Start Your Real NFL Today - Choice between Cam Newton or Andrew Luck (2 Viewers)

[BaBastage]

By your logic, Alex Smith is a better QB than Drew Brees because his team has more wins.

Well said...

 

[Concept Coop]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Moon averaged about 8 yards rushing per game.

He is very clearly a rushing QB, just as Steve Young is not. Don't ask questions.

 

[habsfan]

Giving Mike and Mike credit for thinking this debate up is equivalent to heaping praise on Charlie Sheen for discovering cocaine.

That's where I heard it this morning. I thought it was an interesting question. What was really interesting though is that Greenberg was adamant (and Golic didn't seem to disagree) that the vast majority of people would still take Luck as an answer to the question.So I wanted to ask you guys.J

So is this just an inherent distrust of the "athletic QB" versus the swivelling "pocket passer"?

 

[solorca]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Moon averaged about 8 yards rushing per game.

But he was black. He was automatically a running qb. This reminds me of all the Jamarcus Russell comparrisons that Cam received before the draft....even though their games couldn't have been more different.

 

[Concept Coop]

Let's not forget that Cam was a better college player too.

Just comparing last year (2010 was the only year Newton started Div I football) I really don't think that the stats agree with that statement...2010 PA PC Comp % PYds PTDs INT RA RYds RAvg RTDsNewton 280 185 66.10% 2,854 30 7 264 1,473 5.6 20Luck 372 263 70.70% 3,338 32 8 55 453 8.2 3

Newton had one of the best college seasons ever and was on pace to go down as the best ever, should he the time to do it. Newton accounted for 50 TDs, compared to 35 for Luck; 4,300 yards, compared to 3,790. Not to mention the Heisman and national championship.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Did you really mean to put Warren Moon in that list?

I think he meant something different when he said "dual threat" QBs.

The "dual" is African and American.

 

[Gawain]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Did you really mean to put Warren Moon in that list?

I think he meant something different when he said "dual threat" QBs.

Let's throw Josh Freeman and Doug Williams on that list too. But, Williams actually won a Super Bowl.

 

[Concept Coop]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Did you really mean to put Warren Moon in that list?

I think he meant something different when he said "dual threat" QBs.

The "dual" is African and American.

 

[Englishteacher]

A bird in the hand...

 

[unckeyherb]

this turned into a pretty funny read.

ETA: Cam Newton.

 

[CalBear]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Uh, there are a lot of QBs in Canton who were not "traditional pocket passers with rocket arms". And frankly, Luck isn't exactly a traditional pocket passer either; he's going to leave college with over 150 rushing attempts.Edit to add: For that matter, Warren Moon wasn't a running QB. He averaged almost exactly as many running attempts per year as Joe Montana.Now, what do Joe Montana, Steve Young, and Andrew Luck have in common, and what do McNabb, Cunningham, Moon, and Newton have in common? I can't imagine what that might be...

 

[BassNBrew]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Uh, there are a lot of QBs in Canton who were not "traditional pocket passers with rocket arms". And frankly, Luck isn't exactly a traditional pocket passer either; he's going to leave college with over 150 rushing attempts.Edit to add: For that matter, Warren Moon wasn't a running QB. He averaged almost exactly as many running attempts per year as Joe Montana.Now, what do Joe Montana, Steve Young, and Andrew Luck have in common, and what do McNabb, Cunningham, Moon, and Newton have in common? I can't imagine what that might be...

Montana/Young/Luck performed best west of the Rockies???

 

[DoubleG]

There seems to be a descrepancy between votes and posts. The vote is basically a 60/40 split in favor of Cam, but only 2 people have voiced an opinion in favor of Luck (and only 1 that had any attempt at making it not racially based.)

I don't even understand how this is truly debatable. That would have been like saying "Would you rather have ADP or Mark Ingrim?" prior to this season - sometimes good - even great college talent does not automatically transfer to the NFL - especially at Quarterback. In fact, many scouts have suggested that QB is the toughest position to translate from college success to the NFL. Tebow was a Heisman trophy winner too - as were many other QBs who did squat in the NFL.

Cam Newton is a very good to excellent NFL QB already...who can run when he needs to. He's NOT Tim Tebow (or Vince Young, or even Michael Vick). The comparisons to Steve Young are probably the closest, but I think Cam actually has a better arm than Young did. In the Bears game, I saw Cam make some throws on the run that were extremely impressive. I also he think a comparison to Big Ben - hard to bring down, moves in the pocket - would be fair - but Newton is faster than Ben and again, seems to have a better arm.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Did you really mean to put Warren Moon in that list?

