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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets


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2 hours ago, NightStalkers said:

The real problem is do they want peace.  People have been fighting over that area for centuries. and that includes jews, arabs etc....

Hamas does not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel. The far right in Israel does not want peace; they want a greater Israel in which Palestinians are either forced out or permanently second class citizens. 

But I believe that the average Israeli and Palestinian would love peace (for the Palestinians, it has to come with a true home and a chance at prosperity.) 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Here’s the problem: two Israelis are dead, the IDF retaliates (as they must) and 28 Palestinians are dead including 12 children. 
 

That trade off is not a win for Israel. They can’t win when children are killed. 

Two Israelis dead? That's a load of BS.  Last report I read said that there were hundreds wounded and at least five dead in the rocket attacks.

You must be getting your news from the mainstream media.  That's the price you pay for believing every word they spoon-feed you.

Hamas knows darn well what the retaliation is going to be and they continue to do it. The people should be angry at Hamas, not isreal. As far as I'm concerned if you mess with the bull you get the horns.

Edited by BladeRunner
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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Hamas does not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel. The far right in Israel does not want peace; they want a greater Israel in which Palestinians are either forced out or permanently second class citizens. 

But I believe that the average Israeli and Palestinian would love peace (for the Palestinians, it has to come with a true home and a chance at prosperity.) 

But its not just Israel vs. Hamas.  It is Israel vs. Hamas, Iran and many Muslims around the world.  Many have been indoctrinated that Israel is evil and their destruction is Allah's will.

Since WW2 and the holocaust was only about 80 years ago, I'm fine with their knee jerk reactions to all of this "death to Israel" stuff and am fine with their heavy handed responses to attacks and violence.  They are surrounded by a dozen or so nations that have either overtly stated their hatred for the country or have implied it.  I'd be throwing haymakers at anyone that poked me if I was surrounded by people who were threatening to kill me every day.

Edited by Jayrod
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14 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

But its not just Israel vs. Hamas.  It is Israel vs. Hamas, Iran and every other Muslim in the world.  They've all been indoctrinated that Israel is evil and their destruction is Allah's will.

Since WW2 and the holocaust was only about 80 years ago, I'm fine with their knee jerk reactions to all of this "death to Israel" stuff and am fine with their heavy handed responses to attacks and violence.  They are surrounded by a dozen or so nations that have either overtly stated their hatred for the country or have implied it.  I'd be throwing haymakers at anyone that poked me if I was surrounded by people who were threatening to kill me every day.

Nonsense.

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33 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Hamas does not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel. The far right in Israel does not want peace; they want a greater Israel in which Palestinians are either forced out or permanently second class citizens. 

But I believe that the average Israeli and Palestinian would love peace (for the Palestinians, it has to come with a true home and a chance at prosperity.) 

i mostly agree with you.  I would think the avg Isreali would insist on not getting attacked either.  But the Romans, Greeks, Persians, muslims, crusaders have run thru that area for going on 2 thousand years.  Not sure the area has ever been left alone to decide for itself what can be accomplished.

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Here’s the problem: two Israelis are dead, the IDF retaliates (as they must) and 28 Palestinians are dead including 12 children. 
 

That trade off is not a win for Israel. They can’t win when children are killed. 

Meh.

Non partian/unbiased observers would probably view this as an international version of "Play stupid games/win stupid prizes".  

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Hamas does not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel. The far right in Israel does not want peace; they want a greater Israel in which Palestinians are either forced out or permanently second class citizens. 

But I believe that the average Israeli and Palestinian would love peace (for the Palestinians, it has to come with a true home and a chance at prosperity.) 

Then Hamas or better yet, the Palestinians should turn on Hamas. Stop letting Hamas use civilians as human shields. Of course children are going to die if their launching rockets from areas where civilians are. 

It's the unfortunate side of attacking someone stronger then you.

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Just now, Thunderlips said:

Agreed.

I also agreed and edited my original post.

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8 hours ago, NightStalkers said:

i mostly agree with you.  I would think the avg Isreali would insist on not getting attacked either.  But the Romans, Greeks, Persians, muslims, crusaders have run thru that area for going on 2 thousand years.  Not sure the area has ever been left alone to decide for itself what can be accomplished.

Yup. What can you expect when you’re on top? You know? It’s like Napoleon. When he was the king, you know, people were just constantly trying to conquer him, you know, in the Roman Empire. So, it’s history repeating itself all over again.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Yup. What can you expect when you’re on top? You know? It’s like Napoleon. When he was the king, you know, people were just constantly trying to conquer him, you know, in the Roman Empire. So, it’s history repeating itself all over again.

