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Manhattan Will No Longer Prosecute Prostitution (1 Viewer)

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ekbeats

Footballguy
Manhattan to Stop Prosecuting Prostitution, Part of Nationwide Shift
 

Looks like the final unwinding of Giuiliani’s reforms.  I have to say I’m a bit torn on this one. The Libertarian in me approves, but then again I remember what NY looked like in the 70’s.  But if you’re going to wade into this pool why not do it in style with a Triple Lindy and just legalize it.  And while you’re at it regulate it, tax it, and most importantly - test the workers.

 
I have zero issue if anyone wants to pay for or be paid for sex.  I do wonder if child trafficking will get worse though.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
I have zero issue if anyone wants to pay for or be paid for sex.  I do wonder if child trafficking will get worse though.
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I think if you legalize it you'd decrease trafficking.  By keeping it illegal but not prosecuting individual sex workers, that means you're still using massage parlors and other businesses as fronts for illegal activity.   That keeps the organized criminal elements involved.

 
-fish- said:
I think this approach is also just going to encourage more sex trafficking.   
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IDK man.  It's still illegal to solicit and traffic.  This will mean less girls getting hemmed up, therefore more girls on the street, therefore LESS need to recruit more talent.  

 
What's the pros/cons of doing it this way vs. making prostitution legal?   I this meant to be a step toward making it legal?

 
KarmaPolice said:
What's the pros/cons of doing it this way vs. making prostitution legal?   I this meant to be a step toward making it legal?
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I think @-fish- summarized it pretty good above.

By making it legal and taxable then the government gets involved and has the oversight.  Simply not prosecuting it means organized crime and sex trafficking will still be a mainstay in the industry.

 
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-fish- said:
I think if you legalize it you'd decrease trafficking.  By keeping it illegal but not prosecuting individual sex workers, that means you're still using massage parlors and other businesses as fronts for illegal activity.   That keeps the organized criminal elements involved.
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True - it's not the prostitution that's the problem.  It's everything that goes with it.  Human trafficking, drug use, etc., etc.  The Manhattan solution seems half assed.

 
-fish- said:
I think if you legalize it you'd decrease trafficking.  By keeping it illegal but not prosecuting individual sex workers, that means you're still using massage parlors and other businesses as fronts for illegal activity.   That keeps the organized criminal elements involved.
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Yeah this seems like a half-measure to me. 

 
The Z Machine said:
Not only test the workers, but give them counseling / support.  Try to identify those that are being exploited and by whom.
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I'd question the exploitation and the counseling.  Again, make it legal, regulate...people make their choices for what they do with their bodies.  I don't think you should have to go to counseling to buy weed or alcohol. 

 
djmich said:
I'd question the exploitation and the counseling.  Again, make it legal, regulate...people make their choices for what they do with their bodies.  I don't think you should have to go to counseling to buy weed or alcohol. 
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There’s a difference between making services available and making them mandatory.  I wouldn’t require all sex workers to get counseling but having more social services available to them seems like a positive step.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
There’s a difference between making services available and making them mandatory.  I wouldn’t require all sex workers to get counseling but having more social services available to them seems like a positive step.
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Maybe.  Should porn actresses and actors have counseling available?  I'm thinking in the context of a world where it is not illegal, its not run by pimps.

 
djmich said:
Maybe.  Should porn actresses and actors have counseling available?  I'm thinking in the context of a world where it is not illegal, its not run by pimps.
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Ideally everyone should have social services available to them.  But yeah, higher risk groups should be prioritized and I think both sex workers and  porn actresses fit into that group.  Even if completely legalized those professions will continue to be stigmatized.

 
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I think they should just legalize it entirely. For all the reasons discussed above.

But to those worried about increasing sex trafficking - that's still illegal. I assume you can prosecute sex traffickers without prosecuting the prostitutes. At least this is what I learned from Elliot Stabler and Olivia Benson.

 
whoknew said:
I think they should just legalize it entirely. For all the reasons discussed above.

But to those worried about increasing sex trafficking - that's still illegal. I assume you can prosecute sex traffickers without prosecuting the prostitutes. At least this is what I learned from Elliot Stabler and Olivia Benson.
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It is illegal now too...and still a problem.  If legalization of prostitution then increases trafficking...I don't think it still being illegal is much of a deterrent.

 
sho nuff said:
It is illegal now too...and still a problem.  If legalization of prostitution then increases trafficking...I don't think it still being illegal is much of a deterrent.
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True, I'd want to understand better the underlying reasons why its still an issue and what might be done differently.