I think he meant something different when he said "dual threat" QBs.

The "dual" is African and American.

When did I ever mention African or American? Black or white? You implied it, replied to it, and whalah! There you go! I'm racist!That's funny seing that I myself am a minority. I have nothing but respect for Black QB's and there have been some great ones. This isn't what this discussion is about though. It's about Luck vs Cam. I feel that Luck will prove to have the better overall career. The rest of the replies are hijacked silliness.

 

[BigTex]

The big question to me about Newton is how much will he continue to develop beyond his first year? Having a great rookie year is very nice but what I've seen from a lot of the dual threat QB's that have success right away is they get coached to try and become more of a traditional pocket QB and a lot of times taking away their natural instincts about when to take off and when to stay put. A lot of times when you remove those instincts, the dual threat QB starts getting more confused and instead of playing loose begins to overthink his decisions and gradually loses his confidence.

You make some interesting points. IMHO, when the NFL get enough film to start scheming against Cam then we'll know for sure. Next year and beyond will tell the true story, just don't think they had enough time to see what Cam game and tendencies are. He SURPRISED EVERYONE so far with his game play this year but teams are starting to take him a little more seriously.Tex

 

[solorca]

The big question to me about Newton is how much will he continue to develop beyond his first year? Having a great rookie year is very nice but what I've seen from a lot of the dual threat QB's that have success right away is they get coached to try and become more of a traditional pocket QB and a lot of times taking away their natural instincts about when to take off and when to stay put. A lot of times when you remove those instincts, the dual threat QB starts getting more confused and instead of playing loose begins to overthink his decisions and gradually loses his confidence.

You make some interesting points. IMHO, when the NFL get enough film to start scheming against Cam then we'll know for sure. Next year and beyond will tell the true story, just don't think they had enough time to see what Cam game and tendencies are. He SURPRISED EVERYONE so far with his game play this year but teams are starting to take him a little more seriously.Tex

I agree with you about that. Newton will need to continue to prove that he can play when teams start to gameplan against him week in and week out. With that said, I think that there is enough tape on him now to allow teams to come up with good plans to try to stop him, and it hasn't been working that well so far.Where Newton has an advantage over other duel threat QB's is that you cannot gameplan to force him to stay in the pocket, because he is proving to be a very good pocket passer.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

The big question to me about Newton is how much will he continue to develop beyond his first year? Having a great rookie year is very nice but what I've seen from a lot of the dual threat QB's that have success right away is they get coached to try and become more of a traditional pocket QB and a lot of times taking away their natural instincts about when to take off and when to stay put. A lot of times when you remove those instincts, the dual threat QB starts getting more confused and instead of playing loose begins to overthink his decisions and gradually loses his confidence.

You make some interesting points. IMHO, when the NFL get enough film to start scheming against Cam then we'll know for sure. Next year and beyond will tell the true story, just don't think they had enough time to see what Cam game and tendencies are. He SURPRISED EVERYONE so far with his game play this year but teams are starting to take him a little more seriously.Tex

Both of the above posts are good comments. I think it's fair to question Cam's long term outlook. Plenty of bright rookie QB's have struggled and there are also HOF QB's that started slow. I hope Cam Newton has a HOF career. I have nothing against him. Good for him that he's doing well. He's certainly very talented. Let's see how this plays out.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Did you really mean to put Warren Moon in that list?

I think he meant something different when he said "dual threat" QBs.

The "dual" is African and American.

When did I ever mention African or American? Black or white? You implied it, replied to it, and whalah! There you go! I'm racist!That's funny seing that I myself am a minority. I have nothing but respect for Black QB's and there have been some great ones. This isn't what this discussion is about though. It's about Luck vs Cam. I feel that Luck will prove to have the better overall career. The rest of the replies are hijacked silliness.

In their defense, the hijacked silliness is nothing more than a reply the hijacked silliness of your "rule" that is not a rule at all. So, pretty reasonable. Also, funny.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The big question to me about Newton is how much will he continue to develop beyond his first year? Having a great rookie year is very nice but what I've seen from a lot of the dual threat QB's that have success right away is they get coached to try and become more of a traditional pocket QB and a lot of times taking away their natural instincts about when to take off and when to stay put. A lot of times when you remove those instincts, the dual threat QB starts getting more confused and instead of playing loose begins to overthink his decisions and gradually loses his confidence.

