Chaka
Footballguy
I just to clarify this. You are saying that it is okay to gang rape Colburn's wife because of his actions?
That's what you're okay with?
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
That's what you're okay with?
mr. furley
Footballguy
feels like an IP bannable comment, imo
Chaka
Footballguy
Honestly, I think we should encourage them to speak up. I will never be able to understand people of a different mindset if I don't engage with them.
Sending them scurrying to the fringes only insulates them further and likely makes them more intractable.
We've gone down that path for awhile, how do you think it's working out?
I think @bucksoh has probably not considered his particular stance with any depth and would probably think differently if his wife was held accountable for any and all of his misdeeds.
But I absolutely want to understand why he feels that way. Hell maybe I'm the one who's missing something. I'm not, at least not about this, but I still want to know.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Blocked that person long ago. I wish everyone else would - or better, he just get nuked - so I don't still have to read his garbage in quoted posts.
Chaka
Footballguy
I thought about reaching out to JB but I am not sure that helps. It will likely only harden his stance. He already seems to believe that anyone who suggests he is wrong is a "snowflake" of some sort. Maybe if he realizes we (I) am not he will take a little more time to consider his own opinions and maybe the opinions of others l as well.
Either way there is only one path to that option and it's not an IP ban.
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mr. furley
Footballguy
personally, i'd rather never hear from them
i can talk with people on topics where we disagree and have no problem doing so but virulent racists and hate-mongers? that's gonna be a hard pass for me. mostly because i will resort to violence.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Colburn is guilty as hell. He ruined not only Averys life but also the rape victim. And if the rapist raped anymore other women them too. If you people can't comprehend this! That is on you. If someone raped him and his wife I would feel nothing for them cause they deserved it imo. And if I broke the law and ruined many lives and my wife stuck by me even though I would be a monster then she would get what is coming to her too! But me and my wife isn't that stupid! And Lol to the idiots bringing up race and hate mongering and ### kickings if there should be anyone banned it should be these fools for race baiting and hate mongering of which I've never demonstrated any of this in all my postings.Chaka said:
bucksoh
Footballguy
Have to bump this just because of the vile garbage you spew. How is this guy not banned?
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
Bucksoh - I have never seen UH be anything but very cool ...what are you talking about?
bucksoh
Footballguy
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KingPrawn
Footballguy
bucksoh
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
I am sincere when I say that I want to engage people with differing perspectives from me. However after even this small exchange it is difficult to disagree with all of you who suggested that @bucksoh was merely trying to get a rise out of people with his responses. @Joe Bryant and @FBG Moderator would you please have a conversation with @bucksoh? I mean it sincerely when I say that I wouldn't be surprised if he was a Russian propagandist or Alex Jones follower intentionally attempting to foment discord.
Please report a few of the posts you see that over the line. Way faster for the mods to see specifically what you mean. Thanks.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Scroll up, Joe. I've blocked him, so I can only see the quoted posts towards the top of this page.
I called his posts garbage about halfway down the page. If that's over the line, so be it and I understand if you feel the need to do something about my comment. I'll stand by what I said, though.
I called his posts garbage about halfway down the page. If that's over the line, so be it and I understand if you feel the need to do something about my comment. I'll stand by what I said, though.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Whoa this.is crazy. I can see people in this thread don't understand there should be consequences for their actions. Colburn is guilty which means his wife could have came forward to turn him in but she never did. Which makes her an accomplance. It's sad as a society where people are not held responsible for there actions. Chaka don't have anything against you but spewing garbage like your and uh posts you should be banned. I never try to get a rise out of people, I merely state my opinion. I have never said anything about raping innocent women. That's crazy i don't even post in poltical forums because both sides are part of the problem. You clearly are a radical left.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Actually you also said I needed nuked, which last time I checked isn't a very nice thing to say. Which says a lot about your character. That is why you should be banned. But keep making stuff up to justify your posts.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
FWIW, I think he was simply and facetiously using @bucksoh's own verbiage to point out how needlessly (and IMO disturbingly) over the top these "opinions" are.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Speaking of Colborn....
bucksoh
Footballguy
Once again I never said to threaten to rape or kill his wife or kids. I just wouldn't feel bad for the wife. I would for the kids because even as horrible monsters those two are the children are innocent. This is my last post in this riduculus thread.
mr. furley
Footballguy
lolSpeaking of Colborn....
if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.
only an idiot goes to her office and tries to re-create anything. dumb.
she loves to try and stir up twitter with her fishing. it's a shame. she might have legitimate evidence & a real case but she throws so much feces at the wall, it's hard to take her seriously.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I actually agree. What I think she has done the best in terms of those handling the defendants' case so far is pressing on the myriad vectors of "beyond a reasonable doubt" that exist.
