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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (8 Viewers)

Don't Noonan said:
According to the Washington Post, cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015.  Considering a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person what about justice for our police officers?  40% of cop killers are black, and blacks make up what 12% of our population?  

As a country we need to find a way to help out the black community and specifically in inner cities whether it be through education or benefits.   I don't have the answers but kneeling for the anthem seems to not the way to go about that.
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Or is it?  Has us talking about it.  

If whites are killed 2:1 over blacks by police how come it seems like the videos of police shooting blacks out numbers those of cops shooting whites?  Where is the equivalent video of a white guy getting shot and killed in the back by a South Carolina officer?

 
Henry Ford said:
That's not clear at all to me. RHE has always struck me as one of the most country-loving people I've seen on these boards. He's taken an oath to our Constitution. Have you?
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I have.

If a person can't say that America is the greatest country in the world right off the bat, then it's pretty clear that they don't think it is.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
According to the Washington Post, cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015.  Considering a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person what about justice for our police officers?  40% of cop killers are black, and blacks make up what 12% of our population?  

As a country we need to find a way to help out the black community and specifically in inner cities whether it be through education or benefits.   I don't have the answers but kneeling for the anthem seems to not the way to go about that.
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That figure is correct: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

But the rest of numbers are not from the Washington Post's findings, particularly the a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person. I would like the links to that data as something doesn't ring right about it and has the flavor of mixing at least two different studies and coming with a conclusion not found by either.

And justifying police shootings of unarmed black men based on that data seems a bizarre leap of logic.

 
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General Malaise said:
That and we have the freedom to protest in this country however we see fit and if a man or woman chooses to exercise that freedom and protest, how does that make them unpatriotic?  

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf was an NBA star who didn't stand for the anthem 20 years ago.  He viewed the American flag as a symbol of oppression and racism.  I don't recall all this outcry about not being a patriot then and NBA ratings are doing just fine 20 years later.  But now because more people are doing it in a different sport, there's an outcry?  We sure our selective in our faux outrage here.  
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Sure we do - on your own time.  When you're representing an employer it's not so cut and dried.  The NFL has every right to step in and say "Knock that stupid #### off" if it affects their overall product.

 
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squistion said:
That figure is correct: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

But the rest of numbers are not from the Washington Post's findings, particularly the a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person. I would like the links to that data as something doesn't ring right about it and has the flavor of mixing at two different studies and coming with a conclusion not found by either.

And justifying police shootings of unarmed black men based on that data seems a bizarre leap of logic.
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And black ppl are 13.3% of the population. So, while I suck at math and making up formulae...

 
squistion said:
That figure is correct: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

But the rest of numbers are not from the Washington Post's findings, particularly the a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person. I would like the links to that data as something doesn't ring right about it and has the flavor of mixing at two different studies and coming with a conclusion not found by either.

And justifying police shootings of unarmed black men based on that data seems a bizarre leap of logic.
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Also Washington post. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/19/academic-research-on-police-shootings-and-race/

 
MaxThreshold said:
Sure we do - on your own time.  When you're representing an employer it's not so cut and dried.  The NFL has every right to step in and say "Knock that stupid #### off" if it affects their overall product.
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Not according to the current CBA with the NFL Players Union. Unlike the NBA, the NFL can not fine or discipline a player for not standing during the anthem.

 
squistion said:
Not according to the current CBA with the NFL Players Union. Unlike the NBA, the NFL can not fine or discipline a player for not standing during the anthem.
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Not the same thing.  Two parties agreeing to terms is NOT the same as exercising your free speech guaranteed under our Constitution.  While representing an employer I don't have the right to protest on company time unless my employer allows me to do it.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
While I believe it is unpatriotic,  I kind of agree with you here.  This went viral after Trump stupidly decided to tweet about this and calling the kneelers SOBs.  Half the country already hated Trump and he just made us more divided.  This past weekend was more of an F You to Trump than anything else.  
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I just want to say I agree with your agreeing with what GM said and that what GM said he said with an emoji, which in that instance said it all.

