ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Is this thread serious or shtick?
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World War II (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
RudiStein
*Not really a bail bondsman
I thought it was shtick. Guess I was wrong.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
"Taking the internet too seriously" can also be considered shtick. It's a fine line.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
WHY DID HITLER CHOOSE TO ATTACK RUSSIA, WHEN HE HADN'T YET BEATEN BRITAIN?
First of all, the USSR had always been the target for Hitler. He believed Germany needed "living room", and that was available to the east. He had hoped for peace with Britain, but ran up against Churchill there. His effort in the Battle of Britain had been unsuccessful, and it was obvious to him and his generals that an invasion of Britain was doomed to failure.
So, perhaps there was another way. If he could defeat the Soviet Union, then it would become obvious to Britain that they needed to make peace with Germany. He thought the Soviet Union was weak, was aware of the purge of the officer corps which had taken place in the 1930's and he had the experience of France which had collapsed under the Blitzkrieg. So he thought it was ripe for the plucking. In addition, he was seduced by the idea of seizing Russia's economic assets rather than on the overall strategic objective of crushing the Soviet armed forces. To paraphrase something from another war: "When you have them by the balls, their economic assets will follow."
Thus, his culminating strategic mistake.
By the way, he also knew that Stalin was widely unpopular, and had the experience of Russia's collapse during WWI, which is why the Communists were able to come to power. I believe he felt the government would collapse.
First of all, the USSR had always been the target for Hitler. He believed Germany needed "living room", and that was available to the east. He had hoped for peace with Britain, but ran up against Churchill there. His effort in the Battle of Britain had been unsuccessful, and it was obvious to him and his generals that an invasion of Britain was doomed to failure.
So, perhaps there was another way. If he could defeat the Soviet Union, then it would become obvious to Britain that they needed to make peace with Germany. He thought the Soviet Union was weak, was aware of the purge of the officer corps which had taken place in the 1930's and he had the experience of France which had collapsed under the Blitzkrieg. So he thought it was ripe for the plucking. In addition, he was seduced by the idea of seizing Russia's economic assets rather than on the overall strategic objective of crushing the Soviet armed forces. To paraphrase something from another war: "When you have them by the balls, their economic assets will follow."
Thus, his culminating strategic mistake.
By the way, he also knew that Stalin was widely unpopular, and had the experience of Russia's collapse during WWI, which is why the Communists were able to come to power. I believe he felt the government would collapse.
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timschochet
Footballguy
There is a problem here, which you referred to earlier, but which we should now address in greater detail. I have mentioned the Einsatzgruppen, the Green Folder, the treatment of Prisoners of War. How different might the war have been if Hitler, taking advantage of the dislike of Stalin, had chosen to treat the people who were being invaded decently? We know that there are stories, unconfirmed, that the Ukranians were willing to welcome the Germans with open arms as liberators. Could the Nazis have conceivably recruited them into forming a much larger army? Would this have made a decisive difference?I'm interested to get some opinion on this.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Atlantic Charter
On August 14, 1941, Franklin Roosevelt sailed to Newfoundland at met secretly with Winston Churchill aboard the battleship Prince of Wales. This was the first of the great summits of World War II. It was not the first time the two had ever met; FDR as Assistant Secretary of the Navy had met Churchill during the First World War- however, the Prime Minister had no recollection of this, much to Churchill's chagrin.
The British were hoping that America was entering to the war, but this was not to be. However, FDR was willing to commit America firmly on the side of the Allies to a much greater extent: first, he began outright convoying. By doing do, he was daring the Germans to attack American shipping in the Atlantic. In fact, Doenitz was all in favor of this, but Hitler held off. He realized that this was what Roosevelt wanted- a deliberate act of war that would unify the American people. Hitler wanted to wait until the Russian problem was resolved, so he ordered his U-Boats to take no action.
(Over the next couple of months, FDR kept raising the stakes. Iceland was occupied by American troops. Admiral King declared that the United States had sovereignity over the entire Atlantic ocean! Still Hitler bided his time.)
FDR also committed Lend Lease supplies to Russia, and though Churchill insisted that England and North Africa be given first priority, this was rejected. It was agreed that the British and Americans would speak as a unified voice against Japan, which was at this time menacing to attack. (Much more on this coming up.)
Finally, the two powers agreed on a joint statement of war aims, which became the Atlantic Charter, and the blueprint for the world we have today. It's ironic to note that most of it's aims (which were never formally written down) declaring the rights of all human beings to freedom (including freedom from want) were an attack not only upon Nazism but also capitalism and especially the British Empire. Churchill had always said he had not become Prime Minister to oversee the dissolution of the Empire, but that's exactly what he did.
The eight points were:
No territorial gains were to be sought by the United States or the United Kingdom.
Territorial adjustments must be in accord with the wishes of the peoples concerned.
All peoples had a right to self-determination.
Trade barriers were to be lowered.
There was to be global economic cooperation and advancement of social welfare.
Freedom from want and fear.
Freedom of the seas.
Disarmament of aggressor nations, postwar common disarmament.
If "freedom from want" expresses an essentially socialistic solution for the world, at least this was made up for by the lowering of trade barriers, which was recognized as a cause for most wars. The Atlantic Charter was the forerunner of the United Nations, and as I wrote above, the world we recognize today.
On August 14, 1941, Franklin Roosevelt sailed to Newfoundland at met secretly with Winston Churchill aboard the battleship Prince of Wales. This was the first of the great summits of World War II. It was not the first time the two had ever met; FDR as Assistant Secretary of the Navy had met Churchill during the First World War- however, the Prime Minister had no recollection of this, much to Churchill's chagrin.
The British were hoping that America was entering to the war, but this was not to be. However, FDR was willing to commit America firmly on the side of the Allies to a much greater extent: first, he began outright convoying. By doing do, he was daring the Germans to attack American shipping in the Atlantic. In fact, Doenitz was all in favor of this, but Hitler held off. He realized that this was what Roosevelt wanted- a deliberate act of war that would unify the American people. Hitler wanted to wait until the Russian problem was resolved, so he ordered his U-Boats to take no action.
(Over the next couple of months, FDR kept raising the stakes. Iceland was occupied by American troops. Admiral King declared that the United States had sovereignity over the entire Atlantic ocean! Still Hitler bided his time.)
FDR also committed Lend Lease supplies to Russia, and though Churchill insisted that England and North Africa be given first priority, this was rejected. It was agreed that the British and Americans would speak as a unified voice against Japan, which was at this time menacing to attack. (Much more on this coming up.)
Finally, the two powers agreed on a joint statement of war aims, which became the Atlantic Charter, and the blueprint for the world we have today. It's ironic to note that most of it's aims (which were never formally written down) declaring the rights of all human beings to freedom (including freedom from want) were an attack not only upon Nazism but also capitalism and especially the British Empire. Churchill had always said he had not become Prime Minister to oversee the dissolution of the Empire, but that's exactly what he did.
The eight points were:
No territorial gains were to be sought by the United States or the United Kingdom.
Territorial adjustments must be in accord with the wishes of the peoples concerned.
All peoples had a right to self-determination.
Trade barriers were to be lowered.
There was to be global economic cooperation and advancement of social welfare.
Freedom from want and fear.
Freedom of the seas.
Disarmament of aggressor nations, postwar common disarmament.
If "freedom from want" expresses an essentially socialistic solution for the world, at least this was made up for by the lowering of trade barriers, which was recognized as a cause for most wars. The Atlantic Charter was the forerunner of the United Nations, and as I wrote above, the world we recognize today.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I think there were two things which could have happened if he had treated captured people humanely. The first is, as you mentioned, that many could have been enticed into joining the German Army. Not necessarily as fighters, but as backups and support troops. But the second is that it would have encouraged some units in the Soviet Army to desert en masse. These units could have been as big as battalion size. Of course, this is all speculative, and we'll never know. But the depth of revulsion against Stalin in the Ukraine and amongst the peasants in Russia was intense.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
What does this mean?
Statcruncher
Footballguy
Dude you can stop trying, your tool meter is already pegged at 11.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
And most tool meters go up to ten?