But I'm not a fan of this "Try by Tweet" approach to the law. And it may actually undermine credibility over time.
Bring evidence and press ahead to have the prosecution prove burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt in court -- the documentary itself is more than enough to serve as a trial of public opinion.
Chaka
Footballguy
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
I'm somewhat confused. I thought I saw a previous tweet of hers, or maybe it was an article, where she took the position that her work actually cleared the police of planting evidence. I'll have to look to find it because this challenge obviously goes directly against that previous claim.Nathan R. Jessep said:Speaking of Colborn....
KingPrawn
Footballguy
mr. furley
Footballguy
wait.... wat?
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Zellner-says-gravel-pit-bones-were-given-to-Halbachs-family-potential-evidence-destroyed-504827311.html
MANITOWOC, Wis. (WBAY) - Steven Avery's defense attorney says evidence that could exonerate her client in Theresa Halbach's 2005 murder was probably destroyed when investigators handed over bones from the Manitowoc County gravel pit to Halbach's family in 2011.
In the motion, Zellner says last month, a third party gave her a copy of a police report which says investigators gave gravel pit bones to a funeral home to be given to Halbach's family in September, 2011. It was a month after a circuit court ruling denying Avery's 2009 appeal was upheld by an appellate court in August, 2011.
In that police report, dated September 20, 2011, Calumet County investigators and attorneys determined what bones held as evidence could be returned to the Halbach family. Those included human bones and teeth that were collected from a burn pit on Steven Avery's property and five which Zellner says were collected from the gravel pit: Two of these are identified in the police report as "suspected human bone fragments," one as "bone fragments," and two as "possible bone fragments."
The prosecution argued tests on the gravel pit bones were inconclusive whether they were human or animal.
"The State by its actions has implicitly admitted that the bones are not only human, but that they belong to Mis. Halbach. The State cannot credibly argue that it returned animal bones to the Halbach family for burial or cremation," Zellner wrote.
Zellner plans to test the gravel pit bones with modern Rapid DNA technology. She believes new tests would prove those are Halbach's bones -- undermining the prosecution's case that Avery killed Theresa Halbach and destroyed her remains in a burn pit on his property, and proof, she says, that Halbach's bones in Avery's burn pit were planted.
Zellner says Avery doesn't know whether the gravel pit bones were buried or cremated.
She argues investigators broke the law by failing to preserve evidence and failing to notify Avery's attorneys of their intent to do so, violating his right to due process.
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Zellner-says-gravel-pit-bones-were-given-to-Halbachs-family-potential-evidence-destroyed-504827311.html
MANITOWOC, Wis. (WBAY) - Steven Avery's defense attorney says evidence that could exonerate her client in Theresa Halbach's 2005 murder was probably destroyed when investigators handed over bones from the Manitowoc County gravel pit to Halbach's family in 2011.
In the motion, Zellner says last month, a third party gave her a copy of a police report which says investigators gave gravel pit bones to a funeral home to be given to Halbach's family in September, 2011. It was a month after a circuit court ruling denying Avery's 2009 appeal was upheld by an appellate court in August, 2011.
In that police report, dated September 20, 2011, Calumet County investigators and attorneys determined what bones held as evidence could be returned to the Halbach family. Those included human bones and teeth that were collected from a burn pit on Steven Avery's property and five which Zellner says were collected from the gravel pit: Two of these are identified in the police report as "suspected human bone fragments," one as "bone fragments," and two as "possible bone fragments."
The prosecution argued tests on the gravel pit bones were inconclusive whether they were human or animal.
"The State by its actions has implicitly admitted that the bones are not only human, but that they belong to Mis. Halbach. The State cannot credibly argue that it returned animal bones to the Halbach family for burial or cremation," Zellner wrote.
Zellner plans to test the gravel pit bones with modern Rapid DNA technology. She believes new tests would prove those are Halbach's bones -- undermining the prosecution's case that Avery killed Theresa Halbach and destroyed her remains in a burn pit on his property, and proof, she says, that Halbach's bones in Avery's burn pit were planted.
Zellner says Avery doesn't know whether the gravel pit bones were buried or cremated.
She argues investigators broke the law by failing to preserve evidence and failing to notify Avery's attorneys of their intent to do so, violating his right to due process.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
mr. furley
Footballguy
after re-reading that sentence a dozen times... she's hoping to find someone else's DNA on the bones? the person who allegedly planted them in Avery's burn put? is that what it's trying to say?