 
MaxThreshold said:
Not the same thing.  Two parties agreeing to terms is NOT the same as exercising your free speech guaranteed under our Constitution.  While representing an employer I don't have the right to protest on company time unless my employer allows me to do it.
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Correct, and under the current CBA, the NFL allows them to do it. Goodell made it very clear when Kaep first started his protest that although he did not personally like it, it would be allowed:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2016/09/07/goodell-doesnt-agree-with-kaepernicks-actions/89958636/

Roger Goodell on Colin Kaepernick: 'We believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL'

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell made his first public comments about San Francisco QB Colin Kaepernick’s one-man protest.

Kaepernick has sat or taken a knee before every 49ers preseason game this season. Last week, teammate Eric Reid joined him in the protest as did Seattle Seahawks cornerback Jeremy Lane in his game against the Oakland Raiders.

There is no rule in the NFL saying players must stand during the national anthem.

Goodell’s comments, according to NFL Network, were as follows:

"Well my personal thoughts are... I support our players when they want to see change in society, and we don't live in a perfect society. We live in an imperfect society. On the other hand, we believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL. I personally believe very strongly in that. I think it's important to have respect for our country, for our flag, for the people who make our country better; for law enforcement, and for our military who are out fighting for our freedoms and our ideals.

"These are all important things for us, and that moment is a very important moment. So, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing. We encourage our players to be respectful in that time and I like to think of it as a moment where we can unite as a country. And that's what we need more, and that's what I think football does - it unites our country. So I would like to see us focusing on our similarities and trying to bring people together.

"Players have a platform, and it's his right to do that. We encourage them to be respectful and it's important for them to do that.

"I think it's important if they see things they want to change in society, and clearly we have things that can get better in society, and we should get better. But we have to choose respectful ways of doing that so that we can achieve the outcomes we ultimately want and do it with the values and ideals that make our country great."
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Doug B said:
There are a significant number of people who kind of move through society disaffected with pretty much everything around them. They don't vote and they don't feel they have a stake in things in general. Just kind of keep their heads down and handle what's in front of them day in and day out.

For them, Trump is not much more than a diversion. Alternatively a positive or negative one.

Keep in mind that the people who post in threads like this feel invested in the world around them. Some people don't -- and pollsters happen upon those people with some frequency.
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I don't understand your point here. Are you saying that 5% isn't paying attention so it makes sense they'd change their opinion from polling period to polling period?

 
General Malaise said:
Or is it?  Has us talking about it.  

If whites are killed 2:1 over blacks by police how come it seems like the videos of police shooting blacks out numbers those of cops shooting whites?  Where is the equivalent video of a white guy getting shot and killed in the back by a South Carolina officer?
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There's no controversy in that. Media can't fan flames with something like that. Pretty easy google search finds this one...which no one has heard about. http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zachary-hammond-police-shooting-20150804-htmlstory.html

 
All that kneeling ignores the real cause of soaring black homicides

The FBI released its official crime tally for 2016 on Monday, and the data flies in the face of the rhetoric that professional athletes rehearsed in revived Black Lives Matter protests over the weekend.

Nearly 900 additional blacks were killed in 2016 compared with 2015, bringing the black homicide victim total to 7,881. Those 7,881 “black bodies,” in the parlance of Ta-Nehisi Coates, are 1,305 more than the number of white victims (which in this case includes most Hispanics) for the same period, though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population.

The increase in black homicides last year comes on top of a previous 900-victim increase between 2014 and 2015.

Who is killing these black victims? Not whites, and not the police, but other blacks.

In 2016, the police fatally shot 233 blacks, the vast majority armed and dangerous, according to the Washington Post. The paper categorized only 16 black male victims of police shootings as “unarmed.” That classification masks assaults against officers and violent resistance to arrest.

