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College Admissions Questions (4 Viewers)

Pretty disappointing to hear these scholarship stories. My daughter (HS junior now) has the grades/SAT scores/resume to at least have a shot at any school in the country, but she's not interested in the the top-tier / Ivy league schools anyway (my sister went to Cornell and had a bad experience with the cut-throat, competitive culture and my daughter is cut from the same cloth). I dont think getting accepted at her schools of choice is going to be any problem, but paying for them might be. Like others, we make enough money to not qualify for any aid, but not enough to pay for school from pocket change. She's actually dedicating an entire class-period of the school year next year to focus on finding scholarships. Was hopeful that something would come of it, but not too encouraged by what Im hearing.  :kicksrock:

 
E-Z Glider said:
Pretty disappointing to hear these scholarship stories. My daughter (HS junior now) has the grades/SAT scores/resume to at least have a shot at any school in the country, but she's not interested in the the top-tier / Ivy league schools anyway (my sister went to Cornell and had a bad experience with the cut-throat, competitive culture and my daughter is cut from the same cloth). I dont think getting accepted at her schools of choice is going to be any problem, but paying for them might be. Like others, we make enough money to not qualify for any aid, but not enough to pay for school from pocket change. She's actually dedicating an entire class-period of the school year next year to focus on finding scholarships. Was hopeful that something would come of it, but not too encouraged by what Im hearing.  :kicksrock:
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If your daughter can get into a top tier school, she will likely find that the really good third tier schools will throw her merit based aid because those are the kind of students they want to attract away from the top tiers. 

We expected zero money when went through the process and my daughter got a ton of merit aid from all the schools she was accepted to (good third tier types like Trinity).

 
NewlyRetired said:
If your daughter can get into a top tier school, she will likely find that the really good third tier schools will throw her merit based aid because those are the kind of students they want to attract away from the top tiers. 

We expected zero money when went through the process and my daughter got a ton of merit aid from all the schools she was accepted to (good third tier types like Trinity).
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Yes, we've been hearing this (and its good to hear from someone who's been through the process), but was hoping to also add some scholarship money as well. My fear is that the school she picks as her first choice ends up offering the least amount of merit aid. Maybe it's unrealistic, but I dont want her to have to make her decision based on money. 

 
E-Z Glider said:
Yes, we've been hearing this (and its good to hear from someone who's been through the process), but was hoping to also add some scholarship money as well. My fear is that the school she picks as her first choice ends up offering the least amount of merit aid. Maybe it's unrealistic, but I dont want her to have to make her decision based on money. 
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From my experience, the outside scholarship money is small.  The kids work their ### off to compete against each other for what amounts to $10k for a decent sized one.

The merit scholarships are great and SIGNIFICANT in size (my daughters will be well north of $200k when she graduates).  Most(but not all) do not require any additional work to get, they are based entirely off of the application.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the child understanding the money is an important part of the decision.  There are so many good schools out there.

What we did with my daughter was to have her narrow down her school choices to the point where if she got into any of them, she would happily go to them(she did not use any throw away submissions).  Then after we got the acceptance letters, as a family we worked through the various choices to come up with a final decision together.

The earlier you get your kid to buy in that this should be a family decision the better imo.  Kids are perceptive, they are not going to want you to go into the poor house just because college A is minutely more interesting to them than college B (which might be much more affordable).

Please keep this thread updated on how you proceed.  Finances are a HUGE part of the college experience.  The days of parents "finding a way to pay" are long gone.  You have to balance college choice, with how much the child's major could earn her, coupled with how much in loans she will have when she gets out and how it might affect your own family finances (future kids in college, your retirement etc).

 
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@E-Z Glider I should also repeat, if your daughter is in that small group that could be fighting for Merit Scholarships at the good tier 3 schools, make sure that essay rocks as it is a key tool used to separate the top students when determining who gets the limited amount of merit scholarships.

I can give some high level pointers if interested as this is how my daughter got her merit.

 
E-Z Glider said:
Pretty disappointing to hear these scholarship stories. My daughter (HS junior now) has the grades/SAT scores/resume to at least have a shot at any school in the country, but she's not interested in the the top-tier / Ivy league schools anyway (my sister went to Cornell and had a bad experience with the cut-throat, competitive culture and my daughter is cut from the same cloth). I dont think getting accepted at her schools of choice is going to be any problem, but paying for them might be. Like others, we make enough money to not qualify for any aid, but not enough to pay for school from pocket change. She's actually dedicating an entire class-period of the school year next year to focus on finding scholarships. Was hopeful that something would come of it, but not too encouraged by what Im hearing.  :kicksrock:
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As NewlyRetired mentioned, if your daughter has Ivy credentials, there are any number of other schools that will likely throw money at her.  Will it be her top choice?  Maybe, maybe not.  But that should be part of the process, imo.  She should consider the value of that money as at least one component in her decision-making.

Has she found out yet whether she is a National Merit Finalist?  I know that USC cuts their tuition by 50% for any National Merit Finalists who are admitted.  I imagine there are other schools that do something similar.

 
 I admit I was extremely naïve when we started this process last year. I figured with my daughter’s grades and everything that she accomplished, she would get a full ride somewhere. Now that is completely unrealistic and I know that now.  I have several friends whose kids got full ride athletic scholarships, but it seems full ride academics are harder to come by. 

 My daughter got several merit scholarship offers from schools, but they just weren’t anywhere near enough for her to attend those schools.  For example University of Denver offered her their highest $27,000 a year merit scholarship. The problem is it’s $67,000 a year to attend DU so the other 40K a year is on the student/parents. 

 I am really glad she chose the school she did. They gave her their best merit scholarship at like $8.000 a year. She is going to come out with lower debt-maybe $17,000 total—we will have close to 30k and this will enable her to attend graduate school without being so far behind the eight ball.

 
NewlyRetired said:
@E-Z Glider I should also repeat, if your daughter is in that small group that could be fighting for Merit Scholarships at the good tier 3 schools, make sure that essay rocks as it is a key tool used to separate the top students when determining who gets the limited amount of merit scholarships.

