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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets (2 Viewers)
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Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm trying to figure out if this is near the Palestinian West Bank border (what I think is most likely) or some other point along the Israeli-Jordan border.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
"War is meant to kill people and destroy things" So if you are going to get into conflicts you better have the belly for it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Israel leveled the building holding the AP, Al-Jazeera and other media outlets today. Gave them an hour warning and then razed it to the ground.
The press was already sympathetic to the Palestinians and this will just push most of them to full blown Palestinian supporters. Israel is treating this like a war already and treating the Gaza strip as an enemy nation. I believe they will take complete control and occupy the entire Gaza region when this is over, leaving just pockets of the West Bank under full Palestinian control. They have refused all calls for a cease fire and are doing whatever they think is best.
The thing I'm most confused about is Egypt. They seem to be providing the bare minimum of support by only allowing the injured to cross their border from Gaza. It would be a good idea to evacuate the whole area, but Egypt won't allow it and a lot of Palestinians are simply refusing to leave. The Egyptians have had their border with Gaza closed for years now.
I read that their birth rates are astounding there, like some of the highest in the world. It has made Gaza City and the region as a whole very densely populated. The fact that they are reproducing like rabbits and Egypt won't let them leave seems odd to me. There appears to be a concerted effort to make the whole Gaza strip some kind of breeding ground for militant Muslims. Over 1 million of them are still living in the "refugee camps" opened in 1948 & 1967. There is essentially this belief that they will eventually move back into Israel. I don't think Israel is agreeing to that plan anytime soon.
The press was already sympathetic to the Palestinians and this will just push most of them to full blown Palestinian supporters. Israel is treating this like a war already and treating the Gaza strip as an enemy nation. I believe they will take complete control and occupy the entire Gaza region when this is over, leaving just pockets of the West Bank under full Palestinian control. They have refused all calls for a cease fire and are doing whatever they think is best.
The thing I'm most confused about is Egypt. They seem to be providing the bare minimum of support by only allowing the injured to cross their border from Gaza. It would be a good idea to evacuate the whole area, but Egypt won't allow it and a lot of Palestinians are simply refusing to leave. The Egyptians have had their border with Gaza closed for years now.
I read that their birth rates are astounding there, like some of the highest in the world. It has made Gaza City and the region as a whole very densely populated. The fact that they are reproducing like rabbits and Egypt won't let them leave seems odd to me. There appears to be a concerted effort to make the whole Gaza strip some kind of breeding ground for militant Muslims. Over 1 million of them are still living in the "refugee camps" opened in 1948 & 1967. There is essentially this belief that they will eventually move back into Israel. I don't think Israel is agreeing to that plan anytime soon.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am not that tuned in to this, but I dont understand this paragraph.
How is israel treating this like war, but the people firing rockets at them not?
Has the other side stopped firing at them and agreed to a cease fire?
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Or maybe Egypt just doesn't want the crazy seeping into their country. Keep the militant fundamentalists contained within their own borders.
timschochet
Footballguy
Israel has always received bipartisan support from this country, with the left and right firmly convinced that the Israelis are the good guys. The history of the Holocaust helped this along but also created a false, unpleasant meme: that any criticism of Israel was a form of anti-semitism.
Now all of this is ending. As Israel becomes more and more a nation that kills civilians, whether justified or not) while at the same time expanding its settlements under the leadership of it’s right wing political party, support for the Jewish State in this country is dividing between liberals and conservatives. And in today’s Democratic Party, old timers like Biden won’t be able to hold back the sea change of anti-Israel critics much longer, neither will the false charge of anti-semitism.
None of this is good for Israel. They need to finally dump Netanyahu and put in a moderate who will stop with the settlements before it’s too late. Otherwise they’re heading to become the Apartheid South Africa of the 21st century. Despite leftist rhetoric, that hasn’t happened yet. But if and when it does Israel is doomed.
Now all of this is ending. As Israel becomes more and more a nation that kills civilians, whether justified or not) while at the same time expanding its settlements under the leadership of it’s right wing political party, support for the Jewish State in this country is dividing between liberals and conservatives. And in today’s Democratic Party, old timers like Biden won’t be able to hold back the sea change of anti-Israel critics much longer, neither will the false charge of anti-semitism.
None of this is good for Israel. They need to finally dump Netanyahu and put in a moderate who will stop with the settlements before it’s too late. Otherwise they’re heading to become the Apartheid South Africa of the 21st century. Despite leftist rhetoric, that hasn’t happened yet. But if and when it does Israel is doomed.
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Redwes25
Footballguy
I think the bolded is a hot-button issue because of years of policy of displacing Arab families in favor of Jewish settlers. I don't have a details of this exact dispute so can't speak to it but think there has been a fundamental policy of displacing Palestanians and moving in settlers that goes back to 1948. Just go look at the history of Lod during the 1948 war as a great example (Lod is a current flashpoint of protests).Jayrod said:
Clearly the Arab world has not been blameless and are equal (if not more so at blame for never ending conflict especially for starting the 1948 war and not accepting the 1947 UN proposal (which they would love to have now)).
