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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (2 Viewers)

cockroach said:
Kathleen Zellner on Twitter: "We've confirmed that it was replaced with the wrong-sized battery for the RAV4—the same size battery that is used in Crown Victorias" - Police cars are traditionally and almost ALWAYS Crown Victorias.
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I know the doc is slanted, and there are compelling arguments on both sides, but 1) Kathleen certainly does a fantastic job building a reasonable doubt case, and 2) for me, overall, Occam's Razor seems to far better fit her side's theories and evidentiary considerations of what happened than the prosecution's. 

 
doowain said:
Link?

Bad source because the surfaces are hard to pull from? Or because the large number of prints makes it hard to distinguish unique prints?

Was the steering wheel (or anywhere else inside the car) tested for Steven's sweat DNA?
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https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9vmorg/were_forensic_scientists_ask_us_about/

This is a Reddit AMA from a couple fingerprint guys.  

"The number of prints on the RAV4 fall very much into the range that we typically see. Fingerprints on interior surfaces of vehicles are quite uncommon (with a couple of exceptions like the windows and mirrors)."

"We routinely find limited latent prints in vehicles because the surfaces are often not that conducive to latent prints. Windows and mirrors are the best surfaces. Plus the vehicle was outside for a number of days (I think in the rain too) so exterior prints are reduced likelihood to recover (not impossible, but just it's one more factor against finding viable prints).

On that note too: there is a difference between finding latent prints on a surface and finding IDENTIFIABLE latent prints on a surface. Quite often we find smudges, smears, fragments, and other bits of prints, but they are not all identifiable. Identifiable latent prints are very small subset of all latent prints left behind. There may well have been plenty of latent print in and outside the vehicle, but not identifiable."

They also have a podcast where they go into various aspects of the Avery case and some of the other notable 'true crime' cases.  

https://soundcloud.com/double-loop-podcast

 
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https://fox6now.com/2018/11/15/ongoing-investigation-steven-averys-attorney-expected-to-share-new-information/

MANITOWOC — Kathleen Zellner, Steven Avery’s attorney, released on Thursday, Nov. 15 what she called new information in the case that was not brought up in “Making a Murderer.”

Zellner blasted off a series of tweets starting a 12:30 p.m. on Thursday, Nov. 15. They include the following text:

On 10/31/05, Scott Tadych visited Bobby at the Avery salvage yard (ASY) around noon.

After Teresa (TH) called the Dassey landline for directions, our suspect contacted her back with the Dassey address.

Teresa arrived at the ASY around 2:30–2:31 p.m. on 10/31/05. Only Bobby and Steven saw her. After completing her photo assignment, she left & turned West on Hwy 147 around 2:38 p.m. Our suspect followed her. Steven was in his trailer.

Our suspect gets TH to pull over. She opened her car’s rear cargo door to retrieve her camera, was knocked to the ground and struck with an object.

TH was put in the rear cargo area of the RAV4 and driven back to ASY.

TH’s RAV4 was spotted leaving the ASY with an unknown driver at 3:45 p.m.

RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05.

3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone.

Recent investigation shows the RAV4 battery died, so it was replaced in order to move the RAV4 to the ASY.

TH’s body was burned in a burn barrel. Dassey burn barrel had human bones.

60% of bones and 31 teeth missing

A witness smelled horrible odor of something burning in Manitowoc County gravel pit the evening of 10/31/05.

The Dassey garage was never luminoled or DNA tested. Bobby hung a deer in the Dassey garage on 11/4/05.

Sikikey note—Body burned at smelter 11/4/05, 3 a.m. Tadych worked the night shift at a smelter facility. His nickname: Skinny.

TH’s electronics were not burned in Steven’s burn barrel; they were burned in Dassey burn barrel.

Suspect knew Steven’s finger re-bled on 11/3/05 because he observed it.

Suspect had access to Steven’s trailer to remove blood from the sink.

Only our suspect knew the blood in the sink was Steven’s and not TH’s (this rules out the police).

Suspect planted blood in RAV4, bones in Steven’s burn pit, and TH’s electronics in Steven’s burn barrel.

In conclusion, the killer is the person who had the access and opportunity to plant Steven Avery’s fresh blood in Teresa Halbach’s car.

The release of this information comes less than a month after the release of the sequel to the popular “Making a Murderer” documentary series.

Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey were sentenced to life in prison for the 2005 slaying of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach. Avery insists police framed him.

