Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Probably late to this party but...
Russia used NRA to help Trump. Neat organization you got there, Stealthy.
Russia used NRA to help Trump. Neat organization you got there, Stealthy.
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USA Shootings (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter randall146
- Start date
Dickies
Footballguy
People in this country absolutely worship guns, which is why it's so difficult to institute any meaningful regulations surrounding them.
Honest, law-abiding gun owners and their guns account for probably 99%+ of all gun deaths in this country. Again they are law abiding until they aren't, which leads to my next point....
Exceptionally few people use them wrong? AR-15s are literally designed to kill people, so I would argue that they are using them correctly. Love how your #1 benefit listed is "shooting sports". Because pew pewing holes into paper targets is a real value add to society.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
as I posted - as far back as 2016 when no minorities ran on the Democratic presidential ticket - and the links showing how far blacks fell under Democratic ran presidency 2008-2016Who they ARE or what they've been in the past? Either way, you're wrong on both. I see both groups for what they ARE and what they have been and I know how things have changed. That's how I know if we take the person you present yourself as on these boards and tried to fit that person into the politics of those times in the past, you'd have been a Democrat. It's crystal clear
Stealthycat
Footballguy
as I posted - as far back as 2016 when no minorities ran on the Democratic presidential ticket - and the links showing how far blacks fell under Democratic ran presidency 2008-2016Who they ARE or what they've been in the past? Either way, you're wrong on both. I see both groups for what they ARE and what they have been and I know how things have changed. That's how I know if we take the person you present yourself as on these boards and tried to fit that person into the politics of those times in the past, you'd have been a Democrat. It's crystal clear
Stealthycat
Footballguy
lets talk about them for a minute
World Peace and Unification Sanctuary - diverse religious group, I don't know how many members, 1,000 ? 2,000??
60 years its been there right? They believe guns are the rods or iron mentioned in the Bible ?
How many crimes have they committed? Shootings? Murder? none? zero?
Are those kinds of people NOT who we need in society? Law abiding, does nothing wrong, helps people through their church etc? Why would anyone NOT like those people are neighbors?
BTW
specifically said they do NOT worship a material object and while I'd probably disagree with their beliefs in general ..... I would have no problems with them at all, would you? They have and show nothing that indicates they are any danger at all. In fact i bet that church has done a lot of GOOD things if you looked and searched
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you just made the comparison exactly ....... law abiding people having beer and driving is the same as law abiding people carrying a gun and driving. Neither are a threat to anyone. If you hammer back 6 beer's and keep driving, you're a threat. If I pull my gun out and shoot into a crowd, I'm a threat. We've both broke laws and went from law abiding to criminal
if a kid carrying a pocket knife didn't take it out and stab someone there would be zero issues - its bizarre to me even at 48 that kids can't carry pocket knives in school or have guns in the racks of their trucks in the parking lot. Neither of those items have changed - we carried them for decades. People have changed
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Except that person is not drinking beer with the intent to kill others, in most cases. In some cases a person may actually try to be even more careful since they are under the influence and do not want to get a DUI. Once a person decides to use that gun it's already too late.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
there is no worship or a gun, a knife, a cast iron skillet, a set of tires etc - that's made up.
No, criminals make up 99% of the gun deaths. A full 2/3 of the non-suicide gun deaths are associated with illegal drugs and illegal domestic violence. I think a great % of that other 1/3 is mental illness that has either been diagnosed or has not been - but either way, its NOT sane and normal to want to kill other people. It isn't.
AR15's are a semi-auto gun, nothing more or less than the other 200 million semi-auto guns out there right now. If law abiding gun owners were such a threat, you'd see thousands killed everyday, NRA events would be a blood bath etc. That doesn't happen because it isn't real.
I think a lot of things are a waste in society. Smoking #1 and it kills 450,000 each year - abortion which leads to 850,000 deaths ............ stop both of those and you just saved 1.3 million lives
like the Boulder man said, if we can save just one life, right ?
He finds it bizarre that kids can't carry knives in school. Take some time and wrap your mind around that.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
there is truth to that - intentionally drinking and driving drunk knowing intentionally what can happen doesn't stop 12,500 dead people every year does it? and the families of those dead people don't feel much less pain from knowing that laws were broken that led to the death of their loved ones
Stop the people intentionally wanting to hurt other people - do that and it doesn't matter HOW they want to achieve their goals does it? That's the core problem, these people wanting to hurt others.
