Dynasty Rankings (1 Viewer)

[SSOG]

Since the discussion has shifted primarily to WRs what are Larry Fitz owners doing? I've been trying to shop him in my main league for both DT, Julio and Harvin (offering Fitz+ in both cases) but with no luck so far.I know he's talented and the law of averages would suggest AZ has to get someone who can throw him the ball at some point but I'm running out of patience.Also, same question re Kenny Britt. Personally I'm holding him at the moment, bought in the offseason just before his arrest happened and it seems stupid to move him now. In a situation where I've waited this long am I crazy for valuing him as if he's fully healthy?

Julio owner offered me Julio for Fitzgerald, Austin, a 2013 first (likely high), and a 2014 first (mid-to-high). I told him to take a hike.

Fitz is one of those guys who is going to play well into his mid/late 30's. he works as hard as anyone in the nfl and his game isn't based on pure speed.His mentality and work ethic is the closest to Jerry rice that we've had. He's under rated as his career span will be much longer then other Wr's. I consider him in the same boat as 24-25 yr old Wr's since he'll be producing at an elite level as long as those guys..

Agreed. I'm counting on 5-6 more years from him. Still on the right side of 30, master technician, and the best workout and conditioning program in the league. Plus he has those intangibles- the fiery competitiveness, the drive to be the best, the love of the game- that will prevent him from Randy Moss-like irrelevance. He's not an old guy. His countdown timer is not ticking. His value is artificially low right now, but it's not leaking, so there's no pressure to move him now before the bottom falls out. There's no reason to panic-trade him for a penny less than he's actually worth.

 

[Donsmith753]

Since the discussion has shifted primarily to WRs what are Larry Fitz owners doing? I've been trying to shop him in my main league for both DT, Julio and Harvin (offering Fitz+ in both cases) but with no luck so far.I know he's talented and the law of averages would suggest AZ has to get someone who can throw him the ball at some point but I'm running out of patience.Also, same question re Kenny Britt. Personally I'm holding him at the moment, bought in the offseason just before his arrest happened and it seems stupid to move him now. In a situation where I've waited this long am I crazy for valuing him as if he's fully healthy?

Julio owner offered me Julio for Fitzgerald, Austin, a 2013 first (likely high), and a 2014 first (mid-to-high). I told him to take a hike.

Fitz is one of those guys who is going to play well into his mid/late 30's. he works as hard as anyone in the nfl and his game isn't based on pure speed.His mentality and work ethic is the closest to Jerry rice that we've had. He's under rated as his career span will be much longer then other Wr's. I consider him in the same boat as 24-25 yr old Wr's since he'll be producing at an elite level as long as those guys..

Agreed. I'm counting on 5-6 more years from him. Still on the right side of 30, master technician, and the best workout and conditioning program in the league. Plus he has those intangibles- the fiery competitiveness, the drive to be the best, the love of the game- that will prevent him from Randy Moss-like irrelevance. He's not an old guy. His countdown timer is not ticking. His value is artificially low right now, but it's not leaking, so there's no pressure to move him now before the bottom falls out. There's no reason to panic-trade him for a penny less than he's actually worth.

Thanks for putting my mind at rest. Best offer I received was Mike Wallace straight up. Didn't really interest me.

 

[Concept Coop]

I know this might be slightly off topic, but:

Am I panicking if I am considering trading my 2013 draft picks for 2014? This class reminds me a bit of the 2011 class, if you take out Julio and Green. I know players will emerge - Doug Martin wasn't a 1st round pick at this time last year, and that always happens. But I don't see any top end talent, outside of Geno Smith. There is depth at the WR spot, but aside from maybe Hunter, I don't see elite talent there, either.

 

[MAC_32]

I know this might be slightly off topic, but:

Am I panicking if I am considering trading my 2013 draft picks for 2014? This class reminds me a bit of the 2011 class, if you take out Julio and Green. I know players will emerge - Doug Martin wasn't a 1st round pick at this time last year, and that always happens. But I don't see any top end talent, outside of Geno Smith. There is depth at the WR spot, but aside from maybe Hunter, I don't see elite talent there, either.

I'm in an IDP league so a guy like Te'o is there to consider, but unless I'm in a spot to get him, Geno, or Keenan Allen I'd be open to this idea. I wouldn't try to make this move right now, but if it came up in trade talks I would consider it whereas some years I'd just flat out say no - lets try something else. Like 2010 I think it's something that's more likelyto happen around draft time when picks are most valuable. I had the 9th pick in 2010 (no one stuck out) and dealt it for a 2011 #1 and a 2010 #3.

 

[SSOG]

I know this might be slightly off topic, but:Am I panicking if I am considering trading my 2013 draft picks for 2014? This class reminds me a bit of the 2011 class, if you take out Julio and Green. I know players will emerge - Doug Martin wasn't a 1st round pick at this time last year, and that always happens. But I don't see any top end talent, outside of Geno Smith. There is depth at the WR spot, but aside from maybe Hunter, I don't see elite talent there, either.

Nope. I've got a likely top4 2013 first, and I'm actively shopping it straight up for a 2014 first from some of the weaker teams. Haven't heard back from anyone yet.