I can give some high level pointers if interested as this is how my daughter got her merit.
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Yes, would love to hear your thoughts... I've read that focusing on a unique skill or strength and then tailoring your essay/resume around that skill is a recipe for success, but what do you do if you don't have an obvious skill/strength? Im sure we could just pick something (music, art, etc), but they're nothing really unique and dont really apply to her major/future (science/research) anyway?

 
Fishboy said:
Daughter #2 is a junior in HS, so we're just starting this whole process all over again. 

Another one with no desire to go to college in state.  Ranked #2 in her class and has been saying she wants to be an actuary since middle school. 

Here are the schools she's considering so far: 

  • Purdue - toured it back in January.  Very highly ranked actuary program, which means they are in demand, so give out very little in terms of scholarships. 
  • Alabama - plan on touring later this summer.  This is my daughter's #1 choice and it's really because of how generous they are for out of state merit scholarships.  She's shooting for the Presidential Scholar award, which is ACT of 33-36 or SAT of 1490-1600 where they award $25K/year.  Even at out of state tuition, this puts them into instate equivalent her in WI.  30-32 ACT still awards 19K/year. 
  • Iowa - plan on touring later this spring.  Don't see this as a likely scenario, as their out of state tuition is stupid and they offer little in terms of out of state merit scholarships. 
  • Vanderbilt - This one is probably both the wild card and the stretch school, as they only have about an 11% acceptance rate.  Additionally, being private we don't see much published about their merit type scholarships.  Plus my daughter thinks it's too small.  But we'll still tour and see what it all has to offer. 
Even though I've been down this road before, I'm open to any suggestions or any experience at the above mentioned schools. 
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I would consider Oklahoma. No idea about about actuarial program, but fits in very ell on that list otherwise and has a huge scholarship if she does well on PSAT.

 
Just want to echo what has been said here recently - it is very good advice. Outside, third-party scholarships are extraordinarily hard to get and offer what amounts to small change in the big scheme of college tuition. Even a $10,000 annual scholarship pales in the face of a $60K+ tuition bill. But merit aid is readily available at just about any school outside the Top 25. And merit aid can often equal half of tuition or more.

To me, it's helpful to think of merit aid as a discount, rather than a scholarship. The Top 25 schools will still be overflowing with very good students, even without offering a discount (merit aid), so they don't. After that, it's a sliding scale. To get a very good student, a school in the Next 25 will offer a discount. And then the further down the pecking order of schools you go, the bigger the discounts get to entice you. Similarly, the more qualified the applicant, the bigger discount a school is willing to offer to get a kid to enroll.

If money is an issue - as it was for us - the most important thing you can do is make sure there's a Financial Safety School on your list. Not a Safety School, that you know will accept your kid, but a Financial Safety School, that you know your family can afford and that your kid is willing to attend, if all else fails. Hopefully it won't come to that - that's why it's a Safety School - but you have to have one. We had very candid discussions with our son during his senior year that money would play a role in his college selection. And we identified a couple of Financial Safeties (which offered significant merit aid) - he wasn't thrilled about them, but he could see himself attending. As it turned out, he got into an Ivy and their need-based aid is pretty generous; his Financial Safety came in about $7,000 cheaper but we could afford the difference and decided it was worth it to send him to somewhere he was really excited about.

 
E-Z Glider said:
Yes, would love to hear your thoughts... I've read that focusing on a unique skill or strength and then tailoring your essay/resume around that skill is a recipe for success, but what do you do if you don't have an obvious skill/strength? Im sure we could just pick something (music, art, etc), but they're nothing really unique and dont really apply to her major/future (science/research) anyway?
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Please note that what I say is high level advice.  Individual colleges and applications readers might have different criteria but these themes can be found from many sources online as well as other parents who went through the process.  I also took it a step further and tried to question the admissions people as to why my child was chosen.

* It goes with out saying that the essay needs to be near flawless at the scholarship decision level.  Zero mistakes in grammar, spelling, awkwardness or any other sentence structure issue.  This should be of no problem for a top student with months and months to write a relatively short paper and yet the admissions people will tell you some shocking stories from what supposedly top students submitted.

* Colleges are not that interested in reading a Captain America type of essay.  One admission guy told me he rolls his eyes on the essays that focus on the kids who go to Africa to build houses for the poor in their spare time. 

* Colleges want to see a self awareness and introspection.  They want to get to know the person as much or more than their deeds (there are plenty of places on the common app for deeds).

* Colleges love to see a vulnerability the child has, and how they deal with it.  Or they also love to see how the child has seen a problem and fixed it.  One example of the latter is a child who witnessed repeated bullying on his way to school on the school bus and how he handled it over the long term with out involving adults.  I will give an example of the former at the end.

* If you are creating an application that has a theme (this is not easy or common, do not feel bad about this.  I would guess 85% of the apps don't do this), then the essay should try to tie into this.   

===============================================

Here is what my daughter wrote about that hit almost every note (she got hand written notes back from the admissions people talking about the effect her essay had on the process for her.  I am 100% convinced it was the essay that got the money).

My daughter has fairly severe social issues and barely speaks or interacts with anyone.  She talked about how she got to this point of never speaking (she felt no one ever took her seriously because of her physical issues of being tiny so she slowly stopped interacting with people over the years).   She then morphed the essay into her love of writing and how she found that when she wrote for her fans online, no one cared what she looked like, they only cared about the words she wrote.  She then added how she can now interact with people all over the world online, editing their stories etc  and they had no idea nor cared that she was some tiny little teenaged girl, they only card about her work quality.

This essay tied in nicely with the rest of her app which focused on her writing (awards, book published, intended major, how she wanted to help out at colleges writing center etc etc.  We also found out later that by luck her recommendations from her two teachers also focused on her writing which helped tie everything together.)

