What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Man and daughter killed when plane crashes into them on beach (1 Viewer)

Wingnut

Wingnut

Footballguy
Everyone is talking about this around here, and many are saying the pilot should have tried to puy the plane in the water instead of the beach. The water is only a couple feet deep directly off the beach, he wouldn't have lost the plane and 2 people wouldn't be dead.

Also, the man who died was a vet who did 2 tours of duty in the middle east, and was with his family at the beach celebrating his 9 year anniversary with his wife.

Should the pilot be charged?

SARASOTA A father was killed and his daughter seriously injured (uodate: she died from her injuries) while walking along a Florida beach when a small plane crash landed Sunday on the Gulf Coast only feet from the surf, authorities said.

Wendy Rose, a spokeswoman for the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office, said the pilot, Karl Kokomoor, 57, of Englewood, and his only passenger, David Theen, 60, also of Englewood, weren't hurt when the Piper aircraft lost power and touched down Sunday afternoon near Venice Beach.

"A man and one of his children who were walking on the beach were apparently injured by the plane," said Rose, adding the man was later pronounced dead.

Killed in the accident was Ommy Irizarry, 36, authorities said. His daughter, Oceana Irizarry, 9, was injured and airlifted to bay area hospital.

She said events began unfolding about 2:45 p.m. Sunday when the Venice airport received a distress call that the plane couldn't make it back to the airport.

"They were contacted by a pilot whose small plane was in distress. He knew he couldn't make it back to the airport and was going to try to land on the beach. And he did land at the edge of the water on the beach," Rose said.

Photos and video footage taken at the scene showed the Piper Cherokee, its nose pointed down and nearly touching white sands only feet from a gentle lapping surf. The left wing appeared to extend over the water's edge. A police boat was anchored nearby and a law enforcement officer stood close by. Bystanders gawked from a distance.

Kathleen Bergen, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, told the Associated Press in an email that the FAA was investigating. She said the plane reportedly lost power and landed on the sand near Caspersen Beach in Venice but she had no further details as of Sunday evening.

 
Saw this - feel awful for the family....freak accident - probably too much to expect the pilot to land in the water under those circumstance but really does suck that 2 innocents dad/daughter die while out for a stroll on the beach.

 
This is a terrible tragedy. Been following it on the local news. No good choices for the Pilot. I am sure he was also concerned for the life of his passenger and himself. I doubt he had ever experienced anything like this before as a pilot. I dont know if charges should be brought against him. I just pray for the family who just lost a husband/father and a daughter.

 
Saw this on CNN.com

The comments are like the guy in the summer camp thread. Everyone wants the pilot to fry. WTF?? The guy was CRASH LANDING.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah....bad flying IMO.....As you are descending you can gauge your trajectory....Hey it looks like I might hit those people walking on the beach...I'll just turn ever so slightly and miss them.

Edit to add: I don't think he should be charged.....He has to live with the fact that he killed two people.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ditka Butkus said:
Yeah....bad flying IMO.....As you are descending you can gauge your trajectory....Hey it looks like I might hit those people walking on the beach...I'll just turn ever so slightly and miss them.

Edit to add: I don't think he should be charged.....He has to live with the fact that he killed two people.
Click to expand...
Are you a pilot? How easy is it to turn a plane during a engineless descent? This isn't rhetorical. I truly don't know?

 
Bucky86 said:
Saw this on CNN.com

The comments are like the guy in the summer camp thread. Everyone wants the pilot to fry. WTF?? The guy was CRASH LANDING.
Click to expand...
He was gliding with no power...it wasn't a hard landing like a normal crash...hearing a lot of people say he could have easily steered 15 yards off the beach and that pilots are trained to land with no power...Hr was flying a plane...does he have a responsibility to ensure safety of people on the ground? If it comes down to himself or innocents, should he have taken the risk and not landed on a beach in the middle of the afternoon?

 
Wingnut said:
Bucky86 said:
Saw this on CNN.com

The comments are like the guy in the summer camp thread. Everyone wants the pilot to fry. WTF?? The guy was CRASH LANDING.
Click to expand...
He was gliding with no power...it wasn't a hard landing like a normal crash...hearing a lot of people say he could have easily steered 15 yards off the beach and that pilots are trained to land with no power...Hr was flying a plane...does he have a responsibility to ensure safety of people on the ground? If it comes down to himself or innocents, should he have taken the risk and not landed on a beach in the middle of the afternoon?
Click to expand...
That's why I asked how easy it was to steer a plane with no power.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
Yeah....bad flying IMO.....As you are descending you can gauge your trajectory....Hey it looks like I might hit those people walking on the beach...I'll just turn ever so slightly and miss them.