Contrary to the Black Lives Matter narrative, the police have much more to fear from black males than black males have to fear from the police. In 2015, a police officer was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was to be killed by a police officer.

Black males have made up 42 percent of all cop-killers over the last decade, though they are only 6 percent of the population. That 18.5 ratio undoubtedly worsened in 2016, in light of the 53 percent increase in gun murders of officers — committed vastly and disproportionately by black males.

Among all homicide suspects whose race was known, white killers of blacks numbered only 243.

Violent crime has now risen by a significant amount for two consecutive years. The total number of violent crimes rose 4.1 percent in 2016, and estimated homicides rose 8.6 percent.

In 2015, violent crime rose by nearly 4 percent and estimated homicides by nearly 11 percent. The last time violence rose two years in a row was 2005-06.

The reason for the current increase is what I have called the Ferguson Effect. Cops are backing off of proactive policing in high-crime minority neighborhoods, and criminals are becoming emboldened.

Having been told incessantly by politicians, the media and Black Lives Matter activists that they are bigoted for getting out of their cars and questioning someone loitering on a known drug corner at 2 a.m., many officers are instead just driving by.

Such stops are discretionary; cops don’t have to make them. And when political elites demonize the police for just such proactive policing, we shouldn’t be surprised when cops get the message and do less of it.

Seventy-two percent of the nation’s officers say that they and their colleagues are now less willing to stop and question suspicious persons, according to a Pew Research poll released in January 2017. The reason is the persistent anti-cop climate.

Four studies came out in 2016 alone rebutting the charge that police shootings are racially biased. If there is a bias in police shootings, it works in favor of blacks and against whites. That truth has not stopped the ongoing demonization of the police — including, now, by many of the country’s ignorant professional athletes.

The toll will be felt, as always, in the inner city, by the thousands of law-abiding people there who desperately want more police protection.

From City Journal, where Heather Mac Donald is a contributing editor.
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Hawkeye21 said:
So America is a night club with long lines, strict bouncers and velvet rope.  Are there people doing blow in the bathrooms too?
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Yes.

And they also have sex in the stalls (only to be thrown out of the club). And Trump voters keep getting duped by the transgenders.

 
MaxThreshold said:
Sure we do - on your own time.  When you're representing an employer it's not so cut and dried.  The NFL has every right to step in and say "Knock that stupid #### off" if it affects their overall product.
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Sure they do. But the President of the United States has no business trying to get them to do it. Much like the FBI who followed suspected Communists during the McCarthy era, causing them to be fired from Hollywood and the universities, this is wrongful interference by the government.

If YOU Max want to start a boycott of the NFL, fine. You're a private citizen. But Trump should not be doing this.

 
timschochet said:
Sure they do. But the President of the United States has no business trying to get them to do it. Much like the FBI who followed suspected Communists during the McCarthy era, causing them to be fired from Hollywood and the universities, this is wrongful interference by the government.

If YOU Max want to start a boycott of the NFL, fine. You're a private citizen. But Trump should not be doing this.
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Comparing Trump to McCarthy is ten times worse than my Douglas/Moore comparison this morning.  

 
Yes, Black on Black violence continues to be a big problem. I don't see why we can't discuss it, but also discuss the very real problem of police killing too many young black men. Why does it always have to be either-or?

 
rockaction said:
Comparing Trump to McCarthy is ten times worse than my Douglas/Moore comparison this morning.  
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Not at all. In fact, McCarthy is probably the only American politician in history who can reasonably be compared to Trump.

Some people have mentioned George Wallace, but Wallace was an overt segregationist, which Trump is not. McCarthy is the only guy I can think of who deliberately attempted to divide the public, who talked complete nonsense but had his base believe it, much like Trump does. The two men are strikingly similar in so many ways (and Saints in Dome has pointed out that this may not be a coincidence, since they have a link in Roy Cohn.)