Moonlight
Footballguy
She believes that TH was killed at the gravel pit and her body was burned there. If the bones found at the quarry were determined by DNA testing to be TH's, it would support the defense theory that some of the bones were moved to the Avery property to frame Avery and would undermine the prosecution's theory of what happened to TH.
parrot
Footballguy
Does it really though? Or is it just as possible that Steven moved those bones for some reason?
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
The states argument is TH never left the property, and Avery burned her up in the raging fire he had in the backyard. If a portion of her remains and evidence of her burning were found elsewhere, that puts a hole in the state's theory.
LAUNCH
Footballguy
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a26513629/kathleen-zellner-latest-theory-making-a-murderer/
Making a Murderer included hours of footage documenting the murder of Teresa Halbach, the legal proceedings surrounding the case and the man who was ultimately convicted of the crime.
Season one of the Netflix docu-series incorporated recordings from Steven Avery's 2007 trial, weaving in the efforts of his original defence team Dean Strang and Jerry Buting. His nephew Brendan Dassey, who implicated himself by confession, also featured.
Fast-forward eleven years, in terms of the case timeline, and season two introduced Avery's new attorney Kathleen Zellner (who has been working on his appeal since 2016). Specialising in wrongful convictions, she believes wholeheartedly in her clients' innocence and is currently working towards his appeal.
Keen to share updates with Making a Murderer fans, Zellner has revealed her latest theory which might just call into question – or, depending on your point of view, provide an answer – to one of the biggest sticking points from the series.
It concerns the bones found in the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit. You may recall that this was mentioned ever-so-briefly in Avery's trial, and featured in Part 1 of the true crime series. Suspected human 'pelvic bone' fragments were discovered in the quarry, away from Avery's property, in a consistent condition to those found in the Avery yard.
Zellner recently made moves to have testing done on this piece of evidence, to establish once and for all if they were in fact human, but her motion was denied by the Wisconsin Court of Appeals in early 2019.
If the fragments were identified to be human and belonging to Halbach, it could refute the State's theory that she was killed and burned in Steven Avery's burn pit.
Zellner now believes that the Attorney General’s Office has been attempting to "deceive" her and her client, by hiding the whereabouts of this forensic evidence.
According to a letter submitted by Zellner to the Wisconsin Court of Appeals on February 13, "never-before disclosed ledger sheets" have come to light that indicate the bones in question were returned to the Halbach family. What's more, according to this document, the pelvic bone was categorised as "human" – although it remains unclear whether it has been confirmed to have belonged to Halbach.
The letter also alleges that Assistant Attorney General Thomas Fallon "consistently represented to undersigned counsel for the last three years that the State was in possession of the pelvic bone."
In response to these allegations, a spokesperson for the Attorney General’s Office told Rolling Stonethat they "cannot comment on ongoing litigation."
According to multiple sources, Wisconsin law requires "any biological material" and "physical evidence" be preserved until the convicted defendant has been discharged from prison. Viewers of the Netflix show will be aware that Steven Avery is currently serving a life sentence.
On February 18, Kathleen Zellner shared an update on Twitter. "The State has confirmed with us that they did in fact give 'many bones' back to TH’s family," she wrote. "They have no proof they gave notice to SA or his attorneys = violation state law & due process."
So, what does this all mean for Avery?
In a statement to Newsweek, Zellner explained: "This admission proves these bone fragments were returned to the family and it is undisputed there was no notice given to Steven Avery or his attorneys and that violates Wisconsin law."
Zellner, who is currently waiting on a response to her motion, wants to make clear that the victim's family should in no way take any blame for any issues in the case.
"The Halbach family are victims of this grave miscarriage of justice," she said. "And they should not be blamed for any aspect of this case."
Making a Murderer included hours of footage documenting the murder of Teresa Halbach, the legal proceedings surrounding the case and the man who was ultimately convicted of the crime.
Season one of the Netflix docu-series incorporated recordings from Steven Avery's 2007 trial, weaving in the efforts of his original defence team Dean Strang and Jerry Buting. His nephew Brendan Dassey, who implicated himself by confession, also featured.
Fast-forward eleven years, in terms of the case timeline, and season two introduced Avery's new attorney Kathleen Zellner (who has been working on his appeal since 2016). Specialising in wrongful convictions, she believes wholeheartedly in her clients' innocence and is currently working towards his appeal.