Edit to add: I don't think he should be charged.....He has to live with the fact that he killed two people.
Click to expand...
He was gliding... no sound as a warning to people...maybe more people were in the water to the left or more people laying on the beach to the right... I'm not sure he had many options and was just trying to set it down with minimum casualties and loss... just bad luck for the family... a tragedy all around

 
Gliding down with nose up you can't see in front of you.

landing ina little bit of water could grab the the landing gera and flip the plane.

that said I ddon't know if the pilot should face charges...but it is crappy all the way around

 
Wingnut said:
Bucky86 said:
Saw this on CNN.com

The comments are like the guy in the summer camp thread. Everyone wants the pilot to fry. WTF?? The guy was CRASH LANDING.
Click to expand...
He was gliding with no power...it wasn't a hard landing like a normal crash...hearing a lot of people say he could have easily steered 15 yards off the beach and that pilots are trained to land with no power...Hr was flying a plane...does he have a responsibility to ensure safety of people on the ground? If it comes down to himself or innocents, should he have taken the risk and not landed on a beach in the middle of the afternoon?
Click to expand...
He should have ditched it in the water. Yes I know he and his passenger may have been hurt but that's the deal. You don't set a plane down on what appears to have been a busy beach. You do have a responsibility to those on the ground IMO.

 
Wait, a police boat was nearby? Because they knew this is where the plane was going to crash land?! Why didn't they clear the beach?!

 
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
Well honestly what would he say? I saw them I just didn't give a crap? Should have put it in the water.

 
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.

 
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
This is quite possible...if you've got no power, you're pitching the plane up to get the most lift (longest glide distance). With the nose up like that, you really can't see in front of you. you can see off to the side some. He's flying a low-wing plane, so even that's limited. You basically look at the ground approaching at the 10-11 o'clock angle. If he hit this guy straight in front of him, he may have never even seen him.

 
i know planes are fast, but how did these people not have at least a few seconds of advance warning to sprint away?

I mean.. it seems like you'd notice a plane headed in your general direction that isn't looking good.

 
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.

 
That's good enough for me.

Sometimes things, no matter how tragic, are just accidents. His plane was broken. Do we know who the other person was in the plane?

What if it was his daughter? Do you really think he should crash land his plane in the ocean where he knows most likely it will break apart, or attempt the beach where he is confident he can skid it to a safe stop? It's not like he was doing crazy stunts and caused this on his own.

A tragic accident, but he should not be criminally charged.

 
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.

 
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.

 
Fat Nick said:
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
This is quite possible...if you've got no power, you're pitching the plane up to get the most lift (longest glide distance). With the nose up like that, you really can't see in front of you. you can see off to the side some. He's flying a low-wing plane, so even that's limited. You basically look at the ground approaching at the 10-11 o'clock angle. If he hit this guy straight in front of him, he may have never even seen him.
Click to expand...
What about landing one of these in shallow water? make sense?

 
Dentist said:
i know planes are fast, but how did these people not have at least a few seconds of advance warning to sprint away?

I mean.. it seems like you'd notice a plane headed in your general direction that isn't looking good.
Click to expand...
I'm shocked that nobody saw the plane. That just feeds more fire into my thought that there really were only a few people on the beach. If this beach was crowded and clearly a dangerous place to land, every gawker would be pointing and yelling. For this to happen, there had to be isolated groups of people, and nobody to see the plane and warn the man.

That said, if a plane was descending behind you on a beach and nobody saw it to warn you, I really doubt you'd ever know until it hit you. The ocean would be louder than a stalled airplane.

 
El Floppo said:
Fat Nick said:
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
This is quite possible...if you've got no power, you're pitching the plane up to get the most lift (longest glide distance). With the nose up like that, you really can't see in front of you. you can see off to the side some. He's flying a low-wing plane, so even that's limited. You basically look at the ground approaching at the 10-11 o'clock angle. If he hit this guy straight in front of him, he may have never even seen him.
Click to expand...
What about landing one of these in shallow water? make sense?
Click to expand...
I'm guessing it would have the same effect as riding a bike into sand. Your momentum would stop immediately and it would probably flip over. I'm guessing he chose the wet part of the beach because it would be more solid.

 
Bucky86 said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.
Click to expand...
it is not certain death to crash that plane into the ocean. But it certainly was fatal to someone to land it on the beach wasn't it?