The Vince Young thing is valid in that Rookie of the Year doesn't mean a long term great player. But Newton seems to have it together more than Young did. On the pocket QB point, I think one of the most positive things Newton has shown is that he doesn't just take off and run whenever he's pressured. He goes through his progressions and then at the last resort will run. I think he's handled that aspect beautifully. And the most encouraging thing is that he's done all this with the screwed up offseason. He should have had tons more work in this offense than he had. But he's looked like a veteran.J

 

[GDogg]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

 

[CalBear]

When did I ever mention African or American? Black or white? You implied it, replied to it, and whalah! There you go! I'm racist!That's funny seing that I myself am a minority. I have nothing but respect for Black QB's and there have been some great ones. This isn't what this discussion is about though. It's about Luck vs Cam. I feel that Luck will prove to have the better overall career. The rest of the replies are hijacked silliness.

Feeling that Luck will have a better career than Newton is fine; there are reasonable people who believe that. Feeling that Luck will have a better career than Newton because Warren Moon never won a Super Bowl is, at best, insane.

 

[Reepicheep]

When did I ever mention African or American? Black or white? You implied it, replied to it, and whalah! There you go! I'm racist!That's funny seing that I myself am a minority. I have nothing but respect for Black QB's and there have been some great ones. This isn't what this discussion is about though. It's about Luck vs Cam. I feel that Luck will prove to have the better overall career. The rest of the replies are hijacked silliness.

Feeling that Luck will have a better career than Newton is fine; there are reasonable people who believe that. Feeling that Luck will have a better career than Newton because Warren Moon never won a Super Bowl is, at best, insane.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Uh, there are a lot of QBs in Canton who were not "traditional pocket passers with rocket arms". And frankly, Luck isn't exactly a traditional pocket passer either; he's going to leave college with over 150 rushing attempts.Edit to add: For that matter, Warren Moon wasn't a running QB. He averaged almost exactly as many running attempts per year as Joe Montana.Now, what do Joe Montana, Steve Young, and Andrew Luck have in common, and what do McNabb, Cunningham, Moon, and Newton have in common? I can't imagine what that might be...

Montana, Young and Luck played in or near the city of SFMcNabb, Cunningham and Moon all played for the Vikings late in their careersHTH

 

[Smack Tripper]

Newton has already proven himself against real NFL teams.No matter how much potential everyone thinks Luck has, it is still unproven at the NFL level.

Count me in for this line of thinking. I also seriously underestimated Newton, but the pendeliumm may have swung too far the other way now. There are flaws in his game to be exploited, and the next chapter of Newton joining the elite will be whether or not he can adjust and keep adjusting and adapting. I guess part of the halo of success is, I feel like he WILL make that adjustment. Luck, he should be good, but I'm not sure about his arm.

Just curious as to what those flaws are?The only thing I've seen is some poor decision making at the end of games. The way Cam was throwing the ball last week, you'd be hard pressed to find another NFL QB that could make the same throws. If the Panthers can find one WR2 that is as talented as the first guy off the bench on most other NFL teams Cam will take the next step forward.

I haven't seen every snap of panther football so I'll be upfront with that. But the potential weaknesses will be the more exotic packages he'll face, even this season, as it becomes clear that you don't want to let him beat you. I think it was articulated far better up the thread about the tendency to respect and work from the pocket vs the instinct to use what god gave you and improvise outside of the pocket. It's a great ability to have but if you get flushed out and bite too frequently, I think you're more apt to turn the ball over one way or the other, as well as put yourself out for bigger and harder hits. I also think its much different playing soft coverage when you're trailing versus staying competitive for 60'minutes. I think the turnovers are correctable and also a byproduct of winging it because you're trailing and being young, but they are a red flag at the moment. There are many who lived on talent and didn't absorb the game within the game within the game. Not saying cam cant or won't, he's fun to watch, I hope he does and based on his own evidenced will to win, I think be will, but until you do, it's speculation.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

What do people feel the ceiling and floor for these guys is?

Is Newton's floor Duante Culpepper? is his ceiling Elway, or higher?

Is Luck's ceiling Peyton?

 

[joffer]

i sure am glad so many have pointed out that Luck hasn't played in the NFL yet, cause i wasn't aware of that before reading this thread.

I chose Newton just barely. I think Luck is going to be a tremendous NFL QB.

 

[Smack Tripper]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too. Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

 

[solorca]

Newton has already proven himself against real NFL teams.

No matter how much potential everyone thinks Luck has, it is still unproven at the NFL level.

Count me in for this line of thinking. I also seriously underestimated Newton, but the pendeliumm may have swung too far the other way now. There are flaws in his game to be exploited, and the next chapter of Newton joining the elite will be whether or not he can adjust and keep adjusting and adapting. I guess part of the halo of success is, I feel like he WILL make that adjustment.