 

[jeter23]

I know this might be slightly off topic, but:Am I panicking if I am considering trading my 2013 draft picks for 2014? This class reminds me a bit of the 2011 class, if you take out Julio and Green. I know players will emerge - Doug Martin wasn't a 1st round pick at this time last year, and that always happens. But I don't see any top end talent, outside of Geno Smith. There is depth at the WR spot, but aside from maybe Hunter, I don't see elite talent there, either.

I think the general idea is a good one, but my theory is that draft time is the best chance to sell picks, even in a weak year. I would wait until your draft begins.

 

[Concept Coop]

Nope. I've got a likely top4 2013 first, and I'm actively shopping it straight up for a 2014 first from some of the weaker teams. Haven't heard back from anyone yet.

It's bad. You figure 2 RBs will get drafted as projected starters, so their stock will jump drastically. Think LeShoure, Williams, Tate, Thomas, Vereen (Obviously not all ended up starting). Add that to 1-2 that get drafted in to questionable situations, but early with some talent. 3-4 WRs in the first, which is great, except none in the first 10 picks. 2 QBs top 5, but neither are Luck/RG3 level. Geno has special upside due to his running ability. The TE spot, I actually do like. I really like Jordan Reed and Eifert looks like a 1st round pick. Guys I am actually excited about:QB - GenoRB - Randle, depending on situationWR - Hunter TE - Reed

 

[Concept Coop]

I think the general idea is a good one, but my theory is that draft time is the best chance to sell picks, even in a weak year. I would wait until your draft begins.

Very good point. And future picks often are at their lowest value in the offseason. Everyone thinks they are in the hunt, and/or need 1 to 2 parts now.

 

[JFS171]

I'm personally hoping to convert two early 2s into a 2014 1 (both are likely top 20 picks in a 16-teamer).

Not sure I'll be able to pull it off, but that's the goal.

 

[Concept Coop]

A name to keep an eye on, for those looking for the next Gronk/Graham: Jordan Reed. I love this guys game and prospects at the next level. A huge athlete with good hands, body control, and speed for his size. Played QB in HS, and some out of the wildcat for Fla. Florida hasn't been equipped to use him as much as they should, as they have been transitioning post-Tebow/Meyer. I think that has kept him from getting more buzz. But I think he is a special player. I am a big Florida fan, and Hernandez fan, and like Reed more than I did Hernandez at this point in the process.

Sorry for the rant, and I am back on topic now.

 

[Donsmith753]

I've moved all my 2013 picks across all leagues in the last few months.

(8 picks over 3 leagues)

I have only done two 13 for 14 swaps but have used others to as add ins to trade for pieces (Trent/RG3)

 

[Kree]

I already traded my 2013 1st in the offseason for Vincent Brown. Painful in regards to what it could be worth now on reflection (3-5, 11th/12 teams, mediocre scoring team due to injuries, but pointtotheshirt)

Most had my team pinned as an easy division winner. So there's always that risk you're turning over a decent pick for a bad pick, even if the class is heavier.

That being said, there really isn't anyone from the class I'm enamoured with that is that high up anyway. Would definitely be looking @ 2014 firsts instead.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Going deep here: anyone have any opinions on Tyrod Taylor?

 

[EBF]

Going deep here: anyone have any opinions on Tyrod Taylor?

Watched him a good deal in the Rams/Ravens preseason game. Good arm. Good feet. No vision. No instincts. Not a playmaker in the passing game. He should be playing WR IMO.

 

[EBF]

There is depth at the WR spot, but aside from maybe Hunter, I don't see elite talent there, either.

Marcus Davis. 6'4" 230. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z3fbJ_vYvMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsfUjDxb8ighttp://youtu.be/Qxb5yN516lE?t=48sCalling right now that he will be a top 30 pick in April. Not as instinctive as Allen or Woods, but has better tools. Shades of Demaryius Thomas or Vincent Jackson. Could end up as the #1 prospect on my board come draft day. But yea, this class sucks at the top. Blame Mike Dyer's brain and Marcus Lattimore's knees.

 

[lbouchard]

It might have been mentioned a few times in passing, but right now, I feel that RBs are pretty bad, not just for 2013 NFL draft, but dynasty as a whole. So many guys suck/are underperforming (CJ?K, DMC, Mathews, Charles), hurt (Murray, MJD), or aren't great PPR options (Ridley, Morris). Even Shady is underperforming relative to expectations, and Foster is currently RB1, supported by a huge number of carries. I can't really make sense of RB right now.

 

[SSOG]

It might have been mentioned a few times in passing, but right now, I feel that RBs are pretty bad, not just for 2013 NFL draft, but dynasty as a whole. So many guys suck/are underperforming (CJ?K, DMC, Mathews, Charles), hurt (Murray, MJD), or aren't great PPR options (Ridley, Morris). Even Shady is underperforming relative to expectations, and Foster is currently RB1, supported by a huge number of carries. I can't really make sense of RB right now.