Dassey was 16 years old when he confessed to Wisconsin authorities that he had joined his uncle in raping and murdering photographer Teresa Halbach before burning her body in a bonfire. Dassey’s attorneys, however, say he’s borderline intellectually disabled and was manipulated by experienced police officers into accepting their story of how Halbach’s murder happened.
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Stompin' Tom Connors said:
I know the doc is slanted, and there are compelling arguments on both sides, but 1) Kathleen certainly does a fantastic job building a reasonable doubt case, and 2) for me, overall, Occam's Razor seems to far better fit her side's theories and evidentiary considerations of what happened than the prosecution's.
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Wut?

Zellner's original filing had Ryan doing pretty much all of it, the killing, the burning, the blood stealing, the blood planting, the car planting.  Problem was he had an alibi for when the blood was supposedly stolen.  So she throws Bobby in because she needs someone who could have stolen the blood (the blood stealing/planting story is completely  :wall: from and Occam's razor perspective but that's another topic).  But Bobby is alibied by Scott, so she just throws Scott on the pile too.  But what to do with Ryan?  Can't just forget about him at this point, so she has him planting the car at the behest of law enforcement.  (Why law enforcement thought it necessary to enlist one of Theresa's best friends in their frame-up is anyone's guess?) It's a silly hodge-podge of assumptions and gross leaps of logic for which there is absolutely no proof.  Deciding that this is more likely than Steven killing her with a little help from Brendan on the half-assed cleanup, like all the evidence indicates, is the complete opposite of Occam's Razor

 
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cockroach said:
Kathleen Zellner on Twitter: "We've confirmed that it was replaced with the wrong-sized battery for the RAV4—the same size battery that is used in Crown Victorias" - Police cars are traditionally and almost ALWAYS Crown Victorias.
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I'm curious what else she has, but this doesn't move the needle much for me.  Just because a battery can go in a Crown Vic doesn't mean it only goes in a Crown Vic.  Conversely, just because a battery isn't meant for a RAV4 doesn't mean that it can't go in a RAV4.  

 
I'll sit back and watch as everyone who ever said the cops framed Avery will now point the finger at Zellner's new suspect.

I am not clear if that is Tadych or Bobby.

 
shuke said:
I'll sit back and watch as everyone who ever said the cops framed Avery will now point the finger at Zellner's new suspect.

I am not clear if that is Tadych or Bobby.
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I only posted the article because I thought it was relevant. That was actually my first post in this thread. :shrug:

I think she's angling at Bobby. 

 
strykerpks said:
https://fox6now.com/2018/11/15/ongoing-investigation-steven-averys-attorney-expected-to-share-new-information/

RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05.

3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone.
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Can someone help me with this one? So the RAV4 was ditched by an old dam and sat there for 4 days? 3 witnesses saw it sitting there for 4 days? And yet, this story was all over the news when it happened, along with a description of the missing vehicle. Do none of them get the news that they were aware of any possible connection that this might be the same vehicle that the police were looking for? Or is this selective memory clouded by time?

 
parrot said:
Wut?

Zellner's original filing had Ryan doing pretty much all of it, the killing, the burning, the blood stealing, the blood planting, the car planting.  Problem was he had an alibi for when the blood was supposedly stolen.  So she throws Bobby in because she needs someone who could have stolen the blood (the blood stealing/planting story is completely  :wall: from and Occam's razor perspective but that's another topic).  But Bobby is alibied by Scott, so she just throws Scott on the pile too.  But what to do with Ryan?  Can't just forget about him at this point, so she has him planting the car at the behest of law enforcement.  (Why law enforcement thought it necessary to enlist one of Theresa's best friends in their frame-up is anyone's guess?) It's a silly hodge-podge of assumptions and gross leaps of logic for which there is absolutely no proof.  Deciding that this is more likely than Steven killing her with a little help from Brendan on the half-assed cleanup, like all the evidence indicates, is the complete opposite of Occam's Razor
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So the ex-boyfriend, the crooked cops, the evil DA, the cousin and the uncle were ALL involved in the murder. Not sure why you don't see this as reasonable doubt.

It's called throw enough "stuff" at the wall and hope something sticks.

I'll give Zellner this though. She's clever in using social media to build her case. She posts it out there and asks for questions. She's testing what is going to stick to the wall and what's not. And how to get it to stick to the wall better.

