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It's TOTALLY the title of the thread.  Here's why:  Over the last year or so I finally figured out that we don't actually care about gun violence.  When I say "we" I mean everyone, generally.  But als

So I have never gotten too deep into gun conversations here, mostly because guns are as close to religion in the US as you can get. I'm decidedly pro 2nd Amendment, but I also recognize that was

I would love to see civil and criminal liability attached to gun owners as well as shooters. If your gun is used in the commission of a crime, you're responsible unless you can show that the gun was o

13 hours ago, -fish- said:

Focus on criminals!

4 year old shot himself and a sleeping woman when he found a loaded gun and fired it.   Safe storage would have prevented it.  Oh, and the irresponsible gun owner?  He may be charged.   

Hint for SC:  That means he's a criminal.  

The only way to stop this was a good guy with a gun. :shrug:

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13 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

You have admitted in this thread that this is not the case, and the weapons do matter.  

 

matter how ?

its true, if society allowed military weapons and criminals got them in their hands ... the damage could be greater.

is that the goal? instead of stopping these people simply to reduce the damage they do ? because I want to stop them so they do NO damage

so I disagree that this liberal idea of imposing more laws and rules and bans and restrictions that only target law abiding people is the solution ............. that's not how we as a society normally address problems is it ? common sense gun laws - we have them .......... to further reduce violence we need exceptionally hard penalties for violent gun crimes, we need more red flag laws and intervention before these people act .... we need to stop the drugs and domestic violence

 

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14 hours ago, -fish- said:

Focus on criminals!

4 year old shot himself and a sleeping woman when he found a loaded gun and fired it.   Safe storage would have prevented it.  Oh, and the irresponsible gun owner?  He may be charged.   

Hint for SC:  That means he's a criminal.  

that's horrible

I know you want to criminalize parents when bad things happen .... only when a gun is involved. All the other times kids die or are severely harmed that are a result of parental decisions ... do you want to criminalize in those instances too ?   I knows it awful when kids die, when kids get hurt .... I've not lost a child but I've been around it, my kids have never been severely hurt, but I've been around it. I believe in parental responsibility .... I do not believe the Govt should dictate everything in our homes and private lives.

I don't think the Govt should control how we swim in pool or jump on trampolines, store the poisons in our homes or knives or alcohol. I don't think the Govt should tell us when we can let kids ride bicycles or ATV's on our property. I don't think the Govt should dictate how we store a weapon either. All those things result in injuries and deaths ....  and that responsibility falls on the parents and its horrible when they have to deal with it ................ but the Govt doesn't need involved in it IMO

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

have they ? which countries ? lets discuss them

We already have.  We tried to talk about mass shootings in Australia, and you brought in a link about mass killings, essentially none of which involved guns.  You tried to talk about Londons knife problem, then we realized how few casualties we were talking about.  Not sure what else you want to talk about.  

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13 hours ago, -fish- said:

The fact that he uses it wrong is pretty funny though.  

its actually a pretty good one

we take something that is used in human deaths (alcohol / guns) ...... and we go hard after a sub-category of those somethings (Bud Light / AR15's) ............. and try to convince others how great of an impact it'll be to (ban Bud light to stop deaths) or to (ban AR15's to stop deaths) 

when in reality ......... neither is going to have much of an impact at all on deaths caused by alcohol / guns 

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13 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

we need to stop the drugs and domestic violence

 

You keep posting this as well, but imo are 100% for a party that makes these issues worse as well.  

Maybe its lost in all the back and forth, but all I see you talk about as far as these go is harsher punishments, not addressing anything before the crime.  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

We already have.  We tried to talk about mass shootings in Australia, and you brought in a link about mass killings, essentially none of which involved guns.  You tried to talk about Londons knife problem, then we realized how few casualties we were talking about.  Not sure what else you want to talk about.  

Australia - brilliant !

did you know they've had MORE mass killings after the gun bans than before? 

did you know they have more guns now than before and something like 300,000 estimated illegal guns in AUS ?