I forget if it was this thread or another, but I was talking about that earlier. Back in 2009, something like 12 of the top 30 RBs were 24 or older ("young"), and another 8 or so were 25-26 ("middle aged"). This year, 5 RBs are young and 10 are middle aged. In 2009, the top four fantasy backs (Rice, Peterson, Johnson, Jones-Drew) were all 24 or younger. This season, you've got Richardson, Ridley, Martin, Morris, and Murray, and everyone else worth owning is already at the peak or on the downside. And next year's draft class at RB doesn't offer a whole lot of hope. Just a really, really weak time for dynasty RBs. On the other hand, it's a great time for dynasty WRs.

 

[renesauz]

Things will clarify prior to the draft...there will still be 5 or 6 studs to come out of the draft, just like every other year. Those studs aren't always obvious in late October/early November, but I can think of at least two RBs and 4 WR's that I really like, as well as at least 1 TE. QB is another story, but this is coming off of what might have been the greatest QB draft class ever.

 

[I was in the pool]

Wasn't Thomas balling out last year with freaking Tebow throwing the rock?

He had 745 yards in his last 9 games with Tebow, and that includes a 0 for 0 game when he was still finding his footing. He has 1424 receiving yards in his last 16 NFL games (including playoffs). He is on pace for 1552 yards this year. If you're tempted to attribute all of that improvement to Manning, bear in mind that Thomas is just 24 and has played less than two full seasons of games. He is still learning and improving.

To add some metrics to the conversation, Demaryius Thomas obviously suffered through Tebow last year (only 57% of his target were accurate). Now with Peyton, 80% of his targets are accurate, which is one of the highest in the league. His targets are generally shorter FWIW. Now, the argument that Demaryius' targets are more efficient than the other top WRs is correct. Julio, for example, is in the mid-60s for QB accuracy as well as Reggie Wayne just to pick two receivers. Harvin's QB accuracy is around 80% as well, but his targets are shorter than everyone's in that tier. So yes, Demaryius and Decker are benefiting greatly from Peyton playing as well or better than he left off in Indy.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Thomas's last seven games with Tebow: 35-745-4

Thomas's first seven games with Manning: 39-679-4

He's QB proof. And 74-1424-8 over 14 games is 19ppg.

 

[dewmass]

RB1. Richardson2. Rice3. Foster4. AD5. Shady6. Martin7. Forte8. Mathews9. Charles10. Marshawn11. Reggie12. Spiller13. J Stew14. DMC15. Sproles16. LeShoure17. Gore18. F Jackson19. Bradshaw20. C Johnson21. Ridley22. McGahee23. MJD24. Murray25. Morris26. S Jackson27. Turner28. Law Firm29. R Jennings30. Dwyer31. B Tate32. Hillman33. Lamar Miller34. David Wilson35. Ingram36. D Richardson37. Quizz38. Turbin39. Mendenhall40. S Greene41. P Thomas42. M Bush43. A Green44. Beanie45. DeAng46. Benson47. Hunter48. Ryan Williams49. Donald Brown50. LMJ

Firstly thanks for going to the trouble and the time that doing those rankings must have taken. This boards is absolutely amazing in my humble opinion, hence my low post count, I couldn't hope to have the knowledge everyone has on here.Anyway, the one that stands out here is Stewart. I've gone back over the past month or so and I know he's been discussed frequently, but does anyone else see him in the 13 range? This is someone who could be expected to be acquired as I'd imagine most owners would leave him on the bench due to the inconsistency or frankly complete lack of production.I've traded for Cam and after reading the thread sent a Tampa Mike, Kevin Smith and 2013 2nd offer, but I quickly cancelled it after reading posts on here saying they'd sell at almost any priceIf he really is a potential 13th RB, now would be a great time to buy

 

[Concept Coop]

Thomas's last seven games with Tebow: 35-745-4Thomas's first seven games with Manning: 39-679-4He's QB proof. And 74-1424-8 over 14 games is 19ppg.

As crazy as it sounds, he benefitted from the Tebow/Denver offense too. Hear me out:As the split out WR, teams don't want to double team him before they have to; they want play zone (with the safeties) and only double over the top. Example: Last night. The Chargers played Bowe 1v1 all night, because he was used as an underneath weapon. Dropping LBs in to zone, or doubling outright really only works as a change of pace. If an offense can predict it, it is easy to take advantage of. So, regardless of the system, Thomas is going to get a lot of single coverage underneath, and will be doubled often over the top. With Tebow, teams could be lulled to sleep, and had to commit extra attention to the QB. The played a lot of all out zone too, which allowed Thomas to catch the ball in space, and make plays, which is his bread and butter. It also, often, gave him single coverage over the top, as Tebow could freeze the safeties cheating up. So, the quality of each target was less, but the potential for big plays, which is what DT is, was increased over the average NFL situation. With Manning, the quality of each target is better, and Manning is potentially the best of all time at diagnosing a defense to determine when Thomas will have single coverage deep. So when the defense leaves Thomas' man on an island, Manning is going to find him. Teams have less incentive to sell out on Thomas, because of the variety of ways Manning can hurt them. I won't go too much more into it, but to suggest Thomas is situation proof is quite a claim to me. As we have seen Larry Fitzgerald isn't situation proof. I actually don't know that Larry would do any better than Thomas in the Tebow situation; but Thomas surely wouldn't do as well as Larry has in his. AJ Green is a nice mix of the two - a bigger homerun hitter than Larry, and a better underneath weapon than Thomas.