 
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KingPrawn said:
Can someone help me with this one? So the RAV4 was ditched by an old dam and sat there for 4 days? 3 witnesses saw it sitting there for 4 days? And yet, this story was all over the news when it happened, along with a description of the missing vehicle. Do none of them get the news that they were aware of any possible connection that this might be the same vehicle that the police were looking for? Or is this selective memory clouded by time?
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I'd be happy to help on this one. The ditched RAV4 on the side of the road by the old damn was checked. It was the wrong color and had rear windows that were blown out. Zellner and MaM2 spent a pretty good amount of time trying to insinuate it could have been Teresa's. They chose to leave out the facts I just stated.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I'd be happy to help on this one. The ditched RAV4 on the side of the road by the old damn was checked. It was the wrong color and had rear windows that were blown out. Zellner and MaM2 spent a pretty good amount of time trying to insinuate it could have been Teresa's. They chose to leave out the facts I just stated.
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So they knew it wasn't a match and leave that out? And then zellner doubles down with it in her tweet? How's that make sense? Unless both zellner and MaM2 are intentionally trying to be misleading. Do I have that right or am I missing another angle?

 
KingPrawn said:
So they knew it wasn't a match and leave that out? And then zellner doubles down with it in her tweet? How's that make sense? Unless both zellner and MaM2 are intentionally trying to be misleading. Do I have that right or am I missing another angle?
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Yes, precisely. It's reached the point where its all PR at this point for Zellner.

 
If the tweet about the Crown Victoria batteries wasn't enough for people to stop listening to Zellner, than nothing will. She was showing off some 1st grade level logic with that one. She's a very intelligent woman. Why would an intelligent woman throw such faulty logic out there like that? Because she knows it will get eaten right up. She also knows such logic goes nowhere with the courts and wouldn't even try it there. But the public is a different matter...

 
KingPrawn said:
So if this isn't true how much of the other stuff is total BS? I mean, does she have anything worthwhile?
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She's definitely tried. No shortage of different avenues pursued. Nothing that sniffed reasonable doubt or basis for re-trial in court. At this point she's left making shallow arguments to win in the court of public opinion. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
If the tweet about the Crown Victoria batteries wasn't enough for people to stop listening to Zellner, than nothing will. She was showing off some 1st grade level logic with that one. She's a very intelligent woman. Why would an intelligent woman throw such faulty logic out there like that? Because she knows it will get eaten right up. She also knows such logic goes nowhere with the courts and wouldn't even try it there. But the public is a different matter...
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 That was pretty much my take but thought I was missing something because it seems so obvious. Does she have some sort of financial arrangement with MaM to keep this going?

 
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And to be fair to Zellner, many of her theories and chases at doubt were born from legitimate attempts. They just went nowhere. The roadside RAV4 is a good example. She hears of it and like anyone thinks "Hey, that might have been Teresa's!". They throw those moments into the doc. It's a formula repeated over and over to make it seem like there are mountains of anecdotal  instances to create all this doubt. What they don't show are the results of Zellner's investigation into these things. They leave it out when she hits the dead end. They simply move on to the next wild theory.

 
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KingPrawn said:
 That was pretty much my take but thought I was missing something because it seems so obvious. Does she have some sort of financial arrangement with MaM to keep this going?
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Don't know but it wouldn't surprise me. It could be as simple as keeping her name in the public. There's a pride factor I'm sure as well given the proclamations she made in the doc. Hard to give up and admit wrong.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
And to be fair to Zellner, many of her theories and chases at doubt were born from legitimate attempts. They just went nowhere. The roadside RAV4 is a good example. She hears of it and like anyone thinks "Hey, that might have been Teresa's!". They throw those moments into the doc. It's a formula repeated over and over to make it seem like there are mountains of anecdotal  instances to create all this doubt. What they don't show are the results of Zellner's investigation into these things. They leave it out when she hits the dead end. They simply move on to the next wild theory.
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But she doubles down on just about everyone of them just the other day, despite already knowing the dead end result. Either she has to have a $ incentive to keep the ratings going. Or she realizes that her stellar reputation of getting convictions overturned is damaged. She needs to sew doubt as a PR move to help her rep. She must know at this point she has no chance.

 
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KingPrawn said:
But she doubles down on just about everyone of them just the other day, despite already knowing the dead end result. Either she has to have a $ incentive to keep the ratings going. Or she realizes that her stellar reputation of getting convictions overturned is damaged. She needs to sew doubt as a PR move to help her rep. She must know at this point she has no chance.
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I think that assessment is spot on.

 
KingPrawn said:
But there's some pretty smart cookies in this thread that aren't convinced. There must be more to it? Or . . . . .
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I don't think there are many people who think he's 100% innocent.  If I had to put odds on it i'd say 75% guilty.  Still enough doubt where i wouldn't put a dude in prison for life.  Even 5% doubt is enough for me to find someone not guilty in court.  

