-30% low at a minimum.  

They set my house at like 445 but bare dirt is going for 400. 

 
-OZ- said:
How accurate are Zillow estimates? Zillow lists the house at $357 now, which would mean we're finally at 20% equity (which doesn't matter for VA, but might if we ever wanted a HELOC)
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:lmao:

I have to chime in here.  I've had my rental at the beach in one year vary between 325k and 825k.  Then, funny enough, they do a global recalculation retroactively change all of their guesses.  Then on to a new wild scheme that grossly misvalues the property.   During that time they had a 1000sqft. house (older place) beachside valued at 80k.  Yeah, I would have cut a check in a heartbeat for it - easily worth 5x that.

If it's a cookie cutter place, maybe it's ok.  If it has any variable out of the ordinary...

 
Yeah Zestimates aren't worth the paper they are printed on in many areas. If it's cookie cutter and a lot of very recent sales that match your house exactly they can work, but so many variables and their data is still very incomplete in many places. I routinely see them have square footage wrong for example because they are basing off of tax records or barely have any info at all on the house because it hasn't been listed on the MLS in the last 10~15 years. Some of that will go away with time as inventory turns over and their data gets better. But I have yet to see them factor in finishes and such at all. So for example, comparing a run down dump vs a new, totally remodeled house vs a pride of ownership type place.

Zillow has gotten into remodels recently too, I don't see how they are making money except for the crazy fees they charge sellers to sell to them (they make sellers pay for repairs to get it ready to be relisted and it comes out of their 'great' offer.) In my area they put the same ugly, drab brown carpet in every house they do, whether its a 300K entry level home or a 640K house that I saw listed last week. Not sure what they are thinking on those.

 
Is Redfin in the same boat, accuracy wise?  There’s a huge difference between them and Zillow in estimated value for my house, despite the fact that there are a ton of comp sales in my area so you’d think there would be a lot of good data for their algorithms. Zillow seems to be on the low side here. 

 
The best thing about Zillow is clicking on those yellow "recently solds" in your neighborhood and comparing, particularly if there are interior pictures and other data posted.   For most homes in urban/suburban areas, if you look at enough of them, you should have a good idea of your value.  

 
Zillow estimates are bogus. They had our house at 440. Realtor wanted to list the house at 500. We did. Next day the Zillow estimate is 495. We had a decent amount of traffic but no offers in two weeks. Dropped the price to 475. Next day the Zillow estimate is 478.  We sell the house for 469. Zillow estimate has been 468 since then. Their estimate follows not leads.

 
Bucky86 said:
Redfin is much closer in my area. Zillow is crazy inflated, like 15-20%.
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Redfin is $353, Zillow $357.  Seems close enough.

It might help that there are ~700 homes for sale in town, most last less than a month on the market

 
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Walking Boot said:
Yeah, my Zillow estimate isn't terrible, but, I sure do wish it was more than just $/sqft in their calculations.

For example, another house in my area just sold, same model, same floorplan, same size, same beds & baths... just another cookie cutter, which should be a good gauge. But, looking at the pictures, it's definitely in pre-flip mode: it's got a 60s/70s/80s interior, carpet, knotty pine, brown stove in the kitchen, linoleum, etc. Zillow just dropped my estimate down to match that house, but my interior was updated and is in way better shape. 

Meanwhile, Redfin is just 12% higher for no good reason apparently. 
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Redfin has me about 30k lower than Zillow, but I would imagine the true value is quite a bit closer to the redfin estimate.

 
Was curious so thought I would check, Redfin is about 37K more on its estimate than Zillow is for my house. And Redfin is easily 42K under what I know a good approximate market value would be for my house right now based on comps in the neighborhood. As far as accuracy, Zillow has my square footage 1300 less than what it really is.

 
Buckna said:
Was curious so thought I would check, Redfin is about 37K more on its estimate than Zillow is for my house. And Redfin is easily 42K under what I know a good approximate market value would be for my house right now based on comps in the neighborhood. As far as accuracy, Zillow has my square footage 1300 less than what it really is.
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Redfin had our house at 2600', 2 bedroom, 2 bath. But it let me adjust it so now it's right. 3500, 4/3.5

 
Just locked at 3.625% on 20Y Fixed Cash Out (no points).
$1050 Origination Fees. $880 Title fees. $500 Appraisal

PenFed (Current mortgage holder) was impossible to get ahold of, or to get a callback. :thumbdown:
LenderFi (The guy who's info is being passed around via PM) sucked at callbacks too. :thumbdown:

Found this woman Tina with a smaller company and she's been incredible. Texting, emailing, calling as needed. Super nice. Been doing this 20 years. :thumbup:

 
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Zillow = 168k

Redfin = 176k

A house two doors down with the same layout as mine, they have a "partial" finished basement but older bathroom/kitchen than mine sold for 180k. I think my house could get at least that amount if not more.