 

[Concept Coop]

Anyway, the one that stands out here is Stewart. I've gone back over the past month or so and I know he's been discussed frequently, but does anyone else see him in the 13 range? If he really is a potential 13th RB, now would be a great time to buy

I don't. Eventually, we have to learn, right? It would be one thing if Cam wasn't getting over 50% of the goal line carries - the team is phasing Williams out. But Stewart is in a less than ideal situation, even assuming the Panthers get him the ball 15-17 times a game. Injury history on top of that.I do think he is a good buy, or, at the very least, was until a week or two ago. He is a talent and still young, but I don't expect RB1 numbers anytime soon. RB13 is simply too rich for my blood. RB13 would allow you to acquire both MJD and R. Jennings, and I would much rather that combo. In general, assuming his value was RB13, I would rather spend a bit more for a guy like Forte. Or a bit less for players like Bradshaw, Murray, MJD, Ridley, CJ1K, etcetera.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

A name to keep an eye on, for those looking for the next Gronk/Graham: Jordan Reed. I love this guys game and prospects at the next level. A huge athlete with good hands, body control, and speed for his size. Played QB in HS, and some out of the wildcat for Fla. Florida hasn't been equipped to use him as much as they should, as they have been transitioning post-Tebow/Meyer. I think that has kept him from getting more buzz. But I think he is a special player. I am a big Florida fan, and Hernandez fan, and like Reed more than I did Hernandez at this point in the process. Sorry for the rant, and I am back on topic now.

Agreed on Reed. He's a guy that many are overlooking because he's been surrounded by some truly awful QB play for his entire college career. It's saying something when one of the most successful QBs he's played with during his time in college is himself. He's not just been a wildcat guy either, he actually started as a QB against Vandy in his freshman year and went 11-19 for 120yds and a touchdown.That said, he's more similar to Hernandez than Gronk/Graham, even without the Florida comparisons. He's athletic like Hernandez, and a natural receiver, but he doesn't have the height that Gronk/Graham use to dominate in the redzone (they've each got 5"-6" on him). That said, the next Hernandez isn't so bad either. Last second season ending fumbles aside, the guy is money.

 

[Concept Coop]

That said, he's more similar to Hernandez than Gronk/Graham, even without the Florida comparisons. He's athletic like Hernandez, and a natural receiver, but he doesn't have the height that Gronk/Graham use to dominate in the redzone (they've each got 5"-6" on him). That said, the next Hernandez isn't so bad either. Last second season ending fumbles aside, the guy is money.

I'd say a mix between Hern and Gronk, leaning more towards Hern. He is 6'3", so 2 inches taller than Hernandez and 3 inches shorter than Gronk. He isn't quite as fluid as Hernandez, but I think he has better hands, is taller, and has a bigger frame, even though their weight is similar today.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Thomas's last seven games with Tebow: 35-745-4Thomas's first seven games with Manning: 39-679-4He's QB proof. And 74-1424-8 over 14 games is 19ppg.

As crazy as it sounds, he benefitted from the Tebow/Denver offense too. Hear me out:As the split out WR, teams don't want to double team him before they have to; they want play zone (with the safeties) and only double over the top. Example: Last night. The Chargers played Bowe 1v1 all night, because he was used as an underneath weapon. Dropping LBs in to zone, or doubling outright really only works as a change of pace. If an offense can predict it, it is easy to take advantage of. So, regardless of the system, Thomas is going to get a lot of single coverage underneath, and will be doubled often over the top. With Tebow, teams could be lulled to sleep, and had to commit extra attention to the QB. The played a lot of all out zone too, which allowed Thomas to catch the ball in space, and make plays, which is his bread and butter. It also, often, gave him single coverage over the top, as Tebow could freeze the safeties cheating up. So, the quality of each target was less, but the potential for big plays, which is what DT is, was increased over the average NFL situation. With Manning, the quality of each target is better, and Manning is potentially the best of all time at diagnosing a defense to determine when Thomas will have single coverage deep. So when the defense leaves Thomas' man on an island, Manning is going to find him. Teams have less incentive to sell out on Thomas, because of the variety of ways Manning can hurt them.

I'm very high on Thomas, but I completely agree here. While there's obviously no comparison between Tebow and Manning as QBs, there's also no comparison between the types of coverages that Thomas saw when Tebow was playing compared to what he'll ever see again throughout the rest of his career.

 

[DoubleG]

Thomas's last seven games with Tebow: 35-745-4

Thomas's first seven games with Manning: 39-679-4

He's QB proof. And 74-1424-8 over 14 games is 19ppg.

Incredible stats. Nicely done. He might not be Green or even Calvin - but he's very close.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

That said, he's more similar to Hernandez than Gronk/Graham, even without the Florida comparisons. He's athletic like Hernandez, and a natural receiver, but he doesn't have the height that Gronk/Graham use to dominate in the redzone (they've each got 5"-6" on him). That said, the next Hernandez isn't so bad either. Last second season ending fumbles aside, the guy is money.