 
El Floppo said:
Fat Nick said:
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
This is quite possible...if you've got no power, you're pitching the plane up to get the most lift (longest glide distance). With the nose up like that, you really can't see in front of you. you can see off to the side some. He's flying a low-wing plane, so even that's limited. You basically look at the ground approaching at the 10-11 o'clock angle. If he hit this guy straight in front of him, he may have never even seen him.
Click to expand...
What about landing one of these in shallow water? make sense?
Click to expand...
I mean...if I was presented with anything except a really crowded commercial beach, I'd land in the sand every day. If you land in any amount of water, you have to rely on bystanders (unskilled, unequipped) to get you out of the plane if you're incapacitated. Basically, even minor injuries are fatal in water...even a little bit. If the fixed gear clipped a breaker, the plane would pitch down and flip...if it landed on the roof, you could easily drown in 3-4 feet of water. If the plane had retractable gear, it'd be a little different because you'd have a smooth bottom and could come in a lot smoother.

Basically, the only way I'd put it in the water is if I KNEW I'd hit massive groups of people.

 
NCCommish said:
Bucky86 said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.
Click to expand...
it is not certain death to crash that plane into the ocean. But it certainly was fatal to someone to land it on the beach wasn't it?
Click to expand...
Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.

 
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree. Yes it would likely flip and if it was deep water I can see the problem. But a few yards offshore with lots of people around? I am going with more likely not fatal.

 
NCCommish said:
Bucky86 said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.
Click to expand...
it is not certain death to crash that plane into the ocean. But it certainly was fatal to someone to land it on the beach wasn't it?
Click to expand...
In hindsight, sure. But hindsight isn't how we should be evaluating this situation.

 
Fat Nick said:
El Floppo said:
Fat Nick said:
Wingnut said:
The pilot released a statement that said as the plane quickly descended he saw an area on the beach where he believed he could land, and he didn't see any people...it was only after he landed and got out of the plane that he realized he hit the man and his daughter, and he never saw them.
Click to expand...
This is quite possible...if you've got no power, you're pitching the plane up to get the most lift (longest glide distance). With the nose up like that, you really can't see in front of you. you can see off to the side some. He's flying a low-wing plane, so even that's limited. You basically look at the ground approaching at the 10-11 o'clock angle. If he hit this guy straight in front of him, he may have never even seen him.
Click to expand...
What about landing one of these in shallow water? make sense?
Click to expand...
I mean...if I was presented with anything except a really crowded commercial beach, I'd land in the sand every day. If you land in any amount of water, you have to rely on bystanders (unskilled, unequipped) to get you out of the plane if you're incapacitated. Basically, even minor injuries are fatal in water...even a little bit. If the fixed gear clipped a breaker, the plane would pitch down and flip...if it landed on the roof, you could easily drown in 3-4 feet of water. If the plane had retractable gear, it'd be a little different because you'd have a smooth bottom and could come in a lot smoother.

Basically, the only way I'd put it in the water is if I KNEW I'd hit massive groups of people.
Click to expand...
thanks- good perspective.

and my thoughts were along the lines of what bucky said above. pretty sure that plane would flip the second it hit even a couple feet of water.

 
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
Bucky86 said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.
Click to expand...
it is not certain death to crash that plane into the ocean. But it certainly was fatal to someone to land it on the beach wasn't it?
Click to expand...
Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.
Click to expand...
Are 2 people dead?

And I am not saying he should be charged or anything. I think he made the wrong decision. This comes from growing up in a family with several commercial pilots and a couple of military pilots.

 
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree. Yes it would likely flip and if it was deep water I can see the problem. But a few yards offshore with lots of people around? I am going with more likely not fatal.
Click to expand...
lots of people?

I thought he didn't see anybody on the beach. if so- why land the plane in the water where it's even less likely to see somebody wading or swimming?

 
I normally agree with NcCommish, but I can't help but strongly disagree with everything he is saying here.

 
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree. Yes it would likely flip and if it was deep water I can see the problem. But a few yards offshore with lots of people around? I am going with more likely not fatal.
Click to expand...
I guess we'll agree to disagree.

My view is you've got a small plane with fixed landing gear, and Pipers typically have ONE door. You end up upside down in the surf, with whatever injuries you've sustained from the impact in a plane with 1 door, and I don't like those odds.

Further, if he didn't see this guy on the beach, why would he see someone in the water? It's just as likely he could've hit someone in the water.

 
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
Bucky86 said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Tom Servo said:
Someone needs to light the Fat Nick bat signal.
Click to expand...
You rang!