Luck, he should be good, but I'm not sure about his arm.

Just curious as to what those flaws are?The only thing I've seen is some poor decision making at the end of games. The way Cam was throwing the ball last week, you'd be hard pressed to find another NFL QB that could make the same throws. If the Panthers can find one WR2 that is as talented as the first guy off the bench on most other NFL teams Cam will take the next step forward.

I haven't seen every snap of panther football so I'll be upfront with that. But the potential weaknesses will be the more exotic packages he'll face, even this season, as it becomes clear that you don't want to let him beat you. I think it was articulated far better up the thread about the tendency to respect and work from the pocket vs the instinct to use what god gave you and improvise outside of the pocket. It's a great ability to have but if you get flushed out and bite too frequently, I think you're more apt to turn the ball over one way or the other, as well as put yourself out for bigger and harder hits. I also think its much different playing soft coverage when you're trailing versus staying competitive for 60'minutes. I think the turnovers are correctable and also a byproduct of winging it because you're trailing and being young, but they are a red flag at the moment. There are many who lived on talent and didn't absorb the game within the game within the game. Not saying cam cant or won't, he's fun to watch, I hope he does and based on his own evidenced will to win, I think be will, but until you do, it's speculation.

Sorry, but I think both points are invalid. Newton doesn't rely on his talents too quickly, in fact, he typically doesn't look to run until after the third read is made and nothing is available...or he is flushed out of the pocket. If he has receivers and there is protection, he rarely ever runs. In fact, here is a recent quote from Greg Cosell based on his observation of Newton..

Greg Cosell on Cam Newton: Have to drag him out of pocket w/ a ball & chain. Intuitively understands game played at highest level in pocket.

The second point isn't valid at all, because Carolina hasn't been down in games this season. The only game that they lost by more than one score was against Atlanta, where they actually led late in the game.

Newton certainly has to show that he can sustain what he has shown so far, but a lot of the negatives that are brought up about him are a case of people who haven't really watched him play this season. The one major thing that Newton will need to learn how to do going into the second half of the season and next year is closing out games. He has had three separate games this season where he had a chance to win from inside the redzone in the last two minutes of the game. One time, he completed a pass on fourth down that ended up a yard short, another time he rushed and ended up about two yards short. The last time was this past weekend, when he actually did produce a first a goal situation that was called back by penalty, eventually leading to a field goal attempt to take the game to overtime. Olindo Mare missed a 31 yard field goal though.

While he probably couldn't have done much differently last week, the other two games are situations where he will need to show that he can win in as the team moves forward. This team could easily have a winning record right now with just a few things breaking differently, and his success in the future will be based on how he continues to handle those moments.

It's actually a very similar situation to Manning's rookie season. He put up great numbers and put his team in a position to win almost every game, but they just kept ending up a little bit short. The next season, they went 13-3 and the rest is history. We'll see if Cam can follow in his footsteps.

 

[BigTex]

I think Joe got exactly what he wanted out of this thread.

 

[GDogg]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too.

Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

If "HE" is Steve Young, then HE won three rings, not one.

 

[Reepicheep]

Sorry, but I think both points are invalid.

Newton doesn't rely on his talents too quickly, in fact, he typically doesn't look to run until after the third read is made and nothing is available...or he is flushed out of the pocket. If he has receivers and there is protection, he rarely ever runs. In fact, here is a recent quote from Greg Cosell based on his observation of Newton..

Greg Cosell on Cam Newton: Have to drag him out of pocket w/ a ball & chain. Intuitively understands game played at highest level in pocket.

The second point isn't valid at all, because Carolina hasn't been down in games this season. The only game that they lost by more than one score was against Atlanta, where they actually led late in the game.

Newton certainly has to show that he can sustain what he has shown so far, but a lot of the negatives that are brought up about him are a case of people who haven't really watched him play this season.

Agree, I think the confusion comes in when people who haven't seen a lot of the games look at the stat sheet. They see all those rushing attempts by a QB and assume they were all called passes where Cam bailed on the play and just ran for his life, whereas in reality many of them are called run plays for him, especially at the goal line.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Warren Moon was about as much of a dual threat as Peyton Manning was/is.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I really like Andrew Luck and I am excited to see how he does as a pro. However, Cam has already proven to be a top end QB at the professional level. You simply HAVE to go with Cam Newton. There have been too many top end "can't miss" QB prospects that never end up panning out in the pros. There is no way that I can choose any unknown over Cam Newton after what he has shown at this level. It's crazy to imagine how much better can will be given more time as well. He is already such a stud, it's amazing to think that he has only played 8 professional games. He can already make the big time throws, and the big times runs... just imagine what can happen when the game starts slowing down even more through his eyes.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