 
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Thanks NR.  I think the approach your daughter took is extremely instructive.  I'm really interested to see what my son ends up writing about.  I'm trying to take a hands off approach and let him work with our consultant who specializes in essay development, but there's no denying that he has experienced a huge event that has had an enormous effect on his life. That said, I don't know if that is something he'll want to write about and even if he does, what approach or perspective he will take.

 
By the way, every admissions person is different, but a rep on one of the college tours stated that you will not stand out if you write a standard essay about personal growth through commitment and dedication to sports. Said that they get thousands of essays like that, and if you’re going to write about your experience in athletics it needs to be a unique take if you want to make an impression. 

 
bigbottom said:
Thanks NR.  I think the approach your daughter took is extremely instructive.  I'm really interested to see what my son ends up writing about.  I'm trying to take a hands off approach and let him work with our consultant who specializes in essay development, but there's no denying that he has experienced a huge event that has had an enormous effect on his life. That said, I don't know if that is something he'll want to write about and even if he does, what approach or perspective he will take.
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let me know how the consultant coaches him.  I am interested to hear different approaches.

 
My experience/advice with a kid heading to UVA this fall (turned down USC, UCLA, Vandy, Cornell, UNC, NYU, VT, W&M) ...

1)  Merit scholarships are hard to come by at state schools.   They are there, but the value isn't usually worth the effort needed to get them.  My son has a 4.5 out of 4.0 and 35 ACT and we don't qualify for need based aid.   I mean he could have gotten say $3k merit, which I know for some people is a lot, but those people are the ones that qualify for financial aid anyway.  So applying for a merit scholarship at a state university is pretty much a waste of time unless your kid wants to do a research project with a professor.  Then it does have value.

2)  Athletic scholarships are easier, especially for girls.  But you may have to accept a lesser school unless your kid is awesome at the sport.  My son had offers to several schools.  But they aren't top colleges.  Several kids at our HS turned down excellent colleges to play sports at schools I've never even heard of and they didn't need the money.  The local paper makes a big deal of it.  So I guess they have a moment of glory.  But why turn down top 25 schools just to say you played a sport that you aren't even close to being a pro at?  Because if you were you wouldn't be going to schools I've never heard of.  Unless you need the athletic scholarship (in which case it's a great deal), go to the better school.  It's time to move on with life rather than cling to athletics.  Play intramural and have fun.  And this comes from someone that played two college sports.  It was fun, but there are other ways to have fun that allow you to focus on academics, which is why you are there.

3)  Private schools - if you don't qualify for need based aid, the best way to get help is call them and say you are going somewhere else unless they can help you out.  This applies to all income levels.  We got some money from USC and Vandy, but $25k isn't going to offset $77k+ annual tuition when compared to an in-state school that is just as good and closer.  But if my son really wanted those schools, I would have made it work and what they chipped in would have helped a ton.  Additionally, private schools will give merit scholarships to kids that are dumb as a box of rocks if it supplements what the athletic department is willing to give them and the coach really wants them.  If your kid is a good athlete, a private school will find a way.

4)  The admissions questions and important positions in extracurriculars really matter for the normal kids.  So many qualified kids these days.  It's the best way to stand out.  Where we are, kids are getting turned down to state schools with 4.4 GPAs and 1500 SATs.  Valedictorians at top 100 US High Schools shouldn't get turned down by their state school.  But they do these days.  It's WAY harder these days.

in the end you can succeed from any college or without a degree at all, but it does give one a head start to come out of the right school with a degree companies want.  So even though many people say it doesn't matter, it does a lot.   It's a long haul to Wall Street coming from Georgia Southwestern or Texas Abilene.  A way longer haul than it is coming from Penn or Princeton. 

 
bigbottom said:
By the way, every admissions person is different, but a rep on one of the college tours stated that you will not stand out if you write a standard essay about personal growth through commitment and dedication to sports. Said that they get thousands of essays like that, and if you’re going to write about your experience in athletics it needs to be a unique take if you want to make an impression. 
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oh I meant to mention this as well!  I also heard from at least two different college reps to stay away from sports in the essay.  Again there are numerous places in the app for things like athletics.

 I think this is important to understand that when we are talking about this, we are talking specifically for the top students who are competing for the scholarships.  If you are not likely to be in that group, any competent essay should do.

Even though I could never get an admissions rep to agree to this, I am convinced the essay is much more likely to keep you out of a school if you botch it than a well written one will get you into a school, all other things being equal.

 
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Brunell4MVP said:
My experience/advice with a kid heading to UVA this fall (turned down USC, UCLA, Vandy, Cornell, UNC, NYU, VT, W&M) ...

1)  Merit scholarships are hard to come by at state schools.   They are there, but the value isn't usually worth the effort needed to get them.  My son has a 4.5 out of 4.0 and 35 ACT and we don't qualify for need based aid.   I mean he could have gotten say $3k merit, which I know for some people is a lot, but those people are the ones that qualify for financial aid anyway.  So applying for a merit scholarship at a state university is pretty much a waste of time unless your kid wants to do a research project with a professor.  Then it does have value.

2)  Athletic scholarships are easier, especially for girls.  But you may have to accept a lesser school unless your kid is awesome at the sport.  My son had offers to several schools.  But they aren't top colleges.  Several kids at our HS turned down excellent colleges to play sports at schools I've never even heard of and they didn't need the money.  The local paper makes a big deal of it.  So I guess they have a moment of glory.  But why turn down top 25 schools just to say you played a sport that you aren't even close to being a pro at?  Because if you were you wouldn't be going to schools I've never heard of.  Unless you need the athletic scholarship (in which case it's a great deal), go to the better school.  It's time to move on with life rather than cling to athletics.  Play intramural and have fun.  And this comes from someone that played two college sports.  It was fun, but there are other ways to have fun that allow you to focus on academics, which is why you are there.