RudiStein
*Not really a bail bondsman
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
He saw the name Dušan Popov and assumed that you made it upWhat's with all the name calling? I made a legit post.
This is not the same Reuben James from the Kenny Rogers song...
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Right. It's a Woody Guthrie song. The Reuben James was named after a sailor who saved the life of Stephen Decatur during the boarding of the Philadelphia which was being held by Barbary pirates.The Reuben James was escorting a convoy. In those days, prior to the US joining the war, convoys were escorted as far as Iceland by the US Navy, where they handed over responsibility to the Royal Navy,
RudiStein
*Not really a bail bondsman
I very well could have. Hell, Popov himself made a bunch of stuff up.He saw the name Dušan Popov and assumed that you made it upWhat's with all the name calling? I made a legit post.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
.....
self-determination = right to choose your own government...interesting that it was in there because Britain controlled colony states all around the world that were subject to the rule of Britain, and not their own government.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Yeah, that's a tough one to wrap your head around
Ozymandias
Footballguy
THAT MYSTERIOUS FIGURE, HARRY HOPKINS
Perhaps no one had more influence in bringing the US and Britain together during the war than Harry Hopkins. Hopkins had been brought to Washington as the administrator for the New Deal, and when Britain was going it alone in the early stages of the war, he was sent to Britain by Roosevelt (who trusted him profoundly), for an accurate assessment of where Britain stood. Churchill gave him the red carpet treatment. He flew with him to visit the Royal Navy, he took him on a tour of the facilities, he had him talk to Londoners during the Blitz. At the end, there was a dinner for him, and Harry Hopkins brought Churchill to tears with his words from the Old Testament: "I suppose you wish to know what I am going to say to President Roosevelt on my return. Well I am going to quote to you one verse from the Book of Books ... "Whither thou goest, I will go and where thou lodgest I will lodge, thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God."
Hopkins became the administrator of Lend Lease. He was to serve Roosevelt on other missions, to Moscow, etc. But if there was any one person who brought those two great leaders of the free world together, it was Harry Hopkins. Later on he would be accused of being a Soviet sympathizer, etc. But his contributions were undeniable.
Perhaps no one had more influence in bringing the US and Britain together during the war than Harry Hopkins. Hopkins had been brought to Washington as the administrator for the New Deal, and when Britain was going it alone in the early stages of the war, he was sent to Britain by Roosevelt (who trusted him profoundly), for an accurate assessment of where Britain stood. Churchill gave him the red carpet treatment. He flew with him to visit the Royal Navy, he took him on a tour of the facilities, he had him talk to Londoners during the Blitz. At the end, there was a dinner for him, and Harry Hopkins brought Churchill to tears with his words from the Old Testament: "I suppose you wish to know what I am going to say to President Roosevelt on my return. Well I am going to quote to you one verse from the Book of Books ... "Whither thou goest, I will go and where thou lodgest I will lodge, thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God."
Hopkins became the administrator of Lend Lease. He was to serve Roosevelt on other missions, to Moscow, etc. But if there was any one person who brought those two great leaders of the free world together, it was Harry Hopkins. Later on he would be accused of being a Soviet sympathizer, etc. But his contributions were undeniable.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
By the way, this was Roosevelt's way of helping the British, even though the Neutrality Act prohibited him from doing so. In April 1941, Roosevelt extended the Pan American Security Zone eastward (the Pan American Security Zone had been established to protect merchant ships in the vecinity of the United States) all the way to Iceland. Canadian and then American warships protected ships bound for England. That was why the Reuben James was where she was.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Atomic Bomb
Since Albert Einstein's letter to FDR in August of 1939, experiments had been conducted all over university laboratories on the elements U-235 and U-238 to see if either or both could achieve a chain reaction necessary for a bomb. Some of these scientists were already reluctant- there was a tendency to distrust the military, and they were discussing the release of energy 20 million times greater than the explosive force of TNT. There was also some worry that once the chain reaction was started, it could not be stopped- the actually possibility of destroying all of civilization for these men was very real. This view was best expressed by the genius young scientist Volney Wilson from the University of Chicago. He stated that the atomic bomb could be made to work, then asked to be removed from the project- "It's far too destructive- I don't want anything to do with it."
However, Einstein, Teller, Fermi, Szilard and others who were refugees from the Nazis and Fascists had a firm goal- the technology had to be discovered before the Germans. They were aware that the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Berlin had hundreds of scientists working on this same project, including the brilliant Werner Heisenberg. As Fermi stated, "It is no longer acceptable to be neutral."
At first, in March 1940, scientists at the University of Minnesota discovered that U.238 contained a "friendly cannibal" that swallowed reaction- hence it could not be used for a nuclear bomb. It seemed for a short time that this fact would end all further work. But then it was discovered that if pure U.235 could be extracted from U.238, it could be used to make a bomb by bringing about an uncontrolled chain reaction with fast neutrons.
But how to get U.235 in sizeable quantities? In 1940, there were no good answers. But in 1941 scientists at the University of California under the supervision of Dr. Glenn Seaborg began bombarding U.238 with neutrons of intermediate speed. This produced a new element unknown to nature- eventually named plutonium. Here was the breakthrough. Plutonium had the same fissionable qualities as U235. And, if the United States government committed itself to an all-out effort, enough plutonium could be manufactured to create a bomb, or more than one.
Dr. Ernest Lawrence put these facts down in a report sent to FDR, and shortly thereafter the Manhattan Project was formed.
Since Albert Einstein's letter to FDR in August of 1939, experiments had been conducted all over university laboratories on the elements U-235 and U-238 to see if either or both could achieve a chain reaction necessary for a bomb. Some of these scientists were already reluctant- there was a tendency to distrust the military, and they were discussing the release of energy 20 million times greater than the explosive force of TNT. There was also some worry that once the chain reaction was started, it could not be stopped- the actually possibility of destroying all of civilization for these men was very real. This view was best expressed by the genius young scientist Volney Wilson from the University of Chicago. He stated that the atomic bomb could be made to work, then asked to be removed from the project- "It's far too destructive- I don't want anything to do with it."
However, Einstein, Teller, Fermi, Szilard and others who were refugees from the Nazis and Fascists had a firm goal- the technology had to be discovered before the Germans. They were aware that the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Berlin had hundreds of scientists working on this same project, including the brilliant Werner Heisenberg. As Fermi stated, "It is no longer acceptable to be neutral."
At first, in March 1940, scientists at the University of Minnesota discovered that U.238 contained a "friendly cannibal" that swallowed reaction- hence it could not be used for a nuclear bomb. It seemed for a short time that this fact would end all further work. But then it was discovered that if pure U.235 could be extracted from U.238, it could be used to make a bomb by bringing about an uncontrolled chain reaction with fast neutrons.
But how to get U.235 in sizeable quantities? In 1940, there were no good answers. But in 1941 scientists at the University of California under the supervision of Dr. Glenn Seaborg began bombarding U.238 with neutrons of intermediate speed. This produced a new element unknown to nature- eventually named plutonium. Here was the breakthrough. Plutonium had the same fissionable qualities as U235. And, if the United States government committed itself to an all-out effort, enough plutonium could be manufactured to create a bomb, or more than one.
Dr. Ernest Lawrence put these facts down in a report sent to FDR, and shortly thereafter the Manhattan Project was formed.
timschochet
Footballguy
North Africa November, 1941
Claude Auchinleck had a fine reputation in the Indian army, but he knew nothing about tanks. He got into trouble almost from the minute he landed in North Africa, because Churchill, who had dumped Wavell for this soldier, demanded a victory against Rommel right away. Churchill summoned Auchinleck to London for consultations, and there, Auchinleck refused to budge until he was prepared. He told Churchill to his face that Operation Crusader, as the new attack was to be known, would not begin until November 1. Furthermore, Alan Cunningham, Auchinleck's choice, would be in command, not General Wilson, Churchill's choice. This was in part a result of the friction between the Indian Army and the Regular Army, which I referenced much earlier in this thread. If Churchill didn't like this, Auchinleck would resign. Churchill didn't like it, but decided to demur to the man on the scene.