But like alcohol, there are innocent victims of abuse.  DUI is illegal.  People still die in car wrecks.  Not saying thats good, just a comperable.

 
djmich said:
True, I'd want to understand better the underlying reasons why its still an issue and what might be done differently.

But like alcohol, there are innocent victims of abuse.  DUI is illegal.  People still die in car wrecks.  Not saying thats good, just a comperable.
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Sure...Ive not looked at this in a while.  My pretty shallow dive into the arguments several years ago led me to not support legalization because of such things.  Ive read too many papers of the exploitation of the women as well as increases in human trafficking in areas where its legal.

 
djmich said:
I'm thinking in the context of a world where it is not illegal, its not run by pimps.
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But it will still likely (partially) be run by pimps, even if legal.  It is often men that bring women into sex work and exploit the women for personal gain.  That's the real downside here.

 
The Z Machine said:
What about the ones that would like to get out of sex work?  What about the ones that are in abusive relationships?  How would the union help them?
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What do accountants that want to get out of accounting do?

Why wouldn't the union protect them from bad employers and negotiate rights on her behalf?

I don't think "there will still be illegal activity like pimps" is a reason to keep it illegal and still have pimps.

 
Sex work isn't simply an exchange like selling widgets.  This is a psychological business and it wrecks most all of its participants, suppliers and consumers alike.

There is a reason that legality actually increases sex trafficking.  Normalizing deviance doesn't satisfy it, it fuels it.  People seeking sex work aren't doing so simply to feed a common need, thus the market won't work like normal markets.  Amsterdam in all its glory is pretty sick of its Red Light district and is moving it out of the city.  Porn stars commit suicide at alarming rates.

This is not the good thing some of you think it is.

 
Jayrod said:
Sex work isn't simply an exchange like selling widgets.  This is a psychological business and it wrecks most all of its participants, suppliers and consumers alike.

There is a reason that legality actually increases sex trafficking.  Normalizing deviance doesn't satisfy it, it fuels it.  People seeking sex work aren't doing so simply to feed a common need, thus the market won't work like normal markets.  Amsterdam in all its glory is pretty sick of its Red Light district and is moving it out of the city.  Porn stars commit suicide at alarming rates.

This is not the good thing some of you think it is.
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These seem like the arguments made by drug warriors and prohibitionists.  “Drugs are bad so they should be illegal” is a disastrous policy choice.  People still take drugs but making them illegal creates all sorts of public safety issues that wouldn’t exist if drugs were legalized.

It’s the same with sex work.  The choice isn’t between a world where there are sex workers and a world without them.  Sex workers will exist no matter what laws we have in place.  Making it illegal just makes sex workers more vulnerable to criminal elements and less inclined to seek help from police or  social services.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
These seem like the arguments made by drug warriors and prohibitionists.  “Drugs are bad so they should be illegal” is a disastrous policy choice.  People still take drugs but making them illegal creates all sorts of public safety issues that wouldn’t exist if drugs were legalized.

It’s the same with sex work.  The choice isn’t between a world where there are sex workers and a world without them.  Sex workers will exist no matter what laws we have in place.  Making it illegal just makes sex workers more vulnerable to criminal elements and less inclined to seek help from police or  social services.
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Drugs and sex work are not the same thing and that's my point.  I'm not making the same argument for both, so don't put words in my mouth.  I'm for legalization of drugs, but not sex work 

Legalizing sex work does nothing to stem the tide of destroyed lives and exploitation of children, and, in fact, makes it worse.  Do some actual research instead of making false comparisons.

The "it's the oldest profession" and "they are going to exist anyway" are invalid arguments if your goal is protection of citizenry from criminal behavior.  All legalized sex work has ever done is destroy more lives and incite more criminal behavior than before it is legal.

 
Jayrod said:
Drugs and sex work are not the same thing and that's my point.  I'm not making the same argument for both, so don't put words in my mouth.  I'm for legalization of drugs, but not sex work 

Legalizing sex work does nothing to stem the tide of destroyed lives and exploitation of children, and, in fact, makes it worse.  Do some actual research instead of making false comparisons.

The "it's the oldest profession" and "they are going to exist anyway" are invalid arguments if your goal is protection of citizenry from criminal behavior.  All legalized sex work has ever done is destroy more lives and incite more criminal behavior than before it is legal.
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I agree drugs and prostitution are totally different ballgames.