From your tone, I'm getting the sense that you think Israel is somehow the big dog and the bully here.

Sure Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palestine, but they are seeing this as a much bigger engagement with Iran and the other hostile nations that surround them. 

The Muslim world is crying foul (just try typing "Israel" or "Palestine" into your twitter search box) when there is a lot more going on.  Even our Muslim US congress people are claiming what Israel is doing is illegal/wrong and spouting off about evicting Palestinians during Ramadan (which hasn't even happened....it was just supposed to be a court judgement on 4 houses this week which got postponed). 

Hamas is being prodded by Iran to pick a fight with Israel, and it is working.

I think the Israeli's should show more restraint, but like I mentioned last night, their history works against them here and they are overreacting because they feel they must to preserve the only place they have to call home.  When the majority of the Muslim world wants to annihilate your existence as a state (and for some, as a people), you tend to get a little trigger happy when things go awry.

Edited by Jayrod
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2 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

From your tone, I'm getting the sense that you think Israel is somehow the big dog and the bully here.

Sure Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palestine, but they are seeing this as a much bigger engagement with Iran and the other hostile nations that surround them. 

The Muslim world is crying foul (just try typing "Israel" or "Palestine" into your twitter search box) when there is a lot more going on.  Even our Muslim US congress people are claiming what Israel is doing is illegal/wrong and spouting off about evicting Palestinians during Ramadan (which hasn't even happened....it was just supposed to be a court judgement on 4 houses this week which got postponed). 

Hamas is being prodded by Iran to pick a fight with Israel, and it is working.

I think the Israeli's should show more restraint, but like I mentioned last night, their history works against them here and they are overreacting because they feel they must to preserve the only place they have to call home.  When the majority of the Muslim world wants to annihilate your existence as a state (and for some, as a people), you tend to get a little trigger happy when things go awry.

 I agree with your assessment pretty much 100%.  I'm no expert on the situation (maybe Israel really is behaving atrociously and I'm not seeing it).....but I can't fault them for acting/reacting the way they do.  

My quote was actually from Boogie Nights in an attempt to lay a little brevity.  I'm a joke maker.

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I spoke with an Israeli colleague this morning.  He's an IDF Reserve Officer and had already scheduled deployment for this week.  He'll be going into settlement areas to do peacekeeping operations.  He was obviously concerned with his safety and the safety of his soldiers.  Said right now, this was a bigger risk he'd ever personally faced in his career.  He seemed less concerned with the rocket attacks than he was with uprisings from Israeli Arabs within cities in Israel.  He said that was really scary to see rioting in the streets, burning buildings (even synagogues) in the "mixed" cities with large Arab Israeli populations.  

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9 hours ago, NightStalkers said:

i mostly agree with you.  I would think the avg Isreali would insist on not getting attacked either.  But the Romans, Greeks, Persians, muslims, crusaders have run thru that area for going on 2 thousand years.  Not sure the area has ever been left alone to decide for itself what can be accomplished.

That tends to happen where three different continents meet. The land itself is very strategic, at least in its entirety. Fighting over a swath that’s not very large, because it holds great significance to three major religions also throws a wrench into everything.

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10 hours ago, timschochet said:

Here’s the problem: two Israelis are dead, the IDF retaliates (as they must) and 28 Palestinians are dead including 12 children. 
 

That trade off is not a win for Israel. They can’t win when children are killed. 

The problem is Iran.    None of this happens without Irans say so.

Secondarily,  isreal uses its military to protect its citizens.   The palestinians and hamas use its citizens to protect its military.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Yup. What can you expect when you’re on top? You know? It’s like Napoleon. When he was the king, you know, people were just constantly trying to conquer him, you know, in the Roman Empire. So, it’s history repeating itself all over again.

Dirk Diggler...a god !!
"I love you, you love me. Going down the sugar tree. We'll go down the sugar tree, and see lots of bees: playing, playing. But the bees won't sting, because you love me"

Him, and Floyd Gondoli....“I like simple pleasures, like butter in my ###, lollipops in my mouth. That's just me. That's just something that I enjoy.”

Edited by Opie
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

Yup. What can you expect when you’re on top? You know? It’s like Napoleon. When he was the king, you know, people were just constantly trying to conquer him, you know, in the Roman Empire. So, it’s history repeating itself all over again.

Boogie Nights...a movie that can bring EVERYONE together.

Seriously...even without the T&A scenes...this is one of my top 5 movies...ever!