Sir Alan Cunningham was a small man, dashing, a hero of the British newspapers for his defeat of the Duke of Aosta in East Africa. In truth, it hadn't been much of a conquest, because the Italians, true to form, had fled when attacked. Unlike O'Connor who he would replace, Cunningham knew very little about tanks. But by now, thanks to Lend-Lease, his forces were loaded. In addition to his Anzac, South African, and English troops, he had four armored brigades, and a fifth shipped into Tobruk by sea. These were mostly American Stuart tanks, called Honeys because of their speed and maneuverability. He also had five motorized infantry divisions. And the British still had control of Tobruk.
Meanwhile, Rommel received almost no reinforcements and no additional tanks. The invasion of Russia was taking up all of the Wehrmacht's available men and weaponry. He was forced to improvise. He had three unreliable Italian divisions. In the air he possessed 120 aircraft and 200 Italian, in comparison to Cunnigham's 700. In armor, Rommel had only 174 German tanks and 146 Italian tanks (these were obsolete, of little value) against 700 British tanks of which 200 were heavies. In short, every number favored the British. Rommel's only advantage was that 2/3rds of his antitank guns were the new long barrelled 50mm cannon, made by Krupp, with about 70 percent better penetration than his old 37's.
And of course, there was one other advantage for the Germans: Erwin Rommel himself.
Claude Auchinleck had a fine reputation in the Indian army, but he knew nothing about tanks. He got into trouble almost from the minute he landed in North Africa, because Churchill, who had dumped Wavell for this soldier, demanded a victory against Rommel right away. Churchill summoned Auchinleck to London for consultations, and there, Auchinleck refused to budge until he was prepared. He told Churchill to his face that Operation Crusader, as the new attack was to be known, would not begin until November 1. Furthermore, Alan Cunningham, Auchinleck's choice, would be in command, not General Wilson, Churchill's choice. This was in part a result of the friction between the Indian Army and the Regular Army, which I referenced much earlier in this thread. If Churchill didn't like this, Auchinleck would resign. Churchill didn't like it, but decided to demur to the man on the scene.
Sir Alan Cunningham was a small man, dashing, a hero of the British newspapers for his defeat of the Duke of Aosta in East Africa. In truth, it hadn't been much of a conquest, because the Italians, true to form, had fled when attacked. Unlike O'Connor who he would replace, Cunningham knew very little about tanks. But by now, thanks to Lend-Lease, his forces were loaded. In addition to his Anzac, South African, and English troops, he had four armored brigades, and a fifth shipped into Tobruk by sea. These were mostly American Stuart tanks, called Honeys because of their speed and maneuverability. He also had five motorized infantry divisions. And the British still had control of Tobruk.
Meanwhile, Rommel received almost no reinforcements and no additional tanks. The invasion of Russia was taking up all of the Wehrmacht's available men and weaponry. He was forced to improvise. He had three unreliable Italian divisions. In the air he possessed 120 aircraft and 200 Italian, in comparison to Cunnigham's 700. In armor, Rommel had only 174 German tanks and 146 Italian tanks (these were obsolete, of little value) against 700 British tanks of which 200 were heavies. In short, every number favored the British. Rommel's only advantage was that 2/3rds of his antitank guns were the new long barrelled 50mm cannon, made by Krupp, with about 70 percent better penetration than his old 37's.
And of course, there was one other advantage for the Germans: Erwin Rommel himself.
timschochet
Footballguy
Before I continue with Rommel, I'm just curious if anyone besides me sees a parallel between Rommel's campaigns and those of Robert E. Lee? Certainly in terms of personalities, the two men had very little in common, but what strikes me is that both were continually faced with greater numbers, sometimes overwhelming, on the opposite side- never once, it seems, did either man ever have the numerical advantage in their various battles. Yet somehow they both kept winning crucial engagements- through surprise, willingness to act as opposed to caution on the other side, and understanding of new technology. Both men were finally defeated when they were overwhelmed by simply too much material.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Both men were popular with their men and on their respective home fronts, they were also both very respected by their opposition.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yes, indeed there are similarities, not least in the opponents they faced. Invariably, the opponents were cautious, more afraid of losing than eager to win. However, I am not sure that Rommel had the quality of Lee's subordinates (some of them, anyway).
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timschochet
Footballguy
Operation Crusader Part One
Auchinleck insisted on delaying tha attack until ALL of the troops had arrived and were fully trained. This meant the assault would not begin until November 15, and this irritated Churchill to the extreme. He cabled: "It is impossible to explain to Parliament and the nation how it is that our Middle East armies here had to stand for four and a half months without engaging the enemy."
Meanwhile, Cunningham had worked out his battle plan. He needed to confront Rommel and win a tank battle. The British armor under General Norrie would attempt to get around Rommel's right at Gabr Saleh. The infantry would pin down the German left until the tank battle was won. Then, in conjunction with the armor, it would roll up the infantry, and that would be the end of Rommel. What was odd about this battle plan was, by first trying to get around Rommel's right, Cunningham, the attacker, was proposing to give up the initiative to Rommel, the defender. Norrie's tanks were ordered to halt once they reached Gabr Saleh and await Rommel's inevitable attack, which would then allow Norrie to maneuver. Norrie protested: how do we KNOW that Rommel will attack? Gabr Saleh has no military significance. Cunningham argued that of course Rommel would attack; he always attacked when presented with such opportunities. The two Generals argued, never a good sign going into battle. Ultimately Cunningham asserted his authority and his plan was executed.
Cunningham, however, was increasingly beset with self-doubt about the entire plan. Had he been wrong? Was Norrie right? Behind the self confident facade, he was a very nervous man with stomach problems and panic attacks. It did not help that he received this message from Churchill the night before the battle:
For the first time British and Empire troops will meet the German with an ample supply of equipment in modern weapons of all kinds. The battle will affect the whole course of the war. Now is the time to strike the hardest blow yet struck for final victory, home, and freedom. The Desert Army may add a page to history that will rank with Blenheim and Waterloo. The eyes of all nations are upon you. All our hearts are with you. May God uphold the right!
Churchill, an incurable romantic, believed that everyone saw war the same way he did: a gallant, exciting adventure where good faced off against evil. It goes without saying that he intended this message would completely inspire Cunningham into great deeds. In fact, it had the opposite effect: it completely freaked him out. Cunningham had had no idea Crusader was such an important battle. Now he worried even more about what Rommel might do. Suppose Rommel decided to ignore the armor and attack the infantry instead? To prevent this, he posted one of the four armored brigades as an infantry flank guard, and this further dismayed Norrie.
Auchinleck insisted on delaying tha attack until ALL of the troops had arrived and were fully trained. This meant the assault would not begin until November 15, and this irritated Churchill to the extreme. He cabled: "It is impossible to explain to Parliament and the nation how it is that our Middle East armies here had to stand for four and a half months without engaging the enemy."
Meanwhile, Cunningham had worked out his battle plan. He needed to confront Rommel and win a tank battle. The British armor under General Norrie would attempt to get around Rommel's right at Gabr Saleh. The infantry would pin down the German left until the tank battle was won. Then, in conjunction with the armor, it would roll up the infantry, and that would be the end of Rommel. What was odd about this battle plan was, by first trying to get around Rommel's right, Cunningham, the attacker, was proposing to give up the initiative to Rommel, the defender. Norrie's tanks were ordered to halt once they reached Gabr Saleh and await Rommel's inevitable attack, which would then allow Norrie to maneuver. Norrie protested: how do we KNOW that Rommel will attack? Gabr Saleh has no military significance. Cunningham argued that of course Rommel would attack; he always attacked when presented with such opportunities. The two Generals argued, never a good sign going into battle. Ultimately Cunningham asserted his authority and his plan was executed.
Cunningham, however, was increasingly beset with self-doubt about the entire plan. Had he been wrong? Was Norrie right? Behind the self confident facade, he was a very nervous man with stomach problems and panic attacks. It did not help that he received this message from Churchill the night before the battle:
For the first time British and Empire troops will meet the German with an ample supply of equipment in modern weapons of all kinds. The battle will affect the whole course of the war. Now is the time to strike the hardest blow yet struck for final victory, home, and freedom. The Desert Army may add a page to history that will rank with Blenheim and Waterloo. The eyes of all nations are upon you. All our hearts are with you. May God uphold the right!
