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Conservatives, what do you actually want?


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21 hours ago, bostonfred said:

What do you want from government?  Be as specific as possible, especially about things that aren't current hot topics, or things that have to do with keeping your team in office.  

Simple.

All of the Democrats to leave for good.

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I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the Unit

Maybe. I've always described myself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, which I know people like bigbottom would tell you are incompatible at a basic level. It's great to think everyone sho

1)  I support lower taxes and smaller government.  Money is best spent by the people who earn it, not the government. 2) Support legal immigration only.  Oppose amnesty for those who enter the co

52 minutes ago, trident said:

Simple.

All of the Democrats to leave for good.

I am not sure if this was honest or just snarky but I'd prefer you leave this stuff for other threads.  If your only political beliefs are that your team is good and the other team is bad then you might want to consider whether you have considered the issues enough to cast a good vote.  

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13 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I am not sure if this was honest or just snarky but I'd prefer you leave this stuff for other threads.  If your only political beliefs are that your team is good and the other team is bad then you might want to consider whether you have considered the issues enough to cast a good vote.  

When I vote Republican, I know I just cast a good vote.

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On 7/11/2018 at 1:46 PM, bostonfred said:

What do you want from government?  Be as specific as possible, especially about things that aren't current hot topics, or things that have to do with keeping your team in office.  

I don't think you've gotten a formal conservative answer yet. 

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4 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Stop teasing us you minx. You're even getting Joe hot and bothered and he hates that.

No hot and bothered. Just interesting it's taken five rewrites.

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

No hot and bothered. Just interesting it's that hard to articulate. 

I think he's implying that his wish list is going to be much more strictly conservative than most.  Get the federal government out of anything the states can do, and stop using the commerce clause to justify government expansion.

I'm interested in the details though. 

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7 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

I've been known to write too much.

I agree clear and concise and to the point is tons better and much more difficult. The number one problem I have with most writing today is people think more words means better. 

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17 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Please leave this thread if this is the kind of thing you're going to post. @bostonfred has done a good job of trying to generate discussion. You are not. 

He asked what conservatives really wanted.  As a conservative, that is what I really want.  I want Democrats to go away.

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17 hours ago, Opie said:

I understand BOTH sides of the abortion issue so I'm am really glad that I don't have to make the decision for the country.

I understand the Left's side.  They don't see the fetus as a viable human being and therefore, it can be removed at the wishes of the mother.  How can a woman be forced to carry a fetus to full term if they don't want the child or the responsibility?  I have two daughters and that decision would be theirs...not mine.

I understand the Right's side.  To them, abortion stops a beating heart and to them, that constitutes murder.....and what would any "god fearing person" do if they knew of murders occurring?  They would try to stop it.

I get it...but the bottom line is that, banning abortions will not end abortions.

I see both sides of the argument and I wouldn't want to rule on it....BUT....don't make me pay for it.  In my opinion....abortions have nothing to do with the role of our government so my tax dollars should not be part of it...one way or the other.

Anyway...IF they were somehow banned...it would fall to the States.

 

They haven't been paid by the government since the Hyde Amendment in 1977

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I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the United States government has never and can never exist as a pure form.  It is a political theory that I am proud to call the foundation of my belief system in politics, but it isn't anything close to what anyone here has described it as.  Because, I think, and would argue, that conservatism cannot be policy outcome based as a primary definition.  It must be function based.  And because of that, we are using the wrong words today to call people conservatives when they aren't.

tl;dr So what do I want as a conservative?  With over 200 years of evidence and the growth of technological knowledge that we possess in a interconnected world where isolationism in almost every form is deadly to the very people that would embrace it?

Yeah, I'd like the states to have a little more power in the federal system on a whole; but getting bogged down in specific policies isn't my goal or desire.  I'd much rather have a federal government spending plan that is more block grant to states for their own use than anything else.  I'd like to get rid of the income tax structure that exploded the power of the federal government and get to a more conservative, Constitutional based federal funding mechanism like the Fair Tax.  But there are specific taxing policies and structures that I'm sure if you cornered me I would support.  A true conservative has to abhor the growing income and wealth disparity in the country.  Not so much because the accumulation of wealth is bad by itself, but because the lack of the ability to do it in the face of growing consolidation of power and wealth makes changing it impossible and that leads to societal upheaval.  And it's a waste of resources on top of everything else.  

