timschochet
Footballguy
What straw man? I don’t understand what your role is here. You’re hinting that you serve as some kind of consultant to women considering an abortion. What exactly are you doing? Please explain.
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Abortion vs Suicide (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KCitons
- Start date
badmojo1006
Footballguy
So if a woman takes a "Morning After" pill, would you consider that murder?
And if you take this logically by your own arguments then the women is committing premedited murder. Should we lock her up for life? Death Penalty?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I quibble a bit with "anyone" in the questions - there are circumstances in which someone has lost the ability to have reasonable agency over his or her own life temporarily, and should be prevented from making certain decisions. But in most circumstances, yes all around.
I've been asked for advice by someone I care about. Do I now have your permission learn more about thoroughly understanding the issue?
joffer
Footballguy
tim covered the murder part, abortion is currently lawful
i'm pro-choice, and at some point it is absolutely the killing of a human life IMO. I don't know at what point that is, but its some time after zygote and some time before birth. the dividing line isn't that important to me. i'm not pro-choice because I think it's not the taking of a human life. i'm pro-choice because a) i'm not going to tell a woman what she has to do with her body for nine months and b) the alternative (making it illegal) is a far worse option.
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KCitons
Footballguy
joffer
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Yes. I don't think all adults who have abortions did it with a mature rational decision, but to be honest, it doesn't bother me as much as suicide does, so I don't even think that lines needs to be drawn. I think a woman should be able to have an abortion for any reason. Suicide? No. It should be a mature rational reason.KCitons said:
It's weird that you compare the two. They are really different to me.
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
I think they are similar if you believe a person should have the sole decision over their life. For most Pro-lifers, they see that as also having a decision over an unborn life. I we are going to give women the ability to make that decision, then I think it has to be extended to anyone that wants to end their life. It's less about that act and more about the principle of a persons rights in regards to their own body.
KCitons
Footballguy
Thanks. Very thoughtful post.
I'm pro-life and believe that life starts at conception. But I understand that is my own personal view. I agree that abortion is 100% a pregnant woman's choice.
But I also believe it's
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
So you would do what with the person who successfully committed suicide? What's the prison sentence?
joffer
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
I was being facetious.
There could be laws for attempted suicide. But, that would depend on what you are trying to accomplish. I get the feeling some would want the person to live a long life, even if it was an unhappy life. Which is why I've asked the question about assisted suicide for anyone that wants it.
timschochet
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Yes.
Individual circumstances, different belief systems lack of accepted scientific definitions make this a massive grey area as we all know. My personal views differ from my political views. I have no issues with the current laws.
My primary goal was just for straight talk about the action itself, including what is uncertain/unknown/unknowable.
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s interesting that you accuse me of sarcasm and then write this.
Be that as it may, this is not the sort of issue that anyone can “thoroughly understand.” If you believe that terminating a fetus is immoral and the taking of an innocent life, no amount of explanation is ever going to make it OK. On the other hand, if you believe a woman should have the right to make her own reproductive decisions in consultation with her doctor without interference from the state, no amount of explanation is ever going to change that conviction.
I respect both points of view, but I am definitely on the pro-choice side. But I know that at a certain point there is no meeting ground.
The morning pill does one of three things; it delays ovulation, interferes with fertilization or prevents a fertilized egg from being attached to the uterus. Two of which the sperm hasn't even hit the egg yet. You were talking heartbeats earlier, now you've moved all the way to contraception. The only people I know that are against contraception and would frame it in a way as killing a human are people who have been highly affected by religion. It isn't possible to find answers to your questions if your beliefs are based in the imaginary.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think assisted suicide in situations of great pain should be legal. All other suicides should be against the law.
timschochet
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
I'll admit, I don't know much about the abortion process. But, I think I'm correct to assume that a woman doesn't have one without the assistance of a medical professional. What makes that different from assisted suicide?
I stand corrected then and thanks for the clarification then. My understanding of morning after pill flawed. My understanding was it was also lethal upon conception. I've got no issues with contraception.
I was only talking heartbeats earlier because that seemed an obvious starting point that the fetus is a human being. My beliefs are not based in the imaginary so I have no idea what you're trying to imply there.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
You would be incorrect. When they're illegal, some desperate, pregnant women resort to self-abortion or the help of unqualified people - often with tragic results. "Abortion" never goes away, only safe abortion goes away.
KCitons
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
You seem to lump "suicide" in with "assisted suicide". I view them differently. No one can stop "suicide" or outlaw "suicide". "Assisted" is very different. You certainly can't make "suicide" illegal". If you're suggesting legal consequences for an unsuccessful attempt, I think that would be morally wrong. Its a mental health issue, not legal.
Now if you talk about assisting someone, I can see the legal aspects of that. But in that case, the legal consequence would be for the assistant, not the assistee. Not the same as someone aborting an unwanted pregnancy. So to your point - yes, a safe, legal abortion requires a medical professional. If you make abortion illegal (I'm looking at you, Georgia) you will only succeed in removing the "safe" aspect. There is no "safe" suicide.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Isn't it amazing how similar so many things are when we focus on one aspect of them and ignore everything else about them?
KCitons
Footballguy
Not sure your point.
Both of abortion and suicide are decisions made by a single person. For the former, we have said that the woman has that right. For the latter, it often happens in moment of solitude. But still their right.
I suggest we bring them both out of the shadows. Give both the opportunity for professional help in order to make the decision that is right for them. And have the process carried out by professionals.
Do you think having the option for assisted suicide, after professional counseling, would ultimately help or hurt a majority of the population? The only way it would work is if some of the people are actually allowed to end their life. Otherwise it would be seen as just a way to prevent suicide. In an odd way, I would compare it to the father that finds his son smoking a cigar and makes him smoke the whole pack.
joffer
Footballguy
tim asked this in the other thread, and i'm curious as well. if you're pro-life because abortion is the taking of a human life, why does the manner of conception make a difference? or are you ok with the legal exceptions of rape and incest but still against abortion personally in those cases?
joffer
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Not trying to make a joke here but what's the penalty going to be? The person is gone at that point.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
One of the main issues in the abortion debate is whether the fetus is a person - an independent being. Obviously a fetus is human, but the question is whether a fetus is a human being with independent rights. That's often the sticking point between the talking points of "baby killing" and "fetus extraction."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Nether have to be comparable at all in order to do that for both of them. What's the point of comparing them?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Just as an aside, you know suicide itself is not statutorily illegal in any state, right?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Alcohol was illegal at one point as well. And you know how well that conversation worked.
KCitons
Footballguy
So the magic time is when the sperm hits the egg or when it is attached to the uterus? Surely you can see how we must split hairs here and I'm sure there is a Monty Python reference that's relevant. Why aren't you killing living things when the sperm and egg are separate? I'm curious what your beliefs are based on if not religion.
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I never said I was pro-life in the conventional sense of all abortions being morally wrong and fully outlawed, etc.
What I believe is that life starts at conception...and that abortion is literally killing another human being from the point of conception onward. Life has to start somewhere and for me that is where.
Whether or not taking that life is justified IMO then becomes an individual choice based on a multitude of factors along a spectrum that ranges from strictly personal (religious belief system) to situational (accidental, irresponsible, can't provide) to societal norms (i.e. rape, incest).
So there's two major aspects of this debate that are anywhere from completely objective to massively subjective based on who you talk to: 1) when does a human become a human being and 2) when (if ever) is the taking of that human's life legally acceptable or personally justified?
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