Churchill, an incurable romantic, believed that everyone saw war the same way he did: a gallant, exciting adventure where good faced off against evil. It goes without saying that he intended this message would completely inspire Cunningham into great deeds. In fact, it had the opposite effect: it completely freaked him out. Cunningham had had no idea Crusader was such an important battle. Now he worried even more about what Rommel might do. Suppose Rommel decided to ignore the armor and attack the infantry instead? To prevent this, he posted one of the four armored brigades as an infantry flank guard, and this further dismayed Norrie.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
As I said, afraid of losing.
timschochet
Footballguy
Operation Crusader Part Two
Rommel did indeed meet Cunningham's forces- just not where Cunningham was expecting. For the first couple of days he used his light brigades brilliantly to taunt the British into advancing foward ever more. Several small engagements were fought, and the news reports were hopeful for the British. Then Rommel laid down a brilliant trap. He moved the bulk of his armor towards the British lines- seemingly exactly what Cunningham had hoped for- but at the same time wheeled his 50mm antitank guns into position around the British flanks, mostly deployed in hollows.
What followed was a long two day tank battle which to this day is confusing to describe, because most of the participants on both sides weren't exactly sure what was happening. Clouds of dust and black smoke filled the air. Sandstorms and rainstorms were both prevalent. Confusion was the common denominator. Orders, counterorders, battle groups being sent off in the wrong direction. All sides apparently fought with great bravery, even the Italians. Yet when it was over, the antitank guns that Rommel had placed so cleverly ahead of his troops made the difference. The British 8th Army was trouble, and Norrie's armored units were chewed to pieces. As Rommel pointed out after the battle, "What difference does it make if you have two tanks to my one, when you spread them out and let me smash them in detail? You presented me with three brigades in succession."
Cunningham was unnerved at this, though the battle was not yet a loss for the British. If Cunningham had simply committed his reserves at this point, all at once and not piecemeal, his numbers would have overwhelmed Rommel. Yet he was hesitant, and Rommel sensed this. Next, Rommel gave an order that only enhanced his legend as one of the greatest generals who ever lived: he removed his panzers from the battle and thrust them forward at Cunningham's reserves. This was a major gamble designed to completely break Cunningham's will. It almost worked. Cunningham was panicking, and ready to retreat. Had he done so, and had Rommel been able to grab enough fuel, the Afrika Korps might very well have bypassed Tobruk and headed straight for the Suez Canal, and the British position in Egypt would have been destroyed.
But here Auchinleck saved the day. Flying into Cunningham's headquarters, he ordered the shaken General, "You will continue to attack the enemy relentlessly using all your resources even to the last tank." Like Rommel, Auchinleck was also gambling- that at this point Rommel was so low in tanks and fuel that this new assault was all a tremendous bluff. The "Auk" now took personal command. Of Rommel he said, "He is making a desperate effort, but he will not get very far."
Rommel did indeed meet Cunningham's forces- just not where Cunningham was expecting. For the first couple of days he used his light brigades brilliantly to taunt the British into advancing foward ever more. Several small engagements were fought, and the news reports were hopeful for the British. Then Rommel laid down a brilliant trap. He moved the bulk of his armor towards the British lines- seemingly exactly what Cunningham had hoped for- but at the same time wheeled his 50mm antitank guns into position around the British flanks, mostly deployed in hollows.
What followed was a long two day tank battle which to this day is confusing to describe, because most of the participants on both sides weren't exactly sure what was happening. Clouds of dust and black smoke filled the air. Sandstorms and rainstorms were both prevalent. Confusion was the common denominator. Orders, counterorders, battle groups being sent off in the wrong direction. All sides apparently fought with great bravery, even the Italians. Yet when it was over, the antitank guns that Rommel had placed so cleverly ahead of his troops made the difference. The British 8th Army was trouble, and Norrie's armored units were chewed to pieces. As Rommel pointed out after the battle, "What difference does it make if you have two tanks to my one, when you spread them out and let me smash them in detail? You presented me with three brigades in succession."
Cunningham was unnerved at this, though the battle was not yet a loss for the British. If Cunningham had simply committed his reserves at this point, all at once and not piecemeal, his numbers would have overwhelmed Rommel. Yet he was hesitant, and Rommel sensed this. Next, Rommel gave an order that only enhanced his legend as one of the greatest generals who ever lived: he removed his panzers from the battle and thrust them forward at Cunningham's reserves. This was a major gamble designed to completely break Cunningham's will. It almost worked. Cunningham was panicking, and ready to retreat. Had he done so, and had Rommel been able to grab enough fuel, the Afrika Korps might very well have bypassed Tobruk and headed straight for the Suez Canal, and the British position in Egypt would have been destroyed.
But here Auchinleck saved the day. Flying into Cunningham's headquarters, he ordered the shaken General, "You will continue to attack the enemy relentlessly using all your resources even to the last tank." Like Rommel, Auchinleck was also gambling- that at this point Rommel was so low in tanks and fuel that this new assault was all a tremendous bluff. The "Auk" now took personal command. Of Rommel he said, "He is making a desperate effort, but he will not get very far."
timschochet
Footballguy
Operation Crusader Part Three
As usual, Rommel was in the lead command vehicle of his 40 mile column. This was the British Mammoth which he had captured from O'Connor. In the afternoon he visited what he mistakenly believed to be a German field hospital with captured British soldiers. He was surprised to see British officers walking around and as many British wounded as their were German. Then he noticed that all of the doctors spoke English, and not German. At this point one of the doctors introduced himself to Rommel, taking Rommel to be a high level Polish officer. Rommel saluted back British style and then whispered to his adjutant "I think we'd better get the Hell out of here." The doctor proceeded to take Rommel for a tour of the camp, and all the while the German general smiled, nodded, and said nothing. Then he got into his command vehicle and took off.
Rommel returned to his armored column and decided to retreat. He was low on fuel, tanks, and ammunition. Thanks to Auchinleck's orders, Rommel's foray into Egypt had failed to dislodge any British positions. He decided to head back into Libya and bide his time, and gather more strength. Hopefully Berlin would send him more supplies. Auchinleck and Ritchie, his new replacement for Cunningham, chose not to pursue. The Eighth Army had lost too many tanks. Operation Crusader was over, and once again Churchill was profoundly upset- his prey had eluded him.
The British, Italians, and Germans had now fought in North Africa for a year and a half, and the result was at this point a stalemate. Despite great bravery on all sides, neither side had achieved it's objective. But in the long run, the situation would eventually have to favor the Allies- no matter how brilliant Rommel was, he could not keep this up unless he was supplied better. Rommel decided he needed to fly personally to Berlin and urge the Fuhrer for help.
As usual, Rommel was in the lead command vehicle of his 40 mile column. This was the British Mammoth which he had captured from O'Connor. In the afternoon he visited what he mistakenly believed to be a German field hospital with captured British soldiers. He was surprised to see British officers walking around and as many British wounded as their were German. Then he noticed that all of the doctors spoke English, and not German. At this point one of the doctors introduced himself to Rommel, taking Rommel to be a high level Polish officer. Rommel saluted back British style and then whispered to his adjutant "I think we'd better get the Hell out of here." The doctor proceeded to take Rommel for a tour of the camp, and all the while the German general smiled, nodded, and said nothing. Then he got into his command vehicle and took off.
Rommel returned to his armored column and decided to retreat. He was low on fuel, tanks, and ammunition. Thanks to Auchinleck's orders, Rommel's foray into Egypt had failed to dislodge any British positions. He decided to head back into Libya and bide his time, and gather more strength. Hopefully Berlin would send him more supplies. Auchinleck and Ritchie, his new replacement for Cunningham, chose not to pursue. The Eighth Army had lost too many tanks. Operation Crusader was over, and once again Churchill was profoundly upset- his prey had eluded him.