I'd like to see our citizenry educated to the highest levels and corner the market on science, technology, engineering and mathematics.  I want an overpowering military force that can conquer the world at a moments notice but is never actually called to do that, instead being used a sword of diplomacy whenever possible.  I want foreign nations to see an honor in our diplomatic corps that stands for the belief worldwide that while we might not agree, or even be foes, there is a discourse available based in common understanding of the smallness of our planet.  I want a social safety net that is neither draconian nor full of fraudulent avarice, and is geared towards uplifting the family unit however defined instead of feeding its own cycle of dependence.  I want a federal domestic spending plan geared towards infrastructure, energy, transportation and growth, not political footballs to be thrown to a crowd like a roll of paper towels.

I want a society so inviting and strong with the belief in its own self that the hurt and lost of the world who seek refuge here are welcomed with open arms, a loving community and a spirit so intoxicating that they want to join it and never look back.  I want a society that never tries to legislate the consortium between grown consenting adults.

I'd like more of the small pockets of American honor that we see from time to time.  We have our warts and failures.  We need to learn from them and be better.  Not because we want to post to social media how much better we are, but because being better is the point.  I want a political climate that can stand opposing voices shouting at each other to highest mountains until the bell rings, and once it rings, help each other off the field, get a drink and get ready to do it again.  I want more adults.  Not man babies seeking out things that they determine to be unfair like they are stuck at the age of 5 looking at a world too big to understand.  I want our citizens to be the healthiest on the planet, an envy of every other nation.

I don't need the liberals to lose, the Clinton's to go to jail, the MSNBC gang to be silenced and the atheists to be quiet.  I need them all to keep yelling and fighting and demanding change to every injustice they see within our 50 states so that we can emerge better for the debate and argument and pain in fixing what might be broken.  

I want a country to leave my kids where I know I tried my best to give them something better than I had, so that they can do the same for their children.

As a conservative I want what everyone wants, or should want.  And when we choose every single little ****ing hill to die on and turn every single damned argument into the be all end all, and we warp language to destroy the ability to communicate, disagree, debate, function and grow as a collective society we burden ourselves with superfluous nonsense that makes us lose sight of the target.  

Do I want "small government?"  Sure.  I also want clean water and air, food that isn't poisoned, roads that are functional, bridges that won't fall down, a legal system that can handle its caseloads without trampling peoples procedural constitutional rights, police departments, fire departments, schools, and so on and so on.  Government is only big when you don't like whatever it is that made you call it big.  We're a nation of over 300 million people with an economic engine that generates trillions a year, in a world where we have enemies who need to see our resolve and friends who need to see our hand held out.  I'd love a smaller government.  

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

Small government is a stupid phrase.  Our federal government will never be, "small."  It can't be.  God help us if it ever is.  But more streamlined, better functioning, and equipped to handle the challenges of the day?  It can certainly do that.  A true conservative needs to worry about function and process within the spirit of the Constitution and not on the hot button topic of the day.  Set up systems so that they work better, fairer, and are more just.  That is conservative.  Wearing a red hat, laughing at the opposition and acting like a bully, complete with the ever present lack of fundamental fairness, sympathy, empathy and ability to appreciate your own self worth, isn't conservative.  

It's deplorable.

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2 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

 

2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

No hot and bothered. Just interesting it's taken five rewrites.

I've been known to write too much.

Me, too. I've definitely written, rewritten, rewritten, and ultimately scrapped way more posts than I have actually posted.

ETA: I rewrote that one three times :wall:

Edited by VandyMan
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30 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the United States government has never and can never exist as a pure form.  It is a political theory that I am proud to call the foundation of my belief system in politics, but it isn't anything close to what anyone here has described it as.  Because, I think, and would argue, that conservatism cannot be policy outcome based as a primary definition.  It must be function based.  And because of that, we are using the wrong words today to call people conservatives when they aren't.

tl;dr So what do I want as a conservative?  With over 200 years of evidence and the growth of technological knowledge that we possess in a interconnected world where isolationism in almost every form is deadly to the very people that would embrace it?