3)  Private schools - if you don't qualify for need based aid, the best way to get help is call them and say you are going somewhere else unless they can help you out.  This applies to all income levels.  We got some money from USC and Vandy, but $25k isn't going to offset $77k+ annual tuition when compared to an in-state school that is just as good and closer.  But if my son really wanted those schools, I would have made it work and what they chipped in would have helped a ton.  Additionally, private schools will give merit scholarships to kids that are dumb as a box of rocks if it supplements what the athletic department is willing to give them and the coach really wants them.  If your kid is a good athlete, a private school will find a way.

4)  The admissions questions and important positions in extracurriculars really matter for the normal kids.  So many qualified kids these days.  It's the best way to stand out.  Where we are, kids are getting turned down to state schools with 4.4 GPAs and 1500 SATs.  Valedictorians at top 100 US High Schools shouldn't get turned down by their state school.  But they do these days.  It's WAY harder these days.

in the end you can succeed from any college or without a degree at all, but it does give one a head start to come out of the right school with a degree companies want.  So even though many people say it doesn't matter, it does a lot.   It's a long haul to Wall Street coming from Georgia Southwestern or Texas Abilene.  A way longer haul than it is coming from Penn or Princeton. 
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Thanks very much for the great advice and insight.  And congrats on your kid's amazing success.  Four of those schools are on my son's radar, but I'm guessing they are going to be total reaches.

 
One other thing to keep in mind. There are 2000+ colleges in the US. About 217 admit fewer than 50% of their applicants. 62 colleges admit less than 25%

So much of the focus and attention and angst surrounds those 62 colleges. But there are so many great choices out there, so be sure to look broadly.

 
The_Man said:
One other thing to keep in mind. There are 2000+ colleges in the US. About 217 admit fewer than 50% of their applicants. 62 colleges admit less than 25%

So much of the focus and attention and angst surrounds those 62 colleges. But there are so many great choices out there, so be sure to look broadly.
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Agree 100%.  I'm not trying to be a spokesperson for professional consultants, but one of the primary benefits I see from engaging one, or regularly engaging your high school college placement office, is to learn about schools that may be a fit for your child that you've never considered or may have never even heard of.  One good piece of advice I heard was to visit a lot of schools locally because they're easy to get to.  Even if you child isn't interested in going to those schools, they'll get a feel for what kind of school environment they like.  Big, small, college town, in a major city, etc.  And if there is a particular school environment they like, share that with your college counselor and they may have suggestions for similar types of schools across the country that fit the profile.

 
Good advice on avoiding “How Sports Changed/Shaped My Life” as an essay topic.  

I’d also avoid anything too politically or socially charged unless it’s for a specific school that prides itself on having a specific political or social scene.  

Please, pretty please with sugar on it, avoid anything about the process of writing the essay.  It’s common for high school kids to start a paper or speech with “as I sat down to write this...” because it seems honest and human.  It’s also a trope used often in teen-targeted pop culture.  

Don’t use the essay to make excuses for that semester with three Bs or getting a 2 on an AP exam.  Talk about strengths and passions.  If you’re scared about a transcript blip that you genuinely feel isn’t your fault, have a school counselor or assistant principal write something on your behalf to do the explaining for you.

 
bigbottom said:
Agree 100%.  I'm not trying to be a spokesperson for professional consultants, but one of the primary benefits I see from engaging one, or regularly engaging your high school college placement office, is to learn about schools that may be a fit for your child that you've never considered or may have never even heard of.  One good piece of advice I heard was to visit a lot of schools locally because they're easy to get to.  Even if you child isn't interested in going to those schools, they'll get a feel for what kind of school environment they like.  Big, small, college town, in a major city, etc.  And if there is a particular school environment they like, share that with your college counselor and they may have suggestions for similar types of schools across the country that fit the profile.
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:goodposting:  Look for nearby colleges that offer “shadow days” where the kid can folllow a student around on a typical class day.  The kid can get a feel for what colleg classrooms are really like, where the students eat lunch, get a feel for daily life on campus you don’t get on a weekend visit where you go to parties with your cousin or on a guided tour with 10-20 other families.

 
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bigbottom said:
 One good piece of advice I heard was to visit a lot of schools locally because they're easy to get to.  Even if you child isn't interested in going to those schools, they'll get a feel for what kind of school environment they like.  Big, small, college town, in a major city, etc.  
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This is exactly what we did.  We knew my daughter was likely to have issues where ever she went so we did not focus at all on majors and just focused on environments first.

It was very helpful.  We also did this slowly sprinkling in visits over a 2-3 year time period so that she was not overwhelmed.

 
There are thousands of dollars, even tens of thousands of dollars, you can swing in your favor if you understand the math behind the FAFSA and how EFC is calculated.  There are a few counterintuitive parts in the EFC calculation that run contrary to conventional financial wisdom.  

 
Brunell4MVP said:
My experience/advice with a kid heading to UVA this fall (turned down USC, UCLA, Vandy, Cornell, UNC, NYU, VT, W&M) ...

1)  Merit scholarships are hard to come by at state schools.   They are there, but the value isn't usually worth the effort needed to get them.  My son has a 4.5 out of 4.0 and 35 ACT and we don't qualify for need based aid.   I mean he could have gotten say $3k merit, which I know for some people is a lot, but those people are the ones that qualify for financial aid anyway.  So applying for a merit scholarship at a state university is pretty much a waste of time unless your kid wants to do a research project with a professor.  Then it does have value.

2)  Athletic scholarships are easier, especially for girls.  But you may have to accept a lesser school unless your kid is awesome at the sport.  My son had offers to several schools.  But they aren't top colleges.  Several kids at our HS turned down excellent colleges to play sports at schools I've never even heard of and they didn't need the money.  The local paper makes a big deal of it.  So I guess they have a moment of glory.  But why turn down top 25 schools just to say you played a sport that you aren't even close to being a pro at?  Because if you were you wouldn't be going to schools I've never heard of.  Unless you need the athletic scholarship (in which case it's a great deal), go to the better school.  It's time to move on with life rather than cling to athletics.  Play intramural and have fun.  And this comes from someone that played two college sports.  It was fun, but there are other ways to have fun that allow you to focus on academics, which is why you are there.