I'd say a mix between Hern and Gronk, leaning more towards Hern. He is 6'3", so 2 inches taller than Hernandez and 3 inches shorter than Gronk. He isn't quite as fluid as Hernandez, but I think he has better hands, is taller, and has a bigger frame, even though their weight is similar today.

The college listings are generally fudged so I would imagine Reed is quite a bit closer to Hernandez's height than Gronk's. Rivals, for instance, listed Hernandez as 6'4"

 

[EBF]

I won't go too much more into it, but to suggest Thomas is situation proof is quite a claim to me. As we have seen Larry Fitzgerald isn't situation proof. I actually don't know that Larry would do any better than Thomas in the Tebow situation; but Thomas surely wouldn't do as well as Larry has in his. AJ Green is a nice mix of the two - a bigger homerun hitter than Larry, and a better underneath weapon than Thomas.

Fitz and Marshall are the two guys who come to mind when I think of situation-proof. They each have five straight 1000+ yard receiving seasons with any number of jokers heaving passes their way. I think Thomas can be that kind of guy if his health permits. It seems silly to bend over backwards trying to explain how he's a product of Manning and Tebow (lol) when the most obvious solution is that he's simply an elite talent. Guy has it all. Built like a tank. Runs really well. Effective at every level of the field. Deadly before and after the catch. I said that Trent Richardson is like a real life version of a "create a player" running back from a video game. That's kind of how I feel about Thomas at the WR position. Just insanely gifted. The people who aren't sold yet will come around when they run out of excuses to explain the insane numbers he drops every week.

 

[SSOG]

I don't have Bay Bay in my top 5 (Calvin, Green, Harvin, Julio, and Cruz, in one order or another), but agree that he simply has to be top 10 at this point. I also think that we owe McDaniels a bit of a retroactive apology: Demaryius over Dez was absolutely, positively, 100% the right move. Dez has turned out to be exactly the talented headcase everyone thought he'd be, but I imagine most franchises would far prefer the low-maintenance talent of Demaryius.

 

[Concept Coop]

Fitz and Marshall are the two guys who come to mind when I think of situation-proof. They each have five straight 1000+ yard receiving seasons with any number of jokers heaving passes their way. I think Thomas can be that kind of guy if his health permits. It seems silly to bend over backwards trying to explain how he's a product of Manning and Tebow (lol) when the most obvious solution is that he's simply an elite talent. Guy has it all. Built like a tank. Runs really well. Effective at every level of the field. Deadly before and after the catch. I said that Trent Richardson is like a real life version of a "create a player" running back from a video game. That's kind of how I feel about Thomas at the WR position. Just insanely gifted. The people who aren't sold yet will come around when they run out of excuses to explain the insane numbers he drops every week.

Laugh it off if you'd like. But ask yourself why Fitz and Marshall are "situation proof" in your words. If you read my "silly bending over" points, you'll see why: You can't completely remove WRs from the game when they are elite threats in the first 10 or so yards. Look at their catch totals - Bay Bay doesn't have those - he is more of a homerun hitter. Green is both. That is why Green will put up the catch numbers and the big plays.You can suggest that Thomas is being hurt by Manning spreading it around and not forcing in the ball; claim that Cincy is a better situation, but I question your understanding of the two offenses for doing so. And I agree Thomas is an elite talent, especially physically. But he is not on Green's level as an NFL WR. Or Marshall's. Or Fitzgerald's. He is not the threat that they are, right off the LOS. And he isn't built to be used as a flanker, they way the others are.

 

[thriftyrocker]

You can suggest that Thomas is being hurt by Manning spreading it around and not forcing in the ball; claim that Cincy is a better situation, but I question your understanding of the two offenses for doing so. And I agree Thomas is an elite talent, especially physically. But he is not on Green's level as an NFL WR. Or Marshall's. Or Fitzgerald's. He is not the threat that they are, right off the LOS. And he isn't built to be used as a flanker, they way the others are.

It can be both, right? He is not the natural WR that Green is. But he might benefit statistically from a Delhommian QB. The few series he had with Orton showed this, pre-Achilles. It was argued about VJax for a while when his departure from SD during Rivers' prime seemed imminent. VJax was never as natural a WR as Green or Fitzgerald either, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a lot of targets. More than he was getting.

 

[EBF]

You can suggest that Thomas is being hurt by Manning spreading it around and not forcing in the ball; claim that Cincy is a better situation, but I question your understanding of the two offenses for doing so. And I agree Thomas is an elite talent, especially physically. But he is not on Green's level as an NFL WR. Or Marshall's. Or Fitzgerald's. He is not the threat that they are, right off the LOS. And he isn't built to be used as a flanker, they way the others are.