Yeah, I'd like the states to have a little more power in the federal system on a whole; but getting bogged down in specific policies isn't my goal or desire.  I'd much rather have a federal government spending plan that is more block grant to states for their own use than anything else.  I'd like to get rid of the income tax structure that exploded the power of the federal government and get to a more conservative, Constitutional based federal funding mechanism like the Fair Tax.  But there are specific taxing policies and structures that I'm sure if you cornered me I would support.  A true conservative has to abhor the growing income and wealth disparity in the country.  Not so much because the accumulation of wealth is bad by itself, but because the lack of the ability to do it in the face of growing consolidation of power and wealth makes changing it impossible and that leads to societal upheaval.  And it's a waste of resources on top of everything else.  

I'd like to see our citizenry educated to the highest levels and corner the market on science, technology, engineering and mathematics.  I want an overpowering military force that can conquer the world at a moments notice but is never actually called to do that, instead being used a sword of diplomacy whenever possible.  I want foreign nations to see an honor in our diplomatic corps that stands for the belief worldwide that while we might not agree, or even be foes, there is a discourse available based in common understanding of the smallness of our planet.  I want a social safety net that is neither draconian nor full of fraudulent avarice, and is geared towards uplifting the family unit however defined instead of feeding its own cycle of dependence.  I want a federal domestic spending plan geared towards infrastructure, energy, transportation and growth, not political footballs to be thrown to a crowd like a roll of paper towels.

I want a society so inviting and strong with the belief in its own self that the hurt and lost of the world who seek refuge here are welcomed with open arms, a loving community and a spirit so intoxicating that they want to join it and never look back.  I want a society that never tries to legislate the consortium between grown consenting adults.

I'd like more of the small pockets of American honor that we see from time to time.  We have our warts and failures.  We need to learn from them and be better.  Not because we want to post to social media how much better we are, but because being better is the point.  I want a political climate that can stand opposing voices shouting at each other to highest mountains until the bell rings, and once it rings, help each other off the field, get a drink and get ready to do it again.  I want more adults.  Not man babies seeking out things that they determine to be unfair like they are stuck at the age of 5 looking at a world too big to understand.  I want our citizens to be the healthiest on the planet, an envy of every other nation.

I don't need the liberals to lose, the Clinton's to go to jail, the MSNBC gang to be silenced and the atheists to be quiet.  I need them all to keep yelling and fighting and demanding change to every injustice they see within our 50 states so that we can emerge better for the debate and argument and pain in fixing what might be broken.  

I want a country to leave my kids where I know I tried my best to give them something better than I had, so that they can do the same for their children.

As a conservative I want what everyone wants, or should want.  And when we choose every single little ****ing hill to die on and turn every single damned argument into the be all end all, and we warp language to destroy the ability to communicate, disagree, debate, function and grow as a collective society we burden ourselves with superfluous nonsense that makes us lose sight of the target.  

Do I want "small government?"  Sure.  I also want clean water and air, food that isn't poisoned, roads that are functional, bridges that won't fall down, a legal system that can handle its caseloads without trampling peoples procedural constitutional rights, police departments, fire departments, schools, and so on and so on.  Government is only big when you don't like whatever it is that made you call it big.  We're a nation of over 300 million people with an economic engine that generates trillions a year, in a world where we have enemies who need to see our resolve and friends who need to see our hand held out.  I'd love a smaller government.  

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

Small government is a stupid phrase.  Our federal government will never be, "small."  It can't be.  God help us if it ever is.  But more streamlined, better functioning, and equipped to handle the challenges of the day?  It can certainly do that.  A true conservative needs to worry about function and process within the spirit of the Constitution and not on the hot button topic of the day.  Set up systems so that they work better, fairer, and are more just.  That is conservative.  Wearing a red hat, laughing at the opposition and acting like a bully, complete with the ever present lack of fundamental fairness, sympathy, empathy and ability to appreciate your own self worth, isn't conservative.  

It's deplorable.

Thank you for posting this. I'd like to believe this is where I was in 1992 when I voted for George H W Bush. Back then, I appreciated that even though he said "Read My Lips", he took the facts objectively and made a decision. In 2000, Gore over W to me was obvious, as W was basically a Cheney puppet and sort of buffoon-like. Florida was tough to swallow, frankly. But then I was lost for good with what they did to John Kerry. After that, when McCain picked Palin over Lieberman for VP, it became a joke. I'd really like for it to become more of a legitimate choice and decision once again.