This current fighting has basically been an overaction by both sides. Isreal was clearly wrong in clearing the Al-Aqsa mosque with rubber bullets and stun grenades over protest regarding Isreal settlers. Hamas then launching rockets like crazy throughout Isreali was a gross overaction and current bombing by Isreali is the same. Every few years things just spiral out of control and Hamas and Benjamin Netanyahu are really the only beneficiaries as they both struggle to remain in power. Hamas needs the fighting to keep an iron grip on Gaza and Netanyahu needs it just as much to keep hanging on to Prime Minister as Isreal has been in political deadlock for years.
Jayrod
Footballguy
You make good points. The vast majority of the reports call it a clash or conflict or incident. No one is calling it a war. The sentiment is that because Israel is so much more capable, that they are responsible to stop first. I don't agree with that, but it is what most media is saying.parasaurolophus said:
Jayrod
Footballguy
This nails the majority of the current situation. A lot of these events are crazy escalations in a vacuum, and I'm not sure more context is enough to justify what has happened. Israel is losing a lot of their global support this week as Tim mentioned above.
zoonation
Footballguy
Yep. But when you kill 50+ children in one day, it is inevitable. This conflict is ridiculous. Shame on both of them.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Yeah, it's just such an impossible situation. Both sides have valid gripes, so neither side will yield. I put a heavier amount of blame on Israel for continuing to expand settlements through the years, knowing that doing so was just adding more tension and anger.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I think some Jews have the attitude that the Muslim world will hate them regardless, so F it, let's just take the whole thing. Others think it is their birthright as God's chosen people and others simply like the idea of being in charge of somewhere for a change (or some mixture of all that).
The Holocaust was just 80 years ago. There are still people alive that experienced that ####. I honestly can't blame them for being a little land grabby after that plus wars in 1947 and 1967 and non-stop threats by extremist Muslims both outside and within their own borders.
timschochet
Footballguy
It happened in part, because of Trump.
But putting that argument aside, of all the claims that fans of Donald Trump have made about him over the last few years, by far the most ridiculous is that he is “Mr. Tough Guy” when it comes to foreign affairs. Quite seriously I don’t believe we have ever in our nation’s history had a bigger wimp as President.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Putin's lapdog? Who has managed to literally turn the GOP pro-Russia. Bet you didn't have that on your bingo card. Especially rich is the meme that the world sees Biden as soft and that's why we had the pipeline hack. Again one of those I don't know if they are disingenuous or just plain ****.
Redwes25
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
In part it certainly is.
Trump and Kushner essentially gave Netanyahu a green light on new settlements in old Jerusalem , saying that unlike Obama and every other administration since 1967, the United States would no longer pressure the Israelis to refrain from perceived ethnic cleansing in the Jerusalem area. That’s why moving our embassy there was so unwise.
It was these new settlements, started during the Trump administration with his acquiescence (if not outright approval) which created the most recent tensions and led to this current outbreak of violence.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Dearborn MI is home to probbly the biggest ME population in the country. Ford World Heaquarters are located in Dearborn where I used to work. Having become friends with many people from the ME that statement is pretty accurate.
If people here think there is a white-black hate issue that is nothing compared to Muslim-Jews. The hate I have heard from Muslim-Jew talk is way..way worse. Some really believe Israel should be wiped off the earth and have no problem it is was. To the point you can`t even talk about it. Rashida Tlaib has been openly anti-semetic, the hate is ingrained into her soul. At times she tones it down a little for politcal reasons but make no mistake the hate is still there.
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Redwes25
Footballguy
Israel has been building settlements since the end of the 6 day war. No matter who was the last President they would have been building settlements. It is naive to think otherwise. Just look at Netanyahu's actions during 2009/2010 when he refused to stop building settlements in Jerusalem when he said he was trying to negotiate a peace process even with the whole world (and the U.S. President) condemned him for it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Israel has hesitated at times, even Netanyahu when we pressured him to refrain. Trump gave him a green light.
Redwes25
Footballguy
What a joke, you are too blinded by hatred of Trump to have any logical discussion around it. Go look at the entire time Netanyahu has been Prime Minister and he has not once stopped building settlements. He put a 10 month pause on Settlements (other than Jersusalem, which is the most controversial) but that is it. This dispute goes back decades and to go blame Trump for stuff happening now is stupid. I don't blame Biden for it either as this predates either one of them being President.
timschochet
Footballguy
This has nothing to do with my dislike for Trump (I don’t hate him.) I’d credit him if I could; I was talking to an Indian friend of mine the other day and I learned that Trump’s policy with regard to India and Pakistan was actually very good and an improvement on Obama’s which was more one-sided towards Pakistan. That’s something that hasn’t received much attention, so kudos go to Trump for that issue.