3)  Private schools - if you don't qualify for need based aid, the best way to get help is call them and say you are going somewhere else unless they can help you out.  This applies to all income levels.  We got some money from USC and Vandy, but $25k isn't going to offset $77k+ annual tuition when compared to an in-state school that is just as good and closer.  But if my son really wanted those schools, I would have made it work and what they chipped in would have helped a ton.  Additionally, private schools will give merit scholarships to kids that are dumb as a box of rocks if it supplements what the athletic department is willing to give them and the coach really wants them.  If your kid is a good athlete, a private school will find a way.

4)  The admissions questions and important positions in extracurriculars really matter for the normal kids.  So many qualified kids these days.  It's the best way to stand out.  Where we are, kids are getting turned down to state schools with 4.4 GPAs and 1500 SATs.  Valedictorians at top 100 US High Schools shouldn't get turned down by their state school.  But they do these days.  It's WAY harder these days.

in the end you can succeed from any college or without a degree at all, but it does give one a head start to come out of the right school with a degree companies want.  So even though many people say it doesn't matter, it does a lot.   It's a long haul to Wall Street coming from Georgia Southwestern or Texas Abilene.  A way longer haul than it is coming from Penn or Princeton. 
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Thanks for this!

Interesting takes on the consultants too. Her special interest teacher pushed for one, and we considered it, but decided against it when she said she did not want to pursue an Ivy-type school. If they can help her get more merit-aid, it may be worth re-visiting? I really wasn't opposed to spending the money, just wasnt sure it was necessary. I have LOTS of friends who spend WAY more on athletic training/coaching and their kids will likely never get a scholarship in these sports anyway.

eta - lol, the thanks was supposed to be for @NewlyRetired's post with help on essays, but thanks to Brunell too!

 
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If the kid is dead-set in a career that either requires education beyond undergraduate (law, medicine) or would greatly benefit from a postgraduate degree (MBA)... that changes college selection a lot more than high school guidance counselors like to talk about.  

You’re going to be applying for school again in a few years.  So do you want to experience school on different campuses or parts of the country?  Will you be better-off long-term as an average student at your reach school or as a standout at your safety school?  If you thought undergraduate cost a ####load of money, how much do you think law/med school will cost?

 
And as I posted earlier in this thread (and many of you have been expounding on), having a "story" seems to be the thing that sets you apart from the pack. Listen I am not going to apologize in that my kids grew up in Beaver Cleaverland. My wife and I have been together since after high school (class of 87), we both are natives of Colorado, own a house and our two daughters have never wanted for anything. However, when trying to tell "a story'  that really doesn't have a lot of arcs, that probably represents the death for a lot of scholarship offers. I firmly believe that is why she didn't get into her dream school--which was Colorado College. I am thankful now because I would have ended up six figures in debt because of that, but at the time, I was just :no:  why they didn't want her--especially since that is where her mom graduated from.

Our other daughter will be entering high school this next year and I think she can present a story. She shouldn't have survived in-utero. She has had to fight through years of physical therapy. She is a straight "A" kid with lots of extra-curricular stuff already, but she will be starting volleyball and that maybe adds another layer of the onion, Further she has had to live in the huge shadow her sister cast. I can almost seeing these essays writing themselves for her.

I can't imagine how boring my life would be without these kids. Every day is a new challenge.

 
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Spent some time this week with a University of Chicago (32000 applications per year for a class of about 1500) admissions counselor.  A few highlights:

UChicago uses "the Disneyland test" on essays.  When the student is describing the school, could you cut/paste "Disneyland" for the name of the school and have the essay still make sense?  It's their way of filtering essays that make general praise without making statements unique to, or even specific to, the institution.  

If you essay is about why your grandfather is your hero, or why working at the aquarium changed your life, or anything of those themes... make sure the essay is still about YOU.  They get a lot of essays of these kinds where they want to give the grandfather an award or get season passes to the aquarium, but don't know anything new about the student.  

Context of GPA is at least as important as the number.  So many schools use different scales, or different grade-weighting for AP classes, or artificially inflate grades to help kids get into elite colleges and/or appease parents, the context of the GPA has to come into play.  A student that doesn't have AP weighting on their GPA at a school that has 1-2 AP classes is treated differently than a student who didn't take any AP classes at a high school that offers 12-15 of them.  A student at a school that hands out As like candy to help college admissions (we both dropped the name of a high school in my area that is notorious for this) will be treated differently that a student who got a few Bs but still has a high class rank because the school has an honest grading system.  

UChicago chooses not to have minimum cutoffs for SAT/ACT scores for applicants, again for context.  A high-income family is more likely to be able to treat SAT/ACT score as an elective course or extracurricular activity, devoting months to boosting that score where a low-income family might need their kid to work a job to help the family make rent.  IMO they gave a contradictory message on this, because they also "superscore" standardized tests (take highest subscores from different tests to form a composite score that might be higher than the student's best composite on a single test day), a policy that heavily favors high-income families that can provide 5-6 standardized test opportunities for their student.  

UChicago is known for their "uncommon prompt", an unconventional essay prompt that rewards creative thinking.  Faculty and alumni submit ideas for questions, and the admissions staff chooses five each year, the applicant choosing one to respond to.  Some of their better-known ones are "Where is Waldo, really?" (famous response by an aspiring history major who wrote a response about baby name trends by decade and pinpointed where Waldo was in time by the popularity of Waldo as a baby name) "Create a new major at UChicago by adding, removing, or replacing one letter in an existing major, and describe what its course of study would be? (famous response by the creator of "Billogical Sciences", criticizing how science is traditionally taught in schools) or "Apply one set of rules or laws to an environment where they are normally not used" (famous response by student who applied Newton's Laws of Motion to friendships).  If your student is having trouble coming up with an inspired or unusual personal statement that will stand out from the stack, search for old lists of UChicago uncommon essay questions for ideas.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Spent some time this week with a University of Chicago (32000 applications per year for a class of about 1500) admissions counselor.  A few highlights:

UChicago uses "the Disneyland test" on essays.  When the student is describing the school, could you cut/paste "Disneyland" for the name of the school and have the essay still make sense?  It's their way of filtering essays that make general praise without making statements unique to, or even specific to, the institution.  