 
HellToupee said:
In 2015, a police officer was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was to be killed by a police officer.
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This is an example of how statistics can be used in different ways to tell a different story. Below is the quote from the WaPo opinion piece written by Heather Mac Donald:

And police officers are at greater risk from blacks than unarmed blacks are from police officers. If we accept at face value The Post’s typology of “unarmed” victims, which I discussed yesterday, the per capita rate of officers being feloniously killed is 45 times higher than the rate at which unarmed black males are killed by cops. And an officer’s chance of getting killed by a black assailant is 18.5 times higher than the chance of an unarmed black getting killed by a cop.

(The 36 unarmed black male victims of police shootings in 2015 measured against the total black male population [nearly 19 million in mid-2014, per the Census Bureau] amounts to a per capita rate of 0.0000018 unarmed fatalities by police. By comparison, 52 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in 2015 while engaged in such duties as traffic stops and warrant service, according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund. The FBI counted nearly 628,000 full-time law enforcement officers in the United States in 2014. Assuming that the number of officers did not markedly increase in 2015, the per capita rate of officers being feloniously killed is 0.000082, or 45 times the rate at which unarmed black males are killed by cops. The Memorial Fund does not have data on the race of cop-killers in 2015, but applying the historical average over the last decade in which 40 percent of all cop-killers were black would yield 21 cops killed by blacks in 2015. An officer’s chance of getting killed by a black person is 0.000033, which is 18.5 times the chance of an unarmed black person getting killed by a cop. 
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So this number is using a ratio of unarmed black males being killed (36 in 2015) to 52 law enforcement officers (she does not state that they were killed by black males, and other sources say 42 total were killed by gunfire in 2015, with no racial distinction, while 52 were killed in automobile accidents). To get her ratios, she compares the deaths of unarmed black males to the entire black male population, and does the same for police officers. Considering the job of a police officer, of course their job dictates that it would be more dangerous than not being a police officer.

In my other research, police officers have killed over 900 people a year the past couple of years, while cops killed in duty has been closer to 50. 

Sources:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/19/academic-research-on-police-shootings-and-race/?utm_term=.159ed7a8c8ac#comments

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/29/461402091/number-of-police-officers-killed-by-gunfire-fell-14-percent-in-2015-study-says

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297

 
MaxThreshold said:
Well, it's clear from your post that at the very least you believe it's NOT America.
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What about us crazies that think certain aspects of the USA are the best in the world, but others aren't and seek to improve them?

 
timschochet said:
Not at all. In fact, McCarthy is probably the only American politician in history who can reasonably be compared to Trump.

Some people have mentioned George Wallace, but Wallace was an overt segregationist, which Trump is not. McCarthy is the only guy I can think of who deliberately attempted to divide the public, who talked complete nonsense but had his base believe it, much like Trump does. The two men are strikingly similar in so many ways (and Saints in Dome has pointed out that this may not be a coincidence, since they have a link in Roy Cohn.)
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And comparisons like this cheapen the damage of McCarthy's legacy.  

 
timschochet said:
Sure they do. But the President of the United States has no business trying to get them to do it. Much like the FBI who followed suspected Communists during the McCarthy era, causing them to be fired from Hollywood and the universities, this is wrongful interference by the government.

If YOU Max want to start a boycott of the NFL, fine. You're a private citizen. But Trump should not be doing this.
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Agreed...he should have just shut his mouth and had the IRS do the work for him...

 
MaxThreshold said:
I have.

If a person can't say that America is the greatest country in the world right off the bat, then it's pretty clear that they don't think it is.
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I always find this kind of crap silly.

I certainly don't think America is the greatest country in the world.  And I would say most of the developed world outside of America agrees with that.   

But why does it have to be the "greatest"?  As long as its pretty f'n good, who cares?

 
hxperson said:
I always find this kind of crap silly.

I certainly don't think America is the greatest country in the world.  And I would say most of the developed world outside of America agrees with that.   

But why does it have to be the "greatest"?  As long as its pretty f'n good, who cares?
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I bet you support participation trophies.

 
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