If I could do it, with a wave of my hand and God power, I'd put a gun in the hand of every woman today who would be raped, every person who would be killed and I'd give them accuracy and bullets to kill the sonsa#####es who'd wish to do them harm and I'd do that every day, week and month until those exceptionally few in society realize they're going to die if they try to hurt other people.
Unrealistic - but we can try to do something similar by enforcing our existing laws hard, getting people who want to know how to use guns and carry, get them the permits to do so. Arm the schools just like we arm federal buildings. Fast swift penalties for people like Nikolas Cruz - he should be dead, right now IMO. Stop glamouring shootings on TV, get Hollywood to stop showing automatic rifles in every movie and killing killing killing.
Society in general LOVES violence with guns, we see it in movies, music, video games ........... how do you feel about the value to society all those things add? because society CAN be conditioned, kids learn from what they see, hear , watch and interact with don't they ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
they did for 100 years with almost never an issue
what changed with knives to now have a massive problem ? nothing ...... the kids changed, which is the entire point you missed.
what has changed thayman in the past decade or two to now have this massive problem ?
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Jesus, man. If you had that power why wouldn't you just make it so people don't commit such terrible acts instead of giving everyone a gun? I know it would stop some crimes but it would also lead to more accidental deaths. Arming everyone would just cause a bigger #### storm. There's a reason why in the wild west they outlawed guns in city limits.
-fish-
Footballguy
yes, because 99% of the time when you kill someone with a gun, it's a criminal act.
100% of gun deaths are caused by gun users.
You know who has a 0% gun death rate? People who don't use guns.
The Commish
Footballguy
So wait....you are defining the party as a whole based on the last 10 years? I thought you were going with your "did you know the Democrats were the most racists ####### in the world back in 1500?" shtick. sorry....carry on. I'll enjoy watching you shove your goalposts around from one arbitrary criteria to another as people respond.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
And this, right here, is the entire disconnect in this argument.
"If I had the power of God, I'd.... give you a gun."
-fish-
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
And to answer this little gem....I think it did them a world of good long term. It showed those who were unaware that racism was alive and well in this country that it, indeed, is alive and well allowing us to address it and shame those who still hold those sorts of ideas.
-fish-
Footballguy
Trump seems to think it was pretty good, since he keeps pointing to the unemployment statistics for black Americans, which are a direct result of the Obama administration's policies.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
You will never be able to use argument to change the mind of someone who believes that freedom is found at the end of a gun barrel.
Dickies
Footballguy
And what were the criminals who used the guns to commit murder before they used the guns for that purpose? Law-abiding gun owners. You can't paint them with such a rosy picture and then completely separate out the ones that commit crimes.
You have a difficult time understanding nuance. I'm not saying in any way that everyone that legally owns a gun is going to go on a rampage., but we have to acknowledge that some of them will. When they do it's disastrous. We need real reform that goes beyond guns (mental health, drug treatment, education, etc), but we also need to heavily regulate guns themselves.
There are a lot of things that are a waste in society. You keep trying to divert the conversation to all these non-related topics. If you are so concerned with smoking, drunk driving, abortions, etc then start topics to discuss how we mitigate the harm these cause. This thread is about gun violence.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Hey, Parkland resource officer starts collecting his pension. $8,702 per month. Not too shabby.
KCitons
Footballguy
Do you only think this because you want the Amendment to be worded to prevent people from owning certain weapons?Hawkeye21 said:
Would you still want it changed if it said "A well regulated and documented Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms equal to those of their government, shall not be infringed"
How would you revise it?