 
I don't have an opinion other than it's clear to me that Kratz is a smarmy weasel.  A couple of the other cops are more than suspect.  I also believe that the slow kid was coerced in the most obvious way possible.  Anybody that doesn't believe innocent people don't confess needs to watch the netflix show - Confession Tapes.  I AM NOT SAYING THE KID DIDN'T DO IT - I am saying much stranger things have happened.  Poor guy is slower than slow - he just wanted the hell out of there and wanted to tell them whatever he thought they wanted to hear.  

Also, I think there are too many people here underestimating Ms. Zellner.  If I ever got in trouble I want her representing me.  

 
ILUVBEER99 said:
I don't think there are many people who think he's 100% innocent.  If I had to put odds on it i'd say 75% guilty.  Still enough doubt where i wouldn't put a dude in prison for life.  Even 5% doubt is enough for me to find someone not guilty in court.  
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Not trying to start a fight but posts like this make zero sense to me....

”I don’t think there are many people that think he is 100% innocent”....what the  hell does that really mean...?....so many people (whatever amount that is)...think he is at least 1% involved....so how exactly are you “only” 1% involved.....either you are involved for you are not....?

”If I had to put odds, I’d say 75% guilty”...wtf....?....either you are 100% guilty or 0% guilty....this seems like a late in the game fence riding cop out for all the MAM suckers who initially fell for the hook line and sinker that the show threw out there and are now trying to save face by kinda saying “yeah I realize now he probably did it, but I don’t want to come out and admit I was wrong about it”....

What exactly does 5% doubt mean....what is 6%....what is 10% .....what is 17% ....either there is reasonable doubt as defined by law or not....and so far the courts as high as they have gone do not think there is.....

at what % of doubt is enough for you to find someone guilty?.....I don’t even know what that means..4%....3%...2%....1%....

Zellner going down swinging in desperation mode....she’d be better off just throwing in the towel and admitting this is one she can’t win....at this point she will never admit she thinks he did it...(even though she puffed out her chest and said she would be able to if she did)...I think she knows he did, but as she rides off into the sunset she will keep throwing out hail mary’s To try and save her reputation...

 
Stinkin Ref said:
Not trying to start a fight but posts like this make zero sense to me....

”I don’t think there are many people that think he is 100% innocent”....what the  hell does that really mean...?....so many people (whatever amount that is)...think he is at least 1% involved....so how exactly are you “only” 1% involved.....either you are involved for you are not....?

”If I had to put odds, I’d say 75% guilty”...wtf....?....either you are 100% guilty or 0% guilty....this seems like a late in the game fence riding cop out for all the MAM suckers who initially fell for the hook line and sinker that the show threw out there and are now trying to save face by kinda saying “yeah I realize now he probably did it, but I don’t want to come out and admit I was wrong about it”....

What exactly does 5% doubt mean....what is 6%....what is 10% .....what is 17% ....either there is reasonable doubt as defined by law or not....and so far the courts as high as they have gone do not think there is.....

at what % of doubt is enough for you to find someone guilty?.....I don’t even know what that means..4%....3%...2%....1%....

Zellner going down swinging in desperation mode....she’d be better off just throwing in the towel and admitting this is one she can’t win....at this point she will never admit she thinks he did it...(even though she puffed out her chest and said she would be able to if she did)...I think she knows he did, but as she rides off into the sunset she will keep throwing out hail mary’s To try and save her reputation...
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You obviously don't understand odds or reasonable doubt.  

If someone says they are 100% sure on this case either way they are truly a moron.

 
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Stinkin Ref said:
ILUVBEER99 said:
I don't think there are many people who think he's 100% innocent.  If I had to put odds on it i'd say 75% guilty.  Still enough doubt where i wouldn't put a dude in prison for life.  Even 5% doubt is enough for me to find someone not guilty in court.  
Click to expand...


Not trying to start a fight but posts like this make zero sense to me....

”I don’t think there are many people that think he is 100% innocent”....what the  hell does that really mean...?....so many people (whatever amount that is)...think he is at least 1% involved....so how exactly are you “only” 1% involved.....either you are involved for you are not....?

”If I had to put odds, I’d say 75% guilty”...wtf....?....either you are 100% guilty or 0% guilty....this seems like a late in the game fence riding cop out for all the MAM suckers who initially fell for the hook line and sinker that the show threw out there and are now trying to save face by kinda saying “yeah I realize now he probably did it, but I don’t want to come out and admit I was wrong about it”....