 

so you said why have gun bans worked so well and used AUS for example .......... and in fact, its not stopped mass killings at all, people just use something else or go ahead and use guns anyway. the root cause (the criminals and people with issues) wasn't attacked, an inanimate object (guns) were and it failed

 

Brazil loosened firearm laws recently. will it work ? in a few years we'll see

https://www.wsj.com/articles/brazil-has-an-idea-to-fix-rampant-gun-violence-more-guns-11546315200

 

Brazil racked up nearly 64,000 homicides in 2017, the highest overall number in the world. Over 70% of those were committed with firearms, widely available to criminals on the black market. Here in São Paulo, a megalopolis of 12 million people, over a quarter of residents say they have been held up at gunpoint at some moment in their lives, according to a study this year by the city’s business school Insper.

“It’s not fair, we’ve become hostages in our own country,” said Mr. Sotero Júnior. “We can’t take it anymore.”

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime.

 

“All the hoodlums already have guns, it’s only the good guys who don’t!” Mr. Bolsonaro said in a radio interview earlier this year. He said Saturday that he plans to issue a decree allowing all Brazilians without criminal records to own firearms.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

Australia - brilliant !

did you know they've had MORE mass killings after the gun bans than before? 

did you know they have more guns now than before and something like 300,000 estimated illegal guns in AUS ?

 

so you said why have gun bans worked so well and used AUS for example .......... and in fact, its not stopped mass killings at all, people just use something else or go ahead and use guns anyway. the root cause (the criminals and people with issues) wasn't attacked, an inanimate object (guns) were and it failed

 

Brazil loosened firearm laws recently. will it work ? in a few years we'll see

https://www.wsj.com/articles/brazil-has-an-idea-to-fix-rampant-gun-violence-more-guns-11546315200

 

Brazil racked up nearly 64,000 homicides in 2017, the highest overall number in the world. Over 70% of those were committed with firearms, widely available to criminals on the black market. Here in São Paulo, a megalopolis of 12 million people, over a quarter of residents say they have been held up at gunpoint at some moment in their lives, according to a study this year by the city’s business school Insper.

“It’s not fair, we’ve become hostages in our own country,” said Mr. Sotero Júnior. “We can’t take it anymore.”

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime.

 

“All the hoodlums already have guns, it’s only the good guys who don’t!” Mr. Bolsonaro said in a radio interview earlier this year. He said Saturday that he plans to issue a decree allowing all Brazilians without criminal records to own firearms.

 

 

Like I said, we talked about it and Australia before, and the differences in the cutoff they used for their criteria or mass death.  It was also brought up that nobody claimed it would stop all killings, but you keep posting about that too.  

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

You keep posting this as well, but imo are 100% for a party that makes these issues worse as well.  

Maybe its lost in all the back and forth, but all I see you talk about as far as these go is harsher punishments, not addressing anything before the crime.  

that's arguable ... that the GOP refusing to accept recreational drug use and a drug using culture is contributing .... I disagree that it is, but its arguable

before the crimes .... red flag laws, very valuable. Hotline reporting - valuable. FBI stopped that potential coast guard wacko, right? valuable. There have been multiple school shootings stopped with pro-active reporting.  I'm for exceptional harsh gun violence crimes and liberal use of death penalty too.   I think domestic violence needs to have way more harsh penalty. 

I think more people need to be self defensive - I do not believe criminals should be the ones striking fear in to citizens .... I believe the criminals need to be afraid of us, the law abiding citizens of this country.  I very much approve of stand your ground laws and allowing people to carry weapons for self defense. 

in cases like Nikolas Cruz and Christopher Hasson ..... one was ignored over and over and the signs were all there on what he was going to do, and with the other, intervention happened before an act was carried out.