It's the kind of movie that can spark a serious response from someone, when quoted!

....as proven here!   :lol:
(that, was awesome!)

 

Edited by Opie
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jamny said:

Pardon my ignorance but how did this particular one start? 

Obviously the long history plays into it a great deal, but the recent events seemed to be set off by a potential eviction in East Jerusalem of a handful of Palestinians in favor of some Jewish families.  The Israeli Supreme Court was expected to rule in favor of the Jewish families and then they could have the Palestinians removed by force.  Apparently these cases have been in courts for decades and are just now coming to a head.  However, the Palestinians started protesting this (among other things) and then there were clashes with police where the Israel police forces got a little heavy handed and Hamas started threatening the police to stop or else.

The biggest trigger event was once such clash that escalated at a mosque where a bunch of Muslims were celebrating Ramadan and the police ended up clearing the mosque out with rubber bullets and smoke grenades after the Palestinians were throwing rocks and chairs at the police.  The scene got pretty intense with some 200+ Palestinians being injured and then Hamas decided that was enough of a reason to fire like 500 rockets over the wall into Israel from Gaza of which a couple got past the "iron dome" defense and some Israelis died.  Then Israel retaliated with missile strikes and killed a bunch of alleged Hamas leaders but also like 10 children.  It has continued to escalate with rocket attacks, Muslim riots within Israel followed by more Israeli assassinations and missile strikes.

Edited by Jayrod
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jamny said:

Pardon my ignorance but how did this particular one start? 

May 14, 1948

I think that it was summed up in one of those Harry Potter movies when it was foretold that, "Neither can live while the other survives"

Edited by Opie
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56 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Obviously the long history plays into it a great deal, but the recent events seemed to be set off by a potential eviction in East Jerusalem of a handful of Palestinians in favor of some Jewish families.  The Israeli Supreme Court was expected to rule in favor of the Jewish families and then they could have the Palestinians removed by force.  Apparently these cases have been in courts for decades and are just now coming to a head.  However, the Palestinians started protesting this (among other things) and then there were clashes with police where the Israel police forces got a little heavy handed and Hamas started threatening the police to stop or else.

The biggest trigger event was once such clash that escalated at a mosque where a bunch of Muslims were celebrating Ramadan and the police ended up clearing the mosque out with rubber bullets and smoke grenades after the Palestinians were throwing rocks and chairs at the police.  The scene got pretty intense with some 200+ Palestinians being injured and then Hamas decided that was enough of a reason to fire like 500 rockets over the wall into Israel from Gaza of which a couple got past the "iron dome" defense and some Israelis died.  Then Israel retaliated with missile strikes and killed a bunch of alleged Hamas leaders but also like 10 children.  It has continued to escalate with rocket attacks, Muslim riots within Israel followed by more Israeli assassinations and missile strikes.

Thank you. :thumbup: 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Yeah, Hamas is just throwing lobs over the wall blind hoping to hit something.

Meanwhile Israel is dropping buildings on top of Hamas leaders.  This isn't a fair fight militarily at all.  The only thing staying Israel's hand right now is all out war and worldwide backlash.  A lot of people want to criticize the US/UK involvement as enabling Israel, but we are probably the one's keeping them from just rolling through Gaza and the West Bank with tanks and just taking it all to eliminate the Hamas threats for good.

Edited by Jayrod
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1 hour ago, Jayrod said:

we are probably the one's keeping them from just rolling through Gaza and the West Bank with tanks and just taking it all to eliminate the Hamas threats for good.

Uh, what would they then do, kick out all the non-Israelis?  Force them to go where?  Inconceivable.  

Would the IDF try to occupy Palestine permanently?  Sounds like a recipe for a lot of people dead.

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18 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Uh, what would they then do, kick out all the non-Israelis?  Force them to go where?  Inconceivable.  

Would the IDF try to occupy Palestine permanently?  Sounds like a recipe for a lot of people dead.

It sounds exactly like what the far right members of Israel want and already do in part.  They ultimately want to have complete control over the entire region (aka the "Promised Land") which includes Gaza and the West Bank.  Not sure what they would do with the Palestinians that lived there, but the continued establishment of settlements and increasing occupation of those areas is already taking place.

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Now 6 Israelis dead, and over 60 Palestinians dead and 20 children. 
Again, what is the endgame? 

PLA/Hamas have always been willing to hide in schools and neighborhoods when executing these attacks.  If the IDF doesn't strike back, great.  If they do and kill kids that's an acceptable loss to foment negative public opinion toward the Israelis.  This is the same story on repeat.  

