Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BigSteelThrill
- Start date
BassNBrew
Footballguy
pantagrapher
Footballguy
I liked the one yesterday who said she couldn't support any candidate who supported TPP but then couldn't tell the interviewer what TPP was.
cstu
Footballguy
No one has yet explained to me how electing President Trump advances the Progressive cause.
Short Corner
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The thing about rocking the boat is that if you tip it over and the result is that people just get wet and cold and miserable, they generally have less of an appetite for rocking the boat going forward.Gotta keep rocking the boat. Eventually it will tip.
The "but Trump" reasoning is the "don't rock the boat" approach.
Last edited by a moderator:
cstu
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Short Corner
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Depends on Congress and what they do...potentially zero and zero. Our politicians seem to be really good at doing nothing.
I think Trump would get 1 justice, replacing Scalia. So, essentially keeping the same balance, but probably getting a more centrist jurist than Scalia.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yup. Maybe you should ask yourself why the people most at risk of drowning if it tips over support Clinton overwhelmingly, while most of the people involved in the third party/protest movement at this point appear to be enjoying the comfortable life jackets afforded by their race, religion, ethnicity and gender.
Last edited by a moderator:
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
renesauz
IBL Representative
There will be nothing marginal about 3 right wingers put on the SC. Any hope of over-turning Citizen's short of a Constitutional Amendment would be gone. Some long-standing decisions the right have been eyeing for decades will be in jeopardy (Roe V Wade)
I can see/appreciate the argument that Trump would get very little through congress though.
Last edited by a moderator:
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
While everyone is talking about a few hundred Sanders supporters (former Sanders supporters?) in Philadelphia, Sanders himself has been getting short shrift. He's been great this week and what he accomplished this election season was amazing. That should not get lost in the shuffle. He moved the entire Democratic party to the left in significant ways.
Best take on him I've seen this week was from Christopher Hayes on Twitter:
THAT guy, the real Bernie Sanders is a great and admirable public figure. The fictional "never retreat, never surrender" caricature painted by his supporters and now being embraced by Jill Stein, not so much, because people like that rarely achieve anything.
Best take on him I've seen this week was from Christopher Hayes on Twitter:
THAT guy, the real Bernie Sanders is a great and admirable public figure. The fictional "never retreat, never surrender" caricature painted by his supporters and now being embraced by Jill Stein, not so much, because people like that rarely achieve anything.
The Commish
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The second part, sure. That's why I said "appear to be." There's obviously tons of pictures and videos of the protesters but pictures and videos can only tell you so much. That's also why I asked if anyone has seen demographic breakdowns of Stein/Johnson supporters a couple days ago.holy stereotypes batman!!!!!!
The first part, not so much. Minorities overwhelmingly support Clinton. There's plenty of data to prove that, both from the primary race and in general election polls.
timschochet
Footballguy
It's astonishing to me how many Bernie supporters (at least in this forum) fail to appreciate just how damaging a Trump presidency for ANY period of time would be to this country.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
It's not me I'm worried about- I'll probably be OK no matter what. I'm worried about the less fortunate. That's what real progressives do.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
So am I. Pointing out that revolutions have casualties does nothing to move the revolution forward. Things need to get worse before they will get better.
The Commish
Footballguy
Again, because one doesn't buy 100% into your fear mongering doesn't mean they don't appreciate the legit problems Trump represents.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You should pass that message along to the the communities who would likely suffer most under a Trump presidency. I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear that you're willing to sacrifice their well-being in service of your revolution.Politician Spock said:
And your last statement is wrong. Things have been pretty consistently "getting better" throughout our history and they will continue to do so as long as we don't elect reactionaries who literally propose to move us backwards in their campaign slogan.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I completely disagree with your last paragraph. But of course I'm looking at the effects of multi-national corporate growth and influence over US politics over decades. Four years would be a necessary blip to correct the macro direction of the country. I'm not concerned about micro directions.
TobiasFunke said:
Somehow, I seriously doubt that the most centrist candidate the Dems have ever nominated, will actually move to the left on any significant issue. Her choice of Kaine established where she wants to be politically, and it is not to the left. Anything in the "platform" is pure pandering, with no real bite.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
The idea of someone who is actually in favor of nuclear proliferation sitting in the Oval Office should be pretty legitimately horrifying to pretty much everyone, I'd say.The Commish said:
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I disagree but it doesn't matter. The party platform and rhetoric has moved to the left, which is what I said (my post didn't even mention Clinton). Sanders has brought certain issues out of the dark and into mainstream political discussions. His campaign has been a huge success. Not nearly as great a success as if he'd won of course, but still worthy of huge praise considering his starting point.
And Kaine was a strategic and practical pick, someone who helps her chances in the election and whom she'd enjoy working with, like every VP pick. They have very little to do with shaping policy.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
LOL at the "most centrist candidate the Democrats have ever nominated".
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
IMO a Donald Trump presidency is far more likely to be a four year advertisement for the relative consistency and reasonableness of the "establishment" you hope to oust than a corrective blip.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Sure...if you're to believe him, but he's a full blown liar right? I've lost track on what the narrative is against this doofus. Being blatantly honest, I have no idea what the guy stands for and I don't trust a word he says and that includes the idea that he's ok with other countries getting nuclear weapons. The "fear" created with respect to Trump is all based on guesses and speculation. We've been backed into a corner too. We're told that all we have to do is listen to what he says to know what he'd do, then in the next breath those same people are calling him a liar and you can't trust what he says.