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45 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the United States government has never and can never exist as a pure form.  It is a political theory that I am proud to call the foundation of my belief system in politics, but it isn't anything close to what anyone here has described it as.  Because, I think, and would argue, that conservatism cannot be policy outcome based as a primary definition.  It must be function based.  And because of that, we are using the wrong words today to call people conservatives when they aren't.

tl;dr So what do I want as a conservative?  With over 200 years of evidence and the growth of technological knowledge that we possess in a interconnected world where isolationism in almost every form is deadly to the very people that would embrace it?

Yeah, I'd like the states to have a little more power in the federal system on a whole; but getting bogged down in specific policies isn't my goal or desire.  I'd much rather have a federal government spending plan that is more block grant to states for their own use than anything else.  I'd like to get rid of the income tax structure that exploded the power of the federal government and get to a more conservative, Constitutional based federal funding mechanism like the Fair Tax.  But there are specific taxing policies and structures that I'm sure if you cornered me I would support.  A true conservative has to abhor the growing income and wealth disparity in the country.  Not so much because the accumulation of wealth is bad by itself, but because the lack of the ability to do it in the face of growing consolidation of power and wealth makes changing it impossible and that leads to societal upheaval.  And it's a waste of resources on top of everything else.  

I'd like to see our citizenry educated to the highest levels and corner the market on science, technology, engineering and mathematics.  I want an overpowering military force that can conquer the world at a moments notice but is never actually called to do that, instead being used a sword of diplomacy whenever possible.  I want foreign nations to see an honor in our diplomatic corps that stands for the belief worldwide that while we might not agree, or even be foes, there is a discourse available based in common understanding of the smallness of our planet.  I want a social safety net that is neither draconian nor full of fraudulent avarice, and is geared towards uplifting the family unit however defined instead of feeding its own cycle of dependence.  I want a federal domestic spending plan geared towards infrastructure, energy, transportation and growth, not political footballs to be thrown to a crowd like a roll of paper towels.

I want a society so inviting and strong with the belief in its own self that the hurt and lost of the world who seek refuge here are welcomed with open arms, a loving community and a spirit so intoxicating that they want to join it and never look back.  I want a society that never tries to legislate the consortium between grown consenting adults.

I'd like more of the small pockets of American honor that we see from time to time.  We have our warts and failures.  We need to learn from them and be better.  Not because we want to post to social media how much better we are, but because being better is the point.  I want a political climate that can stand opposing voices shouting at each other to highest mountains until the bell rings, and once it rings, help each other off the field, get a drink and get ready to do it again.  I want more adults.  Not man babies seeking out things that they determine to be unfair like they are stuck at the age of 5 looking at a world too big to understand.  I want our citizens to be the healthiest on the planet, an envy of every other nation.

I don't need the liberals to lose, the Clinton's to go to jail, the MSNBC gang to be silenced and the atheists to be quiet.  I need them all to keep yelling and fighting and demanding change to every injustice they see within our 50 states so that we can emerge better for the debate and argument and pain in fixing what might be broken.  

I want a country to leave my kids where I know I tried my best to give them something better than I had, so that they can do the same for their children.

As a conservative I want what everyone wants, or should want.  And when we choose every single little ****ing hill to die on and turn every single damned argument into the be all end all, and we warp language to destroy the ability to communicate, disagree, debate, function and grow as a collective society we burden ourselves with superfluous nonsense that makes us lose sight of the target.  

Do I want "small government?"  Sure.  I also want clean water and air, food that isn't poisoned, roads that are functional, bridges that won't fall down, a legal system that can handle its caseloads without trampling peoples procedural constitutional rights, police departments, fire departments, schools, and so on and so on.  Government is only big when you don't like whatever it is that made you call it big.  We're a nation of over 300 million people with an economic engine that generates trillions a year, in a world where we have enemies who need to see our resolve and friends who need to see our hand held out.  I'd love a smaller government.  