 

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

Like I said, we talked about it and Australia before, and the differences in the cutoff they used for their criteria or mass death.  It was also brought up that nobody claimed it would stop all killings, but you keep posting about that too.  

clearly is didn't stop mass killings ......... the people just used other means which is what we'd see here in the USA

I believe KCitons has posted links to the fact some high gun control countries have high violence, like Brazil, and some have no violence .... meaning there is far far more at play than just availability of a certain kind of weapon when it comes to murder/violence

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

that's arguable ... that the GOP refusing to accept recreational drug use and a drug using culture is contributing .... I disagree that it is, but its arguable

before the crimes .... red flag laws, very valuable. Hotline reporting - valuable. FBI stopped that potential coast guard wacko, right? valuable. There have been multiple school shootings stopped with pro-active reporting.  I'm for exceptional harsh gun violence crimes and liberal use of death penalty too.   I think domestic violence needs to have way more harsh penalty. 

I think more people need to be self defensive - I do not believe criminals should be the ones striking fear in to citizens .... I believe the criminals need to be afraid of us, the law abiding citizens of this country.  I very much approve of stand your ground laws and allowing people to carry weapons for self defense. 

in cases like Nikolas Cruz and Christopher Hasson ..... one was ignored over and over and the signs were all there on what he was going to do, and with the other, intervention happened before an act was carried out.

 

Still don't see much in there about stopping gang violence or domestic violence. 

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51 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

that's horrible

I know you want to criminalize parents when bad things happen .... only when a gun is involved. All the other times kids die or are severely harmed that are a result of parental decisions ... do you want to criminalize in those instances too ?   I knows it awful when kids die, when kids get hurt .... I've not lost a child but I've been around it, my kids have never been severely hurt, but I've been around it. I believe in parental responsibility .... I do not believe the Govt should dictate everything in our homes and private lives.

I don't think the Govt should control how we swim in pool or jump on trampolines, store the poisons in our homes or knives or alcohol. I don't think the Govt should tell us when we can let kids ride bicycles or ATV's on our property. I don't think the Govt should dictate how we store a weapon either. All those things result in injuries and deaths ....  and that responsibility falls on the parents and its horrible when they have to deal with it ................ but the Govt doesn't need involved in it IMO

 

 

Abusing a child is criminal.  Parental neglect is criminal.   Leaving a gun out for a child to shoot themselves is criminal. 

Safe storage laws save lives and prevent gun theft.   Apparently your objection is that it would make law abiding citizens store their guns.  So what?   If you aren't securely storing your guns, you're too irresponsible to own one and you're a danger to society. 

Beating the drum of "no gun laws because they don't target criminals" is incredibly short-sighted and just plain wrong.   The gun owner in this case will be charged with a crime.   All irresponsible gun ownership that endangers others should be criminalized.  

Guns aren't trampolines or purple dildos.   They are weapons, that have the single intended purpose of killing things.  Keeping them secured so that children don't shoot themselves should be a no-brainer, but gun worshipers like you just refuse to acknowledge the facts.  Honestly, the more I hear your positions the stricter I think gun laws should be.    

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48 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Abusing a child is criminal.  Parental neglect is criminal.   Leaving a gun out for a child to shoot themselves is criminal. 

Safe storage laws save lives and prevent gun theft.   Apparently your objection is that it would make law abiding citizens store their guns.  So what?   If you aren't securely storing your guns, you're too irresponsible to own one and you're a danger to society. 

Beating the drum of "no gun laws because they don't target criminals" is incredibly short-sighted and just plain wrong.   The gun owner in this case will be charged with a crime.   All irresponsible gun ownership that endangers others should be criminalized.  

Guns aren't trampolines or purple dildos.   They are weapons, that have the single intended purpose of killing things.  Keeping them secured so that children don't shoot themselves should be a no-brainer, but gun worshipers like you just refuse to acknowledge the facts.  Honestly, the more I hear your positions the stricter I think gun laws should be.    

Does the same apply to alcohol. Would you be willing to adopt laws that require parents to lock up their liquor? The first beer I ever had was taken from my Dad's refrigerator. I'm sure there are lots of kids that snipe alcohol from their own homes. 