I really like Andrew Luck and I am excited to see how he does as a pro. However, Cam has already proven to be a top end QB at the professional level. You simply HAVE to go with Cam Newton. There have been too many top end "can't miss" QB prospects that never end up panning out in the pros. There is no way that I can choose any unknown over Cam Newton after what he has shown at this level. It's crazy to imagine how much better can will be given more time as well. He is already such a stud, it's amazing to think that he has only played 8 professional games. He can already make the big time throws, and the big times runs... just imagine what can happen when the game starts slowing down even more through his eyes.

What is his ceiling in your opinion?

 

[Smack Tripper]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too.

Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

If "HE" is Steve Young, then HE won three rings, not one.

No, Joe won the other two for him.

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I really like Andrew Luck and I am excited to see how he does as a pro. However, Cam has already proven to be a top end QB at the professional level. You simply HAVE to go with Cam Newton. There have been too many top end "can't miss" QB prospects that never end up panning out in the pros. There is no way that I can choose any unknown over Cam Newton after what he has shown at this level. It's crazy to imagine how much better can will be given more time as well. He is already such a stud, it's amazing to think that he has only played 8 professional games. He can already make the big time throws, and the big times runs... just imagine what can happen when the game starts slowing down even more through his eyes.

What is his ceiling in your opinion?

That's a pretty tough question to answer. As far as the numbers that he puts up, or as far as the Championships that he can win? Of course... Carolina needs a lot more parts to the puzzle for him have any sort of hope to even come close to winning a Super Bowl. I really don't like guessing ceilings and floors for players, because it's really nothing more than a guess that can clearly go either way based on a ton of factors... main one being what team he is playing for. However, what I do know is... Cam Newton has already proven to be a top end QB 8 games into his rookie season on a subpar team. I can only imagine how far he could go if he was actually on a really good team. As much as I really like Andrew Luck, and I think that he will be a great QB. There is always a chance that he does no better than Ryan Leaf in the pros. Of course, his character seems much stronger than Leaf... I am just stating that the history of the NFL is loaded with "can't miss" QB prospects who never could catch up to the speed of the NFL. Knowing that... given the choice in this thread as of right now... I would HAVE to choose Cam Newton based on what he has already proven at this level. Although, obviously if they were both coming out of college at the same time I would have taken Luck without thinking twice.

 

[GDogg]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too.

Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

If "HE" is Steve Young, then HE won three rings, not one.

No, Joe won the other two for him.

Nope. As I said, teams win rings, not single players. I wasn't sure what you were talking about prior to this post.

In any case, Steve Young didn't just have the profile and of a pocket passer. His profile extended beyond that. He was a fantastic runner. It's why he is the best dual threat QB ever.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Huge Andrew Luck fan. I think he might be the best QB prospect to come out since Peyton Manning. Luck is a much better athlete than Manning so the only point of comparison are the conceptual skills and work ethic. However, I have to agree with those who would opt for Newton because of the fact that he's a more proven commodity that his game is translating to the pros.

That's the most difficult part of evaluating players is that projection to the next level. I think Luck could actually wind up better than Newton, but Newton has been amazingly good. I have to say that Newton's play is quite possibly the most surprising story in the NFL in many years. Not because he wasn't a good prospect. His arm, athleticism, and throwing fundamentals were good enough to think he'd be what Daunte Culpepper could have been at his best if he worked at the game, stayed in shape, and didn't get hurt. In other words, a more mobile player along the lines of Ben Roethlisberger or Steve McNair without the injuries and a HOF caliber receiver.

However, to expect any quarterback to play as well as Newton has from the pocket in his first year is just mind-boggling. His reads and poise is just alarmingly better than anyone could have realistically projected. Newton's work ethic was documented, but not celebrated to the level it deserved. If I had to make the call it would agonizingly close, but Newton is the guy.

A side note here is that it would be ironic if the so-so QB class of 2011 that was going to get trumped by the 2012 class actually outdoes the 2012 class. Newton, Ponder, and Dalton are all looking pretty good for rookies. Gabbert and Locker still have a shot to be good or very good and there's still Colin Kaepernick learning behind the scenes.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It just occurred to me that during this entire discussion of scrambling QBs vs traditional pocket passers we've been reaching back to guys like Steve Young vs. Randall Cunningham and have completely ignored the fact that Aaron freaking Rodgers went for 350+ yards and 4 TDs just last year.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Newton has already proven himself against real NFL teams.