Sounds like nonsense to me. Why isn't he as good as Marshall or Fitz? What quality do they possess that he lacks? Not sure what you are talking about when you say he isn't a threat off the LOS. He goes about 6'3" 230. He is quick off the snap and fluid in his routes (not to mention tough to jam because of his strength). Case in point...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoKy-mhxe10The guy can beat a DB any way he pleases. I liked Thomas a lot coming out of Tech, but I didn't think he'd be THIS good. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000077918/Thomas-30-yard-one-handed-catchhttp://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000086785/Thomas-leaping-41-yard-catchhttp://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/0ap1000000080971/QB-Manning-to-WR-Thomas-29-yd-pass-TDhttp://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap1000000063533/Week-2-Can-t-Miss-Thomas-tip-toes-a-touchdown

 

[Concept Coop]

You can suggest that Thomas is being hurt by Manning spreading it around and not forcing in the ball; claim that Cincy is a better situation, but I question your understanding of the two offenses for doing so. And I agree Thomas is an elite talent, especially physically. But he is not on Green's level as an NFL WR. Or Marshall's. Or Fitzgerald's. He is not the threat that they are, right off the LOS. And he isn't built to be used as a flanker, they way the others are.

It can be both, right? He is not the natural WR that Green is. But he might benefit statistically from a Delhommian QB. The few series he had with Orton showed this, pre-Achilles. It was argued about VJax for a while when his departure from SD during Rivers' prime seemed imminent. VJax was never as natural a WR as Green or Fitzgerald either, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a lot of targets. More than he was getting.

I think he is in an ideal situation for him - more ideal than Jackson in SD. I think Jackson and Thomas are a passable comparison, as far as usage goes. But Thomas isn't the "throw it up" talent that Jackson is. Granted, he is much better with the ball in his hands. I could see Thomas putting up very good numbers in a situation like TB. Fair play and good point there. But the increase in targets would surely decrease the efficiency of them as well.Thomas isn't an elite route runner, and forcing him into a Roddy/Bowe/Fitz/Marshall role would not benefit anyone involved, in my opinion. I'll simply say that, and that I greatly dispute the notion that Manning is hurting him.

 

[Donsmith753]

I don't have Bay Bay in my top 5 (Calvin, Green, Harvin, Julio, and Cruz, in one order or another), but agree that he simply has to be top 10 at this point. I also think that we owe McDaniels a bit of a retroactive apology: Demaryius over Dez was absolutely, positively, 100% the right move. Dez has turned out to be exactly the talented headcase everyone thought he'd be, but I imagine most franchises would far prefer the low-maintenance talent of Demaryius.

Agree with this tbh. SSOG, where do you have Nicks currently? Seems like only 18 months ago he was held in the same regard as guys like DT and Harvin are now.

 

[Concept Coop]

Sounds like nonsense to me. Why isn't he as good as Marshall or Fitz? What quality do they possess that he lacks? Not sure what you are talking about when you say he isn't a threat off the LOS.

He is a below average route runner and there were rumblings suggesting that Manning called him out for such before the season. It is the reason he wasn't considered an elite WR prospect out of GT. He is not as fluid in the hips and doesn't have the quick feet that the others do. He simply isn't the fluid natural receiver that they are.

 

[EBF]

Sounds like nonsense to me. Why isn't he as good as Marshall or Fitz? What quality do they possess that he lacks? Not sure what you are talking about when you say he isn't a threat off the LOS.

He is a below average route runner and there were rumblings suggesting that Manning called him out for such before the season. It is the reason he wasn't considered an elite WR prospect out of GT. He is not as fluid in the hips and doesn't have the quick feet that the others do. He simply isn't the fluid natural receiver that they are.

And that's where I think you're wrong. DT is really quick and agile for such a big body. That's part of what makes him special. Already posted this, but it's worth another look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoKy-mhxe10And there's this kickoff return from his rookie year. Not fluid in this hips? Not quick? Hah. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b05c82/Thomas-KO-returnAs for him not being considered an elite WR prospect, I'd point out that he was a first round pick and the first WR taken in his draft class despite playing in a weird run-heavy system. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Just think you are way off the mark here. The guy is a better Vincent Jackson. A faster Brandon Marshall. I encourage anyone who has a chance to buy him. We're looking at a perennial Pro Bowler as long as his health allows.

 

[thriftyrocker]

He is a below average route runner and there were rumblings suggesting that Manning called him out for such before the season. It is the reason he wasn't considered an elite WR prospect out of GT.

That's spin. He was considered an elite <em>prospect</em> due to upside and projection. He was not a good route runner and called himself out on it because he was not expected to do it before, not at GT, and not even in the McDaniels era. It's an interesting catch 22. We inflate values on guys like Hill and Quick (and Thomas) during rookie drafts because of what we see them becoming, because of upside. Then when they have a half a season, we think they'll never get better. It's that thinking that put Decker ahead of him 3 mos ago. I'll certainly believe if you've seen other reports, but all the information I saw this summer was about Thomas working to get better. Bailey saying he has progressed. Of accepting the challenge of the new QB, and being glad the old one was gone. He's not Green but he's good.

 

[Concept Coop]

[quote name='Concept Coop' timestamp='1351884838'

Just think you are way off the mark here. The guy is a better Vincent Jackson. A faster Brandon Marshall. I encourage anyone who has a chance to buy him. We're looking at a perennial Pro Bowler as long as his health allows.

He's a long strider who doesn't run great routes. He'll make pro-bowls based on physical ability, but he's not built to do what Marshall does. Highly doubt he ever bits 100 catches, let alone establish it as a baseline.