 

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6 hours ago, the rover said:

Australia has zero mass shootings since 1996.  Yes, it has more guns—but less gun owners.  The gun worshipers have just expanded their arsenals.   

easily proven to be false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Shootings.  We’re talking about guns.  

Why do you always lie?  You really need to get your talking points straight.  Maybe a trip to Moscow, comrade?   The NRA would be sad that you’re making them look bad.

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5 hours ago, -fish- said:

Abusing a child is criminal.  Parental neglect is criminal. 

abusing a child is criminal yes

parental neglect is something that has to be proven in a court of law

is it neglect to not have guns 100% safely secured? is it neglect to have poisons not 100% safely secured? is it neglect to not have nets on trampolines or to allow kids to swim in the pool alone?  is it neglect to feed kids sugary foods and allow obesity to strike at an early age ?

Look I'm all for people storing guns properly and out of reach of kids. Doing so would save a few hundred kids lives every year I agree. But its parents responsibility to do it - not the Fed Govt to try and regulate anymore so than it is for the Govt to be involved in the other things that kill kids and hurt kids in the homes. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you didn't click the link did you ?

The link about “massacres” that showed vehicular attacks and knifings?  Do you read what you post?

i guess you mean the two instances of domestic violence that involved guns?  Yeah, those are bad.  But that’s not what we’re talking about when we refer to mass shootings.  

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22 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

abusing a child is criminal yes

parental neglect is something that has to be proven in a court of law

is it neglect to not have guns 100% safely secured? is it neglect to have poisons not 100% safely secured? is it neglect to not have nets on trampolines or to allow kids to swim in the pool alone?  is it neglect to feed kids sugary foods and allow obesity to strike at an early age ?

Look I'm all for people storing guns properly and out of reach of kids. Doing so would save a few hundred kids lives every year I agree. But its parents responsibility to do it - not the Fed Govt to try and regulate anymore so than it is for the Govt to be involved in the other things that kill kids and hurt kids in the homes. 

 

 

 

Nope.  Leaving a gun out where a kid gets shot or it gets stolen is a criminal act.  If you can’t secure your guns you shouldn’t have them.   You’re a danger to society.

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22 minutes ago, the rover said:

i guess you mean the two instances of domestic violence that involved guns?  Yeah, those are bad.  But that’s not what we’re talking about when we refer to mass shootings.  

so now you admit lying - well at least we've established that .... and now, we'll see that there are more than just 2 instances and you can google more if you'd like

point is - AUS gun laws were hardened, mass murders still happened as did gun crimes when the entire picture is looked at. Understand too, AUS never had mass murders any more so before the gun bans than after really, and even the homicide rate overall wasn't even but a few hundred a year. Its an interesting country/laws etc to look at for sure, but it sucks to use them as a gun ban success story 

 

Osmington shooting11 May 2018Osmington, Western Australia70A murder-suicide, with three adults and four children killed. A grandfather shot his four grandchildren at their home, his daughter, his wife, and then himself.[26]

2014 Sydney hostage crisis15 - 16 December 2014Sydney, NSW31Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage twenty customers and eight employees of a Lindt chocolate café located at Martin Place for 16 hours. The NSW Police Tactical Operations Unit shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the exchange, one person was hit by police bullet fragments, causing accidental death.

Wedderburn shooting23 October 2014Wedderburn, Victoria30A mass shooting and siege by Ian Francis Jamieson who shot a husband and wife, after stabbing their son to death.

Hunt family murders9 September 2014Lockhart, New South Wales50A mass shooting and familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself.

