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Is Atheism Irrational? NYTimes Opinion Piece (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Klimtology
- Start date
em.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
popsecret
Footballguy
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I'm not sure where the 0.07% number comes from, because when you click through to the link provided in the alternet article, it says 0.2% (consistent with the paper I linked to).
In any case, atheists make up far more than 0.2% of the population in the U.S., so there's really no question that they're underrepresented among the prison population. You can argue that correlation doesn't signal causation in this case, and you may be right, but the correlation is unmistakable.
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Oh, never mind -- I can answer my own question by reading that link through to the bottom. It discusses where the 0.2% number purported to come from, and then offers a more recent and more reliable number of 0.07% (based on a FOIA request granted by the Federal Bureau of Prisons). (It would be 0.09% if we excluded prisoners of unknown religious preference from the denominator.)
So it looks like the best answer we have is that atheists make up around 0.07%-0.09% of the American prison population (though it's impossible to measure perfectly).
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cstu
Footballguy
I'm definitely switching to Christianity when I get popped - you don't get parole by saying you've changed after accepting the FSM into your life.
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CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
I'm sure it's very relaxing and calming to put your life in the hands of the supernatural.
You can relieve a lot of stress and depression by setting aside any personal accountability for things and saying "God will provide".
matuski
Footballguy
No doubt one of the original purposes man created religion.. to help cope.I'm sure it's very relaxing and calming to put your life in the hands of the supernatural.
You can relieve a lot of stress and depression by setting aside any personal accountability for things and saying "God will provide".
Life is difficult.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Please stop helping. Thanks.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Lots of people turn to religion in prison. This is like asking for stats on who stays aetheist when their car is crashing or their plane is going down. Probably a low percentage when that moment arrives.
matuski
Footballguy
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
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JZilla
Footballguy
Some of you guys need to get it into your thick skulls that people who have freed themselves of mythological fantasy don't think like the rest of you
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Cliff, Mat, Zilla, I'm not really invested in this debate, at least not in this thread. It's just pretty basic that a lot maybe most people break down and reach out to a higher power when the chips are down. You guys have a lot of intellectual rigor so I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue for you, but let's face the jails are full of the desperate who find God and people hit the ground hands clasped when they are faced with their final moments. No reflection on you of course.
JZilla
Footballguy
OK, apologies for what I said about your skull.. I would call those people who go to prison with little to no religion "agnostic" if anything
matuski
Footballguy
I still don't understand.
Which god would they be clasping their hands to? Do they draw straws? Flip a coin?
The last thing on earth a person who does not believe in the existence of a god would do is start talking to one. Why waste time on imaginary friends when I have plenty of real friends and family to hold on to at the end?
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Its kind of like joining a gang. Everyone else in prison is religious so you gotta play the part to fit in.
matuski
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Well that would be an intellectual choice, a calculation even. That could happen in these situations.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You seem to be asking me to get into a discussion about physical reality, I'm just making a point about people in prison and the numbers of people who say they are atheist.
And I am not speaking of you, as you sound pretty mentally rigorous as I mentioned before. It's sort of like shooting a gun to kill someone, until a person is in that moment they really don't know what they will do. (Not you of course).
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I don't think I understand the straw man comment (2nd time there). I'm not saying you're weak or that atheists are not legitimate about their beliefs. You call it "bad choices", fine, that's what it is, but it happens.
The plane crash argument is not a straw man. A straw man is a misrepresentation of the opposing side's argument. When theists talk about plane crashes, that is their own argument, not the other side's.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
It's a misrepresentation of the opposing side's supporting fact to the argument. It's not to support their own side of the argument because there wasn't any statement to whether the people in the car/plane were criminals or not. Maybe not a straw man in it's strictest definition, but, just as irrelevant.
cstu
Footballguy
Even if in a desperate moment an atheist clings to ideas they were taught as a child it doesn't mean it's real.
If my daughter was trapped at the North Pole she'd probably start crying out for Santa, but he's not going to show up.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Article on the increasing trend of people identifying as "nones" Nothing we haven't discussed before I guess. I did find this note interesting..