If owners in your league view DT as equal to AJ Green, I encourage everyone to cash in.

 

[Concept Coop]

That's spin. He was considered an elite <em>prospect</em> due to upside and projection. He was not a good route runner and called himself out on it because he was not expected to do it before, not at GT, and not even in the McDaniels era. It's an interesting catch 22. We inflate values on guys like Hill and Quick (and Thomas) during rookie drafts because of what we see them becoming, because of upside. Then when they have a half a season, we think they'll never get better. It's that thinking that put Decker ahead of him 3 mos ago. I'll certainly believe if you've seen other reports, but all the information I saw this summer was about Thomas working to get better. Bailey saying he has progressed. Of accepting the challenge of the new QB, and being glad the old one was gone. He's not Green but he's good.

Define elite prospect. A late first rounder on a few teams boards? He is good. And you're right: he's not Green. It's not that I don't think Thomas will get better. I am explaining why I don't feel he is on Green's level. It is fair for me to bring up route running as a concern; it clearly is. That isn't me suggesting it will never improve. It is me pointing out why he isn't on Green's level, wouldn't be putting up Green numbers in Cincy, and why Manning his helping him. That's really what this conversation is. I posted my WR rankings a couple pages ago and had Thomas top 8 or so. That shows I think he is a great talent and a great bet to put up points over his career.

 

[EBF]

[quote name='Concept Coop' timestamp='1351884838'

Just think you are way off the mark here. The guy is a better Vincent Jackson. A faster Brandon Marshall. I encourage anyone who has a chance to buy him. We're looking at a perennial Pro Bowler as long as his health allows.

He's a long strider

Only he's not.

He's tall. That doesn't make him a long strider.

The kickoff return shows what kind of instant cutting ability and hips he has. Compact strides for such a tall guy. That's rare. He is much more agile than say...Calvin Johnson. The clips show him doing all the things you say he can't do. Insisting that he's not a fluid runner doesn't hold any weight when there's clear visual evidence to the contrary.

And FWIW, you don't have to be the best route runner in the league when you are 6'3" 230. TO was never an awesome route runner, but he was a dominant player for other reasons. Thomas reminds me more of someone like Marshall or Fitzgerald than TO, but it's still worth pointing out that his strength and speed will help compensate for other deficiencies (which I don't personally think he has in the first place).

 

[SSOG]

I don't have Bay Bay in my top 5 (Calvin, Green, Harvin, Julio, and Cruz, in one order or another), but agree that he simply has to be top 10 at this point. I also think that we owe McDaniels a bit of a retroactive apology: Demaryius over Dez was absolutely, positively, 100% the right move. Dez has turned out to be exactly the talented headcase everyone thought he'd be, but I imagine most franchises would far prefer the low-maintenance talent of Demaryius.

Agree with this tbh. SSOG, where do you have Nicks currently? Seems like only 18 months ago he was held in the same regard as guys like DT and Harvin are now.

Still top10, only a few slots below his peak ranking. Not a whole lot has changed. Anyone burying him, IMO, is guilty of short-term thinking.

 

[Concept Coop]

[quote name='Concept Coop' timestamp='1351884838'

Just think you are way off the mark here. The guy is a better Vincent Jackson. A faster Brandon Marshall. I encourage anyone who has a chance to buy him. We're looking at a perennial Pro Bowler as long as his health allows.

He's a long strider

Only he's not.

He's tall. That doesn't make him a long strider.

The kickoff return shows what kind of instant cutting ability and hips he has. Compact strides for such a tall guy. That's rare. He is much more agile than say...Calvin Johnson. The clips show him doing all the things you say he can't do. Insisting that he's not a fluid runner doesn't hold any weight when there's clear visual evidence to the contrary.

And FWIW, you don't have to be the best route runner in the league when you are 6'3" 230. TO was never an awesome route runner, but he was a dominant player for other reasons. Thomas reminds me more of someone like Marshall or Fitzgerald than TO, but it's still worth pointing out that his strength and speed will help compensate for other deficiencies (which I don't personally think he has in the first place).

You are talking about clips of him in space. He is great in space. He doesn't have quick feet out of his breaks. Show me great routes in tight space. That is what he would need to do to be a threat for 100 catches a season.

In my opinion, he is much more like TO than Fitz and Marshall. A poor man's TO, and I don't say that to be insulting.

 

[thriftyrocker]

I don't have Bay Bay in my top 5 (Calvin, Green, Harvin, Julio, and Cruz, in one order or another), but agree that he simply has to be top 10 at this point. I also think that we owe McDaniels a bit of a retroactive apology: Demaryius over Dez was absolutely, positively, 100% the right move. Dez has turned out to be exactly the talented headcase everyone thought he'd be, but I imagine most franchises would far prefer the low-maintenance talent of Demaryius.

Agree with this tbh. SSOG, where do you have Nicks currently? Seems like only 18 months ago he was held in the same regard as guys like DT and Harvin are now.

Still top10, only a few slots below his peak ranking. Not a whole lot has changed. Anyone burying him, IMO, is guilty of short-term thinking.