Intuitively I'd say that drugs are more harmful, they actually harm the user.  Nobody ever died of an over-used vagina though.  But for sure I can see the psychological effects being much worse...sex being bad is only in our heads but that doesn't mean we should dismiss it or the observed impacts of legalizing it.

 
I'm torn on this.  The Washtenaw county prosecutor in Michigan already announced he would not prosecute sex crimes.

I'd like to see how it plays out.   The good thing, I feel, is if it shows to lead to an increase in all the negative aspects, such as child trafficking, I would think the law could be reinstated.  

As far as the basic paying for sex, yeah I don't see a huge problem with it.  

 
Jayrod said:
Do some actual research instead of making false comparisons.
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This isn’t helpful.  There are thoughtful, well-informed people on both sides of this issue.  If you want to point people to some specific research that you find compelling, that might be helpful to the discussion.  Claiming that anyone with a contrary opinion hasn’t looked into the issue is condescending and wrong.

As it turns out, when I was in law school I worked for a professor and helped her with research on this exact issue.  That was 20 years ago so not everything is the same, but it’s not like I’m coming at this as a blank slate.  At the time there was considerable data showing that sex workers who suffered abuse from pimps and johns would not seek out help from authorities because they were afraid that doing so would subject themselves to criminal penalties.  Is that no longer true?

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
This isn’t helpful.  There are thoughtful, well-informed people on both sides of this issue.  If you want to point people to some specific research that you find compelling, that might be helpful to the discussion.  Claiming that anyone with a contrary opinion hasn’t looked into the issue is condescending and wrong.

As it turns out, when I was in law school I worked for a professor and helped her with research on this exact issue.  That was 20 years ago so not everything is the same, but it’s not like I’m coming at this as a blank slate.  At the time there was considerable data showing that sex workers who suffered abuse from pimps and johns would not seek out help from authorities because they were afraid that doing so would subject themselves to criminal penalties.  Is that no longer true?
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To be fair, you started out comparing his argument to that of a drug warrior.  This was after a post from him that was not inflammatory.  Do you think that was helpful?

 
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djmich said:
To be fair, you started out comparing his argument to that of a drug warrior.  This was after a post from him that was not inflammatory.  Do you think that was helpful?
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I think it's definitely helpful to point out that certain legal prohibitions can lead to black markets with unintended negative consequences.

Drug and alcohol prohibitions are good historical examples. Shouldn't we consider the potential for a similar phenomenon in other contexts like sex work? I don't view that as unhelpful.

While some of us might have misunderstood Jayrod's argument, it did seem to have the general form of: X has bad consequences; making X illegal would make it less common; therefore we should make X illegal.

It's an argument that seems valid at first glance. Pointing out where it's historically gone wrong is a useful way to empirically demonstrate that it isn't logically airtight.

 
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supermike80 said:
I'm torn on this.  The Washtenaw county prosecutor in Michigan already announced he would not prosecute sex crimes.

I'd like to see how it plays out.   The good thing, I feel, is if it shows to lead to an increase in all the negative aspects, such as child trafficking, I would think the law could be reinstated.  

As far as the basic paying for sex, yeah I don't see a huge problem with it.  
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Those Mich co-ed's have to pay for school somehow.

 
djmich said:
I agree drugs and prostitution are totally different ballgames.

Intuitively I'd say that drugs are more harmful, they actually harm the user.  Nobody ever died of an over-used vagina though.  But for sure I can see the psychological effects being much worse...sex being bad is only in our heads but that doesn't mean we should dismiss it or the observed impacts of legalizing it.
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Definitely not my wife.  Thanks, I’ll be here all week - try the veal.

 
Jayrod said:
Drugs and sex work are not the same thing and that's my point.  I'm not making the same argument for both, so don't put words in my mouth.  I'm for legalization of drugs, but not sex work 

Legalizing sex work does nothing to stem the tide of destroyed lives and exploitation of children, and, in fact, makes it worse.  Do some actual research instead of making false comparisons.

The "it's the oldest profession" and "they are going to exist anyway" are invalid arguments if your goal is protection of citizenry from criminal behavior.  All legalized sex work has ever done is destroy more lives and incite more criminal behavior than before it is legal.
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Care to further explain or support the bold? Not arguing with you or challenging you, I genuinely am struggling to recall anything I've read on this issue that supports what you're saying so I'm curious what you have read which supports this sweeping conclusion.

 
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