What exactly does 5% doubt mean....what is 6%....what is 10% .....what is 17% ....either there is reasonable doubt as defined by law or not....and so far the courts as high as they have gone do not think there is.....

at what % of doubt is enough for you to find someone guilty?.....I don’t even know what that means..4%....3%...2%....1%....

Zellner going down swinging in desperation mode....she’d be better off just throwing in the towel and admitting this is one she can’t win....at this point she will never admit she thinks he did it...(even though she puffed out her chest and said she would be able to if she did)...I think she knows he did, but as she rides off into the sunset she will keep throwing out hail mary’s To try and save her reputation...
Click to expand...
I think your are misunderstanding what was intended by the poster. Not your fault given how questionable the statement was formatted. Perhaps it would make more sense to you if it read:

I don't think there are many people who 100% think he's innocent.  If I had to put odds on it i'd say there is a 75% chance he's guilty.  Still enough doubt where i wouldn't put a dude in prison for life.  Even a 95% chance he is guilty is not enough for me to find someone guilty or murder in court.  
Click to expand...

 
Stinkin Ref said:
Not trying to start a fight but posts like this make zero sense to me....

”I don’t think there are many people that think he is 100% innocent”....what the  hell does that really mean...?....so many people (whatever amount that is)...think he is at least 1% involved....so how exactly are you “only” 1% involved.....either you are involved for you are not....?

”If I had to put odds, I’d say 75% guilty”...wtf....?....either you are 100% guilty or 0% guilty....this seems like a late in the game fence riding cop out for all the MAM suckers who initially fell for the hook line and sinker that the show threw out there and are now trying to save face by kinda saying “yeah I realize now he probably did it, but I don’t want to come out and admit I was wrong about it”....

What exactly does 5% doubt mean....what is 6%....what is 10% .....what is 17% ....either there is reasonable doubt as defined by law or not....and so far the courts as high as they have gone do not think there is.....

at what % of doubt is enough for you to find someone guilty?.....I don’t even know what that means..4%....3%...2%....1%....

Zellner going down swinging in desperation mode....she’d be better off just throwing in the towel and admitting this is one she can’t win....at this point she will never admit she thinks he did it...(even though she puffed out her chest and said she would be able to if she did)...I think she knows he did, but as she rides off into the sunset she will keep throwing out hail mary’s To try and save her reputation...
Click to expand...
It's easy really. Kinda like being 75% pregnant

 
Binky The Doormat said:
Also, I think there are too many people here underestimating Ms. Zellner.  If I ever got in trouble I want her representing me.  
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I don't see a single person here underestimating Zellner. We all know she's one of the best (if not THE best) in the business at getting convictions reversed. If anything, we're acknowledging how skilled she is as a reason to illustrate how guilty Avery is. The straws she's grasping at now show how little she has to go off of with this one. If Avery didn't do it, this is the woman who would have shown it by now.

 
https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw/status/1074452432070041600

Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw

Tomorrow we will announce a new, important development in the Avery case about 2:30 pm CT. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @michellemalkin @lifeafterten @BBCWorld @TheTelegraph__ @guardian @Newsweek @TheStar_news @johnferak #MakingAMurderer2 #TruthWins #WreckingCrew

3:53 PM - 16 Dec 2018

I feel like I've heard this before, but :popcorn:

 
Dickies said:
https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw/status/1074452432070041600

Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw

Tomorrow we will announce a new, important development in the Avery case about 2:30 pm CT. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @michellemalkin @lifeafterten @BBCWorld @TheTelegraph__ @guardian @Newsweek @TheStar_news @johnferak #MakingAMurderer2 #TruthWins #WreckingCrew

3:53 PM - 16 Dec 2018

I feel like I've heard this before, but :popcorn:
Click to expand...
:coffee:  

 
https://twitter.com/JButing/status/1074776023743586305

KZ’s Dec 20 ct app brief is postponed. She filed ct app motion today to remand to allow newly devised rapid DNA test of bones in gravel pit that KK claimed weren’t human. KZ believes they are TH & would refute State’s theory she was killed & burned in SA burn pit. #askZellner
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She thinks if the tests show that they are indeed TH's bones, that that by itself should warrant a new trial. 

 
I enjoyed season 2 of MAM.  It was funny how the first half focused a lot on Brendan and his appeals and showed his Mom and Scott on the phone with Brendan quite a bit.  When Zellner then accuses Scott and Bobby as the main suspects it got very interesting. 

I still don't believe Steven killed Theresa, although I wouldn't be shocked if he did.  One thing is very clear, it didn't happen the way the proscecution claimed.

 
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