I don't think Cruz is a top 5 WR. I think he's only ranked there due to the injury risk of a couple guys behind him. I understand he is on pace for a huge year, but I still think Nicks is better even in PPR. He's had a nice 3 week slump since returning from injury but I don't expect that to last much longer.

 

[Concept Coop]

I don't think Cruz is a top 5 WR. I think he's only ranked there due to the injury risk of a couple guys behind him. I understand he is on pace for a huge year, but I still think Nicks is better even in PPR. He's had a nice 3 week slump since returning from injury but I don't expect that to last much longer.

I've got Cruz top 5 too. Nicks opens things up for Cruz and is not a threat to his target numbers, in my opinion. Eli is like his older brother, in that he plays matchups extensively. I might be more concerned if Cruz played on the outside more, but he and Nicks have very different roles. I think this goes both ways, though. Cruz is not a threat to Nicks, either.

 

[thriftyrocker]

Nicks opens things up for Cruz and is not a threat to his target numbers, in my opinion.

I think Nicks is a threat to his RZ numbers. I agree they will both be successful but see Nicks as having more value in a "all healthy" scenario. I don't mean to split hairs though. They are both dynasty WR1s. #5 vs. #8 or 9 is not the issue. I think the main issue is I see the tier difference after Julio (and realize you disagree there too). I would not entertain any trade of giving up Julio, Green, Harvin or of course Calvin for Cruz. Favoring elite talent over elite near term utilization.I would give up Fitz, Nicks, or Thomas for Cruz in the right scenario even though I might be slightly higher on those players long term.

 

[Concept Coop]

I think Nicks is a threat to his RZ numbers. I agree they will both be successful but see Nicks as having more value in a "all healthy" scenario. I don't mean to split hairs though. They are both dynasty WR1s. #5 vs. #8 or 9 is not the issue. I think the main issue is I see the tier difference after Julio (and realize you disagree there too). I would not entertain any trade of giving up Julio, Green, Harvin or of course Calvin for Cruz. Favoring elite talent over elite near term utilization.I would give up Fitz, Nicks, or Thomas for Cruz in the right scenario even though I might be slightly higher on those players long term.

I can respect that and would better relate to that line of thinking in standard formats. But in full PPR leagues, it doesn't really scare me too much. I really like that he can play the slot and flanker spot in 2 WR sets. He can be used in bewteen where Welker and Steve Smith are. I think he can finish top 5 with 8 TDs on the year, rather than the 12+ he is on pace for now, and the 11 he was on pace for last season. I like the idea of investing in potentially the premiere slot player in the NFL, post Welker. Reception totals are less fluid.

 

[Concept Coop]

I think the main issue is I see the tier difference after Julio (and realize you disagree there too).

You know - I actually agree. I haven't done rankings/career VBD since the before the season, and had Julio a good deal higher than Cruz. I still wouldn't trade Cruz for Julio in most situations, but the tier break is not warranted. I was quick in putting the list together.

 

[hostile]

On the Matt Ryan front again...

A Matt Ryan straight up for Calvin Johnson deal went down in one of my leagues.

I had an opening offer in to him of Dalton, Lynch, either Antonio Brown or Mike Williams, and two future 1sts for Calvin/Best/QB (either Wilson or Sanchez), and the Calvin owner took the Ryan straight up deal w/o even a counter to me.

I *certainly* would have gone higher to land Calvin.

His starting RBs are P Thomas and Felix Jones with guys like Turbin, Kuhn, Ronnie Brown, Jamie Harper, and yes, Maurice Morris on his bench.

I guess if you own Ryan, sell high.

 

[Andrew74]

It might have been mentioned a few times in passing, but right now, I feel that RBs are pretty bad, not just for 2013 NFL draft, but dynasty as a whole. So many guys suck/are underperforming (CJ?K, DMC, Mathews, Charles), hurt (Murray, MJD), or aren't great PPR options (Ridley, Morris). Even Shady is underperforming relative to expectations, and Foster is currently RB1, supported by a huge number of carries. I can't really make sense of RB right now.

I forget if it was this thread or another, but I was talking about that earlier. Back in 2009, something like 12 of the top 30 RBs were 24 or older ("young"), and another 8 or so were 25-26 ("middle aged"). This year, 5 RBs are young and 10 are middle aged. In 2009, the top four fantasy backs (Rice, Peterson, Johnson, Jones-Drew) were all 24 or younger. This season, you've got Richardson, Ridley, Martin, Morris, and Murray, and everyone else worth owning is already at the peak or on the downside. And next year's draft class at RB doesn't offer a whole lot of hope. Just a really, really weak time for dynasty RBs. On the other hand, it's a great time for dynasty WRs.

So what's the play on RBs? I feel I have a pretty loaded WR corps (Green, Julio, Harvin, Cobb, D Moore, Brown, Roberts), but thin at RB (Forte, Martin, SJax, DRich, Rodgers, Vereen). I've targeted the young RBs (McCoy, TRich, Mathews) but were told they weren't for sale or the asking price was too high IMO (Harvin, Martin and 2 high 1sts for TRich). So is the play to stick with the WRs and do one's best with RBs or overpay given the dearth in the draft?