You can't blame the pilot here...and I'm not just saying that because I am one. Are pilots trained to land without power? Sure...but that doesn't mean we can do it in our sleep, and you never practice it for real all the way to the ground.

You look for the safest place to land. Basically, that's an area without obstructions. No trees, poles, houses, etc. You want to be able to slide without hitting anything solid. In this case, this guy chose a beach. Reasonable choice. Could he have turned to not hit the man? Well...it depends. If the man was walking in a straight, consistent line, and the pilot saw him 100 yards up...maybe. If the guy was playing on the beach or just walking randomly, the pilot likely had no idea where he would be. This plane was likely silent. It's gliding in. It made NO noise. It's just as likely that the pilot planned a straight line descent to an open part of the beach and the man walked into his way.

Planes gliding in are usually near stall speed when they land so as to have the slowest possible impact. At that speed, turning is very difficult. You can turn if you can sacrifice altitude for some additional speed, but once you're close to the ground, there's no altitude to sacrifice and he likely had little choice.

It's sad that people think this guy somehow wanted to crash into this guy and kill him, or could have somehow easily avoided him but chose not to. It's an emergency. It's tragic, but it's not a crime.
Click to expand...
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
What if he was looking out for the people on the ground? His only choice was certain death crashing into the ocean, or a spot of beach that appeared clear? Fat Nick already said it would be nearly impossible to turn the plane while gliding down.
Click to expand...
it is not certain death to crash that plane into the ocean. But it certainly was fatal to someone to land it on the beach wasn't it?
Click to expand...
Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.
Click to expand...
Are 2 people dead?

And I am not saying he should be charged or anything. I think he made the wrong decision. This comes from growing up in a family with several commercial pilots and a couple of military pilots.
Click to expand...
He made the best decision with what he had. He KNOWS his plane is breaking apart if he lands it in the water.

 
I'm going to side with Fat Nick on this one. If you can't see anyone on the beach, you have to take your chances that it's barren and land that plane.

 
El Floppo said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree. Yes it would likely flip and if it was deep water I can see the problem. But a few yards offshore with lots of people around? I am going with more likely not fatal.
Click to expand...
lots of people?

I thought he didn't see anybody on the beach. if so- why land the plane in the water where it's even less likely to see somebody wading or swimming?
Click to expand...
It's a popular beach for shelling. There were plenty of people on it.

 
Bucky86 said:
I normally agree with NcCommish, but I can't help but strongly disagree with everything he is saying here.
Click to expand...
That's cool. No hard feelings or anything. To me if there is even a remote chance you are going to crash the plane in such a way as to injure or kill other people you are the one who takes the chance with injury/death not the other people,

 
NCCommish said:
El Floppo said:
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
NCCommish said:
I am going to go with the ocean is a lot bigger than the beach and that IMO the largest responsibility a pilot has in these situations are to people on the ground. The water was the appropriate ditching spot.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with you that the pilot has a responsibility to the people on the ground...but if he truly didn't see anyone, or even saw a smattering of people who weren't in the way, the beach is the safest option. Fixed landing gear planes would fare very poorly in a water landing, so water would be a virtual death sentence.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to disagree. Yes it would likely flip and if it was deep water I can see the problem. But a few yards offshore with lots of people around? I am going with more likely not fatal.
Click to expand...
lots of people?

I thought he didn't see anybody on the beach. if so- why land the plane in the water where it's even less likely to see somebody wading or swimming?
Click to expand...
It's a popular beach for shelling. There were plenty of people on it.
Click to expand...
How many people were on that particular part of the beach? Was this guy from that area? Did he know exactly what beach he was flying over and that it was used for shelling? Just don't see how anyone can say he should've known better.

 
NCCommish said:
Fat Nick said:
Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.
Click to expand...
Are 2 people dead?

And I am not saying he should be charged or anything. I think he made the wrong decision. This comes from growing up in a family with several commercial pilots and a couple of military pilots.
Click to expand...
Sure...in this case, 2 people are dead. Hindsight is 20/20. Ask the guy if he'd do it differently with hindsight, and I think he might say he'd ditch elsewhere...but I don't think he made an unreasonable decision.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ministry of Pain
So I bought into a "Craft" Beer n Wine store with a Drive-Thru
2
Replies
54
Views
2K
parasaurolophus
parasaurolophus
rustycolts
So I saw Bob Marleys ghost at the airport today
Replies
38
Views
1K
Hot Diggity Dog
H
dkp993
United Flight 93 Todd Beamer Call Transcript -Must Read.
Replies
23
Views
1K
belljr
belljr

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top