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

Small government is a stupid phrase.  Our federal government will never be, "small."  It can't be.  God help us if it ever is.  But more streamlined, better functioning, and equipped to handle the challenges of the day?  It can certainly do that.  A true conservative needs to worry about function and process within the spirit of the Constitution and not on the hot button topic of the day.  Set up systems so that they work better, fairer, and are more just.  That is conservative.  Wearing a red hat, laughing at the opposition and acting like a bully, complete with the ever present lack of fundamental fairness, sympathy, empathy and ability to appreciate your own self worth, isn't conservative.  

It's deplorable.

 Can you post this a couple more times so I can click like on it more than once? 

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32 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

I like this paragraph.

FWIW I'm not even sure what I am anymore, though I feel like I haven't changed, the parties have (and long before Trump came along). 

I think at bottom what I want is

  • equality of opportunity, not equality of result.
  • the approach to federal government spending to start with the question: is the federal government constitutionally authorized to act in this area? 
  • take a very laissez faire attitude towards individual freedoms.  There was a great signature in the FFA that was something like, so long as I am out of the splash zone, it is none of my business how others recreate or fornicate.
  • stop asking our military to "peace keep" or "nation build."  Neither are possible or practicable.

The one thing I hate these days, and is why I think the Politics Forum was a great move for this site, is this idea that there are two teams and you have to pick one and sign up for all of that team's ideology.  Almost every so-called "discussion" of politics these days denigrates into left v. right, conservative v. liberal, instead of examining ideas and reasons to see if they are any good.  

Anyway thanks for this thread fred.

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18 hours ago, sho nuff said:

I hate abortion.  Hate that it happens.  Hate that some are very necessary and hate that there are reasons for them.

But I realize the choices that are sometimes made.  I realize the dangers of an all out ban.

im for choice with realistic restrictions (later term and so on)

 

I also see both sides of the abortion issue.  My main conclusion: Abortion is really a morality issue with both side having different morals.  And you cannot solve a morality issue with laws.  At this point, Roe vs Wade is not going anywhere no matter how many conservative judges are appointed.  Conservatives have for years railed against activist judges.  And that is what will be needed to overturn Roe vs Wade. 

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1 hour ago, Yankee23Fan said:

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

 

3

Thanks @Yankee23Fan  I'd love to hear more about these and smaller government. And yes, I think everyone who wants smaller government means they want a more streamlined more efficient government. A specific question as I try to make sure I understand you. On the Christian element, obviously there are tons of calls to action for Christians to take care of the poor. I've heard the sentiment, "If churches did what they were supposed to, welfare programs wouldn't be necessary". Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? As always, the devil's :unsure: in the details. Can you elaborate more on how that might work and what that might mean and what kind of dent it could make in the size of government?

As you know, the homeless thing is something important to me. 

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21 hours ago, TakiToki said:

I mostly want governing out of things and am generally in favor of smaller functioning units. However this is a very general tendency of preference, not a moral guideline.

I am not concerned with wealth inequality, in and of itself. Certainly it is a strong indicator of afoot treachery, but I find the measure unimportant without context. I do have empathy for many in this world, but my thoughts tend to be centered toward a fixed baseline of some sort, rather than weighted in respect to the means of those in their proximity.

I am strongly in favor of personal freedoms, and want people to be unilaterally free to enjoy hedonistic pleasures to their hearts' content (sex, drugs and rock n roll, baby) but am not oblivious to the notion of aggressively enforced constraints possibly being a necessity in some form.

In most cases, I don't have much of an opinion on matters. That lends itself to the laissez-faire philosophy to which I subscribe, as I generally put the burden of convincement on those that wish to actively enforce something or other.

like this !!!!!!   It also promotes low blood pressure.

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12 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

I am.

I am except when it comes to Social Security and Medicare.  I have paid into it all these years so I am for it.  I might sing a different tune if I was 21 though.

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What do I want?  Partially in jest, but I'd like for all people to grok what Kipling is getting at, at the end of one of his poems:

 

"... As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!"

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2 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the United States government has never and can never exist as a pure form.  It is a political theory that I am proud to call the foundation of my belief system in politics, but it isn't anything close to what anyone here has described it as.  Because, I think, and would argue, that conservatism cannot be policy outcome based as a primary definition.  It must be function based.  And because of that, we are using the wrong words today to call people conservatives when they aren't.

tl;dr So what do I want as a conservative?  With over 200 years of evidence and the growth of technological knowledge that we possess in a interconnected world where isolationism in almost every form is deadly to the very people that would embrace it?