Dickies
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
actually people who don't shoot other people have 0% gun death rates too
I'd argue people who commit justified gun shootings have a 0% rate too - they're saving their own lives or others by using their guns ........... where does that factor into the benefits of having guns in society?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you're moving the goal posts again
do you want to talk Democrats in the early 1800's slavery? early 1900's KKK? 1960's civil rights? 2016 election ? choose, we can talk about whatever time frame you'd like
Stealthycat
Footballguy
well points made, God power would just kill everyone who needs it I guess, right ?
the point was there is value in people having guns to defend themselves from rape, assault, murder, theft etc.
ya'll totally missed that .......... guns have great value, why doesn't anyone every mention that?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you think people wasn't aware of racism in 2006 ? seriously? we are more divided over race than in my lifetime ........ and its escalated in the last 10 years so if the argument is Obama cause great division and eroded any racial progression since the 70's I'd agree with that for sure
long term we don't know - but avoid looking at short term and what damage the Democrats did in the past 10 years huh ?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what were all criminals before they committed their first crime Dickies? law abiding citizens
I mean I don't know where you're going with this. When you say we a society need to heavily regulate the things that people do and/or use that causes death do you apply that to smoking, abortion, automobiles, drugs etc ? Its very valid to discuss, because if you DO apply that reasoning to guns and all the others, then you have a solid foundation and argument to present.
But I doubt you apply the same "heavily regulate it" to those things. I don't remember you saying, but I'm betting you don't own guns? Most people wanting to heavily regulate guns are not gun owners. Therefore its super easy for them to give up gun - they don't have them, right?
So its not about heavily regulating things that cause human death - its about heavily regulating things that doesn't impact you directly. Oh, impacts other people but hey, that's for them to deal with right? Super easy for me to ask for banning smoking, I don't smoke. Those here that do HATE the idea of banning smoking or heavily taxing it more etc. I'm all for banning opioids, people right here on this forum that use it for pain management and their addiction hate that idea, but me? I don't take them, easy for me to give them up right?
This is a harsh view but its been said before and it has merit.
We accept 37,000 dead people on US highways, every year. 2,000 under 16 years of age. Sure, we could really heavily regulate auto's and highways etc..... but truthfully, its worth everyone driving 70 mph and having freedoms to drive with that 37,000 dead people
450-500,000 smoking and tobacco deaths - but we don't highly regulate more so that society can smoke?
We accept 12,000 drunk driving deaths. Sure we could ban alcohol, really impose heavy regulations far above what we have .... but we keep what we have and accept 12,000 death to DUI because imposing harsh regulations on law abiding drivers and drinkers is too much.
850,000 abortions - we could heavily regulate that too down to only allowing for incest, rape and health of mother. 850,000 dead unborn babies is the price we have to not regulate abortions more isn't it ?
The above is not to shift the topic, its to say that human deaths is weighed against the benefits of things. Of the 35,000 gun deaths,around 12,000 are murders. Of those 12,000 murders, something like 2/3 are drug and domestic violence related.
4-5,000 other murders in the US every year lets say. Why isn't it simply the cost of having guns? Remember, guns are used many times every year to SAVE lives, they have value. I'm not saying strive for 0 gun deaths, nobody would say that just as nobody would say they don't want 0 DUI deaths, 0 abortions and 0 smoking deaths. We all want to get all the above numbers DOWN.
But passing laws that literally impacts tens of millions of legal law abiding citizens that also infringes on their Constitutional Right and also is arguable to not even have an impact at all on gun deaths is just something I cannot understand because it literally makes no sense at all especially when you add in that whats being targeted are guns used in 2% of all gun deaths and not even the #1 choice in mass shootings nor is the age groups targeted the ones doing the shootings nor are the accessories being targeted often used in gun deaths.
Its literally like banning red Ford Mustangs to stop drunk driving
Stealthycat
Footballguy
ask high Govt officials who are anti-gun but have people surrounding them with guns
sure - he big kick is who gets to decide who has guns and who doesn't and that's where the 2nd comes in and Founding Fathers understood it
Henry Ford
Footballguy
We are not more divided on race now than any time in your lifetime. The KKK was still publicly murdering people in the 1970s.
The Commish
Footballguy
The norm in my world is a guy who has 2-3 rifles and a couple different hand guns. The rifles are for hunting and the hand guns are for "fun" at the range. I do know one person who carries at all times and he has many more guns than the "norm". All these guys are responsible and lock their guns up. I've helped install more gun safes than I can count etc.
The Commish
Footballguy
Not moving anything. I simply misunderstood your muddled point. I'm perfectly content to watch your "yeah, but there have been no African Americans in the Presidential race on the Dem side since 2008" or whatever it is....carry on.....I'm interested to learn what point you think that makes about the party as a whole.