If you essay is about why your grandfather is your hero, or why working at the aquarium changed your life, or anything of those themes... make sure the essay is still about YOU.  They get a lot of essays of these kinds where they want to give the grandfather an award or get season passes to the aquarium, but don't know anything new about the student.  

Context of GPA is at least as important as the number.  So many schools use different scales, or different grade-weighting for AP classes, or artificially inflate grades to help kids get into elite colleges and/or appease parents, the context of the GPA has to come into play.  A student that doesn't have AP weighting on their GPA at a school that has 1-2 AP classes is treated differently than a student who didn't take any AP classes at a high school that offers 12-15 of them.  A student at a school that hands out As like candy to help college admissions (we both dropped the name of a high school in my area that is notorious for this) will be treated differently that a student who got a few Bs but still has a high class rank because the school has an honest grading system.  

UChicago chooses not to have minimum cutoffs for SAT/ACT scores for applicants, again for context.  A high-income family is more likely to be able to treat SAT/ACT score as an elective course or extracurricular activity, devoting months to boosting that score where a low-income family might need their kid to work a job to help the family make rent.  IMO they gave a contradictory message on this, because they also "superscore" standardized tests (take highest subscores from different tests to form a composite score that might be higher than the student's best composite on a single test day), a policy that heavily favors high-income families that can provide 5-6 standardized test opportunities for their student.  

UChicago is known for their "uncommon prompt", an unconventional essay prompt that rewards creative thinking.  Faculty and alumni submit ideas for questions, and the admissions staff chooses five each year, the applicant choosing one to respond to.  Some of their better-known ones are "Where is Waldo, really?" (famous response by an aspiring history major who wrote a response about baby name trends by decade and pinpointed where Waldo was in time by the popularity of Waldo as a baby name) "Create a new major at UChicago by adding, removing, or replacing one letter in an existing major, and describe what its course of study would be? (famous response by the creator of "Billogical Sciences", criticizing how science is traditionally taught in schools) or "Apply one set of rules or laws to an environment where they are normally not used" (famous response by student who applied Newton's Laws of Motion to friendships).  If your student is having trouble coming up with an inspired or unusual personal statement that will stand out from the stack, search for old lists of UChicago uncommon essay questions for ideas.  
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The first 4 things you mentioned are common among-st every school we visited.

The last was unique and I really like it.  Most of the school specific prompts my daughter answered I found to be kind of boring to be honest.  I like the idea of something a little wider than "tell us how you will improve our campus"

 
For what it’s worth, the two personal statement essay themes we’ve been told to avoid if possible, not because they aren’t good topics but because they are so common that admissions people tend to skim them / tune out, are:

1) How my experience in *sport of choice* has taught me the value of teamwork / perseverance / dedication

2) How my mission trip / volunteer position helped me grow as a person. 

Of course, these are just a couple admissions people’s opinion, and they acknowledged that there are always exceptions, particularly if the student has a really unique take on the above topics. But they said if the student is going to go this route, he/she better highlight that unique take right up front to grab the reader. 

 
My daughter received a book award yesterday, there were around 15 or so presented to members of her junior class of 400. I'd never heard of them before but google tells me colleges, typically competitive ones, give book awards along with criteria for awarding them to high schools, and leave it to faculty/admin to decide who gets them. The point is to promote the colleges to high-achievers, but receiving one from a particular school is by no means a guarantee of admissions to the school for the student who receives it. My daughter received one of two Harvard Prize Books, awarded by the Harvard Club of Boston to a student "who displays excellence in scholarship and high character, combined with achievement in other fields." They gave one each to a male and female student. Very proud, it seemed like one of the better ones handed out. And the dude who received it with her is regarded by most as the top academic in the class (they don't publicize class rankings).

My question is what kind of juice if any does the award carry on a resume? We know she's got next to no shot at Harvard, but wondering how much of a differentiator it might be in the eyes of admissions folks elsewhere.

 
Nigel said:
My daughter received a book award yesterday, there were around 15 or so presented to members of her junior class of 400. I'd never heard of them before but google tells me colleges, typically competitive ones, give book awards along with criteria for awarding them to high schools, and leave it to faculty/admin to decide who gets them. The point is to promote the colleges to high-achievers, but receiving one from a particular school is by no means a guarantee of admissions to the school for the student who receives it. My daughter received one of two Harvard Prize Books, awarded by the Harvard Club of Boston to a student "who displays excellence in scholarship and high character, combined with achievement in other fields." They gave one each to a male and female student. Very proud, it seemed like one of the better ones handed out. And the dude who received it with her is regarded by most as the top academic in the class (they don't publicize class rankings).

My question is what kind of juice if any does the award carry on a resume? We know she's got next to no shot at Harvard, but wondering how much of a differentiator it might be in the eyes of admissions folks elsewhere.
Click to expand...
my daughter also received the Harvard Book Award (I think the official name was Harvard Prize Book), which in our school goes to the student who was #1 after their junior year (we found this out later as the school also does not pub class rank early)

I don't think it holds too much weight but it fills up a slot on the awards section on the common app with something tangible.  Awards are in the general importance area of activities and come after grades/test scores/course load etc for the people making the decisions.

There are some kids who get no awards so that must be a tough section for those kids so having something tangible just will make her feel better when filling out the common app.

 
Nigel said:
My daughter received a book award yesterday, there were around 15 or so presented to members of her junior class of 400. I'd never heard of them before but google tells me colleges, typically competitive ones, give book awards along with criteria for awarding them to high schools, and leave it to faculty/admin to decide who gets them. The point is to promote the colleges to high-achievers, but receiving one from a particular school is by no means a guarantee of admissions to the school for the student who receives it. My daughter received one of two Harvard Prize Books, awarded by the Harvard Club of Boston to a student "who displays excellence in scholarship and high character, combined with achievement in other fields." They gave one each to a male and female student. Very proud, it seemed like one of the better ones handed out. And the dude who received it with her is regarded by most as the top academic in the class (they don't publicize class rankings).