Yeah, I'd like the states to have a little more power in the federal system on a whole; but getting bogged down in specific policies isn't my goal or desire.  I'd much rather have a federal government spending plan that is more block grant to states for their own use than anything else.  I'd like to get rid of the income tax structure that exploded the power of the federal government and get to a more conservative, Constitutional based federal funding mechanism like the Fair Tax.  But there are specific taxing policies and structures that I'm sure if you cornered me I would support.  A true conservative has to abhor the growing income and wealth disparity in the country.  Not so much because the accumulation of wealth is bad by itself, but because the lack of the ability to do it in the face of growing consolidation of power and wealth makes changing it impossible and that leads to societal upheaval.  And it's a waste of resources on top of everything else.  

I'd like to see our citizenry educated to the highest levels and corner the market on science, technology, engineering and mathematics.  I want an overpowering military force that can conquer the world at a moments notice but is never actually called to do that, instead being used a sword of diplomacy whenever possible.  I want foreign nations to see an honor in our diplomatic corps that stands for the belief worldwide that while we might not agree, or even be foes, there is a discourse available based in common understanding of the smallness of our planet.  I want a social safety net that is neither draconian nor full of fraudulent avarice, and is geared towards uplifting the family unit however defined instead of feeding its own cycle of dependence.  I want a federal domestic spending plan geared towards infrastructure, energy, transportation and growth, not political footballs to be thrown to a crowd like a roll of paper towels.

I want a society so inviting and strong with the belief in its own self that the hurt and lost of the world who seek refuge here are welcomed with open arms, a loving community and a spirit so intoxicating that they want to join it and never look back.  I want a society that never tries to legislate the consortium between grown consenting adults.

I'd like more of the small pockets of American honor that we see from time to time.  We have our warts and failures.  We need to learn from them and be better.  Not because we want to post to social media how much better we are, but because being better is the point.  I want a political climate that can stand opposing voices shouting at each other to highest mountains until the bell rings, and once it rings, help each other off the field, get a drink and get ready to do it again.  I want more adults.  Not man babies seeking out things that they determine to be unfair like they are stuck at the age of 5 looking at a world too big to understand.  I want our citizens to be the healthiest on the planet, an envy of every other nation.

I don't need the liberals to lose, the Clinton's to go to jail, the MSNBC gang to be silenced and the atheists to be quiet.  I need them all to keep yelling and fighting and demanding change to every injustice they see within our 50 states so that we can emerge better for the debate and argument and pain in fixing what might be broken.  

I want a country to leave my kids where I know I tried my best to give them something better than I had, so that they can do the same for their children.

As a conservative I want what everyone wants, or should want.  And when we choose every single little ****ing hill to die on and turn every single damned argument into the be all end all, and we warp language to destroy the ability to communicate, disagree, debate, function and grow as a collective society we burden ourselves with superfluous nonsense that makes us lose sight of the target.  

Do I want "small government?"  Sure.  I also want clean water and air, food that isn't poisoned, roads that are functional, bridges that won't fall down, a legal system that can handle its caseloads without trampling peoples procedural constitutional rights, police departments, fire departments, schools, and so on and so on.  Government is only big when you don't like whatever it is that made you call it big.  We're a nation of over 300 million people with an economic engine that generates trillions a year, in a world where we have enemies who need to see our resolve and friends who need to see our hand held out.  I'd love a smaller government.  

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

Small government is a stupid phrase.  Our federal government will never be, "small."  It can't be.  God help us if it ever is.  But more streamlined, better functioning, and equipped to handle the challenges of the day?  It can certainly do that.  A true conservative needs to worry about function and process within the spirit of the Constitution and not on the hot button topic of the day.  Set up systems so that they work better, fairer, and are more just.  That is conservative.  Wearing a red hat, laughing at the opposition and acting like a bully, complete with the ever present lack of fundamental fairness, sympathy, empathy and ability to appreciate your own self worth, isn't conservative.  

It's deplorable.

Fantastic post.

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21 hours ago, Opie said:

I understand the Left's side.  They don't see the fetus as a viable human being and therefore...