This article was linked on the Atheism subreddit..a forum which usually has some good content if interests anyone.
SELECTION BIAS AND ATHEIST STEREOTYPES
Scott Alexander
May 4, 2013
Have people considered before that the stereotype of the loud angry atheist may be entirely a result of selection bias?
Consider the average person’s experience with religious people. You see religious people going to church. You notice them wearing necklaces with crosses or Stars of David or dharma wheels on them. Sometimes they quote the Bible or the Quran, or they pray for things. Sometimes they run hospitals or schools or monasteries. The Pope occasionally shows up on TV telling people they should probably have fewer wars and famines and see if that works out for them.
And yes, occasionally religious people rant about how much they hate atheism, or the various other religions. But it’s hardly the only time you ever hear about them.
On the other hand, consider the average person’s experience with atheists. They may know many atheists. Their next door neighbor, or boss, or close friend might be an atheist. But they don’t hear about it. It rarely comes up in random conversation. Atheists don’t all go to one specific building, they mostly don’t wear necklaces, they don’t have holidays where they eat special atheist foods or dress up in special atheist costumes, and there’s no St. Lucretius’ Atheist Hospital.
Pretty much the only time you ever hear about atheists, unless you go looking for them, is when an atheist is criticizing religion or standing up for some kind of atheist cause. And so the reasoning goes: “Atheists must be bizarrely obsessed with religion, all the atheists I know about seem really into attacking it.”
But this is about the same reasoning pattern as “About half the medieval Europeans who I’ve heard of are kings; therefore I estimate medieval Europe had about one king for every two people.”
My guess is that most atheists, in the sense of people who don’t believe in God, rarely talk or think about it. But they don’t get much attention, and if they do, it’s not as atheists. “Famous atheists” brings up Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens – not Lance Armstrong and Maurice Sendak. If there wasn’t a selection bias in terms of whose atheism gets noticed more, we would end up with the stereotype that atheists ride bikes and draw awesome pictures of cartoon monsters.
I wonder just how far this bias goes in creating stereotypes. It seems most likely to be a factor when there’s a group that’s hard to identify except when it engages in activities stereotypically associated with that group, and which might be geographically/socially sorted well enough that members of other groups rarely come in contact with them naturally.
Anti-Muslim stereotypes might come from such a source. If people live in an area without Muslims – or if Muslims tend to be segregated from non-Muslims – then someone might only hear about them when they’re fulfilling some kind of negative Muslim stereotype. I actually think the same is true of Christians – if someone lives in a very secular area, most of the Christianity they hear about could be some kind of very extreme televangelist.
And although this is a stretch, the same might apply to groups that are easily identifiable if people don’t think of the concrete examples they know qua group membership. Imagine you interact with your friend Juan – because Juan is great – and your friend Pedro – because he’s great too – and then you hear a story about Mexicans illegally crossing the border, and that activates your “Mexican” category much more than Juan and Pedro do, because they’re just ordinary guys.
And okay, that’s just wild speculation. I’m pretty convinced about the atheism one, though.
Scott Alexander
May 4, 2013
Have people considered before that the stereotype of the loud angry atheist may be entirely a result of selection bias?
Consider the average person’s experience with religious people. You see religious people going to church. You notice them wearing necklaces with crosses or Stars of David or dharma wheels on them. Sometimes they quote the Bible or the Quran, or they pray for things. Sometimes they run hospitals or schools or monasteries. The Pope occasionally shows up on TV telling people they should probably have fewer wars and famines and see if that works out for them.
And yes, occasionally religious people rant about how much they hate atheism, or the various other religions. But it’s hardly the only time you ever hear about them.
On the other hand, consider the average person’s experience with atheists. They may know many atheists. Their next door neighbor, or boss, or close friend might be an atheist. But they don’t hear about it. It rarely comes up in random conversation. Atheists don’t all go to one specific building, they mostly don’t wear necklaces, they don’t have holidays where they eat special atheist foods or dress up in special atheist costumes, and there’s no St. Lucretius’ Atheist Hospital.