 
I hadn't looked in a while, so for ####s and giggles went and checked.  My residence on Zillow is actually pretty close, but they somehow chose to cut our listed square footage in half at some point.  No idea.  At the rental they have the value of the house plummeting 200+k since March.  Heck, the house isn't worth that much - the dirt is what has all the value.  You'd think the place burned down.  I'd call that 0/2.

Redfin is close on the residence and they have the square footage right; they don't cover the rental.

 
Zillow and Redfin are within a few K of each other for mine.  House next door recently sold and it sold for basically what both had it prior to it going on the market. Small sample size but they seems to be close in my area

 
Appraisers are usually very good.  Yes they spend 1 hour at the house.  They probably spend 3-4 hours reviewing comps and filing out their report.  They will always try to get a house to the contract price.  They don't want to stop a deal unless it really is a bad one for the bank.  If they can't, they have a lot of questions to answer.  They are more strict with VA/FHA loans since those have specific rules that each house has to meet to qualify for a loan.  And they don't get the $600.  They probably get $300 and their company gets the rest.  So $300 for 4-5 hours of work.   The fear is the bank sends someone with no local knowledge.  That can result in a total mess of an appraisal.

Zillow is good for a ball park figure.  Nothing more.  Their formula doesn't take into account quality of finishes, renovations, quality of lot, etc.  Many times the tax records are wrong and it pulls from those.  Those can push up/down a house by a significant amount.  I always recommend sellers let their agent take over their Zillow page, and the agent edit it to help push up the value.  We do it.  Zillows end goal is not to provide the consumer with data.  It is to sell to agents by charging an enormous amount to be a Zillow Premier agent.  Some agents in our office pay them over $20K/month.  We don't pay them at all.  By clicking anything on their site, whether you want to buy or sell, you will be directed to one of their premier agents.  That agent has to answer the lead immediately (like within 6 rings), or it moves to the next premier agent.  It's a good model for Zillow and those paying for premier agent.  IMO it's not good for the seller though as their agent is not listed with the property.  There are so many dead leads and the sellers agents are chasing down people with no real intent to buy their home.  The kicker will be if Amazon and Zillow team up, and Zillow becomes a brokerage rather than just a website.  Redfin recently tried a similar apprpoach with Keller Williams where Redfin brought the leads to KW agents since their own agents weren't good enough to handle transactions.  It only lasted about a month before KW backed out of the agreement.

Redfin has a very nice website.  But the purpose of it is solely to push you to their agents.  You click the anything on the webpage, and you go to a Redfin agent.  Essentially they drop you into their queue, their system tries to pair you with an available agent based on their scheduling algorithm, and they show you the house.  The next time you may get a different agent.  Same for their sales side.  They swap agents around on you, especially if you complain.  I get a lot of clietns from people that got frustrated with the Redfin system.  Like with all brokerages, you get good and bad agents.  Some Redfin agents are good.  But overall the experience is not.  Once you find the house or sell your house with them, you get passed on to the processing group, and have to re-explain your situation to  whomever that is.  Their 1.5% listing fee is real, but you are still paying a buyer co-op the same as any other time you list.  So you are saving about 1% and often (not always) getting a poor experience.  I wouldn't ever use them, but their discount model fits a need for some sellers.

The industry is really changing.  Commissions are more like 2.5% list and 2.5% buy these days.  Redfin has forced that somewhat.  And when the various MLS decided to sell the data to 3rd party sites like Zillow, it opened up a whole can of worms where agents no longer owned their own listings.  Everything starts on the internet.  So agents really have to show their value these days.  Which is a good thing.  Some people will never see the value in an realtor any more than they see it in a lawyer.  But it is the biggest transaction in most people's lives.  I'm not sure I'd go on the cheap for that.

 
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cosjobs said:
sounds as if they are following the industry standard
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USDA is very strict and updated a lot of their guidelines last December. If the loan officer doesn't do a lot of them they can take awhile, especially considering they have to actually be reviewed by USDA before closing.