I understand the Right's side.  To them, abortion stops a beating heart and to them... God fearing...

 

 

Abortion is super-low on my priority list and I'm pro Choice.  I don't believe in God.  Does that make me part of The Left?  Wait 'til I tell my family.  ;]

 

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks @Yankee23Fan  I'd love to hear more about these and smaller government. And yes, I think everyone who wants smaller government means they want a more streamlined more efficient government. A specific question as I try to make sure I understand you. On the Christian element, obviously there are tons of calls to action for Christians to take care of the poor. I've heard the sentiment, "If churches did what they were supposed to, welfare programs wouldn't be necessary". Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

Partly.

Elevation church in North Carolina has a revenue budget of over $43 million and Steve Furtick lives in a $1.8 million home. I will grant to him that most of his money comes from books and song credits, and his church and him give a ton of money to missions and service and charity within that church and without.

But no church needs 43 million in revenue when it is based in a state that has 15% below the poverty line, 24% of its children below the poverty line. Its located in Mecklenberg County that has about 2000 documented homeless people.

Elevation church could literally by enough land to build every one of them a 700 square foot house with all modern amenities and solve the housing crisis in that county without putting a dent in their annual budget.

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I am somewhat conservative -

1. I want federal government to handle those things required to be handled by the federal government - those things needed to sustain the conglomerate of individual states in a rational balance.

2. I want local government to handle those things that are unique to their local populace.

3. I want the legislative branch to write laws that are good for the population, modify laws as warranted when situations change.

4. I want the executive branch to enforce said laws.

5. I want the judicial branch to adjudicate, not legislate.

6. I want our military to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America, not become a surrogate of the military-industrial complex.

7. I want education to be controlled at the local level, but with input from the federal government where necessary to ensure all students have access to the quality education and students from across the country are on an even playing field when it comes to assessment.

8. I want taxation to be representative of what we need to contribute to overall necessary expenses to maintain and advance our society - not boondoggles for political favor or lining the pockets of the oligarchy or corporate citizens.  To that I don't want corporations viewed as citizens.

9. I want term limits at every level of government.

10. I want fair immigration laws - fair to those seeking citizenship as well as protections for current citizens as merited.

11. I would LOVE to eliminate the infiltration of special interest control of our government.

12. I want Chicago Cubs and New York Yankees to be disbanded and all records stricken from the record books.

 

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11 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

Partly.

Elevation church in North Carolina has a revenue budget of over $43 million and Steve Furtick lives in a $1.8 million home. I will grant to him that most of his money comes from books and song credits, and his church and him give a ton of money to missions and service and charity within that church and without.

But no church needs 43 million in revenue when it is based in a state that has 15% below the poverty line, 24% of its children below the poverty line. Its located in Mecklenberg County that has about 2000 documented homeless people.

Elevation church could literally by enough land to build every one of them a 700 square foot house with all modern amenities and solve the housing crisis in that county without putting a dent in their annual budget.

I do think this might be a tangent worth talking about. I'll start another thread to not muddy this one.

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18 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

I think my really short answer, having seen people that label themselves as conservatives sit in power for so long at this point in our modern age, is that conservatism within the confines of the United States government has never and can never exist as a pure form.  It is a political theory that I am proud to call the foundation of my belief system in politics, but it isn't anything close to what anyone here has described it as.  Because, I think, and would argue, that conservatism cannot be policy outcome based as a primary definition.  It must be function based.  And because of that, we are using the wrong words today to call people conservatives when they aren't.

tl;dr So what do I want as a conservative?  With over 200 years of evidence and the growth of technological knowledge that we possess in a interconnected world where isolationism in almost every form is deadly to the very people that would embrace it?

Yeah, I'd like the states to have a little more power in the federal system on a whole; but getting bogged down in specific policies isn't my goal or desire.  I'd much rather have a federal government spending plan that is more block grant to states for their own use than anything else.  I'd like to get rid of the income tax structure that exploded the power of the federal government and get to a more conservative, Constitutional based federal funding mechanism like the Fair Tax.  But there are specific taxing policies and structures that I'm sure if you cornered me I would support.  A true conservative has to abhor the growing income and wealth disparity in the country.  Not so much because the accumulation of wealth is bad by itself, but because the lack of the ability to do it in the face of growing consolidation of power and wealth makes changing it impossible and that leads to societal upheaval.  And it's a waste of resources on top of everything else.  