2011 Hectorville siege29 April 2011Hectorville, South Australia33Siege attack where Anthony Carbo murdered three people and injured three more including two police officers.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, the rover said:

Nope.  Leaving a gun out where a kid gets shot or it gets stolen is a criminal act.  If you can’t secure your guns you shouldn’t have them.   You’re a danger to society.

each state has their own laws on it - but IMO blaming parents for leaving one type of thing that can harm  kids over any other type of thing  that harms kids is cherry picking for political agenda and nothing more. Either blame parents for ALL of it equally or don't at all. I leave parental rights where they are - with parents - the Govt doesn't need to be there

10 minutes ago, the rover said:

Again, so desperate to defend guns that killing kids or putting them in the hands of criminals doesn’t matter.   Your positions are actually disgusting as a human being.

defending EVERYTHING - not just guns ......  and if a criminal breaks into your home YOU fish/rover are the victim. You're not an accessory or a criminal for whatever that person who stole from you does with whatever items they stole from you. I'm sorry - that's just crazy. 

be consistent - apply your logic and reasoning to everything else, see where it takes you

I highly doubt if I broke into your house, stole your car keys, stole your car and ran into a family of 4 killing them that you'd want to be arrested for allowing me to steal your car. I doubt you'd accept responsibility, am I right? Although, you could have put your keys in a safe and made it to where I couldn't steal the car. That's your fault, right ? 

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33 minutes ago, the rover said:

People that defend gun violence should be red flagged for being mentally ill.

nobody defended gun violence - nobody

Edited by Stealthycat
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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

That was the exact link that you posted months ago that got shot down (pun intended).  You still seems to think that it has something to do with proving Australia's laws haven't prevented mass shootings.  

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

so now you admit lying - well at least we've established that .... and now, we'll see that there are more than just 2 instances and you can google more if you'd like

point is - AUS gun laws were hardened, mass murders still happened as did gun crimes when the entire picture is looked at. Understand too, AUS never had mass murders any more so before the gun bans than after really, and even the homicide rate overall wasn't even but a few hundred a year. Its an interesting country/laws etc to look at for sure, but it sucks to use them as a gun ban success story 

 

Osmington shooting11 May 2018Osmington, Western Australia70A murder-suicide, with three adults and four children killed. A grandfather shot his four grandchildren at their home, his daughter, his wife, and then himself.[26]

Domestic violence

2014 Sydney hostage crisis15 - 16 December 2014Sydney, NSW31Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage twenty customers and eight employees of a Lindt chocolate café located at Martin Place for 16 hours. The NSW Police Tactical Operations Unit shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the exchange, one person was hit by police bullet fragments, causing accidental death.

Not a mass shooting

Wedderburn shooting23 October 2014Wedderburn, Victoria30A mass shooting and siege by Ian Francis Jamieson who shot a husband and wife, after stabbing their son to death.

2 people.  Not a mass shooting.

Hunt family murders9 September 2014Lockhart, New South Wales50A mass shooting and familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself.

Domestic violence

2011 Hectorville siege29 April 2011Hectorville, South Australia33Siege attack where Anthony Carbo murdered three people and injured three more including two police officers.

Was this even a gun?   In any case, not a mass shooting

those are all your examples since 1996.   you really just can't stop lying.   its pathetic.   I truly believe you are mentally ill and should be red flagged.  get help.

 

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

nobody defended gun violence - nobody

you do.  every day.  you claim only criminals are responsible, but when a kid shoots himself, you want to avoid the responsibility of gun owners to secure their guns.  

your positions are disgusting.  

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

each state has their own laws on it - but IMO blaming parents for leaving one type of thing that can harm  kids over any other type of thing  that harms kids is cherry picking for political agenda and nothing more. Either blame parents for ALL of it equally or don't at all. I leave parental rights where they are - with parents - the Govt doesn't need to be there

defending EVERYTHING - not just guns ......  and if a criminal breaks into your home YOU fish/rover are the victim. You're not an accessory or a criminal for whatever that person who stole from you does with whatever items they stole from you. I'm sorry - that's just crazy. 

be consistent - apply your logic and reasoning to everything else, see where it takes you

I highly doubt if I broke into your house, stole your car keys, stole your car and ran into a family of 4 killing them that you'd want to be arrested for allowing me to steal your car. I doubt you'd accept responsibility, am I right? Although, you could have put your keys in a safe and made it to where I couldn't steal the car. That's your fault, right ? 

if I left the car running with the keys in it I would and should be responsible for the foreseeable damages caused by my stolen car.  If I left a weapon designed to kill people unsecured and a child got injured or killed by it, or it was stolen and used in a crime, I should be held criminally responsible

why do you think gun owners can endanger others without consequence?

do society a favor.  stay in your bunker stroking your guns.  