Pretty much the only time you ever hear about atheists, unless you go looking for them, is when an atheist is criticizing religion or standing up for some kind of atheist cause. And so the reasoning goes: “Atheists must be bizarrely obsessed with religion, all the atheists I know about seem really into attacking it.”
But this is about the same reasoning pattern as “About half the medieval Europeans who I’ve heard of are kings; therefore I estimate medieval Europe had about one king for every two people.”
My guess is that most atheists, in the sense of people who don’t believe in God, rarely talk or think about it. But they don’t get much attention, and if they do, it’s not as atheists. “Famous atheists” brings up Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens – not Lance Armstrong and Maurice Sendak. If there wasn’t a selection bias in terms of whose atheism gets noticed more, we would end up with the stereotype that atheists ride bikes and draw awesome pictures of cartoon monsters.
I wonder just how far this bias goes in creating stereotypes. It seems most likely to be a factor when there’s a group that’s hard to identify except when it engages in activities stereotypically associated with that group, and which might be geographically/socially sorted well enough that members of other groups rarely come in contact with them naturally.
Anti-Muslim stereotypes might come from such a source. If people live in an area without Muslims – or if Muslims tend to be segregated from non-Muslims – then someone might only hear about them when they’re fulfilling some kind of negative Muslim stereotype. I actually think the same is true of Christians – if someone lives in a very secular area, most of the Christianity they hear about could be some kind of very extreme televangelist.
And although this is a stretch, the same might apply to groups that are easily identifiable if people don’t think of the concrete examples they know qua group membership. Imagine you interact with your friend Juan – because Juan is great – and your friend Pedro – because he’s great too – and then you hear a story about Mexicans illegally crossing the border, and that activates your “Mexican” category much more than Juan and Pedro do, because they’re just ordinary guys.
And okay, that’s just wild speculation. I’m pretty convinced about the atheism one, though.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The "none" trend is, like several other social views, corresponding generally to age. 32% of Millennials self identify as having no religious affiliation.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
It's like Sunday night on AMC!
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm sure there is undoubtedly some skewing of the prison stats from people trying to find god on the inside, but does anyone believe it's skewed THAT much? I mean, we're talking about 0.07 percent here. Even if that's skewed by 500% it's still an absurdly small number.
Regardless, the three states with the lowest percentage of violent crime per capita (Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire) are the three states that least identify themselves as being religious.
Meanwhile, the state with the highest percentage of violent crime per capita (Tennessee) is the 5th most religious.
Clearly, religion does not in any way preclude people from crime nor does atheism make it acceptable. While religion introduces morals in some ways, it also tells people that they can get salvation for any horrible deed by asking forgiveness afterwards, gives them a really good excuse to do whatever they want (god gave me a sign, I swear!) and introduces an exemplary being (god) who used no shortage of violent and immoral means (mass murder not the least amongst them) to justify his ends throughout history.
Regardless, the three states with the lowest percentage of violent crime per capita (Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire) are the three states that least identify themselves as being religious.
Meanwhile, the state with the highest percentage of violent crime per capita (Tennessee) is the 5th most religious.
Clearly, religion does not in any way preclude people from crime nor does atheism make it acceptable. While religion introduces morals in some ways, it also tells people that they can get salvation for any horrible deed by asking forgiveness afterwards, gives them a really good excuse to do whatever they want (god gave me a sign, I swear!) and introduces an exemplary being (god) who used no shortage of violent and immoral means (mass murder not the least amongst them) to justify his ends throughout history.
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The Commish
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
I know. I read that and was going to say something, but the entire viewpoint is so off I didnt want to get into trying to correct it. People can think what they want.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Uh, this one...?
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
"“For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
“Therefore this is what the Lord says, ‘If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me.’”
The Commish
Footballguy
These are all verses pointing to God's grace and willingness to forgive. Now you have to get to the bold above and you have dozens of verses that you must ignore to get there. You'd in essence be in the same boat as those who use the Bible as a reason for treating homosexuals poorly.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