No matter how much potential everyone thinks Luck has, it is still unproven at the NFL level.

Count me in for this line of thinking. I also seriously underestimated Newton, but the pendeliumm may have swung too far the other way now. There are flaws in his game to be exploited, and the next chapter of Newton joining the elite will be whether or not he can adjust and keep adjusting and adapting. I guess part of the halo of success is, I feel like he WILL make that adjustment.

Luck, he should be good, but I'm not sure about his arm.

Just curious as to what those flaws are?The only thing I've seen is some poor decision making at the end of games. The way Cam was throwing the ball last week, you'd be hard pressed to find another NFL QB that could make the same throws. If the Panthers can find one WR2 that is as talented as the first guy off the bench on most other NFL teams Cam will take the next step forward.

I haven't seen every snap of panther football so I'll be upfront with that. But the potential weaknesses will be the more exotic packages he'll face, even this season, as it becomes clear that you don't want to let him beat you. I think it was articulated far better up the thread about the tendency to respect and work from the pocket vs the instinct to use what god gave you and improvise outside of the pocket. It's a great ability to have but if you get flushed out and bite too frequently, I think you're more apt to turn the ball over one way or the other, as well as put yourself out for bigger and harder hits. I also think its much different playing soft coverage when you're trailing versus staying competitive for 60'minutes. I think the turnovers are correctable and also a byproduct of winging it because you're trailing and being young, but they are a red flag at the moment. There are many who lived on talent and didn't absorb the game within the game within the game. Not saying cam cant or won't, he's fun to watch, I hope he does and based on his own evidenced will to win, I think be will, but until you do, it's speculation.

Sorry, but I think both points are invalid. Newton doesn't rely on his talents too quickly, in fact, he typically doesn't look to run until after the third read is made and nothing is available...or he is flushed out of the pocket. If he has receivers and there is protection, he rarely ever runs. In fact, here is a recent quote from Greg Cosell based on his observation of Newton..

Greg Cosell on Cam Newton: Have to drag him out of pocket w/ a ball & chain. Intuitively understands game played at highest level in pocket.

The second point isn't valid at all, because Carolina hasn't been down in games this season. The only game that they lost by more than one score was against Atlanta, where they actually led late in the game.

Newton certainly has to show that he can sustain what he has shown so far, but a lot of the negatives that are brought up about him are a case of people who haven't really watched him play this season. The one major thing that Newton will need to learn how to do going into the second half of the season and next year is closing out games. He has had three separate games this season where he had a chance to win from inside the redzone in the last two minutes of the game. One time, he completed a pass on fourth down that ended up a yard short, another time he rushed and ended up about two yards short. The last time was this past weekend, when he actually did produce a first a goal situation that was called back by penalty, eventually leading to a field goal attempt to take the game to overtime. Olindo Mare missed a 31 yard field goal though.

While he probably couldn't have done much differently last week, the other two games are situations where he will need to show that he can win in as the team moves forward. This team could easily have a winning record right now with just a few things breaking differently, and his success in the future will be based on how he continues to handle those moments.

It's actually a very similar situation to Manning's rookie season. He put up great numbers and put his team in a position to win almost every game, but they just kept ending up a little bit short. The next season, they went 13-3 and the rest is history. We'll see if Cam can follow in his footsteps.

This is fair, I knew they were close in the Green Bay game. I have looked but can't find a passing breakdown by quarter and half, but based on the splits I've seen, you're right on point one. But the fact of the matter is, even if you're getting one garbage drive in per game, its going to affect your digits over a 7 game sample. And as I said, I haven't come close to watching every snap of every game, I really have seen 4 Panther games and a half of another so my view of him is less than yours. The team around him stinks outside of Steve Smith, and he succeeds probably inspite of Fox, not because of him, so those are factors to consider, but I would say those game closing moments are going to be ones to watch. I think he'll find it, he's doing remarkable things for a player of his age.

A more interesting question than is he better than Luck might be, who had a better rookie season, him or Roethelsberger?

 

[Smack Tripper]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too.

Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

If "HE" is Steve Young, then HE won three rings, not one.

No, Joe won the other two for him.

Nope. As I said, teams win rings, not single players. I wasn't sure what you were talking about prior to this post.

In any case, Steve Young didn't just have the profile and of a pocket passer. His profile extended beyond that. He was a fantastic runner. It's why he is the best dual threat QB ever.

Well thats a ludicrious table to evaluate quarterbacks by. You're either driving the bus or riding in the back. He didn't even start a game in the years they won the other titles. Is Earl Morrell a better QB than Dan Marino or Peyton Manning by that logic?