My question is what kind of juice if any does the award carry on a resume? We know she's got next to no shot at Harvard, but wondering how much of a differentiator it might be in the eyes of admissions folks elsewhere.
Click to expand...
One idea is to ask the person who recommended her for the award to be one of her common app recommenders.  They clearly think very highly of her, and this would be the ideal way to have them describe why they chose her.  

 
Nigel said:
My question is what kind of juice if any does the award carry on a resume? We know she's got next to no shot at Harvard, but wondering how much of a differentiator it might be in the eyes of admissions folks elsewhere.
Click to expand...
The award itself doesn't mean much of anything - but what it signifies is important, which is that she is likely the highest-ranked girl in the class academically. My son received it as a junior at his high school awards day, and ended up as valedictorian. The Harvard book award seems generally to go to the highest ranked junior at most schools. Congratulations on her great work!

 
The_Man said:
The award itself doesn't mean much of anything - but what it signifies is important, which is that she is likely the highest-ranked girl in the class academically. My son received it as a junior at his high school awards day, and ended up as valedictorian. The Harvard book award seems generally to go to the highest ranked junior at most schools. Congratulations on her great work!
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This here is correct.  It speaks to her academic prowess, however, admission committees will figure out her academic performance in relation to her peers in other ways that will be much more impactful. 

Regardless, congratulations!

 
Well, today is a big day for those who took the SATs in the spring, "get your scores day", and my wife just got a call from our very disappointed (like, hysterically crying) daughter. She did great her first time around, 700 Math/730 Reading, but not nearly well enough in her mind. After visits the past several months to a bunch of competitive schools she has become obsessed with Georgetown, a BIG reach for her. She hadn't done any concentrated prep for the SAT the first time but prior to this last one she got up early six Sundays in a row to spend two hours with a highly regarded prep guy to work solely on getting her Math score up. This same guy had done a miraculous job two years earlier getting my son ready for an exam that got him into a competitive prep school, and I know others who've had success with him on the SATs. She was hoping for/expecting a big jump in Math and a modest jump in English. Anyway, the scores came back today: 690 Math/760 English. She is devastated, taking no solace in the composite improvement, completely fixated on her "failure" in the Math section. :(

She was hoping to be done with standardized testing after she takes the three SAT Subject tests in August, and apply early decision to Georgetown Nov 1. Now she's freaking out that she'll need to take the SATs again in early November, scores for which won't be available to submit with the early-decision app. She can also take ACTs and if she does well submit those scores in lieu of SATs.

I love her competiveness and drive, she's an overachiever which is ####### awesome given her dad, if I'm being honest with myself, is the opposite. But the pressure she puts on herself isn't healthy, and I was really hoping she scored well enough to put that piece of the process to bed. Now she'll be wound up over this for another three months. We really need to do a better job helping her understand there are other places she could end up and be just as happy.

 
Nigel said:
Well, today is a big day for those who took the SATs in the spring, "get your scores day", and my wife just got a call from our very disappointed (like, hysterically crying) daughter. She did great her first time around, 700 Math/730 Reading, but not nearly well enough in her mind. After visits the past several months to a bunch of competitive schools she has become obsessed with Georgetown, a BIG reach for her. She hadn't done any concentrated prep for the SAT the first time but prior to this last one she got up early six Sundays in a row to spend two hours with a highly regarded prep guy to work solely on getting her Math score up. This same guy had done a miraculous job two years earlier getting my son ready for an exam that got him into a competitive prep school, and I know others who've had success with him on the SATs. She was hoping for/expecting a big jump in Math and a modest jump in English. Anyway, the scores came back today: 690 Math/760 English. She is devastated, taking no solace in the composite improvement, completely fixated on her "failure" in the Math section. :(

She was hoping to be done with standardized testing after she takes the three SAT Subject tests in August, and apply early decision to Georgetown Nov 1. Now she's freaking out that she'll need to take the SATs again in early November, scores for which won't be available to submit with the early-decision app. She can also take ACTs and if she does well submit those scores in lieu of SATs.

I love her competiveness and drive, she's an overachiever which is ####### awesome given her dad, if I'm being honest with myself, is the opposite. But the pressure she puts on herself isn't healthy, and I was really hoping she scored well enough to put that piece of the process to bed. Now she'll be wound up over this for another three months. We really need to do a better job helping her understand there are other places she could end up and be just as happy.
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we also considered taking them a 3rd time but the timing, as you mentioned, made us change our minds.  In the end my daughter went the test optional route.

My knowledge of what various schools require for SAT scores is low.  Her super score of 1460 seems solid especially as it appears she is also at the very top of her class grades wise.

I looked up Georgetown and the average SAT score of the accepted student is exactly 1460, so if the rest of her app look great, she should be good to go!

This is a super stressful time for senior kids and parents, especially for overachieving kids who have never been rejected from anything in their life.  The best council you can give is that 99.5% of the kids in the country would want to trade places with her.

 
Nigel said:
Well, today is a big day for those who took the SATs in the spring, "get your scores day", and my wife just got a call from our very disappointed (like, hysterically crying) daughter. She did great her first time around, 700 Math/730 Reading, but not nearly well enough in her mind. After visits the past several months to a bunch of competitive schools she has become obsessed with Georgetown, a BIG reach for her. She hadn't done any concentrated prep for the SAT the first time but prior to this last one she got up early six Sundays in a row to spend two hours with a highly regarded prep guy to work solely on getting her Math score up. This same guy had done a miraculous job two years earlier getting my son ready for an exam that got him into a competitive prep school, and I know others who've had success with him on the SATs. She was hoping for/expecting a big jump in Math and a modest jump in English. Anyway, the scores came back today: 690 Math/760 English. She is devastated, taking no solace in the composite improvement, completely fixated on her "failure" in the Math section. :(

She was hoping to be done with standardized testing after she takes the three SAT Subject tests in August, and apply early decision to Georgetown Nov 1. Now she's freaking out that she'll need to take the SATs again in early November, scores for which won't be available to submit with the early-decision app. She can also take ACTs and if she does well submit those scores in lieu of SATs.