Keen to share updates with Making a Murderer fans, Zellner has revealed her latest theory which might just call into question – or, depending on your point of view, provide an answer – to one of the biggest sticking points from the series.
It concerns the bones found in the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit. You may recall that this was mentioned ever-so-briefly in Avery's trial, and featured in Part 1 of the true crime series. Suspected human 'pelvic bone' fragments were discovered in the quarry, away from Avery's property, in a consistent condition to those found in the Avery yard.
Zellner recently made moves to have testing done on this piece of evidence, to establish once and for all if they were in fact human, but her motion was denied by the Wisconsin Court of Appeals in early 2019.
If the fragments were identified to be human and belonging to Halbach, it could refute the State's theory that she was killed and burned in Steven Avery's burn pit.
Zellner now believes that the Attorney General’s Office has been attempting to "deceive" her and her client, by hiding the whereabouts of this forensic evidence.
According to a letter submitted by Zellner to the Wisconsin Court of Appeals on February 13, "never-before disclosed ledger sheets" have come to light that indicate the bones in question were returned to the Halbach family. What's more, according to this document, the pelvic bone was categorised as "human" – although it remains unclear whether it has been confirmed to have belonged to Halbach.
The letter also alleges that Assistant Attorney General Thomas Fallon "consistently represented to undersigned counsel for the last three years that the State was in possession of the pelvic bone."
In response to these allegations, a spokesperson for the Attorney General’s Office told Rolling Stonethat they "cannot comment on ongoing litigation."
According to multiple sources, Wisconsin law requires "any biological material" and "physical evidence" be preserved until the convicted defendant has been discharged from prison. Viewers of the Netflix show will be aware that Steven Avery is currently serving a life sentence.
On February 18, Kathleen Zellner shared an update on Twitter. "The State has confirmed with us that they did in fact give 'many bones' back to TH’s family," she wrote. "They have no proof they gave notice to SA or his attorneys = violation state law & due process."
So, what does this all mean for Avery?
In a statement to Newsweek, Zellner explained: "This admission proves these bone fragments were returned to the family and it is undisputed there was no notice given to Steven Avery or his attorneys and that violates Wisconsin law."
Zellner, who is currently waiting on a response to her motion, wants to make clear that the victim's family should in no way take any blame for any issues in the case.
"The Halbach family are victims of this grave miscarriage of justice," she said. "And they should not be blamed for any aspect of this case."
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
well, and the bigger point, which that article didn't mention (perhaps it was posted prior to the announcement) is....
APPEAL VICTORY!
APPEAL VICTORY!
...
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Bull Dozier
Footballguy
If I'm following the details right, her hope here is that his conviction is vacated based on the mistake of the state of releasing the bones, preventing him from conducting tests which could have exonerated him? Seems like a long shot based on all of the rulings that have gone against him, or refused to have been heard previously, which seemed more persuasive.well, and the bigger point, which that article didn't mention (perhaps it was posted prior to the announcement) is....
APPEAL VICTORY!
...
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
yeah, I'm guessing she's banking on the new trial, where she can present her evidence, name other suspects, etc.
matttyl
Footballguy
Legal question - why would she be able to name other suspects when his original lawyers were not?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
They attempted to but lost the right to do so in pre-trial hearings. I don't know the particulars, but guessing they didn't put together a compelling enough argument against a particular party (or parties) at that time, that would've allowed them to pursue those avenues. Perhaps due to lack of evidence at the time.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Here is the Supplemental Motion for Post-Conviction Relief filed 3/11/19 by Zellner. Pretty good summary of her strategy, IMO.
What a stupid move by the State to return the "suspected bone fragments" to the Hallbach family without clearing it with the defense team.
What a stupid move by the State to return the "suspected bone fragments" to the Hallbach family without clearing it with the defense team.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
1. ok so I get that the state screwed up by giving the bones to the family without asking for permission.....if thats enough for a new trial...so be it...
2. I also get that if the gravel pit bones would prove to be TH's bones that that may in a way not "totally" line up with the States "theory of how things went down".....but let's be honest, there are very few people that actually know "how things went down".....asking the State to completely get every detail of exactly "how things went down" is unrealistic.....there is no way for ANYONE (besides those involved) to know every little detail....
3. but even if the gravel pit bones were TH's.....it doesn't mean Avery didn't do it.....and it doesn't mean the bones were transferred and planted by somebody else in Avery's fire pit....it very well could have been Avery moving the bones from one location to another in an effort to further hide/destroy evidence....
ie: he burns her in his barrels....transfers to the pit to continue burning.....(the big fire that was seen).....when that goes out, he realizes some bones still survived the burning process.....panics and gathers the bones and disposes of them at the gravel pit so they are no longer on his property.....