 

[timschochet]

I really think both are going to be great quarterbacks in the NFL and I would be happy to have either one. Both will be huge stars, and I'm betting both will end up their careers with one or more rings (though a lot of that has to do with health and who plays with them.)

I know that I'm supposed to choose one guy here but I don't want to and anyhow who knows? Both will be among the best, I believe, of this still new decade.

 

[Reepicheep]

It just occurred to me that during this entire discussion of scrambling QBs vs traditional pocket passers we've been reaching back to guys like Steve Young vs. Randall Cunningham and have completely ignored the fact that Aaron freaking Rodgers went for 350+ yards and 4 TDs just last year.

+1Rodgers is an example of elite passing skills with modest running abilities - he's good enough to take advantage of it if you leave the field open for him, but he's not going to run you over or juke you out of your cleats.

All things being equal, it is always better to have the ability to make plays with your feet. If it is used as a crutch, it can inhibit progress as a passer (see Vick 1.0). But I am pretty sure if you asked Rodgers if he could have all his current skills and abilities as a passer, plus Cam Newtons body, he would say "yes."

To this point we have not seen a single player develop elite passing game to pair with elite rushing skills. It would be basically the holy grail of NFL skill combinations. We have seen some glimpses of it with Vick. Newton has the potential. At some point it is going to happen, if not Newton, then someone else will come along, and when it does . . . sit down and buckle up.

 

[CalBear]

To this point we have not seen a single player develop elite passing game to pair with elite rushing skills.

Daunte Culpepper did, although he didn't maintain it. He was top-5 in passing yardage three times (#1 once), and averaged 5.2 ypc with 34 career rushing TDs.

 

[encaitar]

Tough call. I think I would still choose Luck. Cam looks good, but he also looks very mistake prone. He doesn't feel the backside pressure coming(an instinct that guys like Rodgers, Manning, Brady, etc. seem to have), he throws some passes he just shouldn't even consider and he doesn't change plays at the line very often. Luck does all of these three things superbly(obviously against easier competition, but still). Luck seems to know before the play even happens which receiver will be open, something that took even great QBs like Brady and Rodgers years to figure out. He always seems to sense the pass rush, and he calls almost all the teams plays from the line.

They both have great arms, Luck's being a little more accurate. They both can run, obviously Newton is all world in this category. And they both have great poise. I just think Luck will be the BEST QB in the league in 5 years, where Newton's upside is to be a top 5 QB in this league.

 

[massraider]

I will go with Newton, and here's why:

1. He is making the NFL his freaking playground. Imagine if he wasn't on a team that was bad enough to have the #1 pick last year.

2. No mini-camp, abbreviated training camp, one decent WR, a defense that has no linebackers left, and is letting up points as fast as Cam can score them. And people say he is gonna regress? Hey fellas, this might be the worst Cam is ever gonna be. Wrap your noggin around that one. Wait till he learns to read NFL defenses better. Wait till he makes better decisions.

Fact is, if Luck comes in and rips it up after 8 weeks, no one is going to say, "Well, wait till teams learn to gameplan against him." And the reason, whether people want to admit it or not, is because everyone was wrong about Cam Newton. Talk about grasping at straws. This isn't some young pitcher that only throws the high heater, and everyone catches on.

Teams are going to gameplan against him? Sweet! Any of you amateur Belichicks got him figured out yet? Here's my call: Defend the whole dang field. Make sure you spy Cam, in case he takes off. Oh, and cover Stewart and the two tight ends on the short stuff. But make sure you defend 50 yards downfield, because if Cam gets pressure, and buys some time, one of these WRs is going to head for the end zone, and Cam is going to flick a 50 yard pass while checking out the hottie in the 3rd row. Gameplan, my nuts.

No knock to Luck, I have no reason to believe he won't be a perennial Pro Bowler, but if Luck had these numbers in his 4th year, everyone would be happy.

 

[encaitar]

To this point we have not seen a single player develop elite passing game to pair with elite rushing skills.

Daunte Culpepper did, although he didn't maintain it. He was top-5 in passing yardage three times (#1 once), and averaged 5.2 ypc with 34 career rushing TDs.

I think people forget how good Culpepper was before his knee injury. Go look at his stats from 2000-2005 and try to tell me that isn't what you envision Cam becoming as a QB.

 

[Reepicheep]

To this point we have not seen a single player develop elite passing game to pair with elite rushing skills.

Daunte Culpepper did, although he didn't maintain it. He was top-5 in passing yardage three times (#1 once), and averaged 5.2 ypc with 34 career rushing TDs.