But this one is the opposite. Here Trump encouraged Netanyahu, it was significantly different not just from Obama but from all previous administrations since 1967, and therefore Trump must take part of the blame here IMO. I call it as I see it.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Trumps fault .......
jm192
Footballguy
https://www.foxnews.com/world/israeli-ex-ambassador-media-equating-israel-to-hamas-is-like-claiming-moral-equivalency-between-us-al-qaeda
I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this. Obviously it's from an Israeli source. But my understanding of the situation is Hamas, a terrorist organization, is blasting hundreds of rockets into Israel. And Israel has defended themselves. And they've started striking back--1 to slow down/weaken their attack capability and--2--to provide some degree of deterrence to future attacks. Which--I feel like the US would do if terrorists were launching rockets into our cities.
And I thought his take about the moral equivalent was well put. People are quick to say Israel killed 50 Palestenians. But Hamas is placing all of their military targets in heavily populated areas. So Israel is trapped into having casualties by firing back. Hamas could of course not put their weapons and other things NOT in heavily populated areas, but they choose to do so--and the media in turn is quick to say Israel should be concerned for the citizens. But Hamas isn't.
Feel free to educate me if I've gotten this wrong.
I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this. Obviously it's from an Israeli source. But my understanding of the situation is Hamas, a terrorist organization, is blasting hundreds of rockets into Israel. And Israel has defended themselves. And they've started striking back--1 to slow down/weaken their attack capability and--2--to provide some degree of deterrence to future attacks. Which--I feel like the US would do if terrorists were launching rockets into our cities.
And I thought his take about the moral equivalent was well put. People are quick to say Israel killed 50 Palestenians. But Hamas is placing all of their military targets in heavily populated areas. So Israel is trapped into having casualties by firing back. Hamas could of course not put their weapons and other things NOT in heavily populated areas, but they choose to do so--and the media in turn is quick to say Israel should be concerned for the citizens. But Hamas isn't.
Feel free to educate me if I've gotten this wrong.
jm192
Footballguy
https://www.foxnews.com/world/israeli-ex-ambassador-media-equating-israel-to-hamas-is-like-claiming-moral-equivalency-between-us-al-qaeda
I listened to this interview last night. This guy actually felt that Trump's actions towards Iran and helped provide stability. He fears a nuclear deal with Iran will only push back their nuclear capabilities by 2 or 3 years--and ultimately allow them to continue to further destabilize the region.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Assuming they boot the current occupants, that would be an ethnic cleansing, and a crime against humanity. If they annex and allow Palestinians to stay and don't grant them equal rights, that's apartheid. If they bring them in and grant them equal rights, it's not a Jewish state any longer.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
A very, very slow Annexation and ethnic cleansing (where there are Palestinians). Where no Palestinians are living, it is simple land annexation of a weaker country.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Why does the rate at which a crime against humanity occurs a consideration?
I think most places where no Palestinians live is due to occupying forces bullying them out.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
The scale always matters when it comes to holding entire nations accountable vs. individuals.
I don't know the situations of the settlement areas before they become settlement areas. I am not educated on that topic.
Jayrod
Footballguy
The Jews have been "ethnically cleansed" from the vast majority of Muslim nations around Israel before anybody gave a crap about that kind of stuff. Their homeland was taken from them centuries ago and they have been driven out of various nations for thousands of years, including the largest true genocide in history.
As a result, they are out for revenge and are asserting their authority whenever and wherever they can.
In 2018, they passed the "Nation State Law" which basically said Israel is Jewish, the national language is Hebrew and we are encouraging the expansion of Jewish settlements.
timschochet
Footballguy
As a grandchild of Holocaust victims, I was sort of hoping the words “Never forget” didn’t translate to “now we have the right to treat others badly.”
Jayrod
Footballguy
I don't think it is a settled fact that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing. I think they are engaging in what is more of a corporate style hostile takeover.
In the West Bank, they are attempting to lay claim to as much of the land as possible so as to both make the Palestinians uncomfortable (so they leave) and make it nearly impossible to toss Israel out without a full blown war. In the Gaza strip, they are simply exercise as much control as possible and cut off anything besides the very basics so as to make the Palestinians miserable so they want to leave. I don't think Israel is all that interested in possessing Gaza, but it is more of a strategy to divide Palestine and weaken them as a whole so they don't fight their efforts in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
To be considered "ethnic cleansing" I think there would need to be an actual direct effort to forcibly remove Arabs from the region, which I don't see as actually happening. They would like for the Palestinians to leave and are making things uncomfortable but there is no direct force applied to make them leave.
Here are my thoughts. If those civilians and children were Jewish, the government would not be blowing them up. It is not acceptable to kill civilians to take out terrorists in most civilized countries. I don't accept that the Israeli government is "trapped into having casualties". They have a choice. I understand it is a tough choice. I think they do more harm to their own cause by firing into populated areas than not. It seems that Palestinian children are worth less than Jewish children to the Israeli government. I realize this opinion will probably bring a firestorm, but that is what had been going through my mind and you asked for others thoughts. Please do not take this as an endorsement of Hamas or terrorism in any way.
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identikit
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorry but the Holocaust is brought up constantly as a justification for Israeli “tough behavior.” It’s been brought up a few times in this thread. It’s practically in every Netanyahu speech.
The Holocaust ended 76 years ago. It’s not a justification for anything.
identikit
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
quick-hands
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Past history does not allow for present day acts of revenge. That's not a good world to live in.