I love her competiveness and drive, she's an overachiever which is ####### awesome given her dad, if I'm being honest with myself, is the opposite. But the pressure she puts on herself isn't healthy, and I was really hoping she scored well enough to put that piece of the process to bed. Now she'll be wound up over this for another three months. We really need to do a better job helping her understand there are other places she could end up and be just as happy.
Click to expand...
Don't know if this is much solace, but the curve on the June sitting of the SAT is totally F'ed. One wrong Math answer resulted in a 770. Three wrong was a 720. I've seen multiple reports of kids getting MORE questions correct and yet having their scores go down. If you have the raw info from her last sitting, you might look and see if that happened in your daughter's case.

Long story short, the SAT is floundering since the redesign. Also, with more schools going test optional, the remaining pool of kids who DO take the test are those likely to score better. Smaller pool of higher-scoring kids is messing up their score distribution.

 
The_Man said:
Long story short, the SAT is floundering since the redesign. Also, with more schools going test optional, the remaining pool of kids who DO take the test are those likely to score better. Smaller pool of higher-scoring kids is messing up their score distribution.
Click to expand...
while my daughter certainly benefited from test optional, I am convinced that there are more reasons schools are using this method now than what they publicly say, the biggest one is what you mentioned.

By offering a test optional route, colleges immediately will see their average SAT scores rise making them look better in the rankings that far too many parents IMO hold as gospel.

 
The_Man said:
Don't know if this is much solace, but the curve on the June sitting of the SAT is totally F'ed. One wrong Math answer resulted in a 770. Three wrong was a 720. I've seen multiple reports of kids getting MORE questions correct and yet having their scores go down. If you have the raw info from her last sitting, you might look and see if that happened in your daughter's case.

Long story short, the SAT is floundering since the redesign. Also, with more schools going test optional, the remaining pool of kids who DO take the test are those likely to score better. Smaller pool of higher-scoring kids is messing up their score distribution.
Click to expand...
Interesting, do you have a link to any of those reports? Might help with talking her off the ledge.

 
The_Man said:
I don't have anything to link to, just info through my work at a private school. But there are a couple of threads on the SAT subreddit, here's one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sat/comments/8xyx28/upvote_if_you_got_screwed_by_junes_curve/

Probably something similar on the College Confidential subforum about Testing
Click to expand...
Same thing happened to my son. His score went down 30 points in Math and he had less wrong. Sucks because he thought he did better in Math and was hoping to get his super score up. Oh well, I think he did well enough last time but just kind of odd how that works. He was already thinking about taking the August one but it might not be worth the bother.

 
Nigel said:
We really need to do a better job helping her understand there are other places she could end up and be just as happy.
Click to expand...
I had this struggle with my daughter.  She applied to only reach schools, and when she got rejected from all but one of them she was disappointed.

I asked her to name her ideal job.  She wants to be a US Attorney.  So I looked up the bios of US Attorneys and showed her examples of people in her dream job that didn't go to ivy league schools.  Showing her a path to her ideal career choice that didn't involve an ivy league education helped calm her down.

 
The more I read the more aggravating this is. Why did they give this test if they knew how "easy" it was? It was a complete waste of money and time for all who took it, and those who spent additional money on getting professional help with prep (like we did) were screwed further.

The good news is that my daughter has moved on from being disappointed with herself to just being pissed at the College Board like everyone else. The fact that she jumped 30 points in Reading (also curved harshly, though not as bad as Math) is also remarkable. Still sucks that she'll have to grind through additional testing, and the stress that accompanies it.

 
NewlyRetired said:
The first semester bill from Trinity came in today.

Even with the full tuition grants and other grants, it came to just a little over $7000.   That should drop to around $5500 for the second semester because the health care cost for the full year is taken on the first semesters bill.

So it should come in around $12.5k before books and living expenses for the first year.  Now I need to go to Fidelity and figure out how to handle this with her 529 plan. 

My daughter has many various issues, one of them being she has serious food issues.  So we are paying close to $5k(not factoring in how the grants hit this) for a food plan she will never use.  My hope is when I visit her on the weekends to get as much use out of her food card at any non cafeteria eating places as possible :)
Click to expand...
What did she end up majoring in?  Engineering?

 
Nigel said:
The more I read the more aggravating this is. Why did they give this test if they knew how "easy" it was? It was a complete waste of money and time for all who took it, and those who spent additional money on getting professional help with prep (like we did) were screwed further.

The good news is that my daughter has moved on from being disappointed with herself to just being pissed at the College Board like everyone else. The fact that she jumped 30 points in Reading (also curved harshly, though not as bad as Math) is also remarkable. Still sucks that she'll have to grind through additional testing, and the stress that accompanies it.
Click to expand...
Not to belabor the issue, but Inside Higher Ed has a pretty good story about this whole thing today:

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/07/12/surprisingly-low-scores-mathematics-sat-stun-and-anger-students

 
Nigel said:
The more I read the more aggravating this is.
Click to expand...
I am curious when this sentiment began, but it's certainly been a constant since I started working in higher ed 5 years ago.  And I don't work at a prestigious school, by any means.  I can only imagine how much more wide spread it must be with potential students/parents at those schools.  It is confirmation why I hate the trends toward standardized testing though.

 
eoMMan said:
What did she end up majoring in?  Engineering?
Click to expand...
no, my daughter unfortunately has no interest in following in her families footsteps.  Both grandfathers, both parents, both uncles on my side, and all 7 of her cousins on my side are all engineers.

She wants to be a writer.

 
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