2. I also get that if the gravel pit bones would prove to be TH's bones that that may in a way not "totally" line up with the States "theory of how things went down".....but let's be honest, there are very few people that actually know "how things went down".....asking the State to completely get every detail of exactly "how things went down" is unrealistic.....there is no way for ANYONE (besides those involved) to know every little detail....
3. but even if the gravel pit bones were TH's.....it doesn't mean Avery didn't do it.....and it doesn't mean the bones were transferred and planted by somebody else in Avery's fire pit....it very well could have been Avery moving the bones from one location to another in an effort to further hide/destroy evidence....
ie: he burns her in his barrels....transfers to the pit to continue burning.....(the big fire that was seen).....when that goes out, he realizes some bones still survived the burning process.....panics and gathers the bones and disposes of them at the gravel pit so they are no longer on his property.....
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Of course, that's plausible. The thing to keep in mind with your #3 is that they don't have to prove he didn't do it. They just have to prove it wasn't done the way the State said it was done, the way I understand it, to get him a new trial. THEN they can start working on the other evidence they have that may point at someone else, which the original trial counsel didn't have the luxury of doing, after losing the pre-trial hearing to try and name other suspects.1. ok so I get that the state screwed up by giving the bones to the family without asking for permission.....if thats enough for a new trial...so be it...
2. I also get that if the gravel pit bones would prove to be TH's bones that that may in a way not "totally" line up with the States "theory of how things went down".....but let's be honest, there are very few people that actually know "how things went down".....asking the State to completely get every detail of exactly "how things went down" is unrealistic.....there is no way for ANYONE (besides those involved) to know every little detail....
3. but even if the gravel pit bones were TH's.....it doesn't mean Avery didn't do it.....and it doesn't mean the bones were transferred and planted by somebody else in Avery's fire pit....it very well could have been Avery moving the bones from one location to another in an effort to further hide/destroy evidence....
ie: he burns her in his barrels....transfers to the pit to continue burning.....(the big fire that was seen).....when that goes out, he realizes some bones still survived the burning process.....panics and gathers the bones and disposes of them at the gravel pit so they are no longer on his property.....
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Seems to me the permission thing is irrelevant in regards to exonerating Avery. What could exonerate Avery is the the fact that the authorities claimed the gravel pit bones had nothing to do with her during the trial, but then after the trial gave the gravel pit bones to the family, which pretty much says they were lying during the trial about their stance on the gravel pit bones not being hers, which limited the crime scene to Avery's property only.
The permission thing is just about hiding this issue from the defense, which is it's own separate issue, but is par for the course regarding how the whole thing has been handled by the county. Add it to the list of corruption by the county.
So really this is a double whammy for the prosecution.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Fair enough....as far as “just proving it wasn’t done the way the State said it was done”.....what do you think the parameters of something like this would be....Nathan R. Jessep said:
first....how much detail does the prosecution have to go into to say “this is how it was done”...?
and then second....the defense could sit there and poke tiny little holes in tons of stuff and say “see told you, thats not how it really happened we want a new trial”.....
I’m going to exaggerate this for the point....but lets say the State in their “theory” says...”Mr. Avery burned her in two different barrels before transferring her to the fire pit”.....and then later on....a third barrel is found somewhere and it also has some of TH’s remains in it....now since there is a third barrel....”it didn’t happen exactly the way the State said it was done”....
the third barrel doesn’t really change the outcome......but technically “it didn’t happen the way the State said it was done”.....
I guess what I am saying is that even if some of her bones were found elsewhere.....it doesn’t necessarily mean things didn’t happen the way the State laid out their theory....Avery moving bones elsewhere would just be like an additional thing that happened.....it doesn’t mean they were planted by somebody else.....heck more bones could end up being found someplace else in the area at some point.....it may have been a good idea for Avery to try and spread them around...
not sure if I said all that the way I meant, but hope I made the point....
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
The prosecution has the burden of proving beyond reasonable doubt that Steve did it. Their case was easier to do that with the evidence showing her body never left the Avery property as someone framing Steve would have a hard time doing that without her leaving the property. With evidence of her body leaving the Avery property, they have a much larger burden of proving beyond reasonable doubt that it had to be Steve as it opens the door to many more possibilities. Which is why the prosecution fought hard to claim the gravel pit had nothing to do with her.
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