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3 minutes ago, -fish- said:

if I left the car running with the keys in it I would and should be responsible for the foreseeable damages caused by my stolen car.  If I left a weapon designed to kill people unsecured and a child got injured or killed by it, or it was stolen and used in a crime, I should be held criminally responsible

why do you think gun owners can endanger others without consequence?

do society a favor.  stay in your bunker stroking your guns.  

Since you brought up cars. How about leaving alcohol unlocked?

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50 minutes ago, -fish- said:

those are all your examples since 1996.   you really just can't stop lying.   its pathetic.   I truly believe you are mentally ill and should be red flagged.  get help.

 

And that was exactly all the stuff that was brought up months ago when he posted that link about the Aussie mass deaths, along with the fact that nobody was claiming that we would see 0 killing, but he keeps throwing that in these types of posts too.  

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

And that was exactly all the stuff that was brought up months ago when he posted that link about the Aussie mass deaths, along with the fact that nobody was claiming that we would see 0 killing, but he keeps throwing that in these types of posts too.  

seriously, I never understood how deluded the fringes of gun worship are.  I have plenty of friends that own guns, but nobody is like this.   just the NRA's wet dream.

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3 hours ago, -fish- said:

you do.  every day.  you claim only criminals are responsible, but when a kid shoots himself, you want to avoid the responsibility of gun owners to secure their guns.  

your positions are disgusting.  

you are very a very confused person - not once have I supported gun violence or any kids shooting themselves or anything like that. 

you ignore over and over all the things that happen and cause deaths to focus only on political gun agenda - your position isn't consistent, rational, reasonable or logical

I support parental rights - and if in a home knives are not locked up, pools not locked, trampolines have no nets, ladders aren't locked away, poisons not locked away ... anything that causes death in home, right ?  ... that's the choices of the parents and the homes not the Fed Govt

Do you want laws shackling the above? 

I have to stay consistent and also say guns ............ I absolutely encourage locking up guns in homes, especially with small children. I do not demand it nor do I want Fed Govt to demand it either.  We live in a free society .... responsibility and choices are on citizens and it sucks when things go wrong/bad but that's a cost of living isn't it ?

if human death were your concern - there are far far better ways to save lives in the USA. Ban smoking would save what, 500,000 ?

if gun violence were a concern, you'd lobby hard to stop these criminals because law abiding gun owners are no threat to you at all

 

but instead, every law and rule and restriction you suggest targets legal gun owners - its very clear the agenda and it has nothing to do with saving lives or stopping crime. That's clear

 

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

And that was exactly all the stuff that was brought up months ago when he posted that link about the Aussie mass deaths, along with the fact that nobody was claiming that we would see 0 killing, but he keeps throwing that in these types of posts too.  

did you look the deaths/killings in AUS up ? the gun violence? the mass killings before and after the gun ban ?

its not what anti-gun zealots say it is - AUS never had a bad problem with violence - heck 25 million people and they only have a few hundred murders every year right?  

 

if ban guns = way less gun crime, why hasn't that worked in Brazil ? 

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4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

did you look the deaths/killings in AUS up ? the gun violence? the mass killings before and after the gun ban ?

its not what anti-gun zealots say it is - AUS never had a bad problem with violence - heck 25 million people and they only have a few hundred murders every year right?  

 

if ban guns = way less gun crime, why hasn't that worked in Brazil ? 

Yes, SC- this is the same conversation we had a few months ago about the very same link.  

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