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22 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

It sounds exactly like what the far right members of Israel want and already do in part.  They ultimately want to have complete control over the entire region (aka the "Promised Land") which includes Gaza and the West Bank.  Not sure what they would do with the Palestinians that lived there, but the continued establishment of settlements and increasing occupation of those areas is already taking place.

There are settlements and then there's the forced deportation of an entire people. 

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Religion sure gets destructively and predictably weird sometimes.

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44 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

There are settlements and then there's the forced deportation of an entire people. 

And in between is occupation as well.

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

There are settlements and then there's the forced deportation of an entire people. 

question:  didn't the entire Middle East countries despise the Palestinians?

just asking.

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44 minutes ago, kwille said:

Religion sure gets destructively and predictably weird sometimes.

I think the key word is tolerant of other religions.  IMO

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3 hours ago, -fish- said:

Some of these videos and photographs of the missile defense system in action are just incredible.

 

Just some of the footage.

Incredible is the right word for it.

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Burning Israeli flags and Pro-Palestinian graffiti showing up around Jewish buildings in Europe :unsure: 

 

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11 hours ago, Sand said:

PLA/Hamas have always been willing to hide in schools and neighborhoods when executing these attacks.  If the IDF doesn't strike back, great.  If they do and kill kids that's an acceptable loss to foment negative public opinion toward the Israelis.  This is the same story on repeat.  

Bingo.  Israel knows exactly where they are firing from, so they easily neutralize the target.  The amount of rockets fired aren't smuggled into daycares in a baby bag.  Many of the Palestinians must be aware of what's going on and just not care about killing women & children.

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What a friggin' mess.    Those blaming Trump, Biden or any other US president for this mess are out of line.   

There will never be peace in this region and neither the Palestinians nor Israelis are free from blame.   

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15 hours ago, [icon] said:

Burning Israeli flags and Pro-Palestinian graffiti showing up around Jewish buildings in Europe :unsure: 

 

Chicago had a pro-Palestine rally yesterday also.  

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5 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

Update on the title - It can't still be failing is it?

It's ALWAYS failing 

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8 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

What a friggin' mess.    Those blaming Trump, Biden or any other US president for this mess are out of line.   

There will never be peace in this region and neither the Palestinians nor Israelis are free from blame.   

The more I read about the goings on, the more I'm convinced that the root cause of all of this is the fight over East Jerusalem.  That is really the heart of the whole fight.  According to the UN and the international community, no one is currently "in charge" of the area.  There was supposed to be some international governing body, but none was ever formed.  In reality, Israel seized control in 1967 after the 6-day war and has been actually running it ever since.  However, the Palestinians (and by extension, the entire Muslim world) call this an illegal occupation and claim the area as their capital, but they have no control there and don't have a military or an actual official governing body over both the West Bank and Gaza.

The main reason for this recent flare up was the threat of evicting a few Arab families (I've read both 4 & 6, so not sure on total count here) and restoring the property to Jewish families who have legal claims dating back to 1947.  The Muslim world is up in arms about it because it cedes more control of East Jerusalem to Israel, they started protesting more and more and the protests became physical confrontations which then Hamas has used as an excuse to start firing 100's of rockets from the Gaza strip.  The Arab world refuses to cede control of the city (despite Israel's willingness to practically share it).  Israel refuses to cede control because they fear if they do, they will not be allowed access.

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3 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

The more I read about the goings on, the more I'm convinced that the root cause of all of this is the fight over East Jerusalem.  That is really the heart of the whole fight.  According to the UN and the international community, no one is currently "in charge" of the area.  There was supposed to be some international governing body, but none was ever formed.  In reality, Israel seized control in 1967 after the 6-day war and has been actually running it ever since.  However, the Palestinians (and by extension, the entire Muslim world) call this an illegal occupation and claim the area as their capital, but they have no control there and don't have a military or an actual official governing body over both the West Bank and Gaza.

The main reason for this recent flare up was the threat of evicting a few Arab families (I've read both 4 & 6, so not sure on total count here) and restoring the property to Jewish families who have legal claims dating back to 1947.  The Muslim world is up in arms about it because it cedes more control of East Jerusalem to Israel, they started protesting more and more and the protests became physical confrontations which then Hamas has used as an excuse to start firing 100's of rockets from the Gaza strip.  The Arab world refuses to cede control of the city (despite Israel's willingness to practically share it).  Israel refuses to cede control because they fear if they do, they will not be allowed access.

Ancient city.   Ancient rules.   You start a fight you might lose land.   

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