The British, Italians, and Germans had now fought in North Africa for a year and a half, and the result was at this point a stalemate. Despite great bravery on all sides, neither side had achieved it's objective. But in the long run, the situation would eventually have to favor the Allies- no matter how brilliant Rommel was, he could not keep this up unless he was supplied better. Rommel decided he needed to fly personally to Berlin and urge the Fuhrer for help.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
All German officers spoke English, but with a strong German accent, even when speaking amongst themselves. At least, that is what I concluded from seeing movies.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Well sure. We've all seen Hogan's Heroes.
timschochet
Footballguy
I got it out of Delivered From Evil, by Robert Mackie.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm waiting for Redwes to continue here. Should I:
1. Narrate the beginning of the Siege of Leningrad, the battle of Kiev, and the October battles near Moscow, or should I wait for Redwes?
2. Start narrating about Japan and the road to Pearl Harbor?
3. Just wait until Redwes has had a chance to continue?
Let me know what you think.
1. Narrate the beginning of the Siege of Leningrad, the battle of Kiev, and the October battles near Moscow, or should I wait for Redwes?
2. Start narrating about Japan and the road to Pearl Harbor?
3. Just wait until Redwes has had a chance to continue?
Let me know what you think.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Maybe he's a Muslim and takes Friday and Saturday off. Or is it Thursday and Friday?In any case, why don't you start with Japan? The road to Pearl Harbor starts with Admiral Togo.
timschochet
Footballguy
Very well. But I think we need to start even before Togo...
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yeah. Admiral Perry, or even Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga).
timschochet
Footballguy
Modern Japan
After being divided for centuries into separate fiefs by warring daimyos (Lords) Japan was finally unified in 1600 by Shogun Tokugawa Iyeyasu (James Clavell's Shogun is based on this real person- the character of Toranaga). The Tokugawa clan ruled Japan peacefully for the next 250 years, during which time the land was closed off to all outsiders upon pain of death, isolated from the rest of the world. However, even without Commodore Perry, at some point this land would have been forced to seek greater international involvement- it simply does not produce enough foodstuffs to feed it's population (which, incidentally, has always been true of Germany as well.)
In 1853, Commodore Matthew Perry sailed 4 steam powered warships into Tokyo Bay and forced the Japanese to open up trade and ports to the west. This action created a rebellion within Japan itself. The Shogunate was trapped; it was forced to agree against the Emperor's wishes, and the cry went out among common Samurai (knighted soldiers) "Sonno Joi!" Honor the Emperor! Expel the barbarian! After a decade of chaos in which Europeans and Americans who had settled at Yokohama were often assasinated, (with leading members of the Shogunate) the Emperor Meiji's court did assume power, and they dissolved the Samurai class. At this point, despite the fact that the whole country appeared to be anti-Gaijin (foreigner), they promptly attempted to embrace the civilization of the western intruders: adapting western science, industry, political institutions, methods of education, business practices, economics, dress, and even sports. Never before had any great nation so thoroughly and purposefully remade itself into an exact imitation of the society it formerly detested.
Yet the Emperor remained, and this is important, because there was always a misunderstanding about the Emperor's role by the United States, which caused great difficulties both at the beginning and the end of the war. Though most Japanese were Buddhist, they nearly unanimously also believed that their Emperor was divine. The Emperor of Japan can trace his lineage back, supposedly, to the great sun God who created the Earth itself. Such a figure you do not argue with, or try to negotiate with, you simply revere him. However, most Emperors in Japanese history did not play a part in political affairs- supposedly, they were above such things, involved in flower arranging, poetry, and communion with the Gods on behalf of the people. In actually what this meant is that the powerful conselor behind the throne or Shogun had the real power, and the Emperor was merely a puppet- yet a puppet that everyone worshipped.
By the late 1880's, Japan also began to imitate the Great Powers in their imperialism. In 1894, the Japanese were ready to test their new military, with weapons and ships purchased from the British. They easily drove China from Korea, overran southern Manchuria, and forced China to pay them a large indemnity. This action got Russia involved; they helped forge a western coalition to drive the Japanese out of China. Japan retaliated by a suprise attack in 1904 at Port Arthur, crippling Russia's asiatic fleet. Czar Nicholas II then sent a fleet out of the Baltic Sea to punish Japan, and this was destroyed by the Japanese Navy under Admiral Heihachiro Togo. It was the first time non-whites had defeated a western power in modern history, and it sent shock waves through the world. Theodore Roosevelt negotiated to end the war. But Japan had emerged to the world as a great power.
After being divided for centuries into separate fiefs by warring daimyos (Lords) Japan was finally unified in 1600 by Shogun Tokugawa Iyeyasu (James Clavell's Shogun is based on this real person- the character of Toranaga). The Tokugawa clan ruled Japan peacefully for the next 250 years, during which time the land was closed off to all outsiders upon pain of death, isolated from the rest of the world. However, even without Commodore Perry, at some point this land would have been forced to seek greater international involvement- it simply does not produce enough foodstuffs to feed it's population (which, incidentally, has always been true of Germany as well.)
In 1853, Commodore Matthew Perry sailed 4 steam powered warships into Tokyo Bay and forced the Japanese to open up trade and ports to the west. This action created a rebellion within Japan itself. The Shogunate was trapped; it was forced to agree against the Emperor's wishes, and the cry went out among common Samurai (knighted soldiers) "Sonno Joi!" Honor the Emperor! Expel the barbarian! After a decade of chaos in which Europeans and Americans who had settled at Yokohama were often assasinated, (with leading members of the Shogunate) the Emperor Meiji's court did assume power, and they dissolved the Samurai class. At this point, despite the fact that the whole country appeared to be anti-Gaijin (foreigner), they promptly attempted to embrace the civilization of the western intruders: adapting western science, industry, political institutions, methods of education, business practices, economics, dress, and even sports. Never before had any great nation so thoroughly and purposefully remade itself into an exact imitation of the society it formerly detested.
Yet the Emperor remained, and this is important, because there was always a misunderstanding about the Emperor's role by the United States, which caused great difficulties both at the beginning and the end of the war. Though most Japanese were Buddhist, they nearly unanimously also believed that their Emperor was divine. The Emperor of Japan can trace his lineage back, supposedly, to the great sun God who created the Earth itself. Such a figure you do not argue with, or try to negotiate with, you simply revere him. However, most Emperors in Japanese history did not play a part in political affairs- supposedly, they were above such things, involved in flower arranging, poetry, and communion with the Gods on behalf of the people. In actually what this meant is that the powerful conselor behind the throne or Shogun had the real power, and the Emperor was merely a puppet- yet a puppet that everyone worshipped.
By the late 1880's, Japan also began to imitate the Great Powers in their imperialism. In 1894, the Japanese were ready to test their new military, with weapons and ships purchased from the British. They easily drove China from Korea, overran southern Manchuria, and forced China to pay them a large indemnity. This action got Russia involved; they helped forge a western coalition to drive the Japanese out of China. Japan retaliated by a suprise attack in 1904 at Port Arthur, crippling Russia's asiatic fleet. Czar Nicholas II then sent a fleet out of the Baltic Sea to punish Japan, and this was destroyed by the Japanese Navy under Admiral Heihachiro Togo. It was the first time non-whites had defeated a western power in modern history, and it sent shock waves through the world. Theodore Roosevelt negotiated to end the war. But Japan had emerged to the world as a great power.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Before the advent of airpower, and even back in the great days of sailing ships, the dream of every admiral facing an opposing fleet was to "cross the T". Essentially this meant to have the opposing ships coming at you in a perpendicular line, while your ships crossed in front of them, able to bring all their guns to bear, while only the first two or three ships of the enemy were able to fire at you. This is what Togo did to the Russians at the Battle of Tsushima; the Russians lost 4 battleships, several cruisers, to the loss of two or three torpedo boats by the Japanese. It was the first defeat, in modern times, of a European power by an Asiatic one, and it created a great tradition in the Japanese fleet.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Rise of Modern Japan Part Two
So Japan coming into the 20th century was now a rising power, westernized, yet with a ruling class that was descended from Samurai and thus heavily militarized and anti-Democratic, and still worshipping an Emperor believed divine. In World War I, Japan was the ally of England, did very little fighting, but managed to be awarded additional territories in the Versailles Treaty after the war, including several islands which they proceeded to fortify in violation of the League of Nations. (In this action, they were only imitating their ally, Britain.)