 
CR69 said:
USDA is very strict and updated a lot of their guidelines last December. If the loan officer doesn't do a lot of them they can take awhile, especially considering they have to actually be reviewed by USDA before closing.
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This is where things have been stuck for a week or more.  Title, appraisal, inspections all done.  We're waiting on the USDA final review.

 
Random said:
This is where things have been stuck for a week or more.  Title, appraisal, inspections all done.  We're waiting on the USDA final review.
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Like everyone else, USDA is getting backed up. We used to have 24-48 turn times and now it's 3-5 days. Another variable is the package put together by the lender. If it's sloppy or incomplete, it might be going back and forth between the lender and USDA. USDA (along with every other program) also tightened up their automated approvals over the last month. We've had several files that got approval suddenly switch to a manual underwrite when nothing in the file changed. It's made for an interesting month lol.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Zillow estimates are bogus. They had our house at 440. Realtor wanted to list the house at 500. We did. Next day the Zillow estimate is 495. We had a decent amount of traffic but no offers in two weeks. Dropped the price to 475. Next day the Zillow estimate is 478.  We sell the house for 469. Zillow estimate has been 468 since then. Their estimate follows not leads.
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I don’t want to say anything but the original Zillow estimate was closer to the final sale than your realtor. That said, I’d expect Zillow’s prices to change reflecting the sale. I’m surprised to see it changing based on the listing prices unless you are in an area with fewer recent sales so the listing prices have more of an impact.

I think my estimate is pretty close just based on raw numbers because there are enough comparable sales. 

 
I just heard back from one of the lenders I contacted. I had anywhere from 3.75% for $3800 on a 30yr to 3.50% for $5300 on a 30yr. I'm having her check  on 20yr and 15yr as well, but the other two lenders I spoke to mentioned in the neighborhood of closing costs from $4k - $7k. The only "no fee" one mentioned to me is at 4.25%. Am I just doing it wrong or am I asking the wrong lenders? I've pinged both big banks and small, local lenders so far.

 
[icon] said:
Just locked at 3.625% on 20Y Fixed Cash Out (no points).
$1050 Origination Fees. $880 Title fees. $500 Appraisal

PenFed (Current mortgage holder) was impossible to get ahold of, or to get a callback. :thumbdown:
LenderFi (The guy who's info is being passed around via PM) sucked at callbacks too. :thumbdown:

Found this woman Tina with a smaller company and she's been incredible. Texting, emailing, calling as needed. Super nice. Been doing this 20 years. :thumbup:
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I locked in yesterday with the LenderFi guy (Thanks @shady inc and @skycriesmary!) Had a great experience so far. Guy answered my first call

3.375% 30 yr. No appraisal. Only $436 in fees.

 
Gianni Verscotchie said:
I locked in yesterday with the LenderFi guy (Thanks @shady inc and @skycriesmary!) Had a great experience so far. Guy answered my first call

3.375% 30 yr. No appraisal. Only $436 in fees.
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They’re surely not doing this for free. I get the no appraisal (I only needed because of a cash out), but $436 doesn’t cover title fees or taxes let alone their pay. I’m assuming some was rolled into the mortgage. 

 
I have an appraiser heading to my house this afternoon due to a refi. I had 27 years left on my last refi at 3.75%. Got 3.0% on a 15 year so pretty happy. Monthly payment is going up around $800/month but sold some stock to pay off my wife’s car so absent that monthly payment it is close to a wash. No debt outside the house now and would like to pay off the house in 10 years to coincide with my second kid starting college. Not sure I can pull that off but that would be ideal.

So we just finished our basement but didn’t pull any permits for it. Is the appraiser going to ask or check on that?

 
Snickers said:
I have an appraiser heading to my house this afternoon due to a refi. I had 27 years left on my last refi at 3.75%. Got 3.0% on a 15 year so pretty happy. Monthly payment is going up around $800/month but sold some stock to pay off my wife’s car so absent that monthly payment it is close to a wash. No debt outside the house now and would like to pay off the house in 10 years to coincide with my second kid starting college. Not sure I can pull that off but that would be ideal.

So we just finished our basement but didn’t pull any permits for it. Is the appraiser going to ask or check on that?
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I don't know, but overall that's such a poor idea. 

 
stbugs said:
I don’t want to say anything but the original Zillow estimate was closer to the final sale than your realtor. That said, I’d expect Zillow’s prices to change reflecting the sale. I’m surprised to see it changing based on the listing prices unless you are in an area with fewer recent sales so the listing prices have more of an impact.