I think people forget how good Culpepper was before his knee injury. Go look at his stats from 2000-2005 and try to tell me that isn't what you envision Cam becoming as a QB.

To be honest I kind of forgot about Culpepper. Partly because his prime years were a period where I was not following the NFL closely, and partly because he never really did it consistently. As a passer, he had a great year, two average years, a great year, and MVP-caliber year, then just meh after the injury. I would say Culpepper circa 2004 is what is envisioned, only having more than one season like that.

 

[GDogg]

What have you to say about Andrew Luck? Traditional pocket passers with rocket arms line the halls of Canton Ohio's MVP trophies. That is pretty much the recipe and it has been for generations. It's what works. McNabb, Cunningham, Moon were all great dual threat QB's, but who ended up with the Super Bowl rings?

Oh. Okay. If that is your argument - Cam runs, running QBs don't win rings - just say so.But take away Cam's ability to run, and he is STILL the best rookie QB we have seen in some time. But, if it is a negative, in your eyes, that Cam does more than the traditional QB (while offering all of the same skills), then nothing I, or Cam, can say or do to change your mind.

I just did plainly say that running QB's don't win rings. So you can now quote me on this. Would I rather have Rodgers/Brady or Vick? I think the answer is plain as day. Now, I like that style. It's entertaining. It even wins a ton of games and gets teams to playoff runs sometimes. But the rings are won by the prototypical QB. If you have any data or analysis that refutes this, please offer it up. TIA.

Rings are won by the best (or pretty close to the best) teams, not necessarily prototypical QBs.Steve Young won multiple rings and he was a running QB, who also happened to be a great passing QB.

Well HE only won one ring and he definitely had the profile and ability of a pocket passer. He HAPPENED to run too. But I think he is probably the best and fairest comparison to Newfon I've seen. I don't think Cam is a run first guy. He has a bit of the 90s favre to him too.

Oh yeah, and Rodney peete, andre ware and akilli smith.

If "HE" is Steve Young, then HE won three rings, not one.

No, Joe won the other two for him.

Nope. As I said, teams win rings, not single players. I wasn't sure what you were talking about prior to this post.

In any case, Steve Young didn't just have the profile and of a pocket passer. His profile extended beyond that. He was a fantastic runner. It's why he is the best dual threat QB ever.

Well thats a ludicrious table to evaluate quarterbacks by. You're either driving the bus or riding in the back. He didn't even start a game in the years they won the other titles. Is Earl Morrell a better QB than Dan Marino or Peyton Manning by that logic?

Huh? What logic? I'm not the one arguing that rings are won by any particular type of QB (dual threat vs. pure pocket) or that they are indicative of a great QB. You want to take this up with Raiderfan.Super Bowl rings, in general, are a bad way to evaluate QBs.

And, yeah, Steve Young did start games in the years they won titles. In 1988, he played in 11 and started 3. He went 2-1. In 1989, he played in 10 and started 3. He went 3-0 and absolutely tore it up (69.6% comp and 120.8 QB rating), making it clear that the Niners were in great hands even if Montana never played another down for them.

 

[Reepicheep]

I will go with Newton, and here's why:

1. He is making the NFL his freaking playground. Imagine if he wasn't on a team that was bad enough to have the #1 pick last year.

2. No mini-camp, abbreviated training camp, one decent WR, a defense that has no linebackers left, and is letting up points as fast as Cam can score them. And people say he is gonna regress? Hey fellas, this might be the worst Cam is ever gonna be. Wrap your noggin around that one. Wait till he learns to read NFL defenses better. Wait till he makes better decisions.

Fact is, if Luck comes in and rips it up after 8 weeks, no one is going to say, "Well, wait till teams learn to gameplan against him." And the reason, whether people want to admit it or not, is because everyone was wrong about Cam Newton. Talk about grasping at straws. This isn't some young pitcher that only throws the high heater, and everyone catches on.

Teams are going to gameplan against him? Sweet! Any of you amateur Belichicks got him figured out yet? Here's my call: Defend the whole dang field. Make sure you spy Cam, in case he takes off. Oh, and cover Stewart and the two tight ends on the short stuff. But make sure you defend 50 yards downfield, because if Cam gets pressure, and buys some time, one of these WRs is going to head for the end zone, and Cam is going to flick a 50 yard pass while checking out the hottie in the 3rd row. Gameplan, my nuts.

No knock to Luck, I have no reason to believe he won't be a perennial Pro Bowler, but if Luck had these numbers in his 4th year, everyone would be happy.

Love this, awesome post.