During the 1920s, there was a trend towards democracy, as the economy grew through trade, mostly with America. The powerful zaibatsu (corporations) such as Mitsubishi and Mitsui began to dominate political affairs, while the militarists were thrust into the background. But then came the Great Depression and tarrifs. Smoot-Hawley, the American tarrif, killed Japan's trade capacity. Japan's militarists were now in a position to point out that the country had been at the mercy of other nations and their willingness to trade. Without this, in order to have the raw materials it MUST have to survive, Japan must become an agressor nation. Democracy must be out in favor of authoritarianism. In order to ensure this change of national policy, the militarists assassinated several important Democratic figures. The way was clear to build the empire. The first step was to build up the Kwantang Army, already in Manchuria, and an agency unto itself.
On the pretext of a Chinese plot against Japan, and against the express wishes of the Emperor and his counselors, the Kwantang Army in 1931 overran all Manchuria. Early in 1932, Manchuria became the puppet state of Manchuko, and the last emperor of China, Pu Yi, was installed as the puppet leader (the fine film The Last Emperor covers these events in detail.) The League of Nations responded by scolding Japan, who responded by walking out. As the Japanese ambassador explained to a disturbed President Herbert Hoover, "This was an incident and not a war. Incidents are not wars."
However, the Chinese did not sit still for such naked agression, and under Chiang Kai-shek they began fighting back. In this effort he was joined by his old enemy Mao Tse Tung and the Communists. The Japanese retaliated by attacking Nanking, Chiang's main headquarters. Though he managed to flee with his army, Nanking fell in December of 1937. There followed the "Rape of Nanking"; a full month of murder, rape, loot, and mutilation which rivaled the Mongols but has no comparison in modern times. Not even the Nazis invading Russia, or the Russians invading Berlin, as terrible as they were, can compare to the carnage committed by Japanese troops under General Iwane Matsui. Girls as young as 4 or as old as 80 were raped on mulitple occassions. Male Chinese were machined gun en masse, 20,000 in a single day. Others were used for bayonet practice. The surface of the Yangtze river was a human logjam, thick with bobbing and floating corpses. Right around this same time, Japanese bombers deliberately sank the United States ship Panay, in part as a test to see if there would be any reaction. There was none. America protested, and the Japanese apologized for the "accident". America was too isolationist at the time and had no intention of fighting a war with Japan.
Nanking did not finish off Chiang Kai Shek, and the war in China seemed to go on and on, never ending. The Chinese were receiving their supplies from Indochina and Burma. Encouraged by Hitler's victories in the summer of 1940, the Japanese attempted to close the Burma road and planned on the occupation of Indochina. If they succeeded, that would finish Chiang once and for all. In addition, all of the Southeast Asia might fall under Japanese control, which would make it potentially the richest nation on Earth. There were only the Western powers standing in it's way. The Dutch had Asian colonies but were too week to guard them. The British was also beleaguered by their struggles in Europe and North Africa, although they still had a powerful force in Singapore.
That left the United States. America was a threat to Japanese interests in three ways: first, through trade, they basically controlled Japan's oil supply. Second, their military presence in the Phillipines (under control of General MacArthur) was a damper on their interests. Finally, the bulk of the powerful United States Naval Fleet resided at Pearl Harbor, ready to sail in defense, perhaps, of the British if their colonies were attacked.
But Japan did not want a war with America- their leaders for the most part recognized what a powerful nation the USA was. They would attempt to first achieve their aims through peaceful means, and see if that worked.
So Japan coming into the 20th century was now a rising power, westernized, yet with a ruling class that was descended from Samurai and thus heavily militarized and anti-Democratic, and still worshipping an Emperor believed divine. In World War I, Japan was the ally of England, did very little fighting, but managed to be awarded additional territories in the Versailles Treaty after the war, including several islands which they proceeded to fortify in violation of the League of Nations. (In this action, they were only imitating their ally, Britain.)
During the 1920s, there was a trend towards democracy, as the economy grew through trade, mostly with America. The powerful zaibatsu (corporations) such as Mitsubishi and Mitsui began to dominate political affairs, while the militarists were thrust into the background. But then came the Great Depression and tarrifs. Smoot-Hawley, the American tarrif, killed Japan's trade capacity. Japan's militarists were now in a position to point out that the country had been at the mercy of other nations and their willingness to trade. Without this, in order to have the raw materials it MUST have to survive, Japan must become an agressor nation. Democracy must be out in favor of authoritarianism. In order to ensure this change of national policy, the militarists assassinated several important Democratic figures. The way was clear to build the empire. The first step was to build up the Kwantang Army, already in Manchuria, and an agency unto itself.
On the pretext of a Chinese plot against Japan, and against the express wishes of the Emperor and his counselors, the Kwantang Army in 1931 overran all Manchuria. Early in 1932, Manchuria became the puppet state of Manchuko, and the last emperor of China, Pu Yi, was installed as the puppet leader (the fine film The Last Emperor covers these events in detail.) The League of Nations responded by scolding Japan, who responded by walking out. As the Japanese ambassador explained to a disturbed President Herbert Hoover, "This was an incident and not a war. Incidents are not wars."
However, the Chinese did not sit still for such naked agression, and under Chiang Kai-shek they began fighting back. In this effort he was joined by his old enemy Mao Tse Tung and the Communists. The Japanese retaliated by attacking Nanking, Chiang's main headquarters. Though he managed to flee with his army, Nanking fell in December of 1937. There followed the "Rape of Nanking"; a full month of murder, rape, loot, and mutilation which rivaled the Mongols but has no comparison in modern times. Not even the Nazis invading Russia, or the Russians invading Berlin, as terrible as they were, can compare to the carnage committed by Japanese troops under General Iwane Matsui. Girls as young as 4 or as old as 80 were raped on mulitple occassions. Male Chinese were machined gun en masse, 20,000 in a single day. Others were used for bayonet practice. The surface of the Yangtze river was a human logjam, thick with bobbing and floating corpses. Right around this same time, Japanese bombers deliberately sank the United States ship Panay, in part as a test to see if there would be any reaction. There was none. America protested, and the Japanese apologized for the "accident". America was too isolationist at the time and had no intention of fighting a war with Japan.
Nanking did not finish off Chiang Kai Shek, and the war in China seemed to go on and on, never ending. The Chinese were receiving their supplies from Indochina and Burma. Encouraged by Hitler's victories in the summer of 1940, the Japanese attempted to close the Burma road and planned on the occupation of Indochina. If they succeeded, that would finish Chiang once and for all. In addition, all of the Southeast Asia might fall under Japanese control, which would make it potentially the richest nation on Earth. There were only the Western powers standing in it's way. The Dutch had Asian colonies but were too week to guard them. The British was also beleaguered by their struggles in Europe and North Africa, although they still had a powerful force in Singapore.
That left the United States. America was a threat to Japanese interests in three ways: first, through trade, they basically controlled Japan's oil supply. Second, their military presence in the Phillipines (under control of General MacArthur) was a damper on their interests. Finally, the bulk of the powerful United States Naval Fleet resided at Pearl Harbor, ready to sail in defense, perhaps, of the British if their colonies were attacked.
But Japan did not want a war with America- their leaders for the most part recognized what a powerful nation the USA was. They would attempt to first achieve their aims through peaceful means, and see if that worked.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
The world in the 1920's and 1930 looked very different to the leaders then, than the world we have now. In those days, mercantilism was the way that most nations organized their economies, so the object was to produce as much as possible, export as much as possible, and import as little as possible, so as to have a favorable balance of trade (you could then accumulate precious metals, which were wealth).