I think my estimate is pretty close just based on raw numbers because there are enough comparable sales. 
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Curious, although this might not be your point. How much difference are y'all seeing between list and actual sale? Everyone I've talked to here sells at their listing price, quickly. Usually it's a race with extra offers of cash, waiving inspection, etc. The listing prices are probably way too low but this seems to hold true even a couple hours north of us where my in laws sold and bought recently.

 
Snickers said:
I have an appraiser heading to my house this afternoon due to a refi. I had 27 years left on my last refi at 3.75%. Got 3.0% on a 15 year so pretty happy. Monthly payment is going up around $800/month but sold some stock to pay off my wife’s car so absent that monthly payment it is close to a wash. No debt outside the house now and would like to pay off the house in 10 years to coincide with my second kid starting college. Not sure I can pull that off but that would be ideal.

So we just finished our basement but didn’t pull any permits for it. Is the appraiser going to ask or check on that?
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They aren't code inspectors.  

 
-OZ- said:
Curious, although this might not be your point. How much difference are y'all seeing between list and actual sale? Everyone I've talked to here sells at their listing price, quickly. Usually it's a race with extra offers of cash, waiving inspection, etc. The listing prices are probably way too low but this seems to hold true even a couple hours north of us where my in laws sold and bought recently.
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I have no idea. I’m 10+ years out from moving/retiring so I hear sales and see flyers but I have no clue about initial price to final sale. Things appear to go pretty quickly and Charlotte/NC is growing like crazy so I’d assume prices aren’t going down much. 

 
[icon] said:
They’re surely not doing this for free. I get the no appraisal (I only needed because of a cash out), but $436 doesn’t cover title fees or taxes let alone their pay. I’m assuming some was rolled into the mortgage. 
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$436 is only the lender fee. It does not include the FL doc stamps, taxes and other prepaids that would need to be paid in any refi.

For comparison, I went to my Credit Union first. They gave me a rate of 3.75 (LenderFi is 3.375)

Origination Fee of $800 plus points of $1,332. LenderFi does not charge this fee and no points.

Credit Union wanted an appraisal for $500. LenderFi said no appraisal.

I'm now certain that the Credit Union can be beaten by just about anyone. Regardless, the LenderFi deal is good, if not great.

 
NutterButter said:
Jesus.  That's awesome.  Did you get a rate for a 15 yr?   I was gonna wait until the recession begins but at that rate, might just do it now.   
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I checked on a 20 year. Same rate, but more fees. Didn't make sense for me.

 
[icon] said:
They’re surely not doing this for free. I get the no appraisal (I only needed because of a cash out), but $436 doesn’t cover title fees or taxes let alone their pay. I’m assuming some was rolled into the mortgage. 
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When I used them they offered about a grand in lender credits to offset fees, so there's a good chance it wasn't rolled into the mortgage. LenderFi was easily the best experience I've had ever doing a refi. From rate, communication, and efficiency, it couldn't have been better.

 
FBG26 said:
According to Bankrate.com, the 5/1 Arm is 3.89% and the 30 year fixed is 3.75%. Usually you'd expect the ARM to have a lower rate, otherwise why go with the ARM at all?  
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I just did a 10/1 ARM that was over half a point lower than a 30 yr fixed. That's why I was asking.

 
gianmarco said:
I just did a 10/1 ARM that was over half a point lower than a 30 yr fixed. That's why I was asking.
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We are in an inverted yield curve (short term rates are higher than long term rates), which last happened around 2003.

Very unique and many times see this happen before a recession.

 
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10 year Treasury yield has cratered, meanwhile mortgage rates have actually ticked up slightly. Strange world we live in right now.

 
Turns out I wasn’t borrowing enough to deal with Lender Fi anyway (he finally called a week later). They won’t work with cash out refi below $125k. Wanted me to cash out more equity.. no thanks :)  

 
BeTheMatch said:
Just wanted to say thanks to @skycriesmary and @shady inc for the referral to Lender Fi.

Just locked in a no-cost re-fi at 3.375% for 15 years. And 6-month rate insurance too, so that's a nice bonus!

Guy at Lender Fi says, "You're one of those FootballGuys too? My god, we're getting tons of business from whatever that is!" 🤣
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Guy I am working with from LenderFi said that he’s recently worked with people from a football message board as well. Mine isn’t a re-fi, but I locked in a no points 30 yr 3.375% as well. 

 
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