To be clear, this isn't a defense of Trump in any form or fashion. It's just the reality of where we're at right now in the political
The legitimate fear with Trump is the fear of the unknown. We don't have to go beyond that in the fear category. Of course the fear with Hillary is the fear of the known, so those hell bent on choosing between these two have to sort that out and reconcile the best they can.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Not even close. Jimmy Carter and John Kennedy immediately spring to mind.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
So wait. We shouldn't be afraid of what Trump would do as President because we don't know what he actually thinks or would do? Do you even read the #### you post?
bagger
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I like the optimism here, but we won't know this for several years IMO. It remains to be seen if these "gestures" or "concessions" will have any merit. I'm pessimistic that they will, but I'll happily admit I am wrong if that ends up being the case. I base this on the comparison between the last two established platforms and actions of the party. Outside of low hanging fruit issues, little has been done by the party to move towards the platform goals. They have been more than happy to let the general public work on the tougher issues (gay marriage etc) then hop on board once the wave got going.
My hope is that the platform concessions do give the "new blood" the courage to push for more progressive positions in light of the establishment desires. Probably the best thing that's come of this cycle is making Bernie the "EF Hutton" of politics. I am hopeful that when he speaks people will listen. It's the only shot positive progress has of sticking around until the new blood types can get solidified in their positions and help him.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
There's too many checks and balances in our system for one man to have the negative impact the fear mongering spews about it. Even Hillary can't screw it all up on her own. And that's my issue, Hillary is in bed with a TON of others in the system. Trump is not. The collectivism is far worse for our future than Trumps individualism. The RNC just got the message from voters by losing to Trump. The DNC nearly got the message by losing to Sanders. Unfortunately the DNC needs to get the message from plan B. It's sucks, but it is what it is.
The Commish
Footballguy
No one said this
You're free to come up with whatever scenarios you want and fret over them all you want. That's your prerogative. For me, the fear of having no clue what he'd do is enough.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Footballguy
But Trump is also completely ignorant of how entire facets of our government and constitution work, not to mention foreign policy, and now this Russian connection. Not a Hillary fan but she would be vastly preferable than Trump.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I absolutely agree that we have absolutely no idea on what he actually believes or would actually do given the chance. For me, it's more the fact that he would even say, and evidently consider, stuff that is so obviously absolutely hugely detrimental (nuclear proliferation, default on our national debt, use of nuclear weapons, etc). He's obviously dangerously clueless and has shown no inclination to educate himself. That fact that he would even go there is pretty indicative of the mindset and level of though he puts into what are pretty serious issues. I mean really, the dumbest, least informed drunken uncle at anyone's Thanksgiving dinner knows that it would be really, really bad to inject nukes into the picture in the Middle East. But evidently Trump doesn't, and that is horrifying.Sure...if you're to believe him, but he's a full blown liar right? I've lost track on what the narrative is against this doofus. Being blatantly honest, I have no idea what the guy stands for and I don't trust a word he says and that includes the idea that he's ok with other countries getting nuclear weapons. The "fear" created with respect to Trump is all based on guesses and speculation. We've been backed into a corner too. We're told that all we have to do is listen to what he says to know what he'd do, then in the next breath those same people are calling him a liar and you can't trust what he says.
To be clear, this isn't a defense of Trump in any form or fashion. It's just the reality of where we're at right now in the political
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I agree with the bolded, which is why I think his bark is a lot worse than his bite. He won't be able to accomplish a lot of the crap he is saying he will do. Obama suffered from the same problem.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Yeah, this is complete bull####.
Hillary's platform is significantly to the left of her husband's in 92. It's far, far to the left of Carter (who deregulated the airline industry, cut capital gains taxes, and passed a clearly inadequate stimulus in the name of making "tough choices").
There are real, fair criticisms of Hillary Clinton. But quotes like that make it very, very hard to take Bernie bros seriously. Hillary would expand the ACA to approach universal healthcare coverage. She would implement a large chunk or Bernie's college tuition program (families up to $125K). She's expanding parental leave. She's imposing a 4% tax surcharge on the upper 0.02% of taxpayers. She's proposing expanding union's collective bargaining rights. Does any of this sound like a Republican from the 80s to you? Even a relatively moderate one like Jack Kemp. Nope.
As Pat Moynihan once said, "Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but you don't have a right to your own facts."
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Her tax policy alone would have her banished from the republican party in the blink of an eye.
The Commish
Footballguy
Playing devil's advocate on the bold....perhaps he's just pandering to the zealous uninformed GOP crazies? That's the sort of red meat they feast on...just not wrapped in any sort of political filter. The fear here for me is I don't know which is true.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I'll be voting for Hillary in November, but really don't think that she believes in or will do half of the stuff in the platform.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Her platform when she announced (unaffected by Sanders moving her to the left) or her platform in 2008 wouldn't have made her "the most centrist Democratic nominee ever" or "like a Republican from the 80s". Those kind of statements just show a complete ignorance of the history of Democratic nominees. Which is fine, nobody is expecting everyone to be an expert on how Jimmy Carter governed (as opposed to how he's been portrayed), but it should probably make people leery of making categorical statements like that.
In the 90s, the narrative on Hillary was that she was the unrealistic liberal scold who pushed for single-payer and annoyed Bill's staff. Now, she's the dyed-in-the-wool centrist who worked on the Goldwater campaign. The truth is that she's what she's been her entire adult life. An admittedly flawed mainstream liberal. More hawkish than I'd like on defense, but with a long, long history of work on expanding the social safety net, particularly for the most vulnerable.
I voted for Bernie. I donated to Bernie. I am to the left of Hillary (I'm to left of almost everyone I know). Hillary routinely drives me crazy. But to see my own supposed ideological allies present the same cartoon image of Hillary as Fox News would is just baffling to me.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I'd agree that most of what he says falls into this category, particularly the angry / fearful nativism aspects. But who is he pandering to with the "give nukes to the Saudis" angle? I've seriously never heard that from anyone else, ever.
Similar threads