Therefore, major players needed markets (which they could obtain through colonialism), and which they could then protect from competition by high tariffs and import restrictions. Late players to the colonial game, such as Germany and Japan, found that the world had been carved up by the British and the French, and to a lesser extent, by the Americans. They also needed to assure themselves of raw materials, to feed their industries--and of course, oil was one of the most precious commodities.
So looked at from that perspective, however flawed, Germany and Japan felt they needed to conquer other countries to expand their market and assure themselves of raw materials. This underlies much of what they did, and gave impetus to the natural militaristic tendencies in both countries.
Therefore, major players needed markets (which they could obtain through colonialism), and which they could then protect from competition by high tariffs and import restrictions. Late players to the colonial game, such as Germany and Japan, found that the world had been carved up by the British and the French, and to a lesser extent, by the Americans. They also needed to assure themselves of raw materials, to feed their industries--and of course, oil was one of the most precious commodities.
So looked at from that perspective, however flawed, Germany and Japan felt they needed to conquer other countries to expand their market and assure themselves of raw materials. This underlies much of what they did, and gave impetus to the natural militaristic tendencies in both countries.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Tripartite Pact
At the beginning of 1941, the foreign minister of Japan was named Matsuoka, who, in one of the great ironies of history, had achieved his education at the University of Oregon, one of the only American colleges willing to accept Japanese transfer students prior to World War I. He was an odd sort who laughed in the middle of serious discussions and often wept. Westerners considered him insane, and wondered if all Japanese were so odd. What they did not know was that many Japanese considered Matsuoka insane as well, with the exception of one high level counselor, who famously said, "In Matsuoka, insanity would be an improvement."
Matsuoka believed he could force the United States into letting Japan have it's way through diplomacy. FDR had restricted some scrap iron to Japan as a warning to stay away from Indochina. Matsuoka's response to this was to sign the Tripartite Pact.
It should be pointed out here that neither nation really treated the other with any level of understanding. The Japanese regarded America as weak and unwilling to use force to settle it's affairs- it's leaders, including the crazed Matsuoka, had long ago decided that the United States could be treated in the same way Hitler had treated France and England- negotiate and keep negotiating, and take what you want, because no matter what they say, they're only bluffing. America and FDR treated Japan like it would a third world country- to be ordered around, of little consequence. (Earlier, I had referred to the American and British planning in early 1941 which called for "Germany First"- this was in part a reflection of the supreme confidence of the Americans that their fleet could handle any little problems the Japanese might give them- the British were not so sure.)
The Tripartite Pact between Germany, Italy, and Japan carved up the world into spheres of influence, recognizing Japan's supremacy in East Asia. Like nearly everything that Japan did in foreign relations between 1900 and 1941, it was a copy of what the British had done- in 1917, the British and French had signed a similar agreement, the Sykes/Picot, which carved the Middle East up between them. The Japanese could never fathom why they were always being castigated by the Western press for taking actions that imitated the west. Even the Rape of Nanking, they pointed out, was no different than the way the British handled the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. They decided the western powers pretense at morality was just that, and they simply did not want a non white power to share in the world's spoils. To some extent, the Japanese probably had a darn good argument here.
As a direct challenge to the United States, the Pact also declared that each ally would help the other "if attacked by a a power at present not involved in the European War or the Sino-Japanese conflict." At this point Von Weisacker, the German undersecretary of affairs, shrewdly asked if this would include Russia. (This was in March of 1941.) Matsuoka replied that Russia must be excluded, as Japan had signed a neutrality pact with Russia (see Redwes' earlier entry.) This was of course, wise of Matsuoka- if you can call any of this negotiation wise- the Kwangtung Army had enough on its hands with China to think about attacking Russia.
Von Weisacker, however, urged his boss Ribbentrop not to sign the agreement unless the Japanese committed to joining in the upcoming fight against Russia. Ribbentrop asked Hitler, and Hitler responded that this was not necessary. He wanted the Tripartate Pact signed as a warning to the United States as well; perhaps it would distract them away from the Atlantic.
Matsuoka's hope was that it would distract the Americans away from the Pacific. But as it turned out, neither was the case. FDR only increased his involvement with the Atlantic, and in retaliation to Japan he froze all Japanese assets in the United States, halted all exports of finished steel and completed the scrap metal embargo in full. This was nothing less than an economic blocade. Without oil and iron, Japan could not long survive, and it would have to surrender China.
The first result of FDR's action was that Matsuoka was blamed by the military in charge; they tossed him out of office. Diplomacy was a failure, they decided- stronger action was needed.
At the beginning of 1941, the foreign minister of Japan was named Matsuoka, who, in one of the great ironies of history, had achieved his education at the University of Oregon, one of the only American colleges willing to accept Japanese transfer students prior to World War I. He was an odd sort who laughed in the middle of serious discussions and often wept. Westerners considered him insane, and wondered if all Japanese were so odd. What they did not know was that many Japanese considered Matsuoka insane as well, with the exception of one high level counselor, who famously said, "In Matsuoka, insanity would be an improvement."
Matsuoka believed he could force the United States into letting Japan have it's way through diplomacy. FDR had restricted some scrap iron to Japan as a warning to stay away from Indochina. Matsuoka's response to this was to sign the Tripartite Pact.
It should be pointed out here that neither nation really treated the other with any level of understanding. The Japanese regarded America as weak and unwilling to use force to settle it's affairs- it's leaders, including the crazed Matsuoka, had long ago decided that the United States could be treated in the same way Hitler had treated France and England- negotiate and keep negotiating, and take what you want, because no matter what they say, they're only bluffing. America and FDR treated Japan like it would a third world country- to be ordered around, of little consequence. (Earlier, I had referred to the American and British planning in early 1941 which called for "Germany First"- this was in part a reflection of the supreme confidence of the Americans that their fleet could handle any little problems the Japanese might give them- the British were not so sure.)
The Tripartite Pact between Germany, Italy, and Japan carved up the world into spheres of influence, recognizing Japan's supremacy in East Asia. Like nearly everything that Japan did in foreign relations between 1900 and 1941, it was a copy of what the British had done- in 1917, the British and French had signed a similar agreement, the Sykes/Picot, which carved the Middle East up between them. The Japanese could never fathom why they were always being castigated by the Western press for taking actions that imitated the west. Even the Rape of Nanking, they pointed out, was no different than the way the British handled the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. They decided the western powers pretense at morality was just that, and they simply did not want a non white power to share in the world's spoils. To some extent, the Japanese probably had a darn good argument here.
As a direct challenge to the United States, the Pact also declared that each ally would help the other "if attacked by a a power at present not involved in the European War or the Sino-Japanese conflict." At this point Von Weisacker, the German undersecretary of affairs, shrewdly asked if this would include Russia. (This was in March of 1941.) Matsuoka replied that Russia must be excluded, as Japan had signed a neutrality pact with Russia (see Redwes' earlier entry.) This was of course, wise of Matsuoka- if you can call any of this negotiation wise- the Kwangtung Army had enough on its hands with China to think about attacking Russia.
Von Weisacker, however, urged his boss Ribbentrop not to sign the agreement unless the Japanese committed to joining in the upcoming fight against Russia. Ribbentrop asked Hitler, and Hitler responded that this was not necessary. He wanted the Tripartate Pact signed as a warning to the United States as well; perhaps it would distract them away from the Atlantic.
Matsuoka's hope was that it would distract the Americans away from the Pacific. But as it turned out, neither was the case. FDR only increased his involvement with the Atlantic, and in retaliation to Japan he froze all Japanese assets in the United States, halted all exports of finished steel and completed the scrap metal embargo in full. This was nothing less than an economic blocade. Without oil and iron, Japan could not long survive, and it would have to surrender China.