I'd like to see our citizenry educated to the highest levels and corner the market on science, technology, engineering and mathematics.  I want an overpowering military force that can conquer the world at a moments notice but is never actually called to do that, instead being used a sword of diplomacy whenever possible.  I want foreign nations to see an honor in our diplomatic corps that stands for the belief worldwide that while we might not agree, or even be foes, there is a discourse available based in common understanding of the smallness of our planet.  I want a social safety net that is neither draconian nor full of fraudulent avarice, and is geared towards uplifting the family unit however defined instead of feeding its own cycle of dependence.  I want a federal domestic spending plan geared towards infrastructure, energy, transportation and growth, not political footballs to be thrown to a crowd like a roll of paper towels.

I want a society so inviting and strong with the belief in its own self that the hurt and lost of the world who seek refuge here are welcomed with open arms, a loving community and a spirit so intoxicating that they want to join it and never look back.  I want a society that never tries to legislate the consortium between grown consenting adults.

I'd like more of the small pockets of American honor that we see from time to time.  We have our warts and failures.  We need to learn from them and be better.  Not because we want to post to social media how much better we are, but because being better is the point.  I want a political climate that can stand opposing voices shouting at each other to highest mountains until the bell rings, and once it rings, help each other off the field, get a drink and get ready to do it again.  I want more adults.  Not man babies seeking out things that they determine to be unfair like they are stuck at the age of 5 looking at a world too big to understand.  I want our citizens to be the healthiest on the planet, an envy of every other nation.

I don't need the liberals to lose, the Clinton's to go to jail, the MSNBC gang to be silenced and the atheists to be quiet.  I need them all to keep yelling and fighting and demanding change to every injustice they see within our 50 states so that we can emerge better for the debate and argument and pain in fixing what might be broken.  

I want a country to leave my kids where I know I tried my best to give them something better than I had, so that they can do the same for their children.

As a conservative I want what everyone wants, or should want.  And when we choose every single little ****ing hill to die on and turn every single damned argument into the be all end all, and we warp language to destroy the ability to communicate, disagree, debate, function and grow as a collective society we burden ourselves with superfluous nonsense that makes us lose sight of the target.  

Do I want "small government?"  Sure.  I also want clean water and air, food that isn't poisoned, roads that are functional, bridges that won't fall down, a legal system that can handle its caseloads without trampling peoples procedural constitutional rights, police departments, fire departments, schools, and so on and so on.  Government is only big when you don't like whatever it is that made you call it big.  We're a nation of over 300 million people with an economic engine that generates trillions a year, in a world where we have enemies who need to see our resolve and friends who need to see our hand held out.  I'd love a smaller government.  

You know how you get a smaller government?  Get rid of the death penalty.  Legalize and/or decriminalize drugs and the war we are fighting against our own people. Get out of the way of couples adopting children based on who they sleep with. Make an investment in health care for children so that you don't need to go into debt to take care them as adults.  Educate more people so that they are self sufficient.  Stop worrying about adults marrying each other.  Stop trying to mutate constitutional maxims to limit the freedom of another human being simply because they don't look like you, sound like you, believe what you believe or live by you.  Embrace knowledge, facts and evidence.  Give a voice to the voiceless, a home to the homeless and hope to the hopeless. Act like a Christian and stop worrying about legislating like one.  Do those things, and when you are done, then you can have your smaller government because it won't be needed to do all those things and handle the concomitant problems that arise from them that require more funding and more funding and more funding.

Small government is a stupid phrase.  Our federal government will never be, "small."  It can't be.  God help us if it ever is.  But more streamlined, better functioning, and equipped to handle the challenges of the day?  It can certainly do that.  A true conservative needs to worry about function and process within the spirit of the Constitution and not on the hot button topic of the day.  Set up systems so that they work better, fairer, and are more just.  That is conservative.  Wearing a red hat, laughing at the opposition and acting like a bully, complete with the ever present lack of fundamental fairness, sympathy, empathy and ability to appreciate your own self worth, isn't conservative.  

It's deplorable.

You complete me. :wub:

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