The Commish
Footballguy
Apparently not...not even you. If you think racism has "escalated" in the last 10 years you haven't been paying attention. You might see it more now, but it's always been there if you've taken 2 seconds to pay attention. This notion that is was minimal or less prior to Obama is absurd. It's been alive and well for centuries. That's the problem with covering it up or shoving it in a closet. Out of sight, out of mind <> elimination. While it's true that we had gotten good at sweeping it under the rug, ignoring it, shouting down racists etc, none of that changed the beliefs of the racists. They were still racist and fostering racist sentiment. Why does it SEEM more prevelent now? I offer two reasons. #1. A black man was President drawing out some who've been in the shadows for some time. #2. We have a President who those racists can relate to. That gives them courage to come out of the shadows. It's clear as day if you've been paying attention.....especially here in the south.
apalmer
Footballguy
Those who think we're more divided on race now than ever are generally those whose beliefs have been pushed further away from the mainstream. The number of people divided isn't any bigger (and is probably smaller), but the divide itself is bigger--the majority of the population was far less accepting of the KKK during Obama's presidency than they were in the 1970s. Trump is doing his best to rebuild the acceptance of racism and shrink that divide.
KCitons
Footballguy
You never mentioned shotguns? Not sure if that was an oversight.
Curious why you think 2-3 rifles for hunting is the norm and more than one handgun is acceptable? Does it matter what the number is, as long as the owner is responsible?
It just seems to me that we want to label someone who has X number of something as being unacceptable. Regardless of use or how responsible the person is with those items.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
You are a good man. Those things are heavy and very awkward to move through a house. I had a buddy that decided he would not even try. He just poured a concrete base with bolts embedded in it in his garage and we hefted his up onto that. Me, I got mine into the basement. If I sell the house it will likely remain down there, or I will have to hire some real muscle. I'm getting too old to move such things.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
If there is a line, by number of guns, for acceptable or not I suspect I am on the unacceptable side.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I think it should be easier to interpret. I would like if it described better what a well regulated military was. I don't think I want it to have wording about specific weapons, that would probably be too hard or cause too many issues. I think it's pretty obvious that civilians should not have access to certain weapons unless they are trained properly which is where a well regulated militia comes into play.
The Commish
Footballguy
I do have a couple friends who have shotguns for shooting skeet. That's my norm....what I know people to have based on my anecdotal life experiences. Personally, you can have 500 guns if you want them. I don't care as long as you're responsible. There are some that will attempt to make the argument that quantity of guns factors into your responsibility level. I don't think the quantity of weapons owned speaks to how responsible one is. If you own 50 guns that doesn't make you any more/less responsible than if you own 1.
The Commish
Footballguy
I could write a book on the "incidents" that come from dealing with those heavy summ-mum-ma-biotches!!!!! One story includes getting the safe up three flights of stairs only to have it fall through two stories a month later. I damn near peed myself when I got that phone call. Fortunately MOST of them either went down or stayed in the garage like you said.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Before I took mine down my basement stairs a took I moment to brace each riser in two spots and then I cut and placed 3/4 inch plywood for a ramp instead of going treadle to treadle. I figured that would spread out the load. 500 pounds of safe and 500+ pounds of men with me and my brother is a lot of weight for those risers to carry. I can easily see a safe dropping through a floor if there was any infirmity in any joist under it. I bet that makes one hell of a racket.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
that's your opinion that we are not more divided
I think we are as a nation - blacks and whites and civilians and police, Christians and muslims, men and women, rich and poor, straight and gay, the list goes on and on
the last decade has especially seen rifts and cracks across society as we as a country drift farther apart
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
that's your opinion - you don't know who harbors what racist sentiments and as equally as a white man can judge a black man, a black man can judge a white man too
judged skin color
if you see Obama as black I think that's racist. Why? He's not black, or white, he's both and to ignore his maternal side is to look only at his skin color and judge him. I think that's a massive problem to be honest.
I don't care who a remote group of racists relate to or not. They're fringe, nobody gives them a time of day unless its CNN and they'll drift into nothing with time. They only have courage when what they stand for is given power by those of us who allow it.
You can believe what you want on Trump, nothing he will do can change set minds I guess and that's just the way it is. I doubt in these 4 or 8 years the country will split more than it did in the 8 of Obama though.
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