The first result of FDR's action was that Matsuoka was blamed by the military in charge; they tossed him out of office. Diplomacy was a failure, they decided- stronger action was needed.
timschochet
Footballguy
Most of what I'm relating is from Robert Mackie's Delivered From Evil. Some of the details (like Matsuoka's Oregon education) comes from The Rising Sun by John Toland.
bentley
Footballguy
Thanks. I had grandfathers serving in both theaters, but I've pretty much only read about stuff in Europe (other than some books about individual battles). Been meaning to pick up a survey of the Pacific War.
timschochet
Footballguy
I would try the Toland- it's terrific, from the Japanese point of view. Sort of a Japanese version of Shirer. But it might be out of print at this point. I have a really old paperback copy I got at a used book store. You might have to look at the library or Amazon.
timschochet
Footballguy
Tojo's fateful decision
The actions by Roosevelt angered the Japanese public like never before. This was exploited by the military government, which encouraged the people to hate America and England as white hypocrites trying to enslave people of Asian descent. (There was no mention of the fact that, under the Japanese "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", the subject Asians of non-Japanese descent would have no greater rights under this "liberation". In fact, their status would be equal to how Germany treated Russians and Poles.
Nonetheless, the Japanese government which had in the past become so Westernized now attempted to discourage all Western influences. Ballroom dancing, golf, Western movies and Jazz music all became illegal. The Kampetai, military secret police, arrested anyone accused of "pro-Western" thoughts. And while all of this was going on, the government tried to decide which course to take.
There were essentially two options: one was to withdraw the troops from China, and settle back to take an eventual economic profit from the European conflict as in WWI. The second choice was to continue the war in China, thus risking hostilities with America and probably Britain and the Netherlands. The first choice was more sensible, and yet it was also unthinkable. To leave China now meant Japan would "lose face", which could not be allowed. The moderate premier Prince Konoye, who had promoted Matsuoka, was forced to resign, and he was replaced by General Hideji Tojo.
Tojo was a small man (5'2", 115 pounds) but considered a man of iron, a former commander of the Kwantung Army and the secret police. A contemporary analogy would be to Vladimir Putin: like Putin, Tojo was cold, calculating, ruthless (though no mass murderer like Hitler or Stalin.) Also like Putin, he had been unknown to the public before rising to his current role as premier through military means. Tojo despised the West, despised America, and was determined to make Japan master of a great empire. He decided that America could not be brought to heel through diplomatic means and that war was the only option.
In retrospect, and perhaps even then, it seems like sheer madness for anyone to consider declaring war on the United States, especially a small country like Japan. But Tojo had reasoned it out. Here are his arguments in a nutshell:
1. The Japanese would be operating on interior lines, and would be much closer to the target areas.
2. The enemy garrisons were at the moment very weak and could be easily taken. This was a temporary situation, however: Singapore and Manila were busily improving their defenses. Japan had to strike now before this advantage was lost.
3. The oil and raw materials seized instantly would make Japan much stronger.
4. Finally, Gemany was winning everywhere and now in the process of taking out Russia. America could never concentrate on defeating Japan while Germany was winning so many battles. America would be eager to accept a negotiated peace given Japan what she wanted.
These arguments seemed to make sense to the majority of the Japanese government, although Emperor Hirohito remained cautious. But of course they were badly flawed. First, it completely underestimated the incredible industrial might of the United States. No matter how many temporary victories won by Japan, it was a poor nation; it simply could not compete against the awesome power of America, as we shall see. Second, Germany was also a poor nation, and facing an eventual two front war, with endless Russia and America against her. The Nazis would eventually be crushed by sheer numbers.
Most importantly, the belief that the United States would accept a negotiated peace constituted a huge misunderstanding of Americans. Both the Germans and Japanese looked contemptuously upon American lifestyles which seemed extravagant to them even during the Depression, and considered the entire country effete and weak. But American soldiers had proven time and again that they were among the bravest on Earth. And they would never consider such a surrender to Japan.
But the decision was made. Tojo and the other Generals now turned to their navy and asked for a plan that might secure quick victory. For this, the main strategist of the Naval forces, a military genius named Isoroku Yamamoto was summoned. Yamamoto was EXTREMELY opposed to war with America. He was an admirer of the United States and hated the whole idea. In a brilliant paper, he stated his reasoning, predicting exactly how the war would be fought: first there would be great victories for Japan, but eventually the industrial strength of United States would crush them like a hammer.
In response, Tojo snapped, don't give us political advice, that's our job. Just come up with a plan. Yamamoto, a patriot, reluctantly did exactly that.
The actions by Roosevelt angered the Japanese public like never before. This was exploited by the military government, which encouraged the people to hate America and England as white hypocrites trying to enslave people of Asian descent. (There was no mention of the fact that, under the Japanese "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", the subject Asians of non-Japanese descent would have no greater rights under this "liberation". In fact, their status would be equal to how Germany treated Russians and Poles.
Nonetheless, the Japanese government which had in the past become so Westernized now attempted to discourage all Western influences. Ballroom dancing, golf, Western movies and Jazz music all became illegal. The Kampetai, military secret police, arrested anyone accused of "pro-Western" thoughts. And while all of this was going on, the government tried to decide which course to take.
There were essentially two options: one was to withdraw the troops from China, and settle back to take an eventual economic profit from the European conflict as in WWI. The second choice was to continue the war in China, thus risking hostilities with America and probably Britain and the Netherlands. The first choice was more sensible, and yet it was also unthinkable. To leave China now meant Japan would "lose face", which could not be allowed. The moderate premier Prince Konoye, who had promoted Matsuoka, was forced to resign, and he was replaced by General Hideji Tojo.
Tojo was a small man (5'2", 115 pounds) but considered a man of iron, a former commander of the Kwantung Army and the secret police. A contemporary analogy would be to Vladimir Putin: like Putin, Tojo was cold, calculating, ruthless (though no mass murderer like Hitler or Stalin.) Also like Putin, he had been unknown to the public before rising to his current role as premier through military means. Tojo despised the West, despised America, and was determined to make Japan master of a great empire. He decided that America could not be brought to heel through diplomatic means and that war was the only option.
In retrospect, and perhaps even then, it seems like sheer madness for anyone to consider declaring war on the United States, especially a small country like Japan. But Tojo had reasoned it out. Here are his arguments in a nutshell:
1. The Japanese would be operating on interior lines, and would be much closer to the target areas.
2. The enemy garrisons were at the moment very weak and could be easily taken. This was a temporary situation, however: Singapore and Manila were busily improving their defenses. Japan had to strike now before this advantage was lost.
3. The oil and raw materials seized instantly would make Japan much stronger.
4. Finally, Gemany was winning everywhere and now in the process of taking out Russia. America could never concentrate on defeating Japan while Germany was winning so many battles. America would be eager to accept a negotiated peace given Japan what she wanted.
These arguments seemed to make sense to the majority of the Japanese government, although Emperor Hirohito remained cautious. But of course they were badly flawed. First, it completely underestimated the incredible industrial might of the United States. No matter how many temporary victories won by Japan, it was a poor nation; it simply could not compete against the awesome power of America, as we shall see. Second, Germany was also a poor nation, and facing an eventual two front war, with endless Russia and America against her. The Nazis would eventually be crushed by sheer numbers.
Most importantly, the belief that the United States would accept a negotiated peace constituted a huge misunderstanding of Americans. Both the Germans and Japanese looked contemptuously upon American lifestyles which seemed extravagant to them even during the Depression, and considered the entire country effete and weak. But American soldiers had proven time and again that they were among the bravest on Earth. And they would never consider such a surrender to Japan.
But the decision was made. Tojo and the other Generals now turned to their navy and asked for a plan that might secure quick victory. For this, the main strategist of the Naval forces, a military genius named Isoroku Yamamoto was summoned. Yamamoto was EXTREMELY opposed to war with America. He was an admirer of the United States and hated the whole idea. In a brilliant paper, he stated his reasoning, predicting exactly how the war would be fought: first there would be great victories for Japan, but eventually the industrial strength of United States would crush them like a hammer.
In response, Tojo snapped, don't give us political advice, that's our job. Just come up with a plan. Yamamoto, a patriot, reluctantly did exactly that.
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Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yamamoto had spent 2 years at Harvard and had been the Naval Attache in Washington. He had toured the United States and was aware of the industrial might of America.
He said: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
He called it right. It was exactly 6 months from Pear Harbor to the end of the Battle of Midway.
He said: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
He called it right. It was exactly 6 months from Pear Harbor to